Re: Re: Inclusion question

[Guest guest]

My daughter (, 14) is in a mixed curriculum setting for 8th grade -

Inclusion for Social Studies, Science, and all Related Arts (PE, Art, Music,

Health, Home Ec, Shop) pullout to a Resource Room for individual instruction

in English, Reading & Math.

She reads at roughly the first grade level.

- Becky

In a message dated 7/27/2006 6:56:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Loree5@... writes:

Here is my question for everyone. For those of you whose children are

included in regular education classes, how far behind their peers would you

say

they are. Micah is at a pre-school level still learning his numbers and

alphabet and some sight words in kindy, but socially he is doing really

well. I

hear some of you speak about your kids in school and they sound like they

are

not that far behind. For me, it doesn't matter because my ideal is to

assimilate Micah into his community and if he is reading at a 1st grade

level in the

4th or 5th grade...so be it. I just wondered how your kids were doing and

how you all feel about this.

Loree

[Guest guest]

Loree,

Mav is very far behind his typical peers. That is not an issue.

Socially he is more advanced. And athletically.. He is WAY advanced. LOL.

" Regardless of how good of a swim instructor you are, you can't teach a

person to swim in the parking lot of a swimming pool. "

Norman Kunc

[Guest guest]

Mac is going into 3rd grade and, in my mind, he's not THAT far behind...but, I

know, in reality, and the teachers tell me continually, that he really is much

more like a K or early 1st grade kid than a 3rd grader. I don't judge how he's

doing based on what the typical kids are doing...I base it on him...is he

learning, is he making progress, is he happy and social and an active part of

the classroom? The answer to all of those things are " yes " and much of what he

has learned, academically, has had NOTHING to do with his IEP goals/objectives

or the amount of time he's spent 1:1/small group in the resource room (30 min.

per day)--the majority of what he's learned he's learned from being IN the

general ed classroom and being exposed to the general curriculum. I'm often

surprised at what he's learned--just from being there--not that anyone has spent

extra time with him teaching him--he's just picked it up. For example, being

able to identify CA, OH and FL on a map, singing " The Star Spangled Banner " ,

knowing that fish have scales, bears have fur and birds have feathers, indians

may live in a mud hut, etc.... I agree with you, even if he's reading at a 1st

grade level, he should be able to be a part of the general ed

classroom/curriculum with adaptations and support---especially during the

elementary years.

Jill

Mom to Mac & Kit

Re: Inclusion question

Here is my question for everyone. For those of you whose children are

included in regular education classes, how far behind their peers would you

say

they are. Micah is at a pre-school level still learning his numbers and

alphabet and some sight words in kindy, but socially he is doing really well.

I

hear some of you speak about your kids in school and they sound like they are

not that far behind. For me, it doesn't matter because my ideal is to

assimilate Micah into his community and if he is reading at a 1st grade level

in the

4th or 5th grade...so be it. I just wondered how your kids were doing and

how you all feel about this.

Loree

[Guest guest]

Ciarra is going into 2nd grade this year. She turned 8 a few weeks ago.

We had her repeat Kindergarten, because we felt it was the best

foundation for her. Most kids around here don't start K until they are

6, so they are generally 8-9 in 2nd grade. So age wise she fits right

in. She is still physically pretty small, but catching up a bit.

Academically, she is doing late first grade/early 2nd grade work in most

things, with some scattered abilities. Her reading is late 2nd grade,

but reading is a huge strength for her. Math is hard in many cases, but

she has been doing fractions (they are VISUAL) and she loves to do them.

Self help skills are approx 8-9 yrs, another strength. Some things go

over her head, some she gets. Socially, she does very well, lots of

friends and playdates. Emotionally, she is very secure, but on the

younger side. She plays sports with the typical kids and loves it. She

rides the reg bus, and waits at the bus stop without me. We are enjoying

inclusion for her. But when/if the time comes that it isnt the best

thing for her, we will reconsider. Whatever she needs is what we will

do.

[Guest guest]

Loree,

is a couple of years behind in school work, but socially maybe just a

little behind his peers...well, except for attention span. He is WAY behind

in that!

Kym...mom to 5 including (9ds)

[Guest guest]

It depends on the child and the subject. More concrete concept subjects

like science tend to be easier for Jess to understand and learn - partly

because the accommodations are easier for teachers to create and implement.

; ) But a really good teacher who really gets the subject can do wonders

even with a less concrete subject. I worry less that she is at " grade

level " than that she is learning the gist of the subject and especially

concepts and skills that will help her to continue to learn and be able to

do what she wants/ needs to in the future and that she is participating

meaningfully in the class.

Judi

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf

Of Loree5@...

Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 6:56 PM

Subject: Re: Inclusion question

Here is my question for everyone. For those of you whose children are

included in regular education classes, how far behind their peers would you

say

they are. Micah is at a pre-school level still learning his numbers and

alphabet and some sight words in kindy, but socially he is doing really

well. I

hear some of you speak about your kids in school and they sound like they

are

not that far behind. For me, it doesn't matter because my ideal is to

assimilate Micah into his community and if he is reading at a 1st grade

level in the

4th or 5th grade...so be it. I just wondered how your kids were doing and

how you all feel about this.

Loree

[Guest guest]

just finished 2nd grade, and our report cards give a score of

1-6, with 4 being " met grade level standards " , 5 or 6 " above grade

level " and 1, 2 or 3 below grade level. Ideally, by the time a student

reaches the end of the school year, everything should be at 4 or higher

(and I think these are the minimun standards, since my other two

tyically come home filled with 5s and 6s). Each main area (e.g.

reading, writing, math) is broken down into several subsections.

received a 4 in " word analysis " (part of reading), a 4 in

" writing applications " , and a 4 in Number sense and operations " (solving

simple math problems). Other sub areas of reading, writing and math she

got 3's in. So overall, she met 1/2 of the Reading, 1/3 of the Writing,

and 1/5 of the Math standards for grade 2. We are very pleased, and if

you remember our struggles this year with modifications and

accomodations (or lack thereof until the end of the year!) this teacher

didn't budge when it came to testing and grading! I don't know if you

are at a 3 where that puts you, but hopefully it's somewhere in 1st or

2nd grade level. We were also pleased to see her social skills/work

habits section was all passing, either with a check or a plus, which to

me really shows that inclusion is working for her.... things like

" demonstrates self control " , " works without disturbing others " , " follows

directions " and " cooperates with others " . I think if she were

frustrated or unhappy, we would see problems here as well.

I know that she will keep getting further and further behind her peers

academically, but as long as she's learning academics and growing

socially, we'll stay the course. Certainly her constant interaction

with her typical peers has contributed to her social skills and

wonderful language abilities. I wonder if she were not included if she

would be as comfortable as she is at Sammy soccer game, or on the

playground, to approach another child about her age and say " Hi, my name

is ...... what's your name? " and then try and get that child to

play something. She certainly has wonderful role models in so many ways

in her typical peers.

I wish for her sake that school was easier for her, but she's happy

where she is, and I just don't dwell on the numbers too much...... I can

see that she's learning, so that's what's important. This was her best

year ever academically (lots more 1s and 2s last year), but I know that

at least here, the " odd " grades tend to focus on learning more new

material, and the " even " grades learn less new material and more

elaborate and build on some of the concepts the already know. For

example, in 1st grade, you need to learn addition and subtraction (if

you didn't get it in kinder), you learn place value (ones and tens) you

learn basic fractions (1/2, 1/4), etc. In 2nd grade, you do addition

and subtraction with 2 digit numbers (using your knowledge of addition

and place value, which then leads to borrowing and carrying). But, the

concept isn't new, you are building on it. Same with fractions. You

have already been taught about fractions in 1st grade, but now you have

to take that to do more complex fraction problems, like figure out that

if 2/4 ro 4/8 of the box are shaded, that's the same as 1/2. I had been

told this (even vs odd years), but it was really easy to see last year

with a 1st and a 2nd grader! So, we're in for the " hard " year......glad

we're relaxing this summer, LOL!

, mom to (10), (8 DS), and Sammy (6)

Loree5@... wrote:

> Here is my question for everyone. For those of you whose children are

> included in regular education classes, how far behind their peers

> would you say

> they are. Micah is at a pre-school level still learning his numbers and

> alphabet and some sight words in kindy, but socially he is doing

> really well. I

> hear some of you speak about your kids in school and they sound like

> they are

> not that far behind. For me, it doesn't matter because my ideal is to

> assimilate Micah into his community and if he is reading at a 1st

> grade level in the

> 4th or 5th grade...so be it. I just wondered how your kids were doing and

> how you all feel about this.

>

> Loree

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/27/2006 7:02:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

michdock@... writes:

Loree,

Mav is very far behind his typical peers. That is not an issue.

Socially he is more advanced. And athletically.. He is WAY advanced. LOL.

Yay!!! He sounds just like Micah!!! Athletically he got all on grade level

in gym and that is one of the things they fought me on. Said he could not

be in a regular gym class and it is his strongest area!!! Special Olympics

here we come.

Loree

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/27/2006 7:54:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

thrill@... writes:

and much of what he has learned, academically, has had NOTHING to do with

his IEP goals/objectives or the amount of time he's spent 1:1/small g

I so agree with you and even in what would seem smaller areas to some.

Micah drank water and ate gummy bears this year because his peers were!! That

is

HUGE when your child is only eating a few things and you could never get him

to drink plain water no matter how much you cut the juice with it lol!! He

is also learning academically through watching his peers. The incidental

learning is huge and I so totally agree with you.

Loree

[Guest guest]

was in inclusion from 1st thru 8th grade and in some sort of

inclusion in HS. But in the early grades, her academics were a little behind

grade

level, but not that much behind others who struggled in the class. Since

there were at least 6 kids with spec needs in her inclusion model, they always

had each other as support.

Some of the general ed kids also struggled and were included at times with

them. But she was part of her classes always and when you walked into her

classrooms, one never knew who were the kids with disabilities and who werent.

We were fortunate to have a true inclusion model.

And can read at least a 4th grade level, sometimes higher. She can

write very well and still today does not know that there are 4 quarters in a

dollar, but she can do functional math with lots of support- she can add,

subtract, multiply by 2's, 3's, 5's and 10's, but does always have to start

from

the beginning in math and cannot do any math in her head.

Socially, it wasn't a problem until Middle School, where I started to notice

a difference- although all middle schoolers are socially immature (lol). I

still advocate a mix of activities that are inclusive and where she is just

with special needs kids like her Saturday program or camp (but she is

mainstreamed there.)

Loree, you have at least 6 years to worry about all that- so for now, relax

and enjoy all of Michas abilities!

[Guest guest]

Sounds like you had a good situation for . We are unfortunate that

Maverick is the only student with disabilities who is included in our

district. Any of the other students with sp needs are only included for

electives, and even then there are certain electives that students with sp

needs are allowed (encouraged?) to take. As a group. With the aide. In

the back of the classroom.

Maverick was in an " Integrated Science " class last year. There were 20

students, 10 typically learning and 10 with IEP's. It was team taught with

a sp Ed and reg Ed teacher. We were really excited about that .. It was

what we feel inclusion SHOULD be. Unfortunately, the other students were

either Emotionally Handicapped or slightly Learning Disabled (love those

labels) so it wasn't what we really needed for Mav. The science teachers

idea of accommodating work was to give Maverick the test of 35 questions

that the rest of the class was taking, but having him do only 25 of the

questions.

" Regardless of how good of a swim instructor you are, you can't teach a

person to swim in the parking lot of a swimming pool. "

Norman Kunc

[Guest guest]

anyone have any info on how to change work from middle school level to

functional level for about a 1st grade level?

you see, that's why they tell me Jasmine can't be in reg. middle school

classes, because the work is so far above her level, and comprehension, that she

would be just sitting there with no idea what is going on.

any help would be appreciated.

Toni-mom to Jasmine-now 15!!!

[Guest guest]

For Science & Soc studies I go to teaching supply stores and buy workbooks

on the 3rd grade level (Science and Soc Studues curriculum tends to repeat

itself every 3 years!) I've actually had middle school teachers copy pages

from

the workbooks I've sent in and passed out copies to the rest of the class.

Also look at the DK (Dorling Kindersley) books. Great for sharing at school!

Where do you live? If you are anywhere near So. Cal there is a professor at

Cal State Northridge (Dd. June Downing) who is an absolute genius at adapting

curriculum.

As for " too far apart " - that argument is ridiculous. I've seen kids

included in HS who were still functioning at grade 1 -2 .

- Becky

In a message dated 7/29/2006 9:51:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,

Reguezrod@... writes:

anyone have any info on how to change work from middle school level to

functional level for about a 1st grade level?

you see, that's why they tell me Jasmine can't be in reg. middle school

classes, because the work is so far above her level, and comprehension, that

she

would be just sitting there with no idea what is going on.

any help would be appreciated.

Toni-mom to Jasmine-now 15!!!

[Guest guest]

<< the work is so far above her level, and comprehension, that she

would be just sitting there with no idea what is going on>>

If the school provides appropriate accommodations, her individual learning

style is supported, and the grade level curriculum is adapted to her

abilities and needs, that won't be happening.

Judi

[Guest guest]

I recommend that you get a copy of your State Educational Standards. You

can either get one online or get one from your state department of Ed. It

tells you what the children should be working on in each grade level. You

then can take the 8th grade standards for science (for example) and the 1st

or 2nd grade standards..what ever level your child is working at..and fit it

into the science class. A sp Ed teacher (Not in our school..LOL) has also

been helping me adapt the homework that Maverick brings home. Some of the

teachers had a very HARD time figuring out how to make it at his level. BUT

there are pages that give work to support the standards..I'll use Science

again. In 1st grade..children learn about liquid, gasses, and solids. In

8th grade..they learn about them in more detail. SO, you go to the 1st

grade standards and get science work or experiments that are at that level

but on the same subject matter. Another great resource for science is the

ZOOM website. (Can you tell science was a challenge for us this year?)

I also got a lot of work books and sent them in for math and stuff. AND I

got a lot of ideas from other parents. There are so many ways if you just

start to think OUTSIDE the box..it really flows easily. Another example is

when the kids in 7th grade had to memorize all of the presidents. Maverick

had to memorize the ones on MONEY (bills). He ended up learning more

(incidental learning) but got tested only on the ones he HAD to know. When

the kids had to write president reports..or state reports, or country

reports... Maverick did his on a poster board. We would research 6 facts

about Washington and find pictures and write a simple sentence about

each picture. Maverick would have to stand in front of the class and tell

about each picture/fact.

I can give you more ideas off the list, but it is SO doable. Even fun once

you get started!

" Regardless of how good of a swim instructor you are, you can't teach a

person to swim in the parking lot of a swimming pool. "

Norman Kunc

[Guest guest]

We've done reports using Power Point. has speech apraxia, so giving

an oral report isn't practical. We get a class volunteer to read the

information on the Power Point while clicks through the slides.

Also in middle school, group projects are popular. participates by

holding up the groupdisplay and pointing to relevant parts.

- Becky

In a message dated 7/30/2006 12:37:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,

Michdock@... writes:

When

the kids had to write president reports..or state reports, or country

reports... Maverick did his on a poster board.

[Guest guest]

Specifically ask for PECS (Picture Exchange Communication Sysytem)

its the picture system used with non-verbal autistic kids, and other people

with communication issues. It can be modified to whatever the specific

student's needs are. Sometimes using a formal program name when you ask for an

accomodation gets you better results.

- Becky

In a message dated 7/30/2006 10:49:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,

michdock@... writes:

We also wrote a goal that each teacher will have a visual schedule of what

is to be done in that classroom for him. Just a 4 to 6 step visual aide. It

made a big difference in the way they approached him and the way he

responded.

[Guest guest]

Do you use Edmark?

- Becky

In a message dated 7/30/2006 12:51:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,

michdock@... writes:

We used pictures when Maverick was younger, but now that he reads we write

sentences. He really picks up words that he is taught (sight) very well. He

doesn't do phonics well at all.

[Guest guest]

Yes, Maverick also has apraxia and uses an aug com. We have that written

into his IEP. That was another challenge, getting the teachers to use the

talker. We finally had them all write a goal using the talker for his IEP.

Sad that we had to go that far, but it worked. We also wrote a goal that

each teacher will have a visual schedule of what is to be done in that

classroom for him. Just a 4 to 6 step visual aide. It made a big

difference in the way they approached him and the way he responded.

" Regardless of how good of a swim instructor you are, you can't teach a

person to swim in the parking lot of a swimming pool. "

Norman Kunc

[Guest guest]

Talk to someone with training in or Orton Gillingham or at any school

that focuses on dylexic students and ask if there is such a thing as " too

late " to learn phonics.

Bring one of those experts in teaching dylexics to your next IEP meeting and

let them go toe-to-toe with the people in your school.

- Becky

In a message dated 7/30/2006 4:04:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Michdock@... writes:

Mav finished Edmark 1 & 2. He is almost through the " functional " lists that

that sp Ed teacher feels are so important. He learns whatever words they

are studying in the classes.. His " incidental learning. "

We have been fighting for years for them to start him on a phonics program

and now they are telling me it's too late.

[Guest guest]

We used pictures when Maverick was younger, but now that he reads we write

sentences. He really picks up words that he is taught (sight) very well.

He doesn't do phonics well at all.

He surprises us with some of the words he learns. Last night he showed me a

map and told me he wanted to go " THERE. " I asked where THERE was and he

told me " Hollywood " , which is where he was pointing. I said, " You want to

go to Hollywood? " And he replied, " Yes, to see Zach and Cody! " (He has

changed his name to Zack and his brothers name to Cody from the Disney show

The Suite Life of Zach and Cody.)

" Regardless of how good of a swim instructor you are, you can't teach a

person to swim in the parking lot of a swimming pool. "

Norman Kunc

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/30/2006 4:05:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

Michdock@... writes:

We have been fighting for years for them to start him on a phonics program

and now they are telling me it's too late.

BOY DOES THAT NOT JUST FIGURE!!!!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/30/2006 1:36:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

Michdock@... writes:

he wanted to go " THERE. " I asked where THERE was and he

told me " Hollywood " , which is where he was pointing. I said, " You want to

go to Hollywood? " And he replied, " Yes, to see Zach and Cody! " (He has

changed his name to Zack and his brothers name to Cody from the Disney show

The Suite Life of Zach and Cody.)

,

Nick likes Zack and Cody too, and often does the changing of brothers' name

(fortunately, the youngest is named Zack so either he will pretend to be

Cody or change 's name to Cody). The boys (all three of them) have

been

pushing me to buy Danimals yogurt (so they can win the trip to Hollywood and

see Zack & Cody in person).

Cari

[Guest guest]

Mav finished Edmark 1 & 2. He is almost through the " functional " lists that

that sp Ed teacher feels are so important. He learns whatever words they

are studying in the classes.. His " incidental learning. "

We have been fighting for years for them to start him on a phonics program

and now they are telling me it's too late.

" Regardless of how good of a swim instructor you are, you can't teach a

person to swim in the parking lot of a swimming pool. "

Norman Kunc

[Guest guest]

We just got back from a trip to Disneyland where the boys were very

disappointed not to have met Zach and Cody and Hillary Duff. Mav kept

asking everyone who worked there where they were and they told him they were

in Chicago at the Tipton Motel. LOL. He got the Disney ears and had Zach

put on them.

Last week, we went to sign the petition to adopt 2 kids. We were filling

out the forms and writing down what their new names were going to be and Mav

told the lawyer to make Mykel's name Cody and that he wanted to change his

to Zach. He has half of the community calling him Zach. I am working on

trying to get him to realize that when we go to court he can NOT tell the

judge that his brother's name is Cody and his name is Zach!

" Regardless of how good of a swim instructor you are, you can't teach a

person to swim in the parking lot of a swimming pool. "

Norman Kunc