Re: personal reflection...don't hate me!

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

Very well said and very true. I have been a general ed teacher for 19 years

and have had special needs kids in my classes always. Sometimes I have to beg

to even see an IEP. With LRE, and more special needs kids mainstreamed,

included, etc into the classroom, a teacher alone with all her kids does need

extra support.

This year I am mentoring new teachers and what they teach run the gammit.

Within the region I am working, inclusion is defined about 8 different ways.

This week I saw this for the 1st time- a gen ed teacher working on changing her

license to spec ed as a CTT (Collaborative Team Teacher) working with both 2nd

and 5th grades! That is ludcrious and probably illegal.

I have to say, I have been lucky with 's education- true

inclusion/collaborative team teaching from 1st grade to 8th. One general ed

teacher one

special ed teacher and one or more paras for each class or subject. Her

education experience has been awesome and it works much better when the

operative

word- collaborative is really functional. My son, non DS was in an inclusion

class as a general ed student and his team was awesome and it was his best

academic year so far. But these teachers we've had had lots of training and

were

open to learning more and working with families.

I have to say- it is a shame what is happening in NYC cuz they are desperate

for teachers that they will hire anyone with or without the correct licensing

or training- to both special needs and general ed students. NCLB is bullcrap

as Jackie said (only I would use a different work here) and is a total

injustice to our kids and us who are trying to provide a decent education for

our

kids.

Now- inclusion in HS- whole 'nother email!

*No disclaimer- I love all teachers when they treat my kids well, I love all

students with or without special needs and education is one damn hard

profession-regardless of what some people think!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/2005 9:52:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

linman42@... writes:

Now- inclusion in HS- whole 'nother email!

This is my experience....does not mean it happens in all classes with all

teachers (my disclaimer)

THat just doesn't happen LOL. Not only is it another email it probably does

not exist.

personally I find it is the regular ed teachers that don't have a clue.

Sorry reg ed teachers. They want the class to be exactly as it always is. The

para is not allowed to sit near the student because she might try to talk to

them and explain stuff or use the modifications made for the student in the

class.Teachers attitude " There shall be no teacher but me in this class " My

sons

8th grade English teacher came up to me and said " he just doesn't GET 8th

grade English " I told her he wasn't supposed to that is not why he was in her

class. I had begged that he not get this teacher but I believe I was being

punished so they changed him into her class 2 weeks before school started. I did

remove him from that class the next day and he had a reading teacher 1 on 1

instead.

I believe all students and teachers would benefit from having an inclusion

specialist come in and work with both reg and sped teachers to make it work for

the student.

Jean

[Guest guest]

This is the way I see it try to work. The Sped teacher works with the para.

The para tries to make it work in the reg class room . The regular fights it.

So it doesn't happen. The para brings all the class notes, homework

assignments and such to the Sped and she adapts and the regular ed teacher says

NO

WAY, not acceptable. The student falls asleep during class because lecturing is

boring and they are not engaged. thus making the regular ed teacher upset

because she has a kid sleeping and not paying attention. Sigh. I think they

need

to have Co Teachers in all classrooms. Then everyone can learn by their

style. Visual students and verbal students.

We have some classes with Co teachers... They are regualr ed and special ed

teaching together. One happy family NOT they can't stand each other and feel

like the other is trying to take over and so on and so on......

Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/2005 10:13:31 PM Central Standard Time,

jbocci55@... writes:

So I guess we need to diagnose who is dropping the ball......the special ed

people or the regular ed teachers...........in my case, it's been the special

ed.......(ahem) professionals.

Jackie

HI

In the past I've had both scenarios, some Reg Ed teachers who made the game

so hard for everyone and other years with Sped teachers who took total

possession of my child (and wouldn't share lol) ....... this year I have NO IDEA

what's going on. I do know everyone wants her

I also want to say in all of my research of the areas Ive lived in Reg Ed

teachers have had NO training in modifications or mainstreaming of any kind. My

sister while getting her masters had one course on Inclusion, I don't think

she paid much attention though since she is a math teacher and most labels go

to Resource for math instead of staying with her but she did give me her

college text book and I refer to it often ........... she can always get it

back

too if she ever gets a child with special needs in one of her classes

(Algebra)

Kathy mom to Sara 13

¸...¸ ___/ /\ \___ ¸...¸

,·´º o`·, /__/ _/\_ \__\ ,·´º o`·,

```)¨(´´´ | | | | | | | | | ```)¨(´´´

¸,.-·²°´ ¸,.-·~·~·-.,¸ `°²·-.¸

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Josh. 24:15

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/2005 9:49:35 PM Central Standard Time,

Michdock@... writes:

My impression of inclusion over the years is that it is the special

education teacher who provides the plan to the regular ed teacher with the

adaptations or accomodations for the special needs student. It then becomes

the regular ed teacher's resposibility to make sure the plan is carried out

within his/her classroom......WITH THE HELP OF THE SPECIAL ED DEPT.

HI

This was Sara's year last year, we were blessed with an awesome Sped teacher

and Reg Ed teachers who feared me lol (Reputation from Elem. years followed

me to Middle school lol)

Kathy mom to Sara 13

¸...¸ ___/ /\ \___ ¸...¸

,·´º o`·, /__/ _/\_ \__\ ,·´º o`·,

```)¨(´´´ | | | | | | | | | ```)¨(´´´

¸,.-·²°´ ¸,.-·~·~·-.,¸ `°²·-.¸

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Josh. 24:15

[Guest guest]

" My impression of inclusion over the years is that it is the special

education teacher who provides the plan to the regular ed teacher with the

adaptations or accomodations for the special needs student. It then becomes

the regular ed teacher's resposibility to make sure the plan is carried out

within his/her classroom......WITH THE HELP OF THE SPECIAL ED DEPT. "

This seems to be VERY true... My Nic has had some wonderful sp ed teachers

AND reg ed teachers the last 3 years - I've loved them all and still am VERY

friendly with them when I come to school. That being said, this is the

first year (5th grade) that Nic has been in the reg ed classroom with

adapted curriculum at least 80% of the day. This is in BIG part because

his current SP ed teacher expects MORE from Nic, and pushes him to at least

try things. HER goal is to see Nic in the classroom all day by the end of

the first semester so we can spend second semester preparing for middle

school. The SP ed teacher and his reg ed teacher work very closely together

on a daily basis with his 1:1 aides and they are constantly tweaking his

program... But obviously by the posts we've seen since the beginning of the

year, I'm very lucky. That being said, Nic comes home 15 minutes before

school lets out, and when I asked it was explained to me that it was " more

convenient for the mini bus driver " - so I do have a fight for our 10/4

iep... I think that is just plain silly.

Sandy Love

PS - I don't hate you!

[Guest guest]

Bridget has had some spec ed teachers that have no clue and want the class to be

exactly as it has always been and the students to adapt. What a farce!!!!

Aren't these students in this class because they cannot adapt!!!

mom to Bridget 12

Re: personal reflection...don't hate me!

In a message dated 9/22/2005 9:52:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

linman42@... writes:

Now- inclusion in HS- whole 'nother email!

This is my experience....does not mean it happens in all classes with all

teachers (my disclaimer)

THat just doesn't happen LOL. Not only is it another email it probably does

not exist.

personally I find it is the regular ed teachers that don't have a clue.

Sorry reg ed teachers. They want the class to be exactly as it always is. The

para is not allowed to sit near the student because she might try to talk to

them and explain stuff or use the modifications made for the student in the

class.Teachers attitude " There shall be no teacher but me in this class " My

sons

8th grade English teacher came up to me and said " he just doesn't GET 8th

grade English " I told her he wasn't supposed to that is not why he was in her

class. I had begged that he not get this teacher but I believe I was being

punished so they changed him into her class 2 weeks before school started. I

did

remove him from that class the next day and he had a reading teacher 1 on 1

instead.

I believe all students and teachers would benefit from having an inclusion

specialist come in and work with both reg and sped teachers to make it work

for

the student.

Jean

[Guest guest]

My impression of inclusion over the years is that it is the special

education teacher who provides the plan to the regular ed teacher with the

adaptations or accomodations for the special needs student. It then becomes

the regular ed teacher's resposibility to make sure the plan is carried out

within his/her classroom......WITH THE HELP OF THE SPECIAL ED DEPT.

********************************************************************************\

***

Wouldn't that be wonderful if it really worked that way??

M.

[Guest guest]

So I guess we need to diagnose who is dropping the ball......the special ed

people or the regular ed teachers...........in my case, it's been the special

ed.......(ahem) professionals.

Jackie

-------------- Original message --------------

> My impression of inclusion over the years is that it is the special

> education teacher who provides the plan to the regular ed teacher with the

> adaptations or accomodations for the special needs student. It then becomes

> the regular ed teacher's resposibility to make sure the plan is carried out

> within his/her classroom......WITH THE HELP OF THE SPECIAL ED DEPT.

>

********************************************************************************

> ***

> Wouldn't that be wonderful if it really worked that way??

>

> M.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Co-teaching gets my vote!

Jackie

-------------- Original message --------------

This is the way I see it try to work. The Sped teacher works with the para. The

para tries to make it work in the reg class room . The regular fights it. So it

doesn't happen. The para brings all the class notes, homework assignments and

such to the Sped and she adapts and the regular ed teacher says NO WAY, not

acceptable. The student falls asleep during class because lecturing is boring

and they are not engaged. thus making the regular ed teacher upset because she

has a kid sleeping and not paying attention. Sigh. I think they need to have Co

Teachers in all classrooms. Then everyone can learn by their style. Visual

students and verbal students.

We have some classes with Co teachers... They are regualr ed and special ed

teaching together. One happy family NOT they can't stand each other and feel

like the other is trying to take over and so on and so on......

Jean

[Guest guest]

Oh, I think we should blame the parents. After all, if they didn't want their

kids where they didn't belong in the first place.......................

Geeez..do I sound bitter?

[Guest guest]

Maverick is in an " Integrated Science Class " . 20 kids, 10 sp needs, 10

typical.

We thought PERFECT SETTING, right? Sp ed teacher, 2 aides, reg ed teacher,

modified work for those who need it.

Well, so far we haven't seen an aide, except for Mav's. Nor a sp ed teacher, and

the kids with sp needs, at most are LD, none of them really anywhere near

Maverick's level.

I personally think it could work. But, then, I'm the parent, not the reg ed

teacher, not the sp ed teacher and not the aide.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/2005 11:23:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Michdock@... writes:

Oh, I think we should blame the parents. After all, if they didn't want

their kids where they didn't belong in the first place.......................

Geeez..do I sound bitter?

Yes, it is all our faults and I for one except my responsiblitiy in my

unrealistic expectations of my child!!! (sarcasm at it's highest)

Jean

[Guest guest]

Yes, it is all our faults and I for one except my responsiblitiy in my

unrealistic expectations of my child!!! (sarcasm at it's highest)

******************************************************************************

And how do you like this one: When we were refused to put him in a work program

as a freshman and instead asked for a full academic schedule we were asked,

" Don't you ever worry about his future? "

M.

[Guest guest]

And did you say " sure, every day, just like all my kids! "

wrote:

>Yes, it is all our faults and I for one except my responsiblitiy in my

unrealistic expectations of my child!!! (sarcasm at it's highest)

>******************************************************************************

>

>And how do you like this one: When we were refused to put him in a work

program as a freshman and instead asked for a full academic schedule we were

asked, " Don't you ever worry about his future? "

>

> M.

>

>

[Guest guest]

No, don't you know it's OUR fault for even HAVING/ADOPTING them?????

Just the other day, I heard a comment, " kids like that shouldn't even be

born any more...they have tests for that now! " (by a healthcare worker no

less!!!) Comments like that make me feel so sad...

Kym

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In a message dated 9/22/2005 11:23:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Michdock@... writes:

Oh, I think we should blame the parents. After all, if they didn't want

their kids where they didn't belong in the first

place.......................

Geeez..do I sound bitter?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, it is all our faults and I for one except my responsibility in my

unrealistic expectations of my child!!! (sarcasm at it's highest)

Jean

[Guest guest]

YES, YES, . If would just accept that our kids can't learn enough so they

shouldn't learn anything. Life would be just grand.....NOT!!!!!

<hee, hee, hee>

mom to Bridget 12

Re: personal reflection...don't hate me!

Oh, I think we should blame the parents. After all, if they didn't want their

kids where they didn't belong in the first place.......................

Geeez..do I sound bitter?

[Guest guest]

I have to reflect that there are many environments in which education

can be delivered. When done well, each can have significant advantages

and also some shortcomings.

Inclusion is considered by many today to be the best setting for a child

with down syndrome. The major advantages of inclusion are socialization

with " age equivalent " peers. This can be a very important thing, but

one has to remember that not all peers are helpful and sympathetic. The

chief shortcoming of inclusion is that education is typically delivered

either in the regular classroom or in pull-outs to a general purpose

resource room where individual education can be delivered when the

academic level of a student is vastly different from the regular

students. In the classroom, the environment is often chaotic and while

individual academics can be delivered there, it is often a distracting

environment and sometimes a real compromise to the teaching. There may

be little access to intellectually equivalent peers.

Home Schooling is considered by some very strong willed parents and it

can be absolutely tops in terms of both academic delivery and also

meeting many of the other needs of the child. Its chief shortcoming is

the lack of socialization with peers, either age equivalent or

intellectually equivalent.

Small SPED classes can work extremely well for some students. There,

when it works well, students of similar developmental level are placed

in classes (sometimes very open withing the school and sometimes

" contained " ). This allows students to learn with intellectual peers and

to not always be one of the slowest in the class. It also can provide a

less distracting environment, usually with enough staffing for

break-outs into small group and even individual instruction. It is less

good at age equivalent peer socialization.

All of this gets much more difficult when the programs don't work well

to meet the IEP needs of the students. It also gets stressed when

emotional and behavioral issues kick up, either on the part of the

special student or on the part of others in the class. It works very

poorly when the teachers (both regular and special) aren't prepared,

motivated, and given the time needed to make things work or if the

district simply isn't doing its job.

In all of this, school is only a part of a child's life. Socialization

can occur outside of school (with either age or intellectual equivalent

peers). Different approaches are needed for different children. My

child was so close to attention deficit that the small SPED classrooms

worked very well for her. There she was a diligent enough student that

the teachers got personal reward from helping her make progress.

Your child will be different and certainly the options available will be

different than what we had. Still, there is no perfect system and it

often gets more imperfect when individuals don't do their jobs well and

when everyone (including the parents) cannot develop enough trust to

work as a team.

It often helps if you will try to think about how your child sees all

this. His/her perceptions may be very different than yours.

Just one parent's observation.

Rick .. dad to 32 year old Jan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/23/2005 10:15:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

It often helps if you will try to think about how your child sees all

this. His/her perceptions may be very different than yours.

I think you are exactly right and we need to be open when our children are

old enough to truly understand to " listen " to what they are saying.

Unfortunately special needs or not, many parents try to live vicariously through

their

children and end up doing them a dis-service. I think when the motivation

is correct and the research done, the correct placement is what is truly best

for our children and not what we think is best for our children. It is being

a good enough parent to observe and listen do the research for your

district, and then do what has to be done, inclusion or not. But that should

be the

case for all our children, n ot just those with special needs.

Loree

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/23/2005 11:43:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

mymacfamily@... writes:

Just the other day, I heard a comment, " kids like that shouldn't even be

born any more...they have tests for that now! " (by a healthcare worker no

less!!!) Comments like that make me feel so sad...

I heard the exact same comment from a social worked in the NYC Department of

Education and something similar from a pediatric neurologist who was seeing

Liam! I think we have to remember that even if we don't hear the sentiment, a

lot of professionals we deal with are thinking it!

Kathy Liam's Mom (7, DS, Asthma, Diabetes (dx 11/04))

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

I was way too tired last night to respond to this post appropriately, but

feel I can do so now that I have had adequate rest. First of all, I do not

hate the original poster. I feel that many of her comments were right on

point. I have Cerebral Palsy (I joined this group hoping to help some people

because I noticed that those with downs face many of the same challenges we

do). I am 22 years old and attend college now and this is my take on things.

Getting inclluded in public school was very difficult. Even though the laws

were on my side, many of the team members we encountered from special ed and

the administration throughout my years were not. My parents (and I when I

became old enough) endured many painful and bitter IEP meetings to ensure I

received the basic therapies and services I needed to succeed, even though

these things were required by law.

College on the other hand has been a completely different story. Here,

where there are no written documents to specify what needs done, I have

found more support than ever! I have been blessed with wonderful aides from

a local home health agency that assist me during the school day and sevceral

professors who have become better friends and advocates for me than the

Disability Services or Special Ed department of any school or university has

ever been! I have shined in this environment and feel they deserve a good

share of the credit. I also receive therapies now as private medical

insurance allows tghat put school therapy to shame! Just had to give a

" veteran's " view of things.

[Guest guest]

Jackie the remark was sarcasm as were the remarks before that. We were

showing how ridiculous the schools are when dealing with parents. I thinks each

parent chooses what works best for their child and then becomes the thorn in

the schools side. The schools are never happy with what we think they should

be doing.

I am sorry if you misunderstood and took offense. The last thing I think

anyone on this list does is judge the choices that we make for our children.

Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/24/2005 8:14:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jbocci55@... writes:

Now, Monday we have a meeting to see if they will pay for an aide for him to

be able to participate on the school swim team. This one might be a

challenge.

Check this out:

This is a matter of non-discrimination, really. Under 504 the school must

provide whatever support is necessary for the child to be able to have

EQUAL access to these school sponsored activities:

104.37 Nonacademic services.

(a) General. (1) A recipient to which this subpart applies shall provide

non-academic and extracurricular services and activities in such manner as

is necessary to afford handicapped students an equal opportunity for

participation in such services and activities.

(2) Nonacademic and extracurricular services and activities may include

counseling services, physical recreational athletics, transportation,

health services, recreational activities, special interest groups or clubs

sponsored by the recipients, referrals to agencies which provide assistance

to handicapped persons, and employment of students, including both

employment by the recipient and assistance in making available outside

employment.

Also, look at the IEP page for Present Levels of Educational Performace B:

Other ---- one of the boxes that can be checked is Extracurricular

activities ---

I would ask for the aide both pursuant to 504 and try to get it documented

in the IEP as well

HTH

Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/24/2005 7:48:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

jbocci55@... writes:

I'm confused by this remark. Are we saying that the glitches with inclusion

are to be blamed on parents who chooose not to go the inclusion route?

Oh I don't think that is the way it was meant at all. I think the writer

was saying that whenever a parent does want to go a different way (inclusion)

they are bucking the system that the district is used to. They are not

sympathetic at all to a parent's plight. I don't believe it had anything at

all to

do with other parents of children with special needs.

Loree

[Guest guest]

I'm confused by this remark. Are we saying that the glitches with inclusion are

to be blamed on parents who chooose not to go the inclusion route? I'm hoping I

just misinterpreted, because I did not choose inclusion for because my

school district, after the elementary years, was not prepared for inclusion at

the jr. and sr. high school level and I personally did not have the means to

make it my full-time job (which you almost have to do, it seems) to train them

to do it properly and constantly be checking up. I would hate to be accused of

sabotaging inclusion for others by choosing what I felt was appropriate for

at the time. I still say it is the professionals dropping the ball, certainly

not the parents. JMHO.

Jackie, mom to 18ds, 15, and Bradley 11

-------------- Original message --------------

> Oh, I think we should blame the parents. After all, if they didn't want their

> kids where they didn't belong in the first place.......................

>

> Geeez..do I sound bitter?

>

>