Guest guest Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 You seem quite amazing, Shad....per your definitions, nothing is out of place - have you had your hands on your patients structure? - so what is that you adjust? How do you achieve - and maintain - business? Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C Eugene, Oregon, 97401 541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955 From: "Shad McLagan" <shadmac11@...> Subject: Re: fixation?Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:57:01 -0000 Dr. Pederson,"If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'?"It can't be considered to be fixated or in malposition. As I have stated before I don't believe in fixation or malposition. I was just pointing out the fact that a joint will cavitate whether it is healthy or not. "Do you discount existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft tissue spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC?"Yes I do. I don't believe in motor-unit aberrant neural activity. I do believe in motor unit activity, but I don't believe in an aberrant system or aberrant neural/motor unit response."Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-moving segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished?"Again, I was only stating that joints will cavitate whether they are healthy or not. So to answer your question, I don't believe healthy freely moving segments require manipulation or treatment, because they are healthy.If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask.Shad McLagan D.C.>> Dr. McLagan:> Thank you for your efforts to clarify your position.> > re: " Healthy, freely moving spinal segments will cavitate whether they > are "fixated" or in "malposition" or not. "> > If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be > considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'? Do you discount > existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft tissue > spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC? > > re: "I do believe patient get better from manipulation, but I choose to > manipulate for reasons that are obviously different then most of yours"> > Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving > segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-moving > segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have > performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished?> > Yours in health,> > Jack Pedersen DC> View Athlete’s Collections with Live Search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 I am left virtually speechless by this circular logic. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak Street Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Shad McLagan Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:57 AM Subject: Re: fixation? Dr. Pederson, " If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'? " It can't be considered to be fixated or in malposition. As I have stated before I don't believe in fixation or malposition. I was just pointing out the fact that a joint will cavitate whether it is healthy or not. " Do you discount existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft tissue spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC? " Yes I do. I don't believe in motor-unit aberrant neural activity. I do believe in motor unit activity, but I don't believe in an aberrant system or aberrant neural/motor unit response. " Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-moving segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished? " Again, I was only stating that joints will cavitate whether they are healthy or not. So to answer your question, I don't believe healthy freely moving segments require manipulation or treatment, because they are healthy. If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask. Shad McLagan D.C. > > Dr. McLagan: > Thank you for your efforts to clarify your position. > > re: " Healthy, freely moving spinal segments will cavitate whether they > are " fixated " or in " malposition " or not. " > > If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be > considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'? Do you discount > existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft tissue > spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC? > > re: " I do believe patient get better from manipulation, but I choose to > manipulate for reasons that are obviously different then most of yours " > > Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving > segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely- moving > segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have > performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished? > > Yours in health, > > Jack Pedersen DC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Yeah, I hear ya ... I know VETERINARIANS who have a better understanding of the deleterious effects of pathomechanics on the nervous system (and full body function) then these guys do... They've just got a very, mish-mash, mongrel philosophy...(somewhere between PT/LMT/DO). (In my opinion, of course (:-) M. s, D.C. RE: Re: fixation? I am left virtually speechless by this circular logic. Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians 730-D SE Oak Street Hillsboro, OR 97123 (503)640-3724 From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Shad McLaganSent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:57 AM Subject: Re: fixation? Dr. Pederson,"If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'?"It can't be considered to be fixated or in malposition. As I have stated before I don't believe in fixation or malposition. I was just pointing out the fact that a joint will cavitate whether it is healthy or not. "Do you discount existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft tissue spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC?"Yes I do. I don't believe in motor-unit aberrant neural activity. I do believe in motor unit activity, but I don't believe in an aberrant system or aberrant neural/motor unit response."Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-moving segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished?"Again, I was only stating that joints will cavitate whether they are healthy or not. So to answer your question, I don't believe healthy freely moving segments require manipulation or treatment, because they are healthy.If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask.Shad McLagan D.C.>> Dr. McLagan:> Thank you for your efforts to clarify your position.> > re: " Healthy, freely moving spinal segments will cavitate whether they > are "fixated" or in "malposition" or not. "> > If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be > considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'? Do you discount > existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft tissue > spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC? > > re: "I do believe patient get better from manipulation, but I choose to > manipulate for reasons that are obviously different then most of yours"> > Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving > segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-moving > segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have > performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished?> > Yours in health,> > Jack Pedersen DC> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Shad, your ability to skirt the question is up there with the slickest politicians. Here i awaited eagerly for your response to Dr. Pederson's question of: "Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-moving segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished?" And was rewarded with your response below: Again, I was only stating that joints will cavitate whether they are healthy or not. So to answer your question, I don't believe healthy freely moving segments require manipulation or treatment, because they are healthy. OK, you answered it, but left out what we all want to know. For the clarification of the entire group could you PLEASE clarify what situation would require an adjustment from Dr. McLagan. Please do not respond with "I manipulate, I don't adjust" or "Only to assist the body in it's intelligent purpose" etc. SHow me what you write down that would indicate an adjustment of a vertebrae and how you evaluate it's effectiveness. Thank you and I look forward to your clarification so as to move on with a more concise picture of what it is you are doing clinically and waste no more time on this issue ph Medlin, DCSpine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St.Portland, OR 97211 Re: fixation? Dr. Pederson,"If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'?"It can't be considered to be fixated or in malposition. As I have stated before I don't believe in fixation or malposition. I was just pointing out the fact that a joint will cavitate whether it is healthy or not. "Do you discount existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft tissue spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC?"Yes I do. I don't believe in motor-unit aberrant neural activity. I do believe in motor unit activity, but I don't believe in an aberrant system or aberrant neural/motor unit response."Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-moving segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished?"Again, I was only stating that joints will cavitate whether they are healthy or not. So to answer your question, I don't believe healthy freely moving segments require manipulation or treatment, because they are healthy.If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask.Shad McLagan D.C.>> Dr. McLagan:> Thank you for your efforts to clarify your position.> > re: " Healthy, freely moving spinal segments will cavitate whether they > are "fixated" or in "malposition" or not. "> > If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be > considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'? Do you discount > existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft tissue > spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC? > > re: "I do believe patient get better from manipulation, but I choose to > manipulate for reasons that are obviously different then most of yours"> > Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely moving > segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-moving > segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you have > performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished?> > Yours in health,> > Jack Pedersen DC> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Dr. McLagan, Re: After ruling out pathology, including fracuture or dislocation, using neuro/ortho and other tests, I would provocate the spinal joints...” You said a mouthful but the word you might be looking for is “provoke”. (Not to provocate you.) ( E. Abrahamson, D.C.) Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic 315 Second Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com From: Shad McLagan <shadmac11@...> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:55:08 -0000 < > Subject: Re: fixation? Dr. Medlin, " PLEASE clarify what situation would require an adjustment from Dr. McLagan. Please do not respond with " I manipulate, I don't adjust " or " Only to assist the body in it's intelligent purpose " etc. SHow me what you write down that would indicate an adjustment of a vertebrae and how you evaluate it's effectiveness. " I and Dr. Welker have stated before in many prior messages how and why I treat, manipulate, adjust, etc.. yet you still don't understand. You can not identify specific localized irritation to a joint/spinal segment by way of x-ray, posture, gait, motion palpation, thermal gradient studies, sEMG, static alignment, AROM, or PROM. I believe the best indicator for identifying specific localized irritation of a joint or tissue is provocation of that joint or tissue. After ruling out pathology, including fracuture or dislocation, using neuro/ortho and other tests, I would provocate the spinal joints to assess localized irritation. While provocating I ask the patient if this pain is the pain they have described as their symptom. If the answer is yes, I then provocate to find which direction is irritated and which direction(s) is not. If all directions are painful, then manipulation is contraindicated. If I find a direction that is pain free, I then manipulate or mobilize in that direction away from pain. Following manipulation and mobilization I then recheck the segment, using provocation, to see if there has been a reduction in pain or irritation. Specific spinal provocation, along with the positive ortho/neuro tests from the previous visit, are performed each visit to objectively assess improvement or reduction of pain or symptoms. Again, I do believe chiropractic manipulation works. For some reason, others seem to believe I don't manipulate. I do, but for obviously different reasons. This is just how I treat. It is just something to think about and perhaps to try for yourself. Whether it is the correct way or not, or whether subluxation based is the correct way or not, is still an issue that will be fought and discussed for years to come. This is just what I do, and what works for me. I have not tried to disrespect you or anyone on this list serve. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Shad McLagan D.C. > > > > Dr. McLagan: > > Thank you for your efforts to clarify your position. > > > > re: " Healthy, freely moving spinal segments will cavitate whether > they > > are " fixated " or in " malposition " or not. " > > > > If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be > > considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'? Do you > discount > > existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft > tissue > > spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC? > > > > re: " I do believe patient get better from manipulation, but I > choose to > > manipulate for reasons that are obviously different then most of > yours " > > > > Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely > moving > > segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely- > moving > > segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you > have > > performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished? > > > > Yours in health, > > > > Jack Pedersen DC > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Thank You!!!! I don't believe it has been said as you have just stated it. It is not that i don't understand. You adjust away from the side of pain and do not adjust into any painful area. Not very difficult or complicated. All the provocation/irritation stuff is common place in every practice. It would be interesting to know the research behind your application of adjusting (you could be doing the opposite of your intentions), but i feel privelaged to have gotten a straight answer and will not pry you any longer. Pain is very subjective though. I'd be careful in chasing pain (which I was taught in chiro school). Also, I'd suggest you look at some McKenzie (and others) type of work that suggests the exact opposite of what you are doing. For instance pain on the concave side of a scoliosis, none on the convex. You better not adjust that concave side!! Anyway, Best of luck ph Medlin, DCSpine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St.Portland, OR 97211 Re: fixation? Dr. Medlin,"PLEASE clarify what situation would require an adjustment from Dr. McLagan. Please do not respond with "I manipulate, I don't adjust" or "Only to assist the body in it's intelligent purpose" etc. SHow me what you write down that would indicate an adjustment of a vertebrae and how you evaluate it's effectiveness."I and Dr. Welker have stated before in many prior messages how and why I treat, manipulate, adjust, etc.. yet you still don't understand. You can not identify specific localized irritation to a joint/spinal segment by way of x-ray, posture, gait, motion palpation, thermal gradient studies, sEMG, static alignment, AROM, or PROM. I believe the best indicator for identifying specific localized irritation of a joint or tissue is provocation of that joint or tissue. After ruling out pathology, including fracuture or dislocation, using neuro/ortho and other tests, I would provocate the spinal joints to assess localized irritation. While provocating I ask the patient if this pain is the pain they have described as their symptom. If the answer is yes, I then provocate to find which direction is irritated and which direction(s) is not. If all directions are painful, then manipulation is contraindicated. If I find a direction that is pain free, I then manipulate or mobilize in that direction away from pain. Following manipulation and mobilization I then recheck the segment, using provocation, to see if there has been a reduction in pain or irritation. Specific spinal provocation, along with the positive ortho/neuro tests from the previous visit, are performed each visit to objectively assess improvement or reduction of pain or symptoms.Again, I do believe chiropractic manipulation works. For some reason, others seem to believe I don't manipulate. I do, but for obviously different reasons. This is just how I treat. It is just something to think about and perhaps to try for yourself. Whether it is the correct way or not, or whether subluxation based is the correct way or not, is still an issue that will be fought and discussed for years to come. This is just what I do, and what works for me. I have not tried to disrespect you or anyone on this list serve. Please let me know if you have any other questions.Shad McLagan D.C.> >> > Dr. McLagan:> > Thank you for your efforts to clarify your position.> > > > re: " Healthy, freely moving spinal segments will cavitate whether > they > > are "fixated" or in "malposition" or not. "> > > > If a spinal segment is 'freely moving and healthy', how can it be > > considered to be either 'fixated' or in 'malposition'? Do you > discount > > existence of localized motor-unit aberrant neural activity, soft > tissue > > spasm-etc-long identified as a component of the VSC? > > > > re: "I do believe patient get better from manipulation, but I > choose to > > manipulate for reasons that are obviously different then most of > yours"> > > > Would you please explain how you determine when 'healthy freely > moving > > segments' require manipulation? What characteristics of freely-> moving > > segments do you identify as requiring manipulation? And once you > have > > performed that task, how do you evaluate what you have accomplished?> > > > Yours in health,> > > > Jack Pedersen DC> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 No big deal, friends, but we have no such words in English: provocate or provocating.Just to avoid further embarrassment, it's 'provoke' or 'provoking' that is implied. I thunk.... Sears, DCNW PDX On Nov 21, 2006, at 11:55 AM, Shad McLagan wrote:After ruling out pathology, including fracuture or dislocation, using neuro/ortho and other tests, I would provocate the spinal joints to assess localized irritation. While provocating I ask the patient if this pain is the pain they have described as their symptom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 McLagan States, "I manipulate based on what is irritated." And, "Irritation can only be found by loading and provocating the spine." I thought you said you DON'T adjust where there's irritation!!! (Which one is it doc...either you do or you DON'T adjust irritation! I thought this is what separated the "superior results" from the Quackwatch Chiros??? BTW, this would be a perfect example of that "circular thinking" thing everyone is complaining about). So...why is it that you guys adjust again? (besides to increase blood flow as Welker stated, which we all know blood flow is REALLY regulated by NERVE function, so if you're adjusting joints to affect blood flow, you're REALLY affecting nerve function..and that is of course a component of the the Subluxation Complex...and...oh never mind. RR Re: fixation? Thank you Sunny,Yes, I have felt a patients structure, but alignment tells you nothing about where the patients pain and irritation is. I manipulate based on what is irritated. I have stated this in prior posts and have explained my reasoning behind this. If you are asking if I adjust based on structural changes, then my answer would be no. I do not believe structural changes show where the irritation is. Irritation can only be found by loading and provocating the spine. I have also explained this in prior posts.I would be happy to answer anymore of you questions.Shad McLagan D.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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