Re: Being stubborn

February 29, 2008

Hi Sue,

Boy that is a loaded question. It gets pretty easy to look at the diagnosis

to blame to behavior for all of our kids. Breezy had some real behavior

issues when she was in inclusion and it truly seemed that it was that she was

overwhelmed and her way to deal with it was to act out and then shut down. She

has learned the way to deal with things is to remove herself from it I

think. So look first at what situations trigger this action. If you can find

the

problem there will be the answer. For us it was if she was not feeling

capable to accomplish the task she balked, usually got under her desk or just

refused to move. In this space of time you will need some real good supports

from her educators. They need to be aware of what will trigger her and

intercede before the situation goes too far. I have been lucky that the school

system here has such interested and caring people. Of course it takes lots of

discussion in ARD and with the teachers, aides, and staff to get this to have a

positive outcome but the result is a child who is emotionally and physically

able to be successful.

Good luck and God Bless,

Gwen and Breezy

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February 29, 2008

In a message dated 2/29/2008 11:08:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,

mom2alyssa3@... writes:

And do you feel it's just being stubborn or part of your child's disability.

Thanks, Sue & Alyssa-MI

__________________________________________________________

I can't believe you posted this now because I am dealing with the same

issue. Just had a meeting with Micah's team and found out they did a FBA

behind

my back and implemented a BIP.(another whole story that I spent the whole

morning writing a letter to the SPed HEAD ABOUT) Micah was doing very well in

the beginning of the year and only started to have a problem in December when

his mum mum (my mother) was taken by ambulance out of our house because she

fell and broke her hip. She ended up almost died. My position is that kids

with DS do not adjust well to change and between the year getting harder and

then my mom's issue he just melted down. Micah like your Alyssa is not very

verbal and I think he gets frustrated also. I do not believe he is being

stubborn for the most part...more frustrated.

lOREE

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February 29, 2008

Hi Sue,

At different times, has gone through stubborn phases, and I do

believe that (as frustrating as it is to us and the teachers) is IS

related to her disability. Certainly all kids have stubborn moments in

life, so it's not to say kids with DS aren't stubborn at times because

they are kids :-) But, I believe much stubborn/refusal behavior IS

realted to their disability in the sense that they are developmentally

delayed (and people forget that, especially when they are around typical

peers), it can take them longer to comprehend an instruction or request

(and the adult doesn't wait long enough for them to process) and then

there is that " groove " thing, where many people with DS get into a

groove and do something a particular way... they like it that way, and

DON'T want to change it just because someone tells them to. There are

tons of other reasons, but these are a few I could think of off the top

of my head.

Causes of " stubborness " that were determined when we did 's

Behavior Support Plan last year (this was with the entire team) included

feeling the work was too hard for her, so she would refuse to start,

feeling she could not complete all of the work, so she would refuse to

even pick up her pencil, not understanding the instructions, so she

would not begin, etc. In these cases, we knew that is a

perfectionist, and if she is not confident that she can do the work

well, she won't do it. But, it comes across as " stubborn. " Also, she

has difficulty transitioning. This has gotten much better as she has

gotten older (gone are the days of the aide chasing her up and down the

playground structures in preschool, LOL) but again, she is

developmentally delayed, and this skill (along with others, of course)

takes longer for her to master. How does it appear to teachers?

Stubborn. She won't stop her free reading and move on to math when the

teacher says " time for math " because she's engaged in her book, it's a

preferred activity over math, whatever. Her typical peers may still

feel that way, but understand the consequences of not putting their book

down. For , although we can talk about consequences, give

choices, etc. when something like this happens, my point is, again, it's

realted to her disability and the developmental delay. She's acting

more appropriately for her development age, rather than her actual age.

Frustration is a huge reason for " stubborn " behavior... frustration of

not being able to do something, frustration of not being able to be

understood, frustration of not having things go your way (again,

developmental age...) You could argue that typical kids get frustrated

by all these things too, and we expect them not to act out, and this is

true. However, many kids with delays have difficulty handling and

expressing their frustrations, and one way to do that is to get the

power by acting out or refusing. We have been working very hard with

to try and get her to ask for help if needed, rather than

enter " shut down mode " as we call it. She has a note taped to her desk

that says " I need help " that she can point to and the aide is supposed

to help her. She has a list somewhere that reminds her of the ways she

can get help " ask the teacher, ask the aide, ask a classmate, etc. " We

have also found that if enters " shut down mode " then it's hard

to get her out of it without some type of break or change of situation

(which is why we've spent so much time trying to get them to identify

the beginning of shut down mode and prevent it from going there in the

first place)

I always find it interesting as we go from year to year that it is

assumed that has the change in behavior, rather that the

personality of the teacher :-) I frequently (when we are at behavior

meetings) ask why in all the years, has never ONCE refused to

do something for the Speech Thearpist. How can that be, I say? No one

will venture a guess. Well, bottom line is, they mesh very well, the

SLP can read , and will switch gears when she sees the stubborn

behavior coming.... she can prevent it by using humor (one of the best

ways to get turned around, and most teachers refuse to use

this simple trick), by quickly inserting a fun activity (even a 1 minute

activity can change everything) or just break the " shut down spiral "

before it begins because she is observant, in turn with , and

will not enter into a power struggle with her, which so many teachers

just can't do.

Good luck convincing them otherwise of something they've already decided :-(

, mom to (12), (10 DS), and Sammy (8) who is

really THE most stubborn kid I've ever met!

Sue wrote:

> Hi everyone,

> I'm Sue. Mom to Alyssa. We live in Michigan. I've been on the list

> since Lyssa was very small. I don't often post, but read everything.

> Last year, Alyssa had a BIP, but the teacher decided that it wasn't

> necessary, as she was pretty much doing what was asked. Alyssa has

> been having behavior problems in school this year-refusing to do her

> work, not listening, and sometimes, totally shutting down, refusing to

> look at, acknowledge or answer the teachers. We met to discuss her

> behaviors and start a FBA. The teachers all agreed that this behavior

> is not due to her disability, it's just her being stubborn.

> While I believe sometimes it's just her being stubborn, I told them

> that I felt it was her due to her disability. Alyssa cannot fully

> express herself, what she feels, that she doesn't understand, and I

> feel that this sometimes leads to her acting out. Also when you push

> and push her, she does just totally shut down. At home, when it gets

> to that point, I usually send her to her room. Usually 10-15 minutes

> later, she comes down, apologizes and does what you originally asked.

> The teachers believe it's too much time wasted waiting for her to come

> around. I'm just wondering how many of you have this problem with your

> child. And do you feel it's just being stubborn or part of your

> child's disability. Thanks, Sue & Alyssa-MI

>

> __________________________________________________________

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>

February 29, 2008

All kids go through " stubborn " phases, Sue. Disability has nothing to do with

it. And the brighter the kid, the more stubborn they can be! I think time out is

a good way to handle it.

Think of it this way: If parents and kids got along perfectly, the kids would

never leave home. :^)

Hang in there.

granny, been there four times

Being stubborn

>

>Hi everyone,

>I'm Sue. Mom to Alyssa. We live in Michigan. I've been on the list since Lyssa

was very small. I don't often post, but read everything. Last year, Alyssa had a

BIP, but the teacher decided that it wasn't necessary, as she was pretty much

doing what was asked. Alyssa has been having behavior problems in school this

year-refusing to do her work, not listening, and sometimes, totally shutting

down, refusing to look at, acknowledge or answer the teachers. We met to discuss

her behaviors and start a FBA. The teachers all agreed that this behavior is not

due to her disability, it's just her being stubborn.

>While I believe sometimes it's just her being stubborn, I told them that I felt

it was her due to her disability. Alyssa cannot fully express herself, what she

feels, that she doesn't understand, and I feel that this sometimes leads to her

acting out. Also when you push and push her, she does just totally shut down.

At home, when it gets to that point, I usually send her to her room. Usually

10-15 minutes later, she comes down, apologizes and does what you originally

asked. The teachers believe it's too much time wasted waiting for her to come

around. I'm just wondering how many of you have this problem with your child.

And do you feel it's just being stubborn or part of your child's disability.

Thanks, Sue & Alyssa-MI

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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>know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

>

February 29, 2008

Well, Nick can be stubborn.? Nick tends to do things when he wants to do them,

how he wants to?do them, etc., etc., but at the same time I think I can honestly

say, Nick really does want to please the adults that work with him (it just has

to be on his terms and therein lies the problem).? Yes, it would be easier for

all involved to let Nick lead, but honestly, in the real world we don't always

get to do what we want, when we want, we often have to follow someone else's

directions.

Is it part of his disability?? Not sure, but even if it is, we (those that work

with Nick and Nick) need to learn to work around it.? Can't say that at this

point (Nick's 14 turns 15 in August) we've figured it out, but we are trying.?

Need to figure out a way to get him to use his persistence for 'good not evil'

(not that refusal in and of itself is 'evil')? we also use this term when

telling Nick to use his brains for 'good not evil' as he will spend more time

and energy trying to get out of something than he would have spent had he just

done it.

Curious as to what others say.

Cari

Being stubborn

Hi everyone,

I'm Sue. Mom to Alyssa. We live in Michigan. I've been on the list since Lyssa

was very small. I don't often post, but read everything. Last year, Alyssa had a

BIP, but the teacher decided that it wasn't necessary, as she was pretty much

doing what was asked. Alyssa has been having behavior problems in school this

year-refusing to do her work, not listening, and sometimes, totally shutting

down, refusing to look at, acknowledge or answer the teachers. We met to discuss

her behaviors and start a FBA. The teachers all agreed that this behavior is not

due to her disability, it's just her being stubborn.

While I believe sometimes it's just her being stubborn, I told them that I felt

it was her due to her disability. Alyssa cannot fully express herself, what she

feels, that she doesn't understand, and I feel that this sometimes leads to her

acting out. Also when you push and push her, she does just totally shut down. At

home, when it gets to that point, I usually send her to her room. Usually 10-15

minutes later, she comes down, apologizes and does what you originally asked.

The teachers believe it's too much time wasted waiting for her to come around.

I'm just wondering how many of you have this problem with your child. And do you

feel it's just being stubborn or part of your child's disability. Thanks, Sue &

Alyssa-MI

__________________________________________________________

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February 29, 2008

Hi

My Nick (ds) is 19yrs and what you are describing is what my Nick does

also. He has been diagnosed with mini seizures and is on Depakote and it

also alters his mood swings. But he still has his stubborn moments. I too

give him time outs but I know at school they have no time for this. But I

know it comes from not being able to express himself. I have tried

everything from positive reinforcements to taking away his favorite thing at

the time. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

I have to give myself time out too! :-)

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf

Of CMancari@...

Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:01 PM

mom2alyssa3@...;

Subject: Re: Being stubborn

Well, Nick can be stubborn.? Nick tends to do things when he wants to do

them, how he wants to?do them, etc., etc., but at the same time I think I

can honestly say, Nick really does want to please the adults that work with

him (it just has to be on his terms and therein lies the problem).? Yes, it

would be easier for all involved to let Nick lead, but honestly, in the real

world we don't always get to do what we want, when we want, we often have to

follow someone else's directions.

Is it part of his disability?? Not sure, but even if it is, we (those that

work with Nick and Nick) need to learn to work around it.? Can't say that at

this point (Nick's 14 turns 15 in August) we've figured it out, but we are

trying.? Need to figure out a way to get him to use his persistence for

'good not evil' (not that refusal in and of itself is 'evil')? we also use

this term when telling Nick to use his brains for 'good not evil' as he will

spend more time and energy trying to get out of something than he would have

spent had he just done it.

Curious as to what others say.

Cari

Being stubborn

Hi everyone,

I'm Sue. Mom to Alyssa. We live in Michigan. I've been on the list since

Lyssa was very small. I don't often post, but read everything. Last year,

Alyssa had a BIP, but the teacher decided that it wasn't necessary, as she

was pretty much doing what was asked. Alyssa has been having behavior

problems in school this year-refusing to do her work, not listening, and

sometimes, totally shutting down, refusing to look at, acknowledge or answer

the teachers. We met to discuss her behaviors and start a FBA. The teachers

all agreed that this behavior is not due to her disability, it's just her

being stubborn.

While I believe sometimes it's just her being stubborn, I told them that I

felt it was her due to her disability. Alyssa cannot fully express herself,

what she feels, that she doesn't understand, and I feel that this sometimes

leads to her acting out. Also when you push and push her, she does just

totally shut down. At home, when it gets to that point, I usually send her

to her room. Usually 10-15 minutes later, she comes down, apologizes and

does what you originally asked. The teachers believe it's too much time

wasted waiting for her to come around. I'm just wondering how many of you

have this problem with your child. And do you feel it's just being stubborn

or part of your child's disability. Thanks, Sue & Alyssa-MI

__________________________________________________________

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March 1, 2008

My son is always loving the cats or giving them to someone to hold.

Jeannette

Meddle not in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good

With ketchup!

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March 1, 2008

HI Sue

Didn't we decide years ago (around the WV picnic time) that Alyssa was so much

like Sara ....... well I wrote your same post years ago heehee here we are years

later and yes Alyssa is soooooo much like Sara good thing though at 16 the

rebellion is so age appropriate and easier to deal with.

When Sara was younger we decided she had tooooooooo many chiefs in her life and

she had so little choice. A very good friend of mine who is a early intervention

Sped teacher told me to start letting Sara have more choices. So if I wanted

Sara to clean her room I would say " Sara do you want to pick up your room or set

the table for dinner first? " both needed to be done by her but in giving her a

choice as to what to do first she had some control. After a few months of this

most of the rebellion stopped. As her mom I had to think quick and be very

creative. My mom called it manipulation and said it worked great when she was

raising me lol who knew

I shared this with school and her behavior at school also improved. One thing

they did at school when Sara did not want to transition well to classes was let

her walk backward to class. She had a blast doing this and her transtions went a

lot smoother (mind you she only walked backwards a few times) The only thing

with Sara was she would catch on quick so like I said we had to be creative and

changes things up often.

Have you posted any new pics on the web-site ............ I need to go there and

see all of these now almost teens ............. I want to check on Di's son too

he was a little one.

Kathy mom to Sara 16 ............. if you ever get stuck on ideas just holler

-------------- Original message --------------

From: Sue <mom2alyssa3@...>

Hi ,

Yes, Alyssa is 11, and starting to develop, something else to deal with.

I know that sometimes she is just trying to do things her way and I understand

that she is just being stubborn or maybe just wants some control of her life

instead of always being told what to do. But I know here at home there are times

that the more I push her to do what I'm telling her, the more she shuts down.

She won't respond, she won't look at me, she won't move, nothing. At those

times, like many of us parents, I've learned to give her (and me) some space. I

usually send her to her room, where she chills. The battle between us was going

no where, with no one getting what they wanted. So why keep it up? It's just

aggravating me and her. She will usually come downstairs after as little as 10

minutes, sometimes it does take longer, and apologize and do what was asked.

That's why we jokingly call her Sybil. She can totally change her personality

and mood. It's like it never happened. She is so anxious to please and refuses

to think about what just

happened with the confrontation, she just does what was asked. It can be

something as simple as eating dinner, cleaning her room or finishing her

homework. While I understand the school's position, they are wasting time

waiting for her to come around, I also know that not everything is pushed to

that point. She may be resistant but sometimes she comes around quicker than

others. On those more resistant times, she needs to have time to chill. I tried

to explain this and was met with, " that is wasting time that could be used for

her education. " Well, better to give her the time to regroup, than to have every

confrontation end in wasting educational time. Our FBA was conducted a month

ago, I'm still waiting to see and sign the BIP. Now that her IEP is coming up,

I'm sure they'll use this to their advantage. I just needed to know other's

opinions so I could know whether I was way off base in my thinking or if maybe

the school is just wanting her to comply

with no regard to her disability. Thanks everyone!

__________________________________________________________

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March 1, 2008

We have 2 cats and they both love but one is his and one is

mine. He doesn't pick them up and carry them around but the bigger one weighs

over 15 lbs so he's an armful. But Misty, his cat, follows him around and

sleeps with him a lot of the time, you can see the love in her eyes when she

looks at him. We have always had pets his whole life but now we are down to 2

cats. I'd like to have a dog too but is very set against it. He had

his dog who died many years ago and he doesn't want another one. He loves his

sister's dogs but still doesn't want one. The funny thing is he is afraid of

little dogs but doesn't mind these 2 big ones. Jessie

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March 1, 2008

Maybe this is why carries the cat around the house. The poor

cat will be peacefully sleeping, and she will pick her up, take her to

another room and say " here you go kitty " . Or, she will take her to

someone and say " Hey, have you seen the kitty? Look, here's the

kitty! " It's not like she does anything for the cat's sake, but she

certainly likes to have control over the cat, her location, and her

ability to sleep during the day. Fortunately, she's a pretty mellow

kitten, and she tolerates being bossed around pretty well. We will ask

" why are you bring the cat in here? " and she'll say " I don't

know " and smile... it's pretty funny, actually.

, mom to (12), (10 DS), and Sammy (8)

K Gain wrote:

> Amen to the choices!

>

> If given the opportunity, Noah will lead the dog around by his collar for

> hours...(This is why our dog rarely wears his collar, otherwise he'd

> never

> get a rest!) I think it's because it's one thing that Noah has complete

> control over. The dog goes wherever he says, and that is POWER!

>

> Karla in Texas

> Re: Being stubborn

>

> > Our guys have so few choices in life and it can be frustrating. I've

> dealt

> > with this by allowing to make as many choices as possible, as

> long

> > as it does not harm her or others. For example, she can choose what she

> > wants to wear as long as it's weather appropriate. Had to grit my teeth

> > when she went through a Lauper phase. I asked her why she dressed

> > like that and she said, " Because I'm a strange woman. " LOL.

> >

> > gets $20 per month to spend any way she chooses. Her room is

> > painted in the colors of her choosing. She decorates it and keeps it

> clean

> > to suit herself and no one else.

> >

> > It can be hard sometimes. Even embarrassing. But allowing them to make

> > choices when it really does no harm is one way of dealing with the

> > situation.

> >

> > granny

> >

>

March 1, 2008

Lol - Trent will insist on moving the cat as well generally giving him to

someone else to hold, or taking him to another room to sleep. Most

mornings, he will take the cat to the toilet with him.

Keep smiling

Jan, mother of Trent 23yo w/DS from the LandDownUnder