Re: If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

[Guest guest]

“…The body is able to

control Ph, blood pressure, ect”

Here is the problem with your thesis. A healthy, properly nourished,

non-traumatized body is able to maintain homeostasis. However, with

trauma, poor nutrition, toxic abuse, poor fitness, over-exercise…problems

happen. Thus, patients have hypertension, low gastic HCl, improper GI

flora, diabetes, and joint dysfunction/subluxation, often due to

over-compensation or poor repair (again d/t nutrition, trauma…)

Even with proper soft-tissue healing you have shortening of tissues, which can

change the axis of motion within joints, decrease joint motion and lead to

muscular and flexibility imbalance. Not to mention the potential of TrP

formation or other complications. Look at the forward head posture

patient? How smart is the body in this individual? Can we adjust

the person into proper aligment? No, but adjusting is part of the

process, as is therapeutic exercise, supports and positioning apparatus.

The idea is to work with the wisdom of the body, and not overpower or

attack it. Proper adjusting to restore motion at hypomobile or fixated

joints is appropriate. Blasting for audibles for fun and profit, maybe

not. Another reason why a conscientious chiropractor will always be the

choice above other providers of manipulation; we (should) listen to the body

and work with it.

Seitz, DC

Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak Street

Hillsboro,

OR 97123

(503)640-3724

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Brad Welker

Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006

11:48 AM

Subject: If we believe

fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

Two well accepted theories within the

chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither

theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both

theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either one.

Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted as the

primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must first

believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to " put it

back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body to

be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint " out of

alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case,

realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is able

to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing

a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense in this

case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why does a

joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free

cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these circumstances

it would be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a

meniscal entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding

mechanism and pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle

guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2)

guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve

tone. Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we

as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an

unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I

can't think of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a

cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate

intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many

hundreds of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught

in schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I

am sure that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was

round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of

the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as you read

this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we

go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time

to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment,

etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

Brad Welker, D.C.,

Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

[Guest guest]

Interesting commentary : so does this mean that we have no business treating either malpositions or fixations ?

sharron fuchs dc

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Brad WelkerSent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:48 AM Subject: If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

Two well accepted theories within the chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to "put it back in". Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint "out of alignment" but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage "joint mice", etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

[Guest guest]

Brad, your hypothesis is interesting BUT has not taken into consideration the entire situaton. Many of our systems can get stuck in positive feedback loops. Normally, to maintain homeostasis, we use a negaitve feedback system. T(he BP rises and your body makes corrections to lower it.) But DIS-EASE is just that, the inability to cause a correction or actually a worsening is made worse. Example; diabetes and the liver produces more glycogen despite the already elevated blood glucose.

Your argument assumes the superiority of innate over all environmental influences both external and internal. Traditional chiropractic thinking does not. It is the universal intelligence that has no limitations except expression in living syslems.

Colwell

If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

Two well accepted theories within the chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to "put it back in". Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint "out of alignment" but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage "joint mice", etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

[Guest guest]

Ok...where are you "three amigos from" e.g., where do you practice? Validate to us colleagues on the list-serve reading your post that you have actually seen patients beyond the college clinic(s) please...what town to you practice in?.... Could you be new graduates.....big leap of faith here...not!

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Lobbyist, Executive Board Member

Chiropractic Assoc. of Oregon

915 SE 19th Ave

Albany, Oregon 97322

If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

Two well accepted theories within the chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to "put it back in". Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint "out of alignment" but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage "joint mice", etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

[Guest guest]

The most productive orchard is the one which has been properly pruned, not the one left to nature alone.... SearsNW PDXOn Nov 3, 2006, at 11:48 AM, Brad Welker wrote:I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue.  It is your choice, if you choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail. Red Pill-  Follow me down the rabbit trail......  Two well accepted theories within the chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields.  Unfortunately, neither theory was very well thought out.  Many practitioners believe both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either one.  Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation.  To believe this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to "put it back in".  Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body to be unintelligent.  What if, the body did not pull the joint "out of alignment" but into alignment to help stabilize.  In this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body.  The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent.  Common sense in this case seem to contradict malposition.  Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?  Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage "joint mice", etc.  Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the fixation.  If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to protect.  Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone.  Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system.  Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice?  Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you do.  The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth.  I am sure that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this.  There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go.  I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to digest this information.  I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world. Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.   

[Guest guest]

Interesting... But, here we go...trying to say all things are one thing; and one thing is all things.

I seem to recall a study where two vertebral segments in rabbits were bolted together. After a period of time, the rabbits were sacrificed and the two IMMOBILIZED segments demonstrated what we recognize as "degenerative arthritis" while the surrounding segments were unchanged.

Cartilage is essentially an avascular tissue that requires MOVEMENT in order to imbibe nutrients. Remove movement (i.e., fixation, tight muscles, scoliosis, lack of exercise) and degeneration will follow.

Consider elderly persons who are incredibly stiff. Did they get arthritis and THEN get stiff...or did they get "stiff" (lack of function and mobility) and then develop arthritis? I suggest immobilization comes first.

Some 80 year old people run marathons. Why aren't they full of arthritis? Are they able to run because they don't have arthritis...or do they not have arthritis because they run?

See, we just need to RELAX and let each of the various effects of the "adjustment" stand alone, and be recognized. Let's not be reductionistic. There's room for the mobilization right along side the reflexive muscle relaxation, substance-P, proprioceptive stimulation, blood flow and circulation, endorphins and enkephalins, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Oh yeah, and then there's the "MAGIC" that happens that we haven't even measured yet! (:-)

RR.

If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

Two well accepted theories within the chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to "put it back in". Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint "out of alignment" but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage "joint mice", etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

[Guest guest]

Salter's work whom developed the continuous passive motion units....

Vern

If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

Two well accepted theories within the chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to "put it back in". Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint "out of alignment" but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage "joint mice", etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

[Guest guest]

Okay, i'll bite,

Can it be possible that you have never discussed this topic until now? Your post unfortunately displays a major cleft in your education as opposed to the opposite. This topic was of great debate and philosophical discussion in chiropractic college. Perhaps you (with your supreme knowledge) should have thought of this before attaining the DC behind your name.

Without giving to much credence to your post, it may behoove you to understand that the body many times "over-reacts" or compensates etc. etc. and needs an outside stimulus to assist in attaining a true and healthy equilibrium. Your post would indicate that the body should not be mettled with at all. Forget the ice, throw away the heat, the casts, supports, nutritional supplementation for the body will take care of it all. Under your "round world theory" it's hard to understand what you would adjust.

Sorry for my tone, but somehow i think this is what you're after.

Dr. ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St. #6Portland, OR 97211Ph: 503-788-6800c: 503-889-6204

If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

Two well accepted theories within the chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to "put it back in". Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint "out of alignment" but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage "joint mice", etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to digest this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a round world.

Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

[Guest guest]

Dr. Medlin,

I appreciate your e-mail and would like to reply to each of your

statements.

" Can it be possible that you have never discussed this topic until

now? Your post unfortunately displays a major cleft in your

education as opposed to the opposite. This topic was of great debate

and philosophical discussion in chiropractic college. Perhaps you

(with your supreme knowledge) should have thought of this before

attaining the DC behind your name. "

***I have discussed this topic with DC's, and MD's. I agree, my post

does display a major cleft in my education/belief as compared to the

majority. This subject has been of great discussion and for the most

part has been swallowed by many because as of yet no one has

challenged the theory and application. I do not believe I have

supreme knowledge, and am still willing to learn. If you have any

thoughts or real understanding in regards to malposition/ fixation I

would be more than happy to hear them. I did not come to this

understanding until after I had become a DC, mostly came to this

understanding through much frustration as a DC.

" Without giving to much credence to your post, it may behoove you to

understand that the body many times " over-reacts " or compensates

etc. etc.and needs an outside stimulus to assist in attaining a true

and healthy equilibrium. "

***This is exactly what I am talking about. What you have been

taught is that the body " over-reacts " , which means that it is wrong.

When a joint, disc, muscle has been injured the body will go into a

natural guarding mechanism to splint and protect the injury. Does

this mean that the body is wrong or that we have mis-read the

situation. I would hope that if you stepped on a tack you would

react by lifting your leg, does this mean that you over-reacted? I

do not think that outside help is wrong and I am sorry if you read it

as such. What I am saying is that the body will heal much faster if

we work with it instead of against it, ie- work with the natural

guarding mechanism.

" Your post would indicate that the body should not be mettled with at

all. Forget the ice, throw away the heat, the casts, supports,

nutritional supplementation for the body will take care of it all. "

***Yes and no. We can provide much needed help to many patients, but

correctly. It doesn't make much sense to break a guarding mechanism

when the guarding mechanism is meant to stabilize. If we manipulate

correctly we work with the body, if we manipulate incorrectly we slow

the process and even create instability.

I understand your tone, I expected it. I appreciate your e-mail and

look forward to further discussion.

Brad Welker, D.C.

>

> Okay, i'll bite,

>

> Can it be possible that you have never discussed this topic until

now? Your post unfortunately displays a major cleft in your

education as opposed to the opposite. This topic was of great debate

and philosophical discussion in chiropractic college. Perhaps you

(with your supreme knowledge) should have thought of this before

attaining the DC behind your name.

>

> Without giving to much credence to your post, it may behoove you to

understand that the body many times " over-reacts " or compensates

etc. etc. and needs an outside stimulus to assist in attaining a true

and healthy equilibrium. Your post would indicate that the body

should not be mettled with at all. Forget the ice, throw away the

heat, the casts, supports, nutritional supplementation for the body

will take care of it all. Under your " round world theory " it's hard

to understand what you would adjust.

>

> Sorry for my tone, but somehow i think this is what you're after.

>

> Dr. ph Medlin D.C.

> Spine Tree Chiropractic

> 1627 NE Alberta St. #6

> Portland, OR 97211

> Ph: 503-788-6800

> c: 503-889-6204

> If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

also believe the world is still flat!

>

>

> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

>

> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

>

> Two well accepted theories within the

chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe

both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has

become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe

this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not

intelligent enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as

long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body

did not pull the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help

stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work

against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure,

ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes

unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict

malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?

Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " ,

etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to

push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would

we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body

is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1)

guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint

instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we

believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any

logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/

joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is

more intelligent than you do.

>

> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round

and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out

of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me

as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but

here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you

need some time to digest this information. I have much, much

(assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a

round world.

>

> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thank you for your response. I think we may be putting the cart

before the horse. It is hard to prune the orchard when we are

standing in the desert. If our treatment is aimed to treat

malposition/ fixation (which as far as I am concerned does not

logically exist) then we mislead ourselves and the patient. This is

not the first treatment/theory that has had to be corrected or

changed. For many years physicians performed frontal lobotomies to

let demons out of the body, I am sure this productive orchard also

seemed logical at the time.

Thank you,

Brad Welker, D.C.

>

> >

> > I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if

you

> > choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to

take

> > the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> >

> > Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> >

> > Two well accepted theories within the chiropractic/manipulation/

> > mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither theory was very

well

> > thought out. Many practitioners believe both theories to be

> > correct, mostly because they don't understand either one.

> > Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become

accepted

> > as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we

> > must first believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent

> > enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as long as

we

> > believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not

> > pull the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help

> > stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work

> > against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood

pressure,

> > ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes

> > unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict

> > malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?

> > Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint

mice " ,

> > etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be

contraindicated

> > to push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment

why

> > would we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain

that

> > the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3

basic

> > reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary

to

> > joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again,

if

> > we believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors

are

> > correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

> > system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of

> > any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage

> > tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate

> > intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

> >

> > The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

of

> > years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> > schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour

the

> > unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am

sure

> > that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was

> > round and that there were no sea creatures they would have been

> > laughed out of the schools and called many names that you are

> > probably calling me as you read this. There is no nice way to

> > change a paradigm, but here we go. I look forward to your

> > comments, I understand if you need some time to digest this

> > information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.)

more,

> > welcome to correct theory and a round world.

> >

> > Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Saboe,

Don't understand, please explain.

Thank You,

Brad Welker, D.C.

>

> Salter's work whom developed the continuous passive motion

units....

>

> Vern

> If we believe fixation/ malposition we

must also believe the world is still flat!

>

>

> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if

you choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to

take the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

>

> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

>

> Two well accepted theories within the

chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe

both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has

become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe

this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not

intelligent enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as

long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body

did not pull the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help

stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work

against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure,

ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes

unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict

malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?

Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " ,

etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to

push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would

we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body

is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1)

guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint

instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we

believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any

logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/

joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is

more intelligent than you do.

>

> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round

and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out

of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me

as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but

here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you

need some time to digest this information. I have much, much

(assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a

round world.

>

> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thank you for your response, I appreciate the thought you put into

it.

First of all, I don't claim to fully understand the entire situation

of any one system but I do feel that I have an understanding of parts

of the system that others are missing.

I do not believe the body gets " stuck " , I do believe that operator

error can occur and that a person can get stuck into negative habits

that can harm the body. You have used the example of diabetes. I

would first like to say that developmental failures such as type I

diabetes, cancer, hearing loss, poor vision do occur. Type I

diabetes the body produces none or not enough insulin, either way the

body needs glucose but it can not be transported. In this case the

body is not " stuck " , it is working toward homeostasis by trying to

normalize the system by producing more and more glucose. Type II

diabetes is essentially funcional or " operator error " . Even in this

case the receptors have been damaged due to poor life style, once

again the body is trying to normalize the system by producing more

and more glucose. In this case, if the operator changes their life

style the system will also change and Type II diabetes will go into

remission or modification. If the system were " stuck " they would

continue to have Type II diabetes.

I do not believe the " innate " is superior over all. The body will

continue to work toward homeostasis even with continued abuse but

will ultimately fail at which point we call it disease- example

diabetes. Universal intelligence (GOD) has no limitations, I

personally believe we were made to work toward homeostasis- stability

and not away from. I guess in this case I believe GOD is smarter

than we are.

Thank you, look forward to continued discussion.

Brad Welker, D.C.

>

> Brad, your hypothesis is interesting BUT has not taken into

consideration the entire situaton. Many of our systems can get stuck

in positive feedback loops. Normally, to maintain homeostasis, we use

a negaitve feedback system. T(he BP rises and your body makes

corrections to lower it.) But DIS-EASE is just that, the inability to

cause a correction or actually a worsening is made worse. Example;

diabetes and the liver produces more glycogen despite the already

elevated blood glucose.

> Your argument assumes the superiority of innate over all

environmental influences both external and internal. Traditional

chiropractic thinking does not. It is the universal intelligence that

has no limitations except expression in living syslems.

> Colwell

> If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

also believe the world is still flat!

>

>

> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

>

> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

>

> Two well accepted theories within the

chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe

both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has

become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe

this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not

intelligent enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as

long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body

did not pull the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help

stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work

against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure,

ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes

unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict

malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?

Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " ,

etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to

push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would

we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body

is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1)

guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint

instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we

believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any

logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/

joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is

more intelligent than you do.

>

> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round

and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out

of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me

as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but

here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you

need some time to digest this information. I have much, much

(assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a

round world.

>

> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

What I am saying is that malposition/fixation does not exist,

therefore treatment of malposition/fixation must be questioned. I am

not saying that manipulation/mobilization should not be performed,

when performed against the body's protective mechanism can cause more

irritation, failure, or slow the process.

Thank you,

Brad Welker, D.C.

>

> Interesting commentary : so does this mean that we have no business

> treating either malpositions or fixations ?

>

>

> sharron fuchs dc

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: [mailto: ]

On

> Behalf Of Brad Welker

> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:48 AM

>

> Subject: If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

also

> believe the world is still flat!

>

>

>

> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

choose

> to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the

blue

> pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

>

> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

>

> Two well accepted theories within the

> chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

neither

> theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both

> theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either

one.

> Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted

as

> the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must

first

> believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to " put it

> back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body

to be

> unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint " out of

> alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case,

> realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is

> able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to

> stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense

in

> this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why

does a

> joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free

> cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these circumstances it

would

> be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a

meniscal

> entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism

and

> pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs

for 3

> basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding

secondary to

> joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if

we

> believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

correct

> then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system.

Joint

> mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical

reason why

> we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply

put, I

> believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you

do.

>

> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of

> years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

schools,

> everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting

> traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during

this

> time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there

were

> no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and

> called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this.

> There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I look

> forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to

digest

> this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.)

more,

> welcome to correct theory and a round world.

>

> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you,

I appreciate your response. You have many thoughts in your response,

I would like to respond to each.

" The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect " Here is the

problem

with your thesis. A healthy, properly nourished, non-traumatized body

is

able to maintain homeostasis. However, with trauma, poor nutrition,

toxic

abuse, poor fitness, over-exercise. problems happen. Thus, patients

have

hypertension, low gastic HCl, improper GI flora, diabetes,

***Working beyond the bounds of the body leads to failure of any

system. Even in a state of failure the body will work to normalize

itself, it does this to ensure function and life. I agree with your

statement.

and joint

dysfunction/ subluxation, often due to over-compensation or poor

repair

***This statement I do not agree with. What you call joint

dysfunction I call function. My Definition of Biomechanics: The

ability of a living structure to dynamically adapt for continued

function and life. This does not mean that the physical structure

can not become irritated or fail. Unfortunately, the failure is what

we treat to ensure continued patient function and stability. The

problem comes when we call joint fixation/malposition dysfunction or

bad/wrong function. What I am saying is that " fixation "

and " malposition " are completely normal and should not be changed.

When we work against the natural guarding mechanism we

create " dysfunction " and dysharmony with the body. Ironic. What

many call over-compensation I call normal compensation. I call this

biomechanics, the problem is that you are comparing someone with

injury to someone without. If we only look at modification of

posture and gait we would assume that the persons muscles and body

are in dysharmony. In reality, the muscles will work exactly as hard

as they need to in order to stabilize the body. If I put a tack in

your shoe I would expect that when you put your foot down your body

would have a pain response and a normal guarding mechanism would

occur, do we call this over-compensation? Lastly, poor repair

(outside of pathology) comes from operator error. What I mean is

that a person will continue to tear off their internal scab and work

outside of the bounds of the body.

(again d/t nutrition, trauma.) Even with proper soft-tissue healing

you

have shortening of tissues, which can change the axis of motion within

joints, decrease joint motion and lead to muscular and flexibility

imbalance.

***Modification of motion is normal post injury, this has become the

problem. We all know the ranges of motion of the neck and typically

compare our patients to this norm. It would be expected with soft

tissue/joint trauma for the body to have been modified and through

biomechanics work toward stability. Unfortunately, the body works

toward stability and function and not toward a written norm.

Obviously I am kidding but my point is that what we call imbalance is

actually balance. Look at someone whom has lost a limb or become

paralysed, major biomechanical changes occur, should we call these

changes imbalance? It is amazing to see how the body will shift

muscular strength in order to ensure function.

Not to mention the potential of TrP formation or other

complications. Look at the forward head posture patient? How smart is

the

body in this individual?

***TrP we can talk about at another time. First of all, if we look

at what is textbook normal for spinal curve and alignment what we

quickly realize is that this normal is the anomoly. When we try to

treat a spinal curve what we end up treating is the smoke behind the

fire or nothing at all. In this case we become aesthetic technicians

instead of physicians. This is not to say that operator error

(someone puposefully and harmfully irritating their body) will not

eventually lead to failure. In this case we need to treat the injury

and teach the person not to hurt themselves.

Can we adjust the person into proper aligment?

No, but adjusting is part of the process, as is therapeutic exercise,

supports and positioning apparatus.

***No, we can not adjust into proper alignment because they are

always in proper alignment. In this case we can't say no, then say

but adjusting is part of the process. You should explain yourself as

to why adjusting is part of the process, then we will see your theory.

The idea is to work with the wisdom of the body, and not overpower or

attack

it. Proper adjusting to restore motion at hypomobile or fixated

joints is

appropriate.

***Proper adjusting- please explain. This is obviously your theory,

I mean fixation. I have already touched on the restore motion-

fixation idea. If you do not understand I would be happy to explain

further why fixation does not work.

Blasting for audibles for fun and profit, maybe not. Another

reason why a conscientious chiropractor will always be the choice

above

other providers of manipulation; we (should) listen to the body and

work

with it.

***Of course no one would want to go to a surgeon that was going to

just " cut some things " but even the conscientious surgeon that thinks

he knows what he is doing when he does not can do just as much harm.

I agree with you, " we (should) listen to the body and work

with it " , this is what I am trying to say.

Thank you very much for taking your time to chat, I would love to

talk more.

Thank you,

>

> " .The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect " Here is

the problem

> with your thesis. A healthy, properly nourished, non-traumatized

body is

> able to maintain homeostasis. However, with trauma, poor

nutrition, toxic

> abuse, poor fitness, over-exercise.problems happen. Thus, patients

have

> hypertension, low gastic HCl, improper GI flora, diabetes, and joint

> dysfunction/subluxation, often due to over-compensation or poor

repair

> (again d/t nutrition, trauma.) Even with proper soft-tissue

healing you

> have shortening of tissues, which can change the axis of motion

within

> joints, decrease joint motion and lead to muscular and flexibility

> imbalance. Not to mention the potential of TrP formation or other

> complications. Look at the forward head posture patient? How

smart is the

> body in this individual? Can we adjust the person into proper

aligment?

> No, but adjusting is part of the process, as is therapeutic

exercise,

> supports and positioning apparatus.

>

>

>

> The idea is to work with the wisdom of the body, and not overpower

or attack

> it. Proper adjusting to restore motion at hypomobile or fixated

joints is

> appropriate. Blasting for audibles for fun and profit, maybe not.

Another

> reason why a conscientious chiropractor will always be the choice

above

> other providers of manipulation; we (should) listen to the body and

work

> with it.

>

>

>

> Seitz, DC

>

> Tuality Physicians

>

> 730-D SE Oak Street

>

> Hillsboro, OR 97123

>

> (503)640-3724

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf

> Of Brad Welker

> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:48 AM

>

> Subject: If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

also

> believe the world is still flat!

>

>

>

> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

choose to

> continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the blue

pill stop

> reading and close this e-mail.

>

>

>

> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

>

>

>

> Two well accepted theories within the

chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization

> fields. Unfortunately, neither theory was very well thought out.

Many

> practitioners believe both theories to be correct, mostly because

they don't

> understand either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal

position has

> become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe

this

> theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not

intelligent

> enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we

believe

> the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the

joint " out

> of alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case,

> realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body

is able to

> control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to stabilizing

a simple

> joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to

> contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become

fixated?

> Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " ,

etc.

> Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to

push through

> the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would we want to

work

> against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body is trying to

protect.

> Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary

to strain,

> 2) guarding secondary to joint instability, 3) neuritis or

increased nerve

> tone. Again, if we believe that the body is first wrong and we as

> chiropractors are correct then we manipulate what we believe is an

> unintelligent system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I

can't think

> of any logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage

tear/

> joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence

is more

> intelligent than you do.

>

>

>

> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of

years,

> scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in schools,

everyone

> knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting

traveler that

> would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during this time had

someone

> mentioned that the world was round and that there were no sea

creatures they

> would have been laughed out of the schools and called many names

that you

> are probably calling me as you read this. There is no nice way to

change a

> paradigm, but here we go. I look forward to your comments, I

understand if

> you need some time to digest this information. I have much, much

> (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a

round

> world.

>

>

>

> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

>

[Guest guest]

It would appear that Dr Welker has never seen hyper and hypo mobile segments

secondary to a davis series or other x-ray evidence of malposition, can you

say spondy, cervical curve reversal, ad nausea.....

Let's see, an initial post from a malcontent crying wolf for an absurdity.

Like my father used to say " ya just can't argue with insanity " .

Deletefully yours,

Dr B

If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

> also

>> believe the world is still flat!

>>

>>

>>

>> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

> choose

>> to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the

> blue

>> pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

>>

>> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

>>

>> Two well accepted theories within the

>> chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

> neither

>> theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe both

>> theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand either

> one.

>> Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become accepted

> as

>> the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we must

> first

>> believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough to " put it

>> back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we believe the body

> to be

>> unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint " out of

>> alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case,

>> realigning the malposition would work against the body. The body is

>> able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to

>> stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common sense

> in

>> this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why

> does a

>> joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free

>> cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these circumstances it

> would

>> be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a

> meniscal

>> entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding mechanism

> and

>> pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs

> for 3

>> basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding

> secondary to

>> joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if

> we

>> believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

> correct

>> then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system.

> Joint

>> mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical

> reason why

>> we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply

> put, I

>> believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than you

> do.

>>

>> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds of

>> years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> schools,

>> everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the unexpecting

>> traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during

> this

>> time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that there

> were

>> no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools and

>> called many names that you are probably calling me as you read this.

>> There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I look

>> forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to

> digest

>> this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment, etc.)

> more,

>> welcome to correct theory and a round world.

>>

>> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

>>

>

>

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

> members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

> or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without

> his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

[Guest guest]

Hate to see anyone have to eat words, crow, their heart out, etc.

For the latest in current research that supports chiropractic’s unique role in health care and addresses the issues you guys are discussing, got to:

http://thewellnesspractice.com/

Chestnut is like Dan . He must have a clone who spent about 50 years just reading physiology and neurology literature.

( E. Abrahamson, D.C.)

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: correct_theory <correct_theory@...>

Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 18:22:12 -0000

< >

Subject: Re: Fw: If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

Dr. s,

Again thank you for your response. I appreciate your comments and

again would like to respond to each.

WOW...LOL! I guess (if I'm understanding YOU correctly), we're in

complete agreement then aren't we DOC!

*I answered your last e-mail, some things I definetely agreed with

and others I disagreed with. It may be a good idea for you to re-

read the e-mail if you read it as me agreeing with everything you had

to say.

BTW...have you ever been to the mid-west, or the salt flats? Even in

a round world there are FLAT places... If you live in the mid-

west...YOUR world is flat! V E R Y , V E R Y F L A T . . .

*Not sure if you are upset and just taking a personal jab, this part

didn't make much sense.

Now...we could debate the meaning of " flat " (which, I'm sure you

will but the world isn't round. It's made up of high places, low

places and flat places. Just like Chiropractic.

*This sort of rhetoric has become the standard for chiropractic and

also our most vulernable point. My original point is that a flawed

theory, round world, can continue to be explained away for many years

but still does not make the theory correct. What I am really asking

you to do is to examine your beliefs, if by examination it makes them

stronger- great, if by chance you se some flaw- great.

In fact, Dr. Columbus, the WORLD isn't round at all.... The EARTH is

in fact mostly spherical. But, the earth is not the WORLD now is

it? You live and function in a different world than I do; different

than does everyone else who reads this.

*This is true.

So, when you say " welcome to correct theory and a round world, " as

funny, egotistical and all-knowing as that sounds...your just

espousing to US about YOUR world. None of us share the same world or

reality...

*I am glad you took the statement as funny, this was its intention.

In order to get your attention and incite some response I had to make

it egotistical and all knowing. In reality I do not believe I know

all things, which is why I continued to study, study today and felt

it was important to start with the basis of our beliefs-malposition/

fixation. What I am trying to tell you is that the foundation of the

house is flawed, not just for you but for me as well. I have studied

hard and am willing to share with you what I know and have learned.

You may be taking my statements lightly, I have waited 2 years to

have this discussion with you.

So, doctor, if the world ISN'T round, what's that say about the rest

of your " correct theory? "

*Hard to apply direct correlation from one analogy to another.

RR. (And, hey, look...I'm not challenging you. You believe what you

want. I'm happy you're confident in your theories. I just hope

you're a good Chiropractor, help lots of people, support the

profession with time, talent and MONEY, and don't stop learning.

Remember, Columbus " knew " the earth was round; but he was really

trying to find the treasures of India...he never made it to India.

So, he failed in his mission; and he died crippled with arthritis.)

*Thank you, I am much more happy now knowing some of the truth and

not feeling like I have to sell patients on the fact they have some

kind of misalignment/ fixation when they really had a capsular tear,

disc tear, muscular strain, etc. I hope your last statement was not

meant to say that I am looking for some kind of treasure, if it were

I would not be openly talking about my beliefs. I don't think

Columbus was a very good person, at this point you know nothing of me

other than the fact that you don't agree with what I am saying.

Please don't wish upon me that I die crippled with arthritis, thanks.

I am not asking you to agree with everything I say, just to question.

Thanks, look forward to continued discussion.

Brad Welker, D.C.

>

> WOW...LOL! I guess (if I'm understanding YOU correctly), we're in

complete agreement then aren't we DOC!

>

> BTW...have you ever been to the mid-west, or the salt flats? Even

in a round world there are FLAT places... If you live in the mid-

west...YOUR world is flat! V E R Y , V E R Y F L A T . . .

>

> Now...we could debate the meaning of " flat " (which, I'm sure you

will but the world isn't round. It's made up of high places, low

places and flat places. Just like Chiropractic.

>

> In fact, Dr. Columbus, the WORLD isn't round at all.... The EARTH

is in fact mostly spherical. But, the earth is not the WORLD now is

it? You live and function in a different world than I do; different

than does everyone else who reads this.

>

> So, when you say " welcome to correct theory and a round world, " as

funny, egotistical and all-knowing as that sounds...your just

espousing to US about YOUR world. None of us share the same world or

reality...

>

> So, doctor, if the world ISN'T round, what's that say about the

rest of your " correct theory? "

>

> RR. (And, hey, look...I'm not challenging you. You believe what

you want. I'm happy you're confident in your theories. I just hope

you're a good Chiropractor, help lots of people, support the

profession with time, talent and MONEY, and don't stop learning.

Remember, Columbus " knew " the earth was round; but he was really

trying to find the treasures of India...he never made it to India.

So, he failed in his mission; and he died crippled with arthritis.)

>

>

>

> If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

also believe the world is still flat!

>

>

>

> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

>

> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

>

> Two well accepted theories within the

chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe

both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has

become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe

this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not

intelligent enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as

long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body

did not pull the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help

stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work

against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure,

ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes

unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict

malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?

Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " ,

etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated to

push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would

we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the body

is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons; 1)

guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint

instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we

believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any

logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/

joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is

more intelligent than you do.

>

> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round

and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed out

of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling me

as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but

here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you

need some time to digest this information. I have much, much

(assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a

round world.

>

> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Abrahamson,

Went to Dr. Chestnut's web site was not able to find any specific

information regarding malposition/fixation or his thoughts. If you

could e-mail me his information I would love to read it.

Thank you,

Brad Welker, D.C.

> >

> > WOW...LOL! I guess (if I'm understanding YOU correctly), we're in

> complete agreement then aren't we DOC!

> >

> > BTW...have you ever been to the mid-west, or the salt flats? Even

> in a round world there are FLAT places... If you live in the mid-

> west...YOUR world is flat! V E R Y , V E R Y F L A T . . .

> >

> > Now...we could debate the meaning of " flat " (which, I'm sure you

> will but the world isn't round. It's made up of high places, low

> places and flat places. Just like Chiropractic.

> >

> > In fact, Dr. Columbus, the WORLD isn't round at all.... The EARTH

> is in fact mostly spherical. But, the earth is not the WORLD now is

> it? You live and function in a different world than I do; different

> than does everyone else who reads this.

> >

> > So, when you say " welcome to correct theory and a round world, " as

> funny, egotistical and all-knowing as that sounds...your just

> espousing to US about YOUR world. None of us share the same world

or

> reality...

> >

> > So, doctor, if the world ISN'T round, what's that say about the

> rest of your " correct theory? "

> >

> > RR. (And, hey, look...I'm not challenging you. You believe what

> you want. I'm happy you're confident in your theories. I just hope

> you're a good Chiropractor, help lots of people, support the

> profession with time, talent and MONEY, and don't stop learning.

> Remember, Columbus " knew " the earth was round; but he was really

> trying to find the treasures of India...he never made it to India.

> So, he failed in his mission; and he died crippled with arthritis.)

> >

> >

> >

> > If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

> also believe the world is still flat!

> >

> >

> >

> > I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if

you

> choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

> the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> >

> > Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> >

> > Two well accepted theories within the

> chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

> neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners

believe

> both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

> either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has

> become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe

> this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not

> intelligent enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as

> long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body

> did not pull the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help

> stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work

> against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure,

> ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes

> unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict

> malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?

> Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " ,

> etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated

to

> push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would

> we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the

body

> is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons;

1)

> guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint

> instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we

> believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

> correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

> system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any

> logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/

> joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is

> more intelligent than you do.

> >

> > The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

> of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

> unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

> that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round

> and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed

out

> of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling

me

> as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but

> here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you

> need some time to digest this information. I have much, much

> (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a

> round world.

> >

> > Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry Dr. Welker. It’s a map not a ride. You have to pay for the books or seminars.

Best of luck though.

( E. Abrahamson, D.C.)

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: correct_theory <correct_theory@...>

Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 19:43:38 -0000

< >

Subject: Re: If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also believe the world is still flat!

Dr. Abrahamson,

Went to Dr. Chestnut's web site was not able to find any specific

information regarding malposition/fixation or his thoughts. If you

could e-mail me his information I would love to read it.

Thank you,

Brad Welker, D.C.

> >

> > WOW...LOL! I guess (if I'm understanding YOU correctly), we're in

> complete agreement then aren't we DOC!

> >

> > BTW...have you ever been to the mid-west, or the salt flats? Even

> in a round world there are FLAT places... If you live in the mid-

> west...YOUR world is flat! V E R Y , V E R Y F L A T . . .

> >

> > Now...we could debate the meaning of " flat " (which, I'm sure you

> will but the world isn't round. It's made up of high places, low

> places and flat places. Just like Chiropractic.

> >

> > In fact, Dr. Columbus, the WORLD isn't round at all.... The EARTH

> is in fact mostly spherical. But, the earth is not the WORLD now is

> it? You live and function in a different world than I do; different

> than does everyone else who reads this.

> >

> > So, when you say " welcome to correct theory and a round world, " as

> funny, egotistical and all-knowing as that sounds...your just

> espousing to US about YOUR world. None of us share the same world

or

> reality...

> >

> > So, doctor, if the world ISN'T round, what's that say about the

> rest of your " correct theory? "

> >

> > RR. (And, hey, look...I'm not challenging you. You believe what

> you want. I'm happy you're confident in your theories. I just hope

> you're a good Chiropractor, help lots of people, support the

> profession with time, talent and MONEY, and don't stop learning.

> Remember, Columbus " knew " the earth was round; but he was really

> trying to find the treasures of India...he never made it to India.

> So, he failed in his mission; and he died crippled with arthritis.)

> >

> >

> >

> > If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

> also believe the world is still flat!

> >

> >

> >

> > I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if

you

> choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

> the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> >

> > Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> >

> > Two well accepted theories within the

> chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

> neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners

believe

> both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

> either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has

> become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe

> this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not

> intelligent enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works as

> long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the body

> did not pull the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to help

> stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work

> against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure,

> ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes

> unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict

> malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?

> Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " ,

> etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated

to

> push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why would

> we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the

body

> is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons;

1)

> guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint

> instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we

> believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

> correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

> system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any

> logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/

> joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence is

> more intelligent than you do.

> >

> > The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

> of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

> unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

> that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was round

> and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed

out

> of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling

me

> as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but

> here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you

> need some time to digest this information. I have much, much

> (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and a

> round world.

> >

> > Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Your underlying premise just doesn't make sense to me. It seems you are

promoting the concept of " leave it alone, it will fix itself " . I don't

agree, and in my 18 years of practice and reading of numerous studies I've

never come across such a hypothesis with regards to manual medicine. Even

chiropractic " enemies " do not advocate this. A fixation does not allow

proper joint motion. A proper adjustment is within normal limits of joint

motion and does not injure. Have you ever motion palpated a neck? Can you

feel the normal motion vs. the hypomobile or fixated segments? Have you

adjusted and then re-palpated to find " normal " (sorry to use the word)

motion or joint-play where previously there was a hard end-feel. Have you

experienced the amazing subjective response from the patient? Often not

only improved sense of mobility but lack of presenting headache, dizziness,

brain fog??? I utilize a device (PulstarFRAS) which further objectifies

joint mobility; it will show definite change between pre/post tx. Just

because a body can adapt doesn't mean we shouldn't find out why it is trying

to adapt, and along with removing or modifying the stressor we are obligated

as providers of true health care to help the body return to optimum

function. An illustration: Women wear fashionable shoes, with pointy toes

and high heals. This makes the rear stick out which we apparently like, but

which jams the lumbosacral facet joints, which over time leads to facetal

hypertrophy, decreased segmental motion, decreased imbibition at the disk,

accelerated spondylosis. We should leave this alone? The scrunched feet

develop bunions, then hallux valgus. We should just let the body take care

of itself? The high heels lead to forward head posture and hyperextension

at C0-1 with upper back pain, headaches and loss of cervical motion. Let

god fix it?

I just don't get it.

Seitz, DC

Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak Street

Hillsboro, OR 97123

(503)640-3724

Re: If we believe fixation/ malposition we must also

believe the world is still flat!

[Guest guest]

Dr. B,

Unfortunately, visualization of a hyper and hypo mobile segment does

not give evidence of a malposition, it only gives evidence that the

segment is hyper and hypo mobile. The other examples such as spondy

and reversed cervical curve are only observatory findings, again

unfortunately still do not tell us about any specific problem.

Very quickly we find that what we consider to be the norm as far as

cervical curve and vertebral alignment compared to the general

population are actually the anomoly. So far to date, there is not a

direct correlation between the amount of misalignment and the amount

of pain and irritation a person should have. By that model, every

person with scoliosis should be in severe debilitating pain.

" initial post from a malcontent crying wolf for an absurdity "

***As I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. This doesn't

mean I don't know what I am talking about.

" ya just can't argue with insanity "

***This part is just rude, name calling will never further your

understanding.

Hope to have further (nice and professional) discussion.

Thanks,

Brad Welker, D.C.

> >>

> >> Interesting commentary : so does this mean that we have no

business

> >> treating either malpositions or fixations ?

> >>

> >>

> >> sharron fuchs dc

> >>

> >> ________________________________

> >>

> >> From:

[mailto: ]

> > On

> >> Behalf Of Brad Welker

> >> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:48 AM

> >>

> >> Subject: If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

> > also

> >> believe the world is still flat!

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

> > choose

> >> to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the

> > blue

> >> pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> >>

> >> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> >>

> >> Two well accepted theories within the

> >> chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

> > neither

> >> theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe

both

> >> theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

either

> > one.

> >> Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become

accepted

> > as

> >> the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we

must

> > first

> >> believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough

to " put it

> >> back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we believe the

body

> > to be

> >> unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint " out of

> >> alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case,

> >> realigning the malposition would work against the body. The

body is

> >> able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to

> >> stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common

sense

> > in

> >> this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why

> > does a

> >> joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free

> >> cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these circumstances it

> > would

> >> be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a

> > meniscal

> >> entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding

mechanism

> > and

> >> pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs

> > for 3

> >> basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding

> > secondary to

> >> joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again,

if

> > we

> >> believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

> > correct

> >> then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system.

> > Joint

> >> mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical

> > reason why

> >> we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply

> > put, I

> >> believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than

you

> > do.

> >>

> >> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

of

> >> years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> > schools,

> >> everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

unexpecting

> >> traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during

> > this

> >> time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that

there

> > were

> >> no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools

and

> >> called many names that you are probably calling me as you read

this.

> >> There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I

look

> >> forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to

> > digest

> >> this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment,

etc.)

> > more,

> >> welcome to correct theory and a round world.

> >>

> >> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > OregonDCs rules:

> > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve

is to

> > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

listserve

> > members will be tolerated.

> > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up

anywhere.

> > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

forward,

> > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

without

> > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

> >

[Guest guest]

Dr. Abrahamson,

Unfortunately, the books and seminars all say the same thing.

Thanks,

Brad Welker, D.C.

> > >

> > > WOW...LOL! I guess (if I'm understanding YOU correctly), we're

in

> > complete agreement then aren't we DOC!

> > >

> > > BTW...have you ever been to the mid-west, or the salt flats?

Even

> > in a round world there are FLAT places... If you live in the mid-

> > west...YOUR world is flat! V E R Y , V E R Y F L A T . . .

> > >

> > > Now...we could debate the meaning of " flat " (which, I'm sure you

> > will but the world isn't round. It's made up of high places,

low

> > places and flat places. Just like Chiropractic.

> > >

> > > In fact, Dr. Columbus, the WORLD isn't round at all.... The

EARTH

> > is in fact mostly spherical. But, the earth is not the WORLD now

is

> > it? You live and function in a different world than I do;

different

> > than does everyone else who reads this.

> > >

> > > So, when you say " welcome to correct theory and a round world, "

as

> > funny, egotistical and all-knowing as that sounds...your just

> > espousing to US about YOUR world. None of us share the same world

> or

> > reality...

> > >

> > > So, doctor, if the world ISN'T round, what's that say about the

> > rest of your " correct theory? "

> > >

> > > RR. (And, hey, look...I'm not challenging you. You believe what

> > you want. I'm happy you're confident in your theories. I just

hope

> > you're a good Chiropractor, help lots of people, support the

> > profession with time, talent and MONEY, and don't stop learning.

> > Remember, Columbus " knew " the earth was round; but he was really

> > trying to find the treasures of India...he never made it to India.

> > So, he failed in his mission; and he died crippled with

arthritis.)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If we believe fixation/ malposition we

must

> > also believe the world is still flat!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if

> you

> > choose to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to

take

> > the blue pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> > >

> > > Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> > >

> > > Two well accepted theories within the

> > chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

> > neither theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners

> believe

> > both theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

> > either one. Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has

> > become accepted as the primary basis of manipulation. To believe

> > this theory we must first believe that the body is wrong and not

> > intelligent enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory works

as

> > long as we believe the body to be unintelligent. What if, the

body

> > did not pull the joint " out of alignment " but into alignment to

help

> > stabilize. In this case, realigning the malposition would work

> > against the body. The body is able to control Ph, blood pressure,

> > ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple joint it becomes

> > unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem to contradict

> > malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint become fixated?

> > Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free cartilage " joint mice " ,

> > etc. Under any of these circumstances it would be contraindicated

> to

> > push through the fixation. If it is a meniscal entrapment why

would

> > we want to work against the guarding mechanism and pain that the

> body

> > is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs for 3 basic reasons;

> 1)

> > guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding secondary to joint

> > instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again, if we

> > believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

> > correct then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

> > system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of

any

> > logical reason why we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/

> > joint mice? Simply put, I believe the body's innate intelligence

is

> > more intelligent than you do.

> > >

> > > The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many

hundreds

> > of years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> > schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

> > unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure

> > that during this time had someone mentioned that the world was

round

> > and that there were no sea creatures they would have been laughed

> out

> > of the schools and called many names that you are probably calling

> me

> > as you read this. There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but

> > here we go. I look forward to your comments, I understand if you

> > need some time to digest this information. I have much, much

> > (assessment, treatment, etc.) more, welcome to correct theory and

a

> > round world.

> > >

> > > Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I have been reading these many posts from a distance

and I was struck by the notion of not working against

the body (which seems to be our error) but working

with the bodies reaction (which seems to be the

" logical " action).

So what about the bodies reaction to say....an

allergy, a severe allergic reaction that say....causes

throat constriction and ultimately death. Seems to me

that the body is over reacting there...should one stop

the treatments that go against the body's " normal "

reaction and aid in the allergic response (ie add to

it since that's the way the body is reacting)? (Kinda

just like working through the spasms to adjust......)

The " correct " theory does not seem to make a whole lot

of sense......just because the body reacts in such a

way does not make it the best. At least thats the way

I see it.....

Garreth

Eugene

--- correct_theory <correct_theory@...> wrote:

> ,

>

> Thank you for your response. I think we may be

> putting the cart

> before the horse. It is hard to prune the orchard

> when we are

> standing in the desert. If our treatment is aimed

> to treat

> malposition/ fixation (which as far as I am

> concerned does not

> logically exist) then we mislead ourselves and the

> patient. This is

> not the first treatment/theory that has had to be

> corrected or

> changed. For many years physicians performed

> frontal lobotomies to

> let demons out of the body, I am sure this

> productive orchard also

> seemed logical at the time.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Brad Welker, D.C.

>

>

>

> >

> > >

> > > I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is

> your choice, if

> you

> > > choose to continue reading take the red pill, if

> you choose to

> take

> > > the blue pill stop reading and close this

> e-mail.

> > >

> > > Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> > >

> > > Two well accepted theories within the

> chiropractic/manipulation/

> > > mobilization fields. Unfortunately, neither

> theory was very

> well

> > > thought out. Many practitioners believe both

> theories to be

> > > correct, mostly because they don't understand

> either one.

> > > Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position

> has become

> accepted

> > > as the primary basis of manipulation. To

> believe this theory we

> > > must first believe that the body is wrong and

> not intelligent

> > > enough to " put it back in " . Malposition theory

> works as long as

> we

> > > believe the body to be unintelligent. What if,

> the body did not

> > > pull the joint " out of alignment " but into

> alignment to help

> > > stabilize. In this case, realigning the

> malposition would work

> > > against the body. The body is able to control

> Ph, blood

> pressure,

> > > ect., but when it comes to stabilizing a simple

> joint it becomes

> > > unintelligent. Common sense in this case seem

> to contradict

> > > malposition. Fixation theory- why does a joint

> become fixated?

> > > Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free

> cartilage " joint

> mice " ,

> > > etc. Under any of these circumstances it would

> be

> contraindicated

> > > to push through the fixation. If it is a

> meniscal entrapment

> why

> > > would we want to work against the guarding

> mechanism and pain

> that

> > > the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding

> occurs for 3

> basic

> > > reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2)

> guarding secondary

> to

> > > joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased

> nerve tone. Again,

> if

> > > we believe that the body is first wrong and we

> as chiropractors

> are

> > > correct then we manipulate what we believe is an

> unintelligent

> > > system. Joint mice- this is a fairly easy one,

> I can't think of

> > > any logical reason why we would manipulate

> against a cartilage

> > > tear/ joint mice? Simply put, I believe the

> body's innate

> > > intelligence is more intelligent than you do.

> > >

> > > The theory of a flat world was well accepted

> for many hundreds

> of

> > > years, scholars wrote books about the subject,

> it was taught in

> > > schools, everyone knew of the sea creatures that

> would devour

> the

> > > unexpecting traveler that would fall off of the

> earth. I am

> sure

> > > that during this time had someone mentioned that

> the world was

> > > round and that there were no sea creatures they

> would have been

> > > laughed out of the schools and called many names

> that you are

> > > probably calling me as you read this. There is

> no nice way to

> > > change a paradigm, but here we go. I look

> forward to your

> > > comments, I understand if you need some time to

> digest this

> > > information. I have much, much (assessment,

> treatment, etc.)

> more,

> > > welcome to correct theory and a round world.

> > >

> > > Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C.,

> Baker, D.C.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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[Guest guest]

Brad ,

Your comment about furthering someone elses' " understanding " is just as

rude. The assumption that the people on this listserve who have been

practicing Chiropractic for 30 years have been in the dark and it's your job

to show them this with a blue/red pill challenge is also rude.

You are providing no alternate theory, but stirring a pot only. Add

alternatives or presumed assumptions from your pet theories and then and

subject them to the same scrutiny. We have heard these same challenges for

30+ years.

Joh Colwell, DC

If we believe fixation/ malposition we must

> > > also

> > >> believe the world is still flat!

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice, if you

> > > choose

> > >> to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take the

> > > blue

> > >> pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> > >>

> > >> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> > >>

> > >> Two well accepted theories within the

> > >> chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields. Unfortunately,

> > > neither

> > >> theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe

> both

> > >> theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

> either

> > > one.

> > >> Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become

> accepted

> > > as

> > >> the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we

> must

> > > first

> > >> believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough

> to " put it

> > >> back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we believe the

> body

> > > to be

> > >> unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the joint " out of

> > >> alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize. In this case,

> > >> realigning the malposition would work against the body. The

> body is

> > >> able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes to

> > >> stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common

> sense

> > > in

> > >> this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory- why

> > > does a

> > >> joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding, free

> > >> cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these circumstances it

> > > would

> > >> be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a

> > > meniscal

> > >> entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding

> mechanism

> > > and

> > >> pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding occurs

> > > for 3

> > >> basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding

> > > secondary to

> > >> joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone. Again,

> if

> > > we

> > >> believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors are

> > > correct

> > >> then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent system.

> > > Joint

> > >> mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical

> > > reason why

> > >> we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice? Simply

> > > put, I

> > >> believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent than

> you

> > > do.

> > >>

> > >> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many hundreds

> of

> > >> years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught in

> > > schools,

> > >> everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

> unexpecting

> > >> traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that during

> > > this

> > >> time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that

> there

> > > were

> > >> no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the schools

> and

> > >> called many names that you are probably calling me as you read

> this.

> > >> There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I

> look

> > >> forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time to

> > > digest

> > >> this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment,

> etc.)

> > > more,

> > >> welcome to correct theory and a round world.

> > >>

> > >> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> > >>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > OregonDCs rules:

> > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve

> is to

> > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> listserve

> > > members will be tolerated.

> > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up

> anywhere.

> > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> forward,

> > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

> without

> > > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

> removed.

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dr. Seitz,

" It seems you are

> promoting the concept of " leave it alone, it will fix itself " . "

***Never said this, just stated there is no misalignment/fixation.

" Even

> chiropractic " enemies " do not advocate this. "

***The " enemies " - MD's?, Straights?, Mixers????? Time for us to put

down the banner of chiropratic and become physicians.

" A proper adjustment is within normal limits of joint

> motion and does not injure. "

***Proper adjustment could mean many things. A small knife can still

do damage.

" Have you ever motion palpated a neck? Can you

> feel the normal motion vs. the hypomobile or fixated segments?

Have you

> adjusted and then re-palpated to find " normal " (sorry to use the

word)

> motion or joint-play where previously there was a hard end-feel.

Have you

> experienced the amazing subjective response from the patient?

Often not

> only improved sense of mobility but lack of presenting headache,

dizziness,

> brain fog??? I utilize a device (PulstarFRAS) which further

objectifies

> joint mobility; it will show definite change between pre/post tx.

Just

> because a body can adapt doesn't mean we shouldn't find out why it

is trying

> to adapt, and along with removing or modifying the stressor we are

obligated

> as providers of true health care to help the body return to optimum

> function. "

***Do you realize to whom you are speaking? You are asking me if I

can feel fixation and normal motion? I am the one that said fixation

does not exist. As I have stated many times, I believe the motion to

be normal. With reduction of irritation you will find that the

person will have increased AROM or maybe not. I don't know about the

fixator 3000/PulstarFRAS, it comes down to what it is telling you.

Guaranteed it comes back to either misalignment or fixation. Your

last statement is correct.

" An illustration: Women wear fashionable shoes, with pointy toes

> and high heals. This makes the rear stick out which we apparently

like, but

> which jams the lumbosacral facet joints, which over time leads to

facetal

> hypertrophy, decreased segmental motion, decreased imbibition at

the disk,

> accelerated spondylosis. We should leave this alone? The

scrunched feet

> develop bunions, then hallux valgus. We should just let the body

take care

> of itself? The high heels lead to forward head posture and

hyperextension

> at C0-1 with upper back pain, headaches and loss of cervical

motion. Let

> god fix it? "

***I think you may be taking a leap here. Not everyone that wears

the fashionable shoes acquires irritation, nor does this waterfall

effect happen with each patient. I have never said leave it alone,

or let GOD fix it. Maybe you should re-read my prior e-mails.

I appreciated your response and the thought you put into it. I look

forward to further discussion.

Brad Welker, D.C.

>

> Your underlying premise just doesn't make sense to me. It seems

you are

> promoting the concept of " leave it alone, it will fix itself " . I

don't

> agree, and in my 18 years of practice and reading of numerous

studies I've

> never come across such a hypothesis with regards to manual

medicine. Even

> chiropractic " enemies " do not advocate this. A fixation does not

allow

> proper joint motion. A proper adjustment is within normal limits

of joint

> motion and does not injure. Have you ever motion palpated a neck?

Can you

> feel the normal motion vs. the hypomobile or fixated segments?

Have you

> adjusted and then re-palpated to find " normal " (sorry to use the

word)

> motion or joint-play where previously there was a hard end-feel.

Have you

> experienced the amazing subjective response from the patient?

Often not

> only improved sense of mobility but lack of presenting headache,

dizziness,

> brain fog??? I utilize a device (PulstarFRAS) which further

objectifies

> joint mobility; it will show definite change between pre/post tx.

Just

> because a body can adapt doesn't mean we shouldn't find out why it

is trying

> to adapt, and along with removing or modifying the stressor we are

obligated

> as providers of true health care to help the body return to optimum

> function. An illustration: Women wear fashionable shoes, with

pointy toes

> and high heals. This makes the rear stick out which we apparently

like, but

> which jams the lumbosacral facet joints, which over time leads to

facetal

> hypertrophy, decreased segmental motion, decreased imbibition at

the disk,

> accelerated spondylosis. We should leave this alone? The

scrunched feet

> develop bunions, then hallux valgus. We should just let the body

take care

> of itself? The high heels lead to forward head posture and

hyperextension

> at C0-1 with upper back pain, headaches and loss of cervical

motion. Let

> god fix it?

>

> I just don't get it.

>

> Seitz, DC

> Tuality Physicians

> 730-D SE Oak Street

> Hillsboro, OR 97123

> (503)640-3724

>

> Re: If we believe fixation/ malposition we

must also

> believe the world is still flat!

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Colwell,

Thank you for your input, at this point I am trying to respond to the

many thoughts. My intention is not to stir the pot but to question

current theory and in this case give you a new thought. As I have

stated before, if this strengthens your current beliefs- great, if

you change your current beliefs- great. Learning has nothing to do

with age or experience.

I will give you more, first need to see where people stand on this

matter.

Thanks,

Brad Welker, D.C.

> > > >>

> > > >> Interesting commentary : so does this mean that we have no

> > business

> > > >> treating either malpositions or fixations ?

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> sharron fuchs dc

> > > >>

> > > >> ________________________________

> > > >>

> > > >> From:

> > [mailto: ]

> > > > On

> > > >> Behalf Of Brad Welker

> > > >> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:48 AM

> > > >>

> > > >> Subject: If we believe fixation/ malposition we

must

> > > > also

> > > >> believe the world is still flat!

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> I give you 2 pills, one red, one blue. It is your choice,

if you

> > > > choose

> > > >> to continue reading take the red pill, if you choose to take

the

> > > > blue

> > > >> pill stop reading and close this e-mail.

> > > >>

> > > >> Red Pill- Follow me down the rabbit trail......

> > > >>

> > > >> Two well accepted theories within the

> > > >> chiropractic/manipulation/mobilization fields.

Unfortunately,

> > > > neither

> > > >> theory was very well thought out. Many practitioners believe

> > both

> > > >> theories to be correct, mostly because they don't understand

> > either

> > > > one.

> > > >> Malposition, meaning wrong or abnormal position has become

> > accepted

> > > > as

> > > >> the primary basis of manipulation. To believe this theory we

> > must

> > > > first

> > > >> believe that the body is wrong and not intelligent enough

> > to " put it

> > > >> back in " . Malposition theory works as long as we believe the

> > body

> > > > to be

> > > >> unintelligent. What if, the body did not pull the

joint " out of

> > > >> alignment " but into alignment to help stabilize. In this

case,

> > > >> realigning the malposition would work against the body. The

> > body is

> > > >> able to control Ph, blood pressure, ect., but when it comes

to

> > > >> stabilizing a simple joint it becomes unintelligent. Common

> > sense

> > > > in

> > > >> this case seem to contradict malposition. Fixation theory-

why

> > > > does a

> > > >> joint become fixated? Meniscal entrapment, muscle guarding,

free

> > > >> cartilage " joint mice " , etc. Under any of these

circumstances it

> > > > would

> > > >> be contraindicated to push through the fixation. If it is a

> > > > meniscal

> > > >> entrapment why would we want to work against the guarding

> > mechanism

> > > > and

> > > >> pain that the body is trying to protect. Muscle guarding

occurs

> > > > for 3

> > > >> basic reasons; 1) guarding secondary to strain, 2) guarding

> > > > secondary to

> > > >> joint instability, 3) neuritis or increased nerve tone.

Again,

> > if

> > > > we

> > > >> believe that the body is first wrong and we as chiropractors

are

> > > > correct

> > > >> then we manipulate what we believe is an unintelligent

system.

> > > > Joint

> > > >> mice- this is a fairly easy one, I can't think of any logical

> > > > reason why

> > > >> we would manipulate against a cartilage tear/ joint mice?

Simply

> > > > put, I

> > > >> believe the body's innate intelligence is more intelligent

than

> > you

> > > > do.

> > > >>

> > > >> The theory of a flat world was well accepted for many

hundreds

> > of

> > > >> years, scholars wrote books about the subject, it was taught

in

> > > > schools,

> > > >> everyone knew of the sea creatures that would devour the

> > unexpecting

> > > >> traveler that would fall off of the earth. I am sure that

during

> > > > this

> > > >> time had someone mentioned that the world was round and that

> > there

> > > > were

> > > >> no sea creatures they would have been laughed out of the

schools

> > and

> > > >> called many names that you are probably calling me as you

read

> > this.

> > > >> There is no nice way to change a paradigm, but here we go. I

> > look

> > > >> forward to your comments, I understand if you need some time

to

> > > > digest

> > > >> this information. I have much, much (assessment, treatment,

> > etc.)

> > > > more,

> > > >> welcome to correct theory and a round world.

> > > >>

> > > >> Brad Welker, D.C., Shad McLagan, D.C., Baker, D.C.

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > OregonDCs rules:

> > > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the

listserve

> > is to

> > > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> > listserve

> > > > members will be tolerated.

> > > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> > > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up

> > anywhere.

> > > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print,

> > forward,

> > > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member

> > without

> > > > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

> > removed.

> > > >