Re: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/14/2006 2:27:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, sharronf@... writes:

Yes, I see that. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what the comparative supine vs. prone BP was in those alleging stroke from manipulation ?

That is very interesting - I would like to know what percent of CVA occur with adjusting in the prone vs. supine position. Hhhmmmmm

Anglen

[Guest guest]

When I worked cardiovascular intensive care, we'd often see arrythmias when lying on one side vs. the other, so why not the same with BP, depending on which electrical or vascular structures were being irritated. I like Dr. CAughlin's baroreceptor theory.

Don White, RN, DC

P.S. The cardiologists would say, "Well now, don't lie on that side".

[Guest guest]

How very interesting. Thank you so much. Ask and ye shall find.

Have any of you noticed this in your practice ? Could or should this be added to a clinical exam to look for cardiovascular disease?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinberg@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:06 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hey, Sharron;

Check this out:

Hypotension associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural hypotension.Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime University School of Medicine, Toon, Japan. tabara@...Conditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing enterprise in Ehime Prefecture, Japan. Brachial BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone position, in that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change. The postural changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a SphygmoCor system. The basal BP measured in the sitting position was significantly decreased in the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg, p<0.001). A further reduction was observed after the postural change from supine to prone (130+/-17 to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was increased with the supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min, p<0.001), while it showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine postural change (-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction was more prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial artery (-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that basal systolic BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension (beta=-0.309, p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in a prone posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:43 PM Subject: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No cervical manipulation involved. )

sharron fuchs dc

[Guest guest]

Hey,

Sharron;

Check this

out:

Hypotension

associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural

hypotension.

Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.

Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime University School

of Medicine, Toon, Japan. tabara@...

Conditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as

orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with

cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized

as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a

cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body

position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged

healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing

enterprise in Ehime Prefecture,

Japan. Brachial

BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone position, in

that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change. The postural

changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a SphygmoCor system.

The basal BP measured in the sitting position was significantly decreased in

the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg, p<0.001). A further

reduction was observed after the postural change from supine to prone (130+/-17

to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was increased with the

supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min, p<0.001), while it

showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine postural change

(-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction was more

prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial artery

(-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that basal systolic

BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension (beta=-0.309,

p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in a prone

posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the

possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron Fuchs

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006

12:43 PM

Subject: Supine vs.

Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving

from the supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No

cervical manipulation involved. )

sharron fuchs dc

[Guest guest]

Sharron;

You notice

that the authors suggest this as an indicator of possible cardiovascular

frailty. That is, if the heart can’t compensate for something as

uneventful as going from supine to prone, sump’in ain’t right.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron Fuchs

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:10

PM

Subject: RE: Supine

vs. Prone and Hypotension

How very interesting. Thank you so much.

Ask and ye shall find.

Have any of you noticed this in your

practice ? Could or should this be added to a clinical exam to look for

cardiovascular disease?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S.

Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinbergnmt (DOT) md]

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:06

PM

Sharron Fuchs;

Subject: RE: Supine

vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hey, Sharron;

Check this out:

Hypotension

associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural

hypotension.

Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.

Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime

University School of Medicine, Toon, Japan.

tabara@...-u.ac.jp

Conditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as

orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with

cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized

as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a

cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body

position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged

healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing enterprise

in Ehime Prefecture,

Japan.

Brachial BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone

position, in that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change.

The postural changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a

SphygmoCor system. The basal BP measured in the sitting position was

significantly decreased in the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg,

p<0.001). A further reduction was observed after the postural change from

supine to prone (130+/-17 to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was

increased with the supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min,

p<0.001), while it showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine

postural change (-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction

was more prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial

artery (-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that

basal systolic BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension

(beta=-0.309, p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in

a prone posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the

possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Sharron Fuchs

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006

12:43 PM

Subject: Supine vs.

Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can

anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the supine to the prone

position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No cervical manipulation

involved. )

sharron

fuchs dc

[Guest guest]

Yes, I see that. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what the comparative supine vs. prone BP was in those alleging stroke from manipulation ?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinberg@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:22 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Sharron;

You notice that the authors suggest this as an indicator of possible cardiovascular frailty. That is, if the heart can’t compensate for something as uneventful as going from supine to prone, sump’in ain’t right.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

How very interesting. Thank you so much. Ask and ye shall find.

Have any of you noticed this in your practice ? Could or should this be added to a clinical exam to look for cardiovascular disease?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinbergnmt (DOT) md] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:06 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hey, Sharron;

Check this out:

Hypotension associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural hypotension.Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime University School of Medicine, Toon, Japan. tabara@...-u.ac.jpConditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing enterprise in Ehime Prefecture, Japan. Brachial BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone position, in that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change. The postural changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a SphygmoCor system. The basal BP measured in the sitting position was significantly decreased in the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg, p<0.001). A further reduction was observed after the postural change from supine to prone (130+/-17 to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was increased with the supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min, p<0.001), while it showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine postural change (-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction was more prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial artery (-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that basal systolic BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension (beta=-0.309, p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in a prone posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:43 PM Subject: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No cervical manipulation involved. )

sharron fuchs dc

[Guest guest]

Sharron;

That would

be very interesting and as you imply (I assume you are implying), might constitute

a quick screen for those at risk.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron Fuchs

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:26

PM

Subject: RE: Supine

vs. Prone and Hypotension

Yes, I see that. Wouldn't it be

interesting to know what the comparative supine vs. prone BP was in those

alleging stroke from manipulation ?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S.

Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinbergeoni]

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:22

PM

Sharron Fuchs;

Subject: RE: Supine

vs. Prone and Hypotension

Sharron;

You notice that the authors suggest

this as an indicator of possible cardiovascular frailty. That is, if the

heart can’t compensate for something as uneventful as going from supine

to prone, sump’in ain’t right.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Sharron Fuchs

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:10

PM

Subject: RE: Supine

vs. Prone and Hypotension

How very interesting. Thank you so much. Ask and ye shall find.

Have any of you noticed this in your practice ? Could or

should this be added to a clinical exam to look for cardiovascular disease?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinbergnmt (DOT) md]

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:06

PM

Sharron Fuchs;

Subject: RE: Supine

vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hey, Sharron;

Check this out:

Hypotension

associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural

hypotension.

Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.

Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime

University School of Medicine, Toon, Japan.

tabara@...-u.ac.jp

Conditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as

orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with

cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized

as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a

cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body

position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged

healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing enterprise

in Ehime Prefecture,

Japan.

Brachial BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone

position, in that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change.

The postural changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a

SphygmoCor system. The basal BP measured in the sitting position was

significantly decreased in the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg,

p<0.001). A further reduction was observed after the postural change from

supine to prone (130+/-17 to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was

increased with the supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min,

p<0.001), while it showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine

postural change (-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction

was more prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial

artery (-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that

basal systolic BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension

(beta=-0.309, p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in

a prone posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the

possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Sharron Fuchs

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006

12:43 PM

Subject: Supine vs.

Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can

anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the supine to the prone position

would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No cervical manipulation involved. )

sharron

fuchs dc

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon, et al,

To me this is not an unusual finding when assessing sacral occipital relationship.

Cleaning up a chronic sacroiliac syndrom with all of its fallout (bowed spine, fibular disruption creating both or eithr knee/ankle problems, shoulder girdle disruption, cranial distortion, organ shifting) will right much of this, often within a week or two. I had one case of vertigo that took me three weeks to eliminate but that is unusual.

The whole body needs to be assessed and corrected: back to that ol' 'find what there is to fix and fix what you find' adage.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: "Sharron Fuchs" <sharronf@...>< >Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and HypotensionDate: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:26:08 -0700

Yes, I see that. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what the comparative supine vs. prone BP was in those alleging stroke from manipulation ?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinberg@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:22 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Sharron;

You notice that the authors suggest this as an indicator of possible cardiovascular frailty. That is, if the heart can’t compensate for something as uneventful as going from supine to prone, sump’in ain’t right.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

How very interesting. Thank you so much. Ask and ye shall find.

Have any of you noticed this in your practice ? Could or should this be added to a clinical exam to look for cardiovascular disease?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinbergnmt (DOT) md] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:06 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hey, Sharron;

Check this out:

Hypotension associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural hypotension.Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime University School of Medicine, Toon, Japan. tabara@...-u.ac.jpConditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing enterprise in Ehime Prefecture, Japan. Brachial BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone position, in that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change. The postural changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a SphygmoCor system. The basal BP measured in the sitting position was significantly decreased in the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg, p<0.001). A further reduction was observed after the postural change from supine to prone (130+/-17 to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was increased with the supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min, p<0.001), while it showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine postural change (-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction was more prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial artery (-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that basal systolic BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension (beta=-0.309, p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in a prone posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:43 PM Subject: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No cervical manipulation involved. )

sharron fuchs dc

Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site.

[Guest guest]

What if , in addition to your findings, the person also had cardiovascular disease ? Would the patient become asymptomatic or vascularly regulated to the best of their physiological ability ? This too would be an interesting study .

sharron fuchs dc

From: sunny Kierstyn [mailto:skrndc1@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:49 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hi Sharon, et al,

To me this is not an unusual finding when assessing sacral occipital relationship.

Cleaning up a chronic sacroiliac syndrom with all of its fallout (bowed spine, fibular disruption creating both or eithr knee/ankle problems, shoulder girdle disruption, cranial distortion, organ shifting) will right much of this, often within a week or two. I had one case of vertigo that took me three weeks to eliminate but that is unusual.

The whole body needs to be assessed and corrected: back to that ol' 'find what there is to fix and fix what you find' adage.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: "Sharron Fuchs" <sharronf@...>< >Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and HypotensionDate: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:26:08 -0700

Yes, I see that. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what the comparative supine vs. prone BP was in those alleging stroke from manipulation ?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinberg@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:22 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Sharron;

You notice that the authors suggest this as an indicator of possible cardiovascular frailty. That is, if the heart can’t compensate for something as uneventful as going from supine to prone, sump’in ain’t right.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

How very interesting. Thank you so much. Ask and ye shall find.

Have any of you noticed this in your practice ? Could or should this be added to a clinical exam to look for cardiovascular disease?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinbergnmt (DOT) md] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:06 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hey, Sharron;

Check this out:

Hypotension associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural hypotension.Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime University School of Medicine, Toon, Japan. tabara@...-u.ac.jpConditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing enterprise in Ehime Prefecture, Japan. Brachial BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone position, in that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change. The postural changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a SphygmoCor system. The basal BP measured in the sitting position was significantly decreased in the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg, p<0.001). A further reduction was observed after the postural change from supine to prone (130+/-17 to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was increased with the supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min, p<0.001), while it showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine postural change (-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction was more prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial artery (-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that basal systolic BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension (beta=-0.309, p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in a prone posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:43 PM Subject: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No cervical manipulation involved. )

sharron fuchs dc

Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site.

[Guest guest]

Possibly carotid sinus reflex?? ( this is why I only wear neck ties when

absolutley necessary)

> Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the

> supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No

> cervical manipulation involved. )

>

> sharron fuchs dc

>

DR CHARLIE CAUGHLIN DC. CAC

155 NW 1ST AVE

JOHN DAY, OR 97845

OFF-541-575-1063

FAX-541-575-5554

HM-541-575-1103

[Guest guest]

it would be an interesting study .... with cardiovascular involvement, (just about any American - to make a very generic statement - over the age of 60, a short course of nattokinase decreases their tendency for shortness of breathe, sometimes within 2 - 4 weeks. Research on it shows the proclivity to 'clean up plaquing'. My experience with it, both personally and with patients, is that it certainly decrease SOB, increases endurance and oxygenation, increases energy, changes lab/liver studies. The changes are palpable.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: "Sharron Fuchs" <sharronf@...>< >Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and HypotensionDate: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:03:18 -0700

What if , in addition to your findings, the person also had cardiovascular disease ? Would the patient become asymptomatic or vascularly regulated to the best of their physiological ability ? This too would be an interesting study .

sharron fuchs dc

From: sunny Kierstyn [mailto:skrndc1@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:49 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hi Sharon, et al,

To me this is not an unusual finding when assessing sacral occipital relationship.

Cleaning up a chronic sacroiliac syndrom with all of its fallout (bowed spine, fibular disruption creating both or eithr knee/ankle problems, shoulder girdle disruption, cranial distortion, organ shifting) will right much of this, often within a week or two. I had one case of vertigo that took me three weeks to eliminate but that is unusual.

The whole body needs to be assessed and corrected: back to that ol' 'find what there is to fix and fix what you find' adage.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: "Sharron Fuchs" <sharronf@...>< >Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and HypotensionDate: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:26:08 -0700

Yes, I see that. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what the comparative supine vs. prone BP was in those alleging stroke from manipulation ?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinberg@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:22 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Sharron;

You notice that the authors suggest this as an indicator of possible cardiovascular frailty. That is, if the heart can’t compensate for something as uneventful as going from supine to prone, sump’in ain’t right.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

How very interesting. Thank you so much. Ask and ye shall find.

Have any of you noticed this in your practice ? Could or should this be added to a clinical exam to look for cardiovascular disease?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinbergnmt (DOT) md] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:06 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hey, Sharron;

Check this out:

Hypotension associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural hypotension.Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime University School of Medicine, Toon, Japan. tabara@...-u.ac.jpConditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing enterprise in Ehime Prefecture, Japan. Brachial BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone position, in that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change. The postural changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a SphygmoCor system. The basal BP measured in the sitting position was significantly decreased in the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg, p<0.001). A further reduction was observed after the postural change from supine to prone (130+/-17 to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was increased with the supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min, p<0.001), while it showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine postural change (-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction was more prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial artery (-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that basal systolic BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension (beta=-0.309, p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in a prone posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:43 PM Subject: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No cervical manipulation involved. )

sharron fuchs dc

Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site. Search from any web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE Windows Live Toolbar Today!

[Guest guest]

chuckle, chuckle....guess that's where I get my tendency to "just treat it and get rid of it' mentality. Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: MekaAbou@...To: caughlindrc@..., sharronf@...CC: Subject: Re: Supine vs. Prone and HypotensionDate: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:10:23 EDT

When I worked cardiovascular intensive care, we'd often see arrythmias when lying on one side vs. the other, so why not the same with BP, depending on which electrical or vascular structures were being irritated. I like Dr. CAughlin's baroreceptor theory.

Don White, RN, DC

P.S. The cardiologists would say, "Well now, don't lie on that side". Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site.

[Guest guest]

Charlie;

“this

is why I only wear neck ties when absolutely necessary” Now, wait just a

minute. The reason you don’t wear neckties is you’re an Eastern Oregon cowboy. Let’s be honest.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Dr. Charlie Caughlin DC

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:11

PM

Sharron Fuchs

Cc:

Subject: Re: Supine

vs. Prone and Hypotension

Possibly carotid sinus reflex?? ( this is why I only

wear neck ties when

absolutley necessary)

> Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the

> supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No

> cervical manipulation involved. )

>

> sharron fuchs dc

>

DR CHARLIE CAUGHLIN DC. CAC

155 NW 1ST AVE

JOHN DAY, OR 97845

OFF-541-575-1063

FAX-541-575-5554

HM-541-575-1103

[Guest guest]

Sounds like Stoney...he always siad that when a pt tells you it hurts when

they do something the best advice is to tell them " don't do that "

> When I worked cardiovascular intensive care, we'd often see arrythmias

> when

> lying on one side vs. the other, so why not the same with BP, depending on

> which electrical or vascular structures were being irritated. I like Dr.

> CAughlin's baroreceptor theory.

>

> Don White, RN, DC

>

> P.S. The cardiologists would say, " Well now, don't lie on that side " .

>

DR CHARLIE CAUGHLIN DC. CAC

155 NW 1ST AVE

JOHN DAY, OR 97845

OFF-541-575-1063

FAX-541-575-5554

HM-541-575-1103

[Guest guest]

Sunny,

Do you have any spare natto that gets rid of SOBs. We have a few down here that I'd like to help with this treatment!

Seriously, though. . . natto is a wonder in how well it works and how quickly. Maybe we could get the mainline practionioners to have to talk about this as one of the alternatives.

Sigh, probably not in my lifetime.

Christian Mathisen DC

3650 S Pacific Hwy

Medford, OR 97501

cmathdc@...

it would be an interesting study .... with cardiovascular involvement, (just about any American - to make a very generic statement - over the age of 60, a short course of nattokinase decreases their tendency for shortness of breathe, sometimes within 2 - 4 weeks. Research on it shows the proclivity to 'clean up plaquing'. My experience with it, both personally and with patients, is that it certainly decrease SOB, increases endurance and oxygenation, increases energy, changes lab/liver studies. The changes are palpable.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: "Sharron Fuchs" <sharronf@...>< >Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and HypotensionDate: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:03:18 -0700

What if , in addition to your findings, the person also had cardiovascular disease ? Would the patient become asymptomatic or vascularly regulated to the best of their physiological ability ? This too would be an interesting study .

sharron fuchs dc

From: sunny Kierstyn [mailto:skrndc1@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:49 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hi Sharon, et al,

To me this is not an unusual finding when assessing sacral occipital relationship.

Cleaning up a chronic sacroiliac syndrom with all of its fallout (bowed spine, fibular disruption creating both or eithr knee/ankle problems, shoulder girdle disruption, cranial distortion, organ shifting) will right much of this, often within a week or two. I had one case of vertigo that took me three weeks to eliminate but that is unusual.

The whole body needs to be assessed and corrected: back to that ol' 'find what there is to fix and fix what you find' adage.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: "Sharron Fuchs" <sharronf@...>< >Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and HypotensionDate: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:26:08 -0700

Yes, I see that. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what the comparative supine vs. prone BP was in those alleging stroke from manipulation ?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinberg@...] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:22 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Sharron;

You notice that the authors suggest this as an indicator of possible cardiovascular frailty. That is, if the heart can’t compensate for something as uneventful as going from supine to prone, sump’in ain’t right.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

How very interesting. Thank you so much. Ask and ye shall find.

Have any of you noticed this in your practice ? Could or should this be added to a clinical exam to look for cardiovascular disease?

sharron fuchs dc

From: S. Feinberg, D.C. [mailto:feinbergnmt (DOT) md] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:06 PMSharron Fuchs; Subject: RE: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Hey, Sharron;

Check this out:

Hypotension associated with prone body position: a possible overlooked postural hypotension.Tabara Y, Tachibana-Iimori R, Yamamoto M, Abe M, Kondo I, Miki T, Kohara K.Department of Medical Genetics, Ehime University School of Medicine, Toon, Japan. tabara@...-u.ac.jpConditions related to the dysregulation of blood pressure (BP), such as orthostatic hypotension, have been shown to be significantly associated with cardiovascular disease. Recently, the prone body position has been recognized as a possible postural factor leading to BP dysregulation. We conducted a cross-sectional study to investigate the BP response to a change in body position from supine to prone. The study subjects consisted of 271 middle-aged healthy males, randomly selected from the employees of a large manufacturing enterprise in Ehime Prefecture, Japan. Brachial BP and heart rate were measured in a sitting, supine and prone position, in that order, and each difference was defined as a postural change. The postural changes in aortic hemodynamics were also assessed using a SphygmoCor system. The basal BP measured in the sitting position was significantly decreased in the supine position (132+/-18 to 130+/-17 mmHg, p<0.001). A further reduction was observed after the postural change from supine to prone (130+/-17 to 125+/-16 mmHg, p<0.001). The heart rate was increased with the supine-to-prone postural change (4.1+/-5.8 beats/min, p<0.001), while it showed a significant decrease with the sitting-to-supine postural change (-7.6+/-5.6 beats/ min, p<0.05). The impact of BP reduction was more prominent in the aortic artery (-3.3+/-6.7%) than the brachial artery (-3.0+/-6.3%, p=0.020). Multiple regression analysis showed that basal systolic BP was a solely significant determinant of the prone-hypotension (beta=-0.309, p<0.001). In conclusion, these results indicate that lying in a prone posture could lead to unregulated postural hypotension, which has the possibility of being a novel predictor of cardiovascular frailty.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron FuchsSent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:43 PM Subject: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

Drs., Can anyone give me any understanding as to why moving from the supine to the prone position would induce a hypotensive episode ? ( No cervical manipulation involved. )

sharron fuchs dc

Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site.

Search from any web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE Windows Live Toolbar Today!

[Guest guest]

Also vs. Sitting position and cervical adjusting.

Also, I found it odd that from a supine to prone position the hrt rate increased while BP diminished. A novel predictor of CV frailty indeed, because as the study indicates, everyone showed some sort of alteration with altered posture. It also makes me wonder about side posture, and about "belly sleepers". Perhaps the reason many folks find the prone position most comfortable for sleeping is due partially to this as well.

Thinking out loud.

Dr. ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St. #6Portland, OR 97211Ph: 503-788-6800c: 503-889-6204

Re: Supine vs. Prone and Hypotension

In a message dated 8/14/2006 2:27:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, sharronf@... writes:

Yes, I see that. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what the comparative supine vs. prone BP was in those alleging stroke from manipulation ?That is very interesting - I would like to know what percent of CVA occur with adjusting in the prone vs. supine position. Hhhmmmmm Anglen