Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Dr. Joe; You’ll never get a satisfying response from this guy. He is willing to believe the most egregiously misleading analysis of an article about one of chiropractic’s real innovators and educators, Ted Carrick – and by someone with no known expertise in the area. The idea that he accepts without any hint of doubt, without taking the time to critically read Hall’s article and realize that Hall either doesn’t understand or is committed to misrepresenting what Dr. Carrick is saying is revolting, and yet he continues to lay this kind of junk out before us. Be skeptical of all chiropractors but accept with prejudice any negative diatribe from anyone who represents themselves as an expert in regard to the dangers of chiropractic – with not a hint of doubt. That seems to be Dr. Phil’s philosophy. It’s getting stale. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of deadmed Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:15 AM ; Snell Subject: Harriet Hall RE PHIL Then you won't mind if the majority of chiros are skeptical of an MD's intentions while trying to educate the public on their profession. Certainly we can clean our own house, and if chiros making extraordinary claims is a view point you share, then you not her should be doing the educating. How to choose a chiro thats evidence based?? Please tell me how to do that as well. Is it stay away from the guy that claims he can cure cancer with an upper cervical adjustment? I mean, this evidence based thing is misleading. I'd say that the majority of chiros maybe 90% would be fine. The public's chances are pretty good without Harriets freaking help. Is a chiro that believes in the principles of chiropractic and subluxation complex not evidence based? Dr. ph Medlin D.C. Spine Tree Chiropractic 1627 NE Alberta St. #6 Portland, OR 97211 Ph: 503-788-6800 c: 503-889-6204 Re: Harriet Hall >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:33:27 EDT >> >>I didn't look at the articles, but the " quackbusters " affiliation is a >>major >>hint as to what she'll be saying. >> >>Good job on posting this. This is a perfect example of the power of this >>list. Now that the word is out to the list, how about a bunch of docs >>showing up >>and countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic? >> >>When and where is the Eugene lecture? >> >>Alan >>Creswell Chiropractic >> >> >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >>seanrobins@... writes: >>I googled her name and found some articles by her. >>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22. >>Seems she also either writes for or works with Barrett's quackbusters. > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 That stale smell you've got there is the mold on your keyboard. My posts are hardly a reflection of my acceptance of what Dr. Hall has to say on these matters. They are instead a comment on the victim's complex that is rampant in so many DCs. I would love to see us move beyond that phase, to accept criticism thoughtfully and respond professionally. Your tactics, as are apparent here, are to berate, and belittle when your beliefs are challenged. In the past Les you have touted how MDs are showing up for your seminars. How would they appreciate your broad brushing of their profession? As far as Carrick's work, I don't know enough about it to comment. When I read Hall's opinion, she was responding to an ad that said something to the effect of " Is Your Brain a Bad Brain " or something. I do think, and the public apprently does as well from the polls I referenced, that the all too common sensationalist advertising approach of chiros. Why does that matter? I'll let you check out the attached article by one of your favorite folks, Perle, to see an analogy for how that affects all DCs. What I sense is you're having a bit of sport here. You're attempting to rally your little gang to the flag you set up at our last encounter. I have a very different notion of what this profession needs than you or your FEW, yet very vocal group, has. Despite that difference, we can still manage to behave a bit more in the spirit of that first listserve rule again. 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > members will be tolerated. As I see it, the moderator is lunching, or is he rushing once again to that flag you seem to be waving. Knock yourself out mate, show us your colors. W. Snell, D.C. Hawthorne Wellness Center 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956 drpsnell.chiroweb.com >From: " S. Feinberg, D.C. " <feinberg@...> > " 'deadmed' " <deadmed@...>, < >, > " ' Snell' " <drpsnell@...> >Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:38:33 -0700 > >Dr. Joe; > > > >You'll never get a satisfying response from this guy. He is willing to >believe the most egregiously misleading analysis of an article about one of >chiropractic's real innovators and educators, Ted Carrick - and by someone >with no known expertise in the area. The idea that he accepts without any >hint of doubt, without taking the time to critically read Hall's article >and >realize that Hall either doesn't understand or is committed to >misrepresenting what Dr. Carrick is saying is revolting, and yet he >continues to lay this kind of junk out before us. Be skeptical of all >chiropractors but accept with prejudice any negative diatribe from anyone >who represents themselves as an expert in regard to the dangers of >chiropractic - with not a hint of doubt. That seems to be Dr. Phil's >philosophy. It's getting stale. > > > > S. Feinberg, D.C. > > > > _____ > >From: [mailto: ] On >Behalf >Of deadmed >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:15 AM > ; Snell >Subject: Harriet Hall RE PHIL > > > >Then you won't mind if the majority of chiros are skeptical of an MD's >intentions while trying to educate the public on their profession. >Certainly > >we can clean our own house, and if chiros making extraordinary claims is a >view point you share, then you not her should be doing the educating. > >How to choose a chiro thats evidence based?? Please tell me how to do that >as well. Is it stay away from the guy that claims he can cure cancer with >an upper cervical adjustment? I mean, this evidence based thing is >misleading. I'd say that the majority of chiros maybe 90% would be fine. >The > >public's chances are pretty good without Harriets freaking help. Is a chiro >that believes in the principles of chiropractic and subluxation complex not >evidence based? > > >Dr. ph Medlin D.C. >Spine Tree Chiropractic >1627 NE Alberta St. #6 >Portland, OR 97211 >Ph: 503-788-6800 >c: 503-889-6204 > Re: Harriet Hall > >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:33:27 EDT > >> > >>I didn't look at the articles, but the " quackbusters " affiliation is a > >>major > >>hint as to what she'll be saying. > >> > >>Good job on posting this. This is a perfect example of the power of this > >>list. Now that the word is out to the list, how about a bunch of docs > >>showing up > >>and countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic? > >> > >>When and where is the Eugene lecture? > >> > >>Alan > >>Creswell Chiropractic > >> > >> > >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > >>seanrobins@... writes: > >>I googled her name and found some articles by her. > >>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art ><http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.> > & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22. > >>Seems she also either writes for or works with Barrett's quackbusters. > > > > > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > members will be tolerated. > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, >forward, > > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Dear Colleagues, I have been watching on the sidelines the past few days all of this dialog and am very intrigued. I believe that the "FEW" that Dr. Snell is referring to might in fact be around 50% of the licensed doctors in the State of Oregon, not quite the definition of "few". I do think that colleagial discourse will always win out in the end. I do have to count myself on the wellness paradigm side of Chiropractic as that was D.D. Palmer's original observation of health ( I believe on Les' side ) Namaste, Knecht DC Namaste Chiropractic 1809 NW Portland, OR 97209 503-226-8010 From: " Snell" <drpsnell@...> Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHILDate: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:19:21 -0700That stale smell you've got there is the mold on your keyboard. My posts are hardly a reflection of my acceptance of what Dr. Hall has to say on these matters. They are instead a comment on the victim's complex that is rampant in so many DCs. I would love to see us move beyond that phase, to accept criticism thoughtfully and respond professionally. Your tactics, as are apparent here, are to berate, and belittle when your beliefs are challenged. In the past Les you have touted how MDs are showing up for your seminars. How would they appreciate your broad brushing of their profession?As far as Carrick's work, I don't know enough about it to comment. When I read Hall's opinion, she was responding to an ad that said something to the effect of "Is Your Brain a Bad Brain" or something. I do think, and the public apprently does as well from the polls I referenced, that the all too common sensationalist advertising approach of chiros. Why does that matter? I'll let you check out the attached article by one of your favorite folks, Perle, to see an analogy for how that affects all DCs.What I sense is you're having a bit of sport here. You're attempting to rally your little gang to the flag you set up at our last encounter. I have a very different notion of what this profession needs than you or your FEW, yet very vocal group, has. Despite that difference, we can still manage to behave a bit more in the spirit of that first listserve rule again. 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to> > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve> > members will be tolerated.As I see it, the moderator is lunching, or is he rushing once again to that flag you seem to be waving.Knock yourself out mate, show us your colors. W. Snell, D.C.Hawthorne Wellness Center3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd.Portland, OR 97214Ph. 503-235-5484Fax 503-235-3956drpsnell.chiroweb.com>From: " S. Feinberg, D.C." <feinberg@...>>"'deadmed'" <deadmed@...>, < >, >"' Snell'" <drpsnell@...>>Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:38:33 -0700>>Dr. Joe;>>>>You'll never get a satisfying response from this guy. He is willing to>believe the most egregiously misleading analysis of an article about one of>chiropractic's real innovators and educators, Ted Carrick - and by someone>with no known expertise in the area. The idea that he accepts without any>hint of doubt, without taking the time to critically read Hall's article >and>realize that Hall either doesn't understand or is committed to>misrepresenting what Dr. Carrick is saying is revolting, and yet he>continues to lay this kind of junk out before us. Be skeptical of all>chiropractors but accept with prejudice any negative diatribe from anyone>who represents themselves as an expert in regard to the dangers of>chiropractic - with not a hint of doubt. That seems to be Dr. Phil's>philosophy. It's getting stale.>>>> S. Feinberg, D.C.>>>> _____>>From: [mailto: ] On >Behalf>Of deadmed>Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:15 AM> ; Snell>Subject: Harriet Hall RE PHIL>>>>Then you won't mind if the majority of chiros are skeptical of an MD's>intentions while trying to educate the public on their profession. >Certainly>>we can clean our own house, and if chiros making extraordinary claims is a>view point you share, then you not her should be doing the educating.>>How to choose a chiro thats evidence based?? Please tell me how to do that>as well. Is it stay away from the guy that claims he can cure cancer with>an upper cervical adjustment? I mean, this evidence based thing is>misleading. I'd say that the majority of chiros maybe 90% would be fine. >The>>public's chances are pretty good without Harriets freaking help. Is a chiro>that believes in the principles of chiropractic and subluxation complex not>evidence based?>>>Dr. ph Medlin D.C.>Spine Tree Chiropractic>1627 NE Alberta St. #6>Portland, OR 97211>Ph: 503-788-6800>c: 503-889-6204> Re: Harriet Hall> >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:33:27 EDT> >>> >>I didn't look at the articles, but the "quackbusters" affiliation is a> >>major> >>hint as to what she'll be saying.> >>> >>Good job on posting this. This is a perfect example of the power of this> >>list. Now that the word is out to the list, how about a bunch of docs> >>showing up> >>and countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic?> >>> >>When and where is the Eugene lecture?> >>> >>Alan > >>Creswell Chiropractic> >>> >>> >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,> >>seanrobins@... writes:> >>I googled her name and found some articles by her.> >>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art><http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.>> & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.> >>Seems she also either writes for or works with Barrett's quackbusters.> >> >> >> > OregonDCs rules:> > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to> > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve> > members will be tolerated.> > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.> > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.> > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, >forward,>> > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without> > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 ,Les,Phil.... Count me as one of the 'few' who believe folks like Les and Dan are right on the mark. I do not think the discourse are risen to the level of violating the listserves rules. Passions are running high becouse Phil has touched on a raw nerve here-the definition of what true chiropractic is about. Let the best man win and let the truth live on forever. Schneider PDX ---- Re: Harriet Hall<BR>> >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:33:27 EDT<BR>> >><BR>> >>I didn't look at the articles, but the " quackbusters " affiliation is a<BR>> >>major<BR>> >>hint as to what she'll be saying.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Good job on posting this. This is a perfect example of the power of this<BR>> >>list. Now that the word is out to the list, how about a bunch of docs<BR>> >>showing up<BR>> >>and countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic?<BR>> >><BR>> >>When and where is the Eugene lecture?<BR>> >><BR>> >>Alan <BR>> >>Creswell >Chiropractic<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>> >>seanrobins@... writes:<BR>> >>I googled her name and found some articles by her.<BR>> >><A href= " http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art " >http://www.findarticles.com/p\ /search?tb=art</A><BR>><<A href='http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt= " Harriet+A.+Hall " .'>http://\ www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.</A>><BR>> & qt=%22H\ arriet+A.+Hall%22.<BR>> >>Seems she also either writes for or works with Barrett's quackbusters.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > OregonDCs rules:<BR>> > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to<BR>> > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on >listserve<BR>> > members will be tolerated.<BR>> > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.<BR>> > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.<BR>> > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, <BR>>forward,<BR>><BR>> > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without<BR>> > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.<BR>> > Links<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>OregonDCs rules:<BR>>1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to<BR>>foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve<BR>>members will be tolerated.<BR>>2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.<BR>>3. The >listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,<BR>>it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or<BR>>otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his <BR>>or<BR>>her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _____<BR>><BR>>! GROUPS LINKS<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>* Visit your group " <BR>><<A href= " " >ore\ gondcs</A>> " on the web.<BR>><BR>>* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Colleagues: Any critique Dr. Hall may proffer concerning scientific validity should be considered purely academic, unless she can provide scientific proof to support her contentions. It appears the medic’s “placebo effect” explanation for the therapeutic effect of chiropractic adjustments just didn’t take, so now they are trying a different tack: working the “argument from ignorance,” that a premise is false only because it has not been proven to be true. Dr. Hall suggests that blood letting remained a standard practice in medical care for hundreds of years, because practitioners believed (like chiropractors do about adjusting – her inference) that it provided a beneficial result, without knowing why, and called it a problem with “internal validity.” She then suggests blood letting was abandoned because science (external validity) proved that practice to be erroneous. I do not believe that is the way it went down. And, it appears she is not aware of its resurgence in the treatment of hemochromatosis and polycythemia. So, on balance, it appears that science and external validity did not find blood letting is erroneous for all conditions. Also, she attributes scientific “external validity” for changing the practice of treating stomach ulcers with antacids. Tell that to the MD who provided the thesis on helicobacter pylori. They (the medical community) all but laughed him out of existence, and ignored solid scientific evidence contrary to that practice for years! No, it was the profit motive of the pharmaceutical industry that drove the change in that protocol, not external validity. Can you say Nexium, Zantac, Gaviscon, Pepcid, Tagamet, Losec, Protium, Zanprol, Zoton, Pariet, Zaedoc, Ranzac, Rantec, Ranitil, Ranitic, Raciran, Pylorid, Histac, Dyspamet, Axid, Peptac, Pyrogastrone, and more antibiotics! Medics continue to lose credibility, as there is no scientific support for the efficacy of the majority of their prescriptions. Also, as has been pointed out, the greatest killer of Americans today is medical care. Patients are becoming more aware that drugs don’t hold the cure. But, at the same time, they just don’t seem to give a damn and continue to see the medics in droves. So, any way you look at it, the current exchange between Dr. Snell and Dr. Beebe and others, who are taking sides with “the rest of the 50%” is completely unproductive. Every chiropractic physician among us possesses, at the very least, the knowledge and skill to provide effective treatment for NMS conditions, where allopaths do not possess such skill. That is the cornerstone of our existence. We owe it to our patients to hold that line in UNISON. We all provide treatments that may beneficially affect fertility issues, gastro-intestinal dysfunction, visual disturbances, respiratory dysfunction, cardiac dysfunction, infantile colic, and even cancer, but we do not yet possess the scientific validation necessary to publicly claim efficacy treating such organic dysfunction. So, we must stop this nonsense of taking sides. The only side we are obliged to concern ourselves with is the side our patients permit us to take… theirs. Cordially, Glenn Glenn F. Gumaer, B.S., D.C. Chiropractic Physician Northside Chiropractic Clinic 1240 N. Riverside Avenue Medford, OR 97501-4619 541-770-1330 ofc 541-770-7090 fax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 On Apr 28, 2006, at 4:00 AM, Glenn F. Gumaer, D.C. wrote: > Every chiropractic physician among us possesses, at the very least, > the knowledge and skill to provide effective treatment for NMS > conditions, where allopaths do not possess such skill. That is the > cornerstone of our existence. We owe it to our patients to hold that > line in UNISON. We all provide treatments that may beneficially affect > fertility issues, gastro-intestinal dysfunction, visual disturbances, > respiratory dysfunction, cardiac dysfunction, infantile colic, and > even cancer, but we do not yet possess the scientific validation > necessary to publicly claim efficacy treating such organic > dysfunction. So, we must stop this nonsense of taking sides. The only > side we are obliged to concern ourselves with is the side our patients > permit us to take… theirs. Words to live by! Sears PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 It took me a while to read this thread, didn't know who the heck Harriet Hall was. I don't appreciate the tone when we start to attack each other. Les, Dan, Phil, I know all of you, at least a bit, and you are all great people and great doctors. There is room in our tent for various views of our scope and our purpose. Let's not attack each other. PS- I have taken a few of the Carrick Institute diplomate Neurology seminars. Its fascinating stuff, looking at the nervous system in relation to inhibition and facilitation. The top diplomates don't use paper to chart the changes in the visual field anymore. Someone came up with a nifty computerized way to do this, more reproducible. Carrick neurology is rational, and the docs studying it get deep into anatomy and function of the brain and nervous system. Like many leading edge chiropractic systems, the peer reviewed quality papers are lacking, although this group acknowledges this, and is working to change this. Carrick, whom I have not met, from my limited experience via videos, etc.-here is my view of him- He is a classic chiropractic eccentric genius, and a brilliant clinician, brilliant thinker, but will probably not be the lead author on scientific papers on his work. Marc Heller, DC mheller@... www.MarcHellerDC.com Glenn F. Gumaer, D.C. wrote: > > Colleagues: > > Any critique Dr. Hall may proffer concerning scientific validity > should be considered purely academic, unless she can provide > scientific proof to support her contentions. It appears the medic’s > “placebo effect” explanation for the therapeutic effect of > chiropractic adjustments just didn’t take, so now they are trying a > different tack: working the “argument from ignorance,” that a premise > is false only because it has not been proven to be true. Dr. Hall > suggests that blood letting remained a standard practice in medical > care for hundreds of years, because practitioners believed (like > chiropractors do about adjusting – her inference) that it provided a > beneficial result, without knowing why, and called it a problem with > “internal validity.” She then suggests blood letting was abandoned > because science (external validity) proved that practice to be > erroneous. I do not believe that is the way it went down. And, it > appears she is not aware of its resurgence in the treatment of > hemochromatosis and polycythemia. So, on balance, it appears that > science and external validity did not find blood letting is erroneous > for all conditions. Also, she attributes scientific “external > validity” for changing the practice of treating stomach ulcers with > antacids. Tell that to the MD who provided the thesis on helicobacter > pylori. They (the medical community) all but laughed him out of > existence, and ignored solid scientific evidence contrary to that > practice for years! No, it was the profit motive of the pharmaceutical > industry that drove the change in that protocol, not external > validity. Can you say Nexium, Zantac, Gaviscon, Pepcid, Tagamet, > Losec, Protium, Zanprol, Zoton, Pariet, Zaedoc, Ranzac, Rantec, > Ranitil, Ranitic, Raciran, Pylorid, Histac, Dyspamet, Axid, Peptac, > Pyrogastrone, and more antibiotics! > > Medics continue to lose credibility, as there is no scientific support > for the efficacy of the majority of their prescriptions. Also, as has > been pointed out, the greatest killer of Americans today is medical > care. Patients are becoming more aware that drugs don’t hold the cure. > But, at the same time, they just don’t seem to give a damn and > continue to see the medics in droves. So, any way you look at it, the > current exchange between Dr. Snell and Dr. Beebe and others, who are > taking sides with “the rest of the 50%” is completely unproductive. > > Every chiropractic physician among us possesses, at the very least, > the knowledge and skill to provide effective treatment for NMS > conditions, where allopaths do not possess such skill. That is the > cornerstone of our existence. We owe it to our patients to hold that > line in UNISON. We all provide treatments that may beneficially affect > fertility issues, gastro-intestinal dysfunction, visual disturbances, > respiratory dysfunction, cardiac dysfunction, infantile colic, and > even cancer, but we do not yet possess the scientific validation > necessary to publicly claim efficacy treating such organic > dysfunction. So, we must stop this nonsense of taking sides. The only > side we are obliged to concern ourselves with is the side our patients > permit us to take… theirs. > > Cordially, > > Glenn > > Glenn F. Gumaer, B.S., D.C. > > Chiropractic Physician > > Northside Chiropractic Clinic > > 1240 N. Riverside Avenue > > Medford, OR 97501-4619 > > 541-770-1330 ofc > > 541-770-7090 fax > > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is > to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on > listserve members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, > forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another > member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers > have been removed. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Dr. Phil; Did I malign the medical profession? Hardly! I maligned you for being such a sucker for this anti-chiropractic shill, and anyone else who wants to denigrate chiropractic, and so arrogant and intellectually careless in embracing and vocally supporting this tripe from Harriet Hall. I maligned Hall for a dishonest article designed to obfuscate, not to illuminate. Get this straight, bud, it was not a “skeptical” article. It was an article intentionally designed to mislead, just as her presentation is no doubt written with a poison pen. Cynical is different than skeptical. Look it up. Are you completely incapable of intellectual honesty? Do you understand the difference between Hall’s assertion that Dr. Carrick is saying he can make instantaneous changes in the size of the optic disk and Dr. Carrick’s assertion that he is making changes in visual perception at a cortical level? She doesn’t even address the point of Carrick’s paper. At long last, Dr. Snell, have you no sense of decency? Do you have no sense of embarrassment on this? I don’t say this as a personal attack on you and I might add that I have no personal animosity for you. I don’t recall that I’ve met you. Hey, I wouldn’t know you if I stumbled over you licking clean the boots of Barrett. Shoot, I don’t know either one of you, so I couldn’t tell the licker from the lickee. You accuse me of berating and belittling you but my remarks, except for a little sarcasm that I just can’t resist, were a criticism of your ideas. I find your ideas to be naïve, ignorant, and arrogant in the extreme. I hope they wither and never take root in the minds of other young chiropractors. You on the other hand, I wish to see some ray of light at some point in your career. Maybe it will be eight or ten years from now when you get it and slap your forehead in Simpsonian astonishment – “Doh!!!” May your mind some day be illuminated. I really do wish that for you. In the mean time, you can brag about your youth and ignorance as if they were badges of honor that you somehow take credit for. Don’t worry, neither your youth nor your ignorance will last forever. Please don’t think you can make any ridiculous statements about this profession and not be challenged. I made a very specific critique of your eager reiteration of this dishonest, malicious, and inaccurate trashing of a great chiropractic educator and you haven’t even the dignity to say that you made a mistake and maybe you shouldn’t have been so enthusiastic in supporting Hall’s absurd attack. You admit you don’t know anything about Dr. Carrick. What, you think they taught you everything you need to know in chiropractic college? You seem to have no respect for those in chiropractic who have considerably more experience in this profession than you have. Did Raphael think Da Vinci was a some old punk with tempra under his nails or did he revere the masters who went before him and seek to understand, learn, and build on the foundation they had left him? So far, I haven’t noticed too many responses supporting your position here. Perhaps your silent majority is silent for a reason. And yes, I do admit that I can’t resist having a bit of sport with you. Perhaps I haven’t matured much from the sophomoric high school kid who put a “kick me” note on the back of the class dope. At my age, it may be some sort of second childhood. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Snell Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:19 PM Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL That stale smell you've got there is the mold on your keyboard. My posts are hardly a reflection of my acceptance of what Dr. Hall has to say on these matters. They are instead a comment on the victim's complex that is rampant in so many DCs. I would love to see us move beyond that phase, to accept criticism thoughtfully and respond professionally. Your tactics, as are apparent here, are to berate, and belittle when your beliefs are challenged. In the past Les you have touted how MDs are showing up for your seminars. How would they appreciate your broad brushing of their profession? As far as Carrick's work, I don't know enough about it to comment. When I read Hall's opinion, she was responding to an ad that said something to the effect of " Is Your Brain a Bad Brain " or something. I do think, and the public apprently does as well from the polls I referenced, that the all too common sensationalist advertising approach of chiros. Why does that matter? I'll let you check out the attached article by one of your favorite folks, Perle, to see an analogy for how that affects all DCs. What I sense is you're having a bit of sport here. You're attempting to rally your little gang to the flag you set up at our last encounter. I have a very different notion of what this profession needs than you or your FEW, yet very vocal group, has. Despite that difference, we can still manage to behave a bit more in the spirit of that first listserve rule again. 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > members will be tolerated. As I see it, the moderator is lunching, or is he rushing once again to that flag you seem to be waving. Knock yourself out mate, show us your colors. W. Snell, D.C. Hawthorne Wellness Center 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956 drpsnell.chiroweb.com >From: " S. Feinberg, D.C. " <feinberg@...> > " 'deadmed' " <deadmed@...>, < >, > " ' Snell' " <drpsnell@...> >Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:38:33 -0700 > >Dr. Joe; > > > >You'll never get a satisfying response from this guy. He is willing to >believe the most egregiously misleading analysis of an article about one of >chiropractic's real innovators and educators, Ted Carrick - and by someone >with no known expertise in the area. The idea that he accepts without any >hint of doubt, without taking the time to critically read Hall's article >and >realize that Hall either doesn't understand or is committed to >misrepresenting what Dr. Carrick is saying is revolting, and yet he >continues to lay this kind of junk out before us. Be skeptical of all >chiropractors but accept with prejudice any negative diatribe from anyone >who represents themselves as an expert in regard to the dangers of >chiropractic - with not a hint of doubt. That seems to be Dr. Phil's >philosophy. It's getting stale. > > > > S. Feinberg, D.C. > > > > _____ > >From: [mailto: ] On >Behalf >Of deadmed >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:15 AM > ; Snell >Subject: Harriet Hall RE PHIL > > > >Then you won't mind if the majority of chiros are skeptical of an MD's >intentions while trying to educate the public on their profession. >Certainly > >we can clean our own house, and if chiros making extraordinary claims is a >view point you share, then you not her should be doing the educating. > >How to choose a chiro thats evidence based?? Please tell me how to do that >as well. Is it stay away from the guy that claims he can cure cancer with >an upper cervical adjustment? I mean, this evidence based thing is >misleading. I'd say that the majority of chiros maybe 90% would be fine. >The > >public's chances are pretty good without Harriets freaking help. Is a chiro >that believes in the principles of chiropractic and subluxation complex not >evidence based? > > >Dr. ph Medlin D.C. >Spine Tree Chiropractic >1627 NE Alberta St. #6 >Portland, OR 97211 >Ph: 503-788-6800 >c: 503-889-6204 > Re: Harriet Hall > >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:33:27 EDT > >> > >>I didn't look at the articles, but the " quackbusters " affiliation is a > >>major > >>hint as to what she'll be saying. > >> > >>Good job on posting this. This is a perfect example of the power of this > >>list. Now that the word is out to the list, how about a bunch of docs > >>showing up > >>and countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic? > >> > >>When and where is the Eugene lecture? > >> > >>Alan > >>Creswell Chiropractic > >> > >> > >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > >>seanrobins@... writes: > >>I googled her name and found some articles by her. > >>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art ><http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.> > & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22. > >>Seems she also either writes for or works with Barrett's quackbusters. > > > > > > > > OregonDCs rules: > > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > > members will be tolerated. > > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, >forward, > > > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Glenn, , et al. For the sake of civility, and with your well written words, Glenn, refocusing us to the task at hand, I will kindly take this " dialogue " with Less off of the list. What began as an effort to point out a seemingly common professional trait of victimization and pre-judgement of those who critique us, has clearly taken an unproductive course. It's hard for all of us to get in bed together when Les and I keep pissing in it. Perhaps Les and I need a nice long hike somewhere in the woods, like our legislators did last year, to try to settle our differences. Then I can slip his hand in a bowl of water while he sleeps! Neener-neener. W. Snell, D.C. Hawthorne Wellness Center 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956 drpsnell.chiroweb.com >From: " Glenn F. Gumaer, D.C. " <gfgdc@...> >Reply-<gfgdc@...> ><Oregondcs > >Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 04:00:23 -0700 > >Colleagues: > > > >Any critique Dr. Hall may proffer concerning scientific validity should be >considered purely academic, unless she can provide scientific proof to >support her contentions. It appears the medic's " placebo effect " >explanation >for the therapeutic effect of chiropractic adjustments just didn't take, so >now they are trying a different tack: working the " argument from >ignorance, " >that a premise is false only because it has not been proven to be true. Dr. >Hall suggests that blood letting remained a standard practice in medical >care for hundreds of years, because practitioners believed (like >chiropractors do about adjusting - her inference) that it provided a >beneficial result, without knowing why, and called it a problem with > " internal validity. " She then suggests blood letting was abandoned because >science (external validity) proved that practice to be erroneous. I do not >believe that is the way it went down. And, it appears she is not aware of >its resurgence in the treatment of hemochromatosis and polycythemia. So, on >balance, it appears that science and external validity did not find blood >letting is erroneous for all conditions. Also, she attributes scientific > " external validity " for changing the practice of treating stomach ulcers >with antacids. Tell that to the MD who provided the thesis on helicobacter >pylori. They (the medical community) all but laughed him out of existence, >and ignored solid scientific evidence contrary to that practice for years! >No, it was the profit motive of the pharmaceutical industry that drove the >change in that protocol, not external validity. Can you say Nexium, Zantac, >Gaviscon, Pepcid, Tagamet, Losec, Protium, Zanprol, Zoton, Pariet, Zaedoc, >Ranzac, Rantec, Ranitil, Ranitic, Raciran, Pylorid, Histac, Dyspamet, Axid, >Peptac, Pyrogastrone, and more antibiotics! > > > >Medics continue to lose credibility, as there is no scientific support for >the efficacy of the majority of their prescriptions. Also, as has been >pointed out, the greatest killer of Americans today is medical care. >Patients are becoming more aware that drugs don't hold the cure. But, at >the >same time, they just don't seem to give a damn and continue to see the >medics in droves. So, any way you look at it, the current exchange between >Dr. Snell and Dr. Beebe and others, who are taking sides with " the rest of >the 50% " is completely unproductive. > > > >Every chiropractic physician among us possesses, at the very least, the >knowledge and skill to provide effective treatment for NMS conditions, >where >allopaths do not possess such skill. That is the cornerstone of our >existence. We owe it to our patients to hold that line in UNISON. We all >provide treatments that may beneficially affect fertility issues, >gastro-intestinal dysfunction, visual disturbances, respiratory >dysfunction, >cardiac dysfunction, infantile colic, and even cancer, but we do not yet >possess the scientific validation necessary to publicly claim efficacy >treating such organic dysfunction. So, we must stop this nonsense of taking >sides. The only side we are obliged to concern ourselves with is the side >our patients permit us to take. theirs. > > > >Cordially, > > > >Glenn > > > >Glenn F. Gumaer, B.S., D.C. > >Chiropractic Physician > >Northside Chiropractic Clinic > >1240 N. Riverside Avenue > >Medford, OR 97501-4619 > >541-770-1330 ofc > >541-770-7090 fax > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Dr. Phil; “What began as an effort to point out a seemingly common professional trait of victimization and pre-judgement of those who critique us, has clearly taken an unproductive course.” No, Dr. Phil, it is a very productive course that has been taken here because the article you promoted demonstrated precisely the opposite of what you think it demonstrated. The article was very clearly an effort to victimize our profession by unfairly criticizing one of our great innovators and thinkers. There was no “pre-judgment” of those who criticize us. There was simply a judgment of the content and structure of a poorly written and poorly argued position by Harriet Hall. You and I have no “differences” that need to be ironed out. Its about ideas and not personalities or egos, and frankly I’m a little uncomfortable with the perhaps unintentional subtext of your email. I mean I enjoyed Brokeback Mountain as much as the next straight guy, but your fantasizing about sleeping in the woods with me is something you may want to keep to your self. Not that there is anything wrong with that, and at my age I have to admit to being somewhat flattered! The whole water sports thing, though, was just way over the top for my tastes, but you already know how old fashioned and out of date I am. Dream on, mon ami. S. Feinberg, D.C. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Snell Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 6:56 AM Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL Glenn, , et al. For the sake of civility, and with your well written words, Glenn, refocusing us to the task at hand, I will kindly take this " dialogue " with Less off of the list. What began as an effort to point out a seemingly common professional trait of victimization and pre-judgement of those who critique us, has clearly taken an unproductive course. It's hard for all of us to get in bed together when Les and I keep pissing in it. Perhaps Les and I need a nice long hike somewhere in the woods, like our legislators did last year, to try to settle our differences. Then I can slip his hand in a bowl of water while he sleeps! Neener-neener. W. Snell, D.C. Hawthorne Wellness Center 3942 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956 drpsnell.chiroweb.com >From: " Glenn F. Gumaer, D.C. " <gfgdc@...> >Reply-<gfgdc@...> ><Oregondcs > >Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 04:00:23 -0700 > >Colleagues: > > > >Any critique Dr. Hall may proffer concerning scientific validity should be >considered purely academic, unless she can provide scientific proof to >support her contentions. It appears the medic's " placebo effect " >explanation >for the therapeutic effect of chiropractic adjustments just didn't take, so >now they are trying a different tack: working the " argument from >ignorance, " >that a premise is false only because it has not been proven to be true. Dr. >Hall suggests that blood letting remained a standard practice in medical >care for hundreds of years, because practitioners believed (like >chiropractors do about adjusting - her inference) that it provided a >beneficial result, without knowing why, and called it a problem with > " internal validity. " She then suggests blood letting was abandoned because >science (external validity) proved that practice to be erroneous. I do not >believe that is the way it went down. And, it appears she is not aware of >its resurgence in the treatment of hemochromatosis and polycythemia. So, on >balance, it appears that science and external validity did not find blood >letting is erroneous for all conditions. Also, she attributes scientific > " external validity " for changing the practice of treating stomach ulcers >with antacids. Tell that to the MD who provided the thesis on helicobacter >pylori. They (the medical community) all but laughed him out of existence, >and ignored solid scientific evidence contrary to that practice for years! >No, it was the profit motive of the pharmaceutical industry that drove the >change in that protocol, not external validity. Can you say Nexium, Zantac, >Gaviscon, Pepcid, Tagamet, Losec, Protium, Zanprol, Zoton, Pariet, Zaedoc, >Ranzac, Rantec, Ranitil, Ranitic, Raciran, Pylorid, Histac, Dyspamet, Axid, >Peptac, Pyrogastrone, and more antibiotics! > > > >Medics continue to lose credibility, as there is no scientific support for >the efficacy of the majority of their prescriptions. Also, as has been >pointed out, the greatest killer of Americans today is medical care. >Patients are becoming more aware that drugs don't hold the cure. But, at >the >same time, they just don't seem to give a damn and continue to see the >medics in droves. So, any way you look at it, the current exchange between >Dr. Snell and Dr. Beebe and others, who are taking sides with " the rest of >the 50% " is completely unproductive. > > > >Every chiropractic physician among us possesses, at the very least, the >knowledge and skill to provide effective treatment for NMS conditions, >where >allopaths do not possess such skill. That is the cornerstone of our >existence. We owe it to our patients to hold that line in UNISON. We all >provide treatments that may beneficially affect fertility issues, >gastro-intestinal dysfunction, visual disturbances, respiratory >dysfunction, >cardiac dysfunction, infantile colic, and even cancer, but we do not yet >possess the scientific validation necessary to publicly claim efficacy >treating such organic dysfunction. So, we must stop this nonsense of taking >sides. The only side we are obliged to concern ourselves with is the side >our patients permit us to take. theirs. > > > >Cordially, > > > >Glenn > > > >Glenn F. Gumaer, B.S., D.C. > >Chiropractic Physician > >Northside Chiropractic Clinic > >1240 N. Riverside Avenue > >Medford, OR 97501-4619 > >541-770-1330 ofc > >541-770-7090 fax > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Ha! Comon, you guys can't take this behind closed doors. It's tooooo good! Dr. ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St. #6Portland, OR 97211Ph: 503-788-6800c: 503-889-6204 RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL>Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 04:00:23 -0700>>Colleagues:>>>>Any critique Dr. Hall may proffer concerning scientific validity should be>considered purely academic, unless she can provide scientific proof to>support her contentions. It appears the medic's "placebo effect" >explanation>for the therapeutic effect of chiropractic adjustments just didn't take, so>now they are trying a different tack: working the "argument from >ignorance,">that a premise is false only because it has not been proven to be true. Dr.>Hall suggests that blood letting remained a standard practice in medical>care for hundreds of years, because practitioners believed (like>chiropractors do about adjusting - her inference) that it provided a>beneficial result, without knowing why, and called it a problem with>"internal validity." She then suggests blood letting was abandoned because>science (external validity) proved that practice to be erroneous. I do not>believe that is the way it went down. And, it appears she is not aware of>its resurgence in the treatment of hemochromatosis and polycythemia. So, on>balance, it appears that science and external validity did not find blood>letting is erroneous for all conditions. Also, she attributes scientific>"external validity" for changing the practice of treating stomach ulcers>with antacids. Tell that to the MD who provided the thesis on helicobacter>pylori. They (the medical community) all but laughed him out of existence,>and ignored solid scientific evidence contrary to that practice for years!>No, it was the profit motive of the pharmaceutical industry that drove the>change in that protocol, not external validity. Can you say Nexium, Zantac,>Gaviscon, Pepcid, Tagamet, Losec, Protium, Zanprol, Zoton, Pariet, Zaedoc,>Ranzac, Rantec, Ranitil, Ranitic, Raciran, Pylorid, Histac, Dyspamet, Axid,>Peptac, Pyrogastrone, and more antibiotics!>>>>Medics continue to lose credibility, as there is no scientific support for>the efficacy of the majority of their prescriptions. Also, as has been>pointed out, the greatest killer of Americans today is medical care.>Patients are becoming more aware that drugs don't hold the cure. But, at >the>same time, they just don't seem to give a damn and continue to see the>medics in droves. So, any way you look at it, the current exchange between>Dr. Snell and Dr. Beebe and others, who are taking sides with "the rest of>the 50%" is completely unproductive.>>>>Every chiropractic physician among us possesses, at the very least, the>knowledge and skill to provide effective treatment for NMS conditions, >where>allopaths do not possess such skill. That is the cornerstone of our>existence. We owe it to our patients to hold that line in UNISON. We all>provide treatments that may beneficially affect fertility issues,>gastro-intestinal dysfunction, visual disturbances, respiratory >dysfunction,>cardiac dysfunction, infantile colic, and even cancer, but we do not yet>possess the scientific validation necessary to publicly claim efficacy>treating such organic dysfunction. So, we must stop this nonsense of taking>sides. The only side we are obliged to concern ourselves with is the side>our patients permit us to take. theirs.>>>>Cordially,>>>>Glenn>>>>Glenn F. Gumaer, B.S., D.C.>>Chiropractic Physician>>Northside Chiropractic Clinic>>1240 N. Riverside Avenue>>Medford, OR 97501-4619>>541-770-1330 ofc>>541-770-7090 fax>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Bunk with the 'best man' hoo ha. Talk and leave the punkish adjectives out. sharron fuchs dc From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of schneider@...Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:37 PMdrpsnell@...; ; allen@...Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL ,Les,Phil....Count me as one of the 'few' who believe folks like Les and Dan are right on the mark. I do not think the discourse are risen to the level of violating the listserves rules. Passions are running high becouse Phil has touched on a raw nerve here-the definition of what true chiropractic is about.Let the best man win and let the truth live on forever. SchneiderPDX---- Re: Harriet Hall<BR>> >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:33:27 EDT<BR>> >><BR>> >>I didn't look at the articles, but the "quackbusters" affiliation is a<BR>> >>major<BR>> >>hint as to what she'll be saying.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Good job on posting this. This is a perfect example of the power of this<BR>> >>list. Now that the word is out to the list, how about a bunch of docs<BR>> >>showing up<BR>> >>and countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic?<BR>> >><BR>> >>When and where is the Eugene lecture?<BR>> >><BR>> > >Alan <BR>> >>Creswell >Chiropractic<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>> >>seanrobins@... writes:<BR>> >>I googled her name and found some articles by her.<BR>> >><A href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art">http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art</A><BR>><<A href='http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt="Harriet+A.+Hall".'>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.</A>><BR>> & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.<BR>> >>Seems she also either writes for or works with Barrett's quackbusters.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > OregonDCs rules:<BR>> > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to<BR>> > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on >listserve<BR>> > members will be tolerated.<BR>> > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.<BR>> > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.<BR>> > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, <BR>>forward,<BR>><BR>> > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without<BR>> > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.<BR>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Sorry if you are offended by my " punkish adjetives " Sharron. I am a passionate old German and I happen to think a few interesting adjetives add relevant emphasis to my statememts. Just because we are docs does't mean we must sound boring as ditch water all the time. I welcome the colorful poetic license I often see on this list service. Will Schneider PDX ----- Re: Harriet Hall<BR>> >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 >13:33:27 EDT<BR>> >><BR>> >>I didn't look at the articles, but the > " quackbusters " affiliation is a<BR>> >>major<BR>> >>hint as to what >she'll be saying.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Good job on posting this. This is a >perfect example of the power of this<BR>> >>list. Now that the word is >out to the list, how about a bunch of docs<BR>> >>showing up<BR>> >>and >countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic?<BR>> >>><BR>> >>When and where is the Eugene lecture?<BR>> >><BR>> > >Alan ><BR>> >>Creswell >>Chiropractic<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 >10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>> >>seanrobins@... >writes:<BR>> >>I googled her name and found some articles by her.<BR>> >>><A >href= " http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art " >http://www.findarticl >es.com/p/search?tb=art</A><BR>><<A >href='http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt= " Harriet+A.+Hall " .' >>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.</ >A>><BR>> & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.<BR>> >>Seems she also either writes >for or works with Barrett's quackbusters.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > >OregonDCs rules:<BR>> > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose >of the listserve is to<BR>> > foster communication and collegiality. No >personal attacks on >>listserve<BR>> > members will be tolerated.<BR>> > 2. Always sign your >e-mails with your first and last name.<BR>> > 3. The listserve is not >secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.<BR>> > However, it is against >the rules of the listserve to copy, print, <BR>>forward,<BR>><BR>> > or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member >without<BR>> > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have >been removed.<BR>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 What do you know about being the best man? You’re a girl! HAHAHA! ( E. Abrahamson, D.C.) Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic 315 Second Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com From: Sharron Fuchs <sharronf@...> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:40:37 -0700 < > Conversation: Harriet Hall RE PHIL Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL Bunk with the 'best man' hoo ha. Talk and leave the punkish adjectives out. sharron fuchs dc From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of schneider@... Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:37 PM drpsnell@...; ; allen@... Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL ,Les,Phil.... Count me as one of the 'few' who believe folks like Les and Dan are right on the mark. I do not think the discourse are risen to the level of violating the listserves rules. Passions are running high becouse Phil has touched on a raw nerve here-the definition of what true chiropractic is about. Let the best man win and let the truth live on forever. Schneider PDX ---- Re: Harriet Hall<BR>> >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:33:27 EDT<BR>> >><BR>> >>I didn't look at the articles, but the " quackbusters " affiliation is a<BR>> >>major<BR>> >>hint as to what she'll be saying.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Good job on posting this. This is a perfect example of the power of this<BR>> >>list. Now that the word is out to the list, how about a bunch of docs<BR>> >>showing up<BR>> >>and countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic?<BR>> >><BR>> >>When and where is the Eugene lecture?<BR>> >><BR>> > >Alan <BR>> >>Creswell >Chiropractic<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>> >>seanrobins@... writes:<BR>> >>I googled her name and found some articles by her.<BR>> >><A href= " http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art " >http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art</A><BR>><<A href='http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt= <http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & amp;qt=> " Harriet+A.+Hall " .'>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22. <http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & amp;qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.> </A>><BR>> & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.<BR>> >>Seems she also either writes for or works with Barrett's quackbusters.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > OregonDCs rules:<BR>> > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to<BR>> > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on >listserve<BR>> > members will be tolerated.<BR>> > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.<BR>> > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.<BR>> > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, <BR>>forward,<BR>><BR>> > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without<BR>> > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.<BR>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 I didn’t mean that you’re just a girl. I meant that you are quite a girl!!! ( E. Abrahamson, D.C.) Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic 315 Second Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com From: Sharron Fuchs <sharronf@...> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:40:37 -0700 < > Conversation: Harriet Hall RE PHIL Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL Bunk with the 'best man' hoo ha. Talk and leave the punkish adjectives out. sharron fuchs dc From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of schneider@... Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:37 PM drpsnell@...; ; allen@... Subject: RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL ,Les,Phil.... Count me as one of the 'few' who believe folks like Les and Dan are right on the mark. I do not think the discourse are risen to the level of violating the listserves rules. Passions are running high becouse Phil has touched on a raw nerve here-the definition of what true chiropractic is about. Let the best man win and let the truth live on forever. Schneider PDX ---- Re: Harriet Hall<BR>> >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:33:27 EDT<BR>> >><BR>> >>I didn't look at the articles, but the " quackbusters " affiliation is a<BR>> >>major<BR>> >>hint as to what she'll be saying.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Good job on posting this. This is a perfect example of the power of this<BR>> >>list. Now that the word is out to the list, how about a bunch of docs<BR>> >>showing up<BR>> >>and countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic?<BR>> >><BR>> >>When and where is the Eugene lecture?<BR>> >><BR>> > >Alan <BR>> >>Creswell >Chiropractic<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>> >>seanrobins@... writes:<BR>> >>I googled her name and found some articles by her.<BR>> >><A href= " http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art " >http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art</A><BR>><<A href='http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt= <http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & amp;qt=> " Harriet+A.+Hall " .'>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22. <http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & amp;qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.> </A>><BR>> & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.<BR>> >>Seems she also either writes for or works with Barrett's quackbusters.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > OregonDCs rules:<BR>> > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to<BR>> > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on >listserve<BR>> > members will be tolerated.<BR>> > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.<BR>> > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.<BR>> > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, <BR>>forward,<BR>><BR>> > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without<BR>> > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.<BR>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 The last word on someone who knows how to judge another's effort and the highest standard to be expected may be found in this non-peer reviewed Story below. ( E. Abrahamson, D.C.) Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic 315 Second Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com When the house lights dimmed and the concert was about to begin, the mother returned to her seat and discovered that the child was missing. Suddenly, the curtains parted and spotlights focused on the impressive Steinway on stage. In horror, the mother saw her little boy sitting at the keyboard, innocently picking out " Twinkle,Twinkle Little Star. " At that moment, the great piano master made his entrance, quickly moved to the piano, and whispered in the boy's ear, " Don't quit. " " Keep playing. " Then, leaning over, Paderewski reached down with his left hand and began filling in a bass part. Soon his right arm reached around to the other side of the child, and he added a running obbligato. Together, the old master and the young novice transformed what could have been a frightening situation into a wonderfully creative experience. The audience was so mesmerized that they couldn't recall what else the great master played.Only the classic, " Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. " Perhaps that's the way it is with God. What we can accomplish on our own is hardly noteworthy. We try our best, but the results aren't always graceful flowing music. However, with the hand of the Master, our life's work can truly be beautiful. The next time you set out to accomplish great feats, listen carefully. You may hear the voice of the Master, whispering in your ear, " Don't quit. " " Keep playing. " May you feel His arms around you and know that His hands are there, helping you turn your feeble attempts into true masterpieces. Remember, God doesn't seem to call the equipped, rather, He equips the 'called.' Life is more accurately measured by the lives you touch than by the things you acquire. So touch someone by passing this little message along. May God bless you and be with you always! And remember , " Don't quit. " " Keep playing. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2006 Report Share Posted May 1, 2006 I am not so offended as I am concerned with the tone of some of the discourse. Some times it is mean and some times it feels hateful. We can be colorful with language and some of the writings really are incredible. I just don't think we get any where telling each other we are too stupid to understand what the other person is saying. sharron fuchs dc RE: Harriet Hall RE PHIL Sorry if you are offended by my " punkish adjetives " Sharron. I am a passionate old German and I happen to think a few interesting adjetives add relevant emphasis to my statememts. Just because we are docs does't mean we must sound boring as ditch water all the time. I welcome the colorful poetic license I often see on this list service. Will Schneider PDX ----- Re: Harriet Hall<BR>> >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 >13:33:27 EDT<BR>> >><BR>> >>I didn't look at the articles, but the > " quackbusters " affiliation is a<BR>> >>major<BR>> >>hint as to what >she'll be saying.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Good job on posting this. This is a >perfect example of the power of this<BR>> >>list. Now that the word is >out to the list, how about a bunch of docs<BR>> >>showing up<BR>> >>and >countering what will most likely be a hatchet job on chiropractic?<BR>> >>><BR>> >>When and where is the Eugene lecture?<BR>> >><BR>> > >Alan ><BR>> >>Creswell >>Chiropractic<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> >>In a message dated 4/26/2006 >10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>> >>seanrobins@... >writes:<BR>> >>I googled her name and found some articles by her.<BR>> >>><A >href= " http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art " >http://www.findartic >l >es.com/p/search?tb=art</A><BR>><<A >href='http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt= " Harriet+A.+Hall " . ' >>http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.< >>/ >A>><BR>> & qt=%22Harriet+A.+Hall%22.<BR>> >>Seems she also either writes >for or works with Barrett's quackbusters.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > >OregonDCs rules:<BR>> > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the >purpose of the listserve is to<BR>> > foster communication and >collegiality. No personal attacks on >>listserve<BR>> > members will be tolerated.<BR>> > 2. Always sign your >e-mails with your first and last name.<BR>> > 3. The listserve is not >secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.<BR>> > However, it is >against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, ><BR>>forward,<BR>><BR>> > or otherwise distribute correspondence >written by another member without<BR>> > his or her consent, unless all >personal identifiers have been removed.<BR>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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