Update re. quitting managed care(long)

March 2, 2006

Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since

quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two

previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when

their new contract finally crossed my " line-in-the-sand " with its 10

dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just

wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not

easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in

this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January

2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just

beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients one

bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and

he wrote on his intake form that he was " in perfect health except for

his neck pain " (meaning all his " levels " were under

control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for

'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking

toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark

existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a

chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.

He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3

pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request for

further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make

such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that

cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin

nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was

dangerous etc.

I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no

idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an

Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I

made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.

All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years

and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them

work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law school

etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from

there vacation homes in Hawaii.

Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are

rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,

docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,

pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,

GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a

'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will

never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on

this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to

undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than

what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it

would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the

horsey-world.

Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly

related to the following: " The amount of responsibility that you

willingly take on. " (Danny Drubin said that)....

Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad make

150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for

multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a

million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking

responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).

So why would we want to participate in a model that

ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME

RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??

You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the

questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then

chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always

look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have

the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR questions!!!

But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,

that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to

answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.

This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined

another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the initial

seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness

Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I

guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you

that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping

people to improve their health in ways that are

reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons

who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up

in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below and

look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.

J.

www.springbrookclinic.com

Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center

www.cspine.org

Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar

March 2, 2006

GREAT post . I needed that kind of thinking today....a little refreshment in all the clamor!!!!!!!!

Don WHite, RN, DC

March 3, 2006

Hey

Could you tell me why our board of examiners is not reprimanding the Dc at

Kaiser for under utilization? As well as those DC's who are treating

patient's along those model's?

Danno

Update re. quitting managed care(long)

> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since

> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two

> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when

> their new contract finally crossed my " line-in-the-sand " with its 10

> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just

> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not

> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in

> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January

> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just

> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients one

> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and

> he wrote on his intake form that he was " in perfect health except for

> his neck pain " (meaning all his " levels " were under

> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for

> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking

> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark

> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a

> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.

> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3

> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request for

> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make

> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that

> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin

> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was

> dangerous etc.

>

> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no

> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an

> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I

> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.

> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years

> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them

> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law school

> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from

> there vacation homes in Hawaii.

>

> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are

> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,

> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,

> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,

> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a

> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will

> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on

> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to

> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than

> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it

> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the

> horsey-world.

>

> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly

> related to the following: " The amount of responsibility that you

> willingly take on. " (Danny Drubin said that)....

> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad make

> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for

> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a

> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking

> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).

>

> So why would we want to participate in a model that

> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME

> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??

>

> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the

> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then

> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always

> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have

> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR questions!!!

> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,

> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to

> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.

>

> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined

> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the initial

> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness

> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I

> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you

> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping

> people to improve their health in ways that are

> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons

> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up

> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below and

> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.

>

> J.

>

> www.springbrookclinic.com

> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center

>

> www.cspine.org

> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

> members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

> or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without

> his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

March 3, 2006

HI ,

Thanks for this good post. Wellness is a large part of chiropractic's

future. In the public's mind, we arguably lead all health care systems

in " the natural way. " Economic forces are leveraging more personal

responsibility for one's own health. What's missing is a chiropractic

equivalent of dentistry's " brush your teeth every day " campaign. This

may reasonably be accomplished by bringing forth a simple, accessible,

effective active care protocol that we give away to everyone. This

protocol would teach the basics of working with innate (putting the

mind to work in the body in order to access parasympathetic rather than

sympathetic NS) by teaching a simple and safe conscious breathing

pattern. It would couple the breath training with simple, aligned

resting (open chain) postures to allow everyone the tools for

recognizing chronically tight muscles and the ability to willfully let

them relax. This protocol would allow everyone, by conscious

relaxation of spinal musculature, to learn how to self-mobilize VMS.

They'll be able to 'get their own pops.'

A second component to our professional future involves the ever

increasing number of citizens unable to access health care. Each year

recent history has seen it worsen nationally. Cuts this week in

Federal support have lead to a further $60 some million reduction in

health care for Oregonians. The profession that organizes itself to

support this growing base of 'untreateds' will capitalize on the public

goodwill to it's benefit. By providing care at a foundational level

for little or no charge, chiropractic could protect itself from the

avarice of cost controllers. The best thing we could do for ourselves

is the best thing. If community docs organized a one or two day a

month " free clinic " at rotating offices, it would be important first

steps toward community recognition of our intent. OutsideIn, which I

work with in Portland, is recruiting docs to receive one or two

indigent patients per month on referral from their clinic at the doc's

office - maximal contribution for minimal effort. This seems like a

workable model for other communities.

These two things seem worth further investigation. I'm curious if

these are lines brought up by the ICA Conference on Wellness?

Sears

NW Portland

On Mar 2, 2006, at 11:08 AM, cdc@... wrote:

> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since

> quitting CHP.Â Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two

> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when

> their new contract finally crossed my " line-in-the-sand " with its 10

> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just

> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not

> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in

> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January

> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just

> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients

> one

> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and

> he wrote on his intake form that he was " in perfect health except for

> his neck pain " (meaning all his " levels " were under

> control!!!!!).......Â he was referred to me for 3 treatments for

> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking

> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark

> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a

> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.

> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3

> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request

> for

> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make

> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that

> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin

> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was

> dangerous etc.

>

> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no

> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an

> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I

> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.

> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years

> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them

> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law

> school

> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from

> there vacation homes in Hawaii.

>

> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are

> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,

> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,

> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,

> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your worldÂ as a

> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will

> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on

> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to

> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than

> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to beÂ a horse...it

> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the

> horsey-world.

>

> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly

> related to the following: " The amount of responsibility that you

> willingly take on. " (Danny Drubin said that)....

> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad

> make

> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for

> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a

> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking

> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).

>

> So why would we want to participate in a model that

> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME

> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??

>

> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the

> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then

> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always

> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have

> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR

> questions!!!

> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,

> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to

> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.

>

> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined

> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the

> initial

> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness

> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I

> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you

> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping

> people to improve their health in ways that are

> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons

> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up

> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.orgÂ link below

> and

> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.

>

> J.

>

> www.springbrookclinic.com

> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center

>

> www.cspine.org

> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is

> to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> listserve members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

> member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers

> have been removed.

>

March 3, 2006

Just an aside, would a reprimand first require a formal complaint?

J. Holzapfel DC

Albany

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 07:00:38 -0800 " D Beebe, D.C." <res0btan@...> writes:

Hey Could you tell me why our board of examiners is not reprimanding the Dc at Kaiser for under utilization? As well as those DC's who are treating patient's along those model's?Danno Update re. quitting managed care(long)> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when> their new contract finally crossed my "line-in-the-sand" with its 10> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients one> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and> he wrote on his intake form that he was "in perfect health except for> his neck pain" (meaning all his "levels" were under> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request for> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was> dangerous etc.>> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law school> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from> there vacation homes in Hawaii.>> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the> horsey-world.>> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly> related to the following: "The amount of responsibility that you> willingly take on." (Danny Drubin said that)....> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad make> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).>> So why would we want to participate in a model that> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??>>> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR questions!!!> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.>> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the initial> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping> people to improve their health in ways that are> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below and> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.>>>> J. >> www.springbrookclinic.com> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center>> www.cspine.org> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar>>> OregonDCs rules:> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > members will be tolerated.> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.>

March 3, 2006

so the question then becomes " are the Doc's operating under those models

underutilizing .. in terms of accepting a patient (money) for treatment of a

condition that cannot or has little chance of absolving ? "

Danno

Update re. quitting managed care(long)

>

>> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since

>> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two

>> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when

>> their new contract finally crossed my " line-in-the-sand " with its 10

>> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just

>> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not

>> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in

>> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January

>> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just

>> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients

> one

>> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and

>> he wrote on his intake form that he was " in perfect health except for

>> his neck pain " (meaning all his " levels " were under

>> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for

>> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking

>> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark

>> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a

>> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.

>> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3

>> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request

> for

>> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make

>> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that

>> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin

>> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was

>> dangerous etc.

>>

>> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no

>> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an

>> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I

>> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.

>> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years

>> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them

>> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law

> school

>> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from

>> there vacation homes in Hawaii.

>>

>> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are

>> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,

>> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,

>> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,

>> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a

>> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will

>> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on

>> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to

>> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than

>> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it

>> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the

>> horsey-world.

>>

>> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly

>> related to the following: " The amount of responsibility that you

>> willingly take on. " (Danny Drubin said that)....

>> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad

> make

>> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for

>> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a

>> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking

>> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).

>>

>> So why would we want to participate in a model that

>> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME

>> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??

>>

>> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the

>> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then

>> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always

>> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have

>> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR

> questions!!!

>> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,

>> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to

>> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.

>>

>> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined

>> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the

> initial

>> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness

>> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I

>> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you

>> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping

>> people to improve their health in ways that are

>> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons

>> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up

>> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below

> and

>> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.

>>

>> J.

>>

>> www.springbrookclinic.com

>> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center

>>

>> www.cspine.org

>> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar

>>

>> OregonDCs rules:

>> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is

> to

>> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> listserve

>> members will be tolerated.

>> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

>> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

>> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> forward,

>> or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

> without

>> his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>>

March 3, 2006

Keep us posted on how your first 'indigent' day goes. What level of referrals you get would be of interest. What level of interest toward wellness care will you find?

My experience has found that when I give care away for free, some type of problem always arises somewhere down the line. Americans don't seem to respect what they don't pay for. Interesting dicotomy, that.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

From: "dm.bones@..." <dm.bones@...>cdc@...CC: Subject: Re: Update re. quitting managed care(long)Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:18:27 -0800HI ,Thanks for this good post. Wellness is a large part of chiropractic's future. In the public's mind, we arguably lead all health care systems in "the natural way." Economic forces are leveraging more personal responsibility for one's own health. What's missing is a chiropractic equivalent of dentistry's "brush your teeth every day" campaign. This may reasonably be accomplished by bringing forth a simple, accessible, effective active care protocol that we give away to everyone. This protocol would teach the basics of working with innate (putting the mind to work in the body in order to access parasympathetic rather than sympathetic NS) by teaching a simple and safe conscious breathing pattern. It would couple the breath training with simple, aligned resting (open chain) postures to allow everyone the tools for recognizing chronically tight muscles and the ability to willfully let them relax. This protocol would allow everyone, by conscious relaxation of spinal musculature, to learn how to self-mobilize VMS. They'll be able to 'get their own pops.'A second component to our professional future involves the ever increasing number of citizens unable to access health care. Each year recent history has seen it worsen nationally. Cuts this week in Federal support have lead to a further $60 some million reduction in health care for Oregonians. The profession that organizes itself to support this growing base of 'untreateds' will capitalize on the public goodwill to it's benefit. By providing care at a foundational level for little or no charge, chiropractic could protect itself from the avarice of cost controllers. The best thing we could do for ourselves is the best thing. If community docs organized a one or two day a month "free clinic" at rotating offices, it would be important first steps toward community recognition of our intent. OutsideIn, which I work with in Portland, is recruiting docs to receive one or two indigent patients per month on referral from their clinic at the doc's office - maximal contribution for minimal effort. This seems like a workable model for other communities.These two things seem worth further investigation. I'm curious if these are lines brought up by the ICA Conference on Wellness? SearsNW PortlandOn Mar 2, 2006, at 11:08 AM, cdc@... wrote:>Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress >since> quitting CHP.Â Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one >or two> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) >when> their new contract finally crossed my "line-in-the-sand" with its >10> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is >not> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and >in> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, >anwho....January> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we >just> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral >patients one> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications >and> he wrote on his intake form that he was "in perfect health except >for> his neck pain" (meaning all his "levels" were under> control!!!!!).......Â he was referred to me for 3 treatments for> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this >walking> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of >it.> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his >3> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational >request for> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that >make> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was> dangerous etc.>> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from >an> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in >1985 I> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a >dope.> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ >years> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of >them> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law >school> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from> there vacation homes in Hawaii.>> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession >are> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, >CHPs,> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, >allopathic,> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your worldÂ as a> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you >will> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks >on> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other >than> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to beÂ a >horse...it> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in >the> horsey-world.>> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly> related to the following: "The amount of responsibility that you> willingly take on." (Danny Drubin said that)....> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad >make> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility >for> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).>> So why would we want to participate in a model that> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY >ASSUME> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??>>> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of >the> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, >then> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't >have> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR >questions!!!> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality >is,> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and >hands) to> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.>> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the >initial> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this >class, I> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise >you> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping> people to improve their health in ways that are> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma >morons> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it >up> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.orgÂ link >below and> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.>>>> J. >> www.springbrookclinic.com> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center>> www.cspine.org> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar>>>OregonDCs rules:> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve >is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on >listserve members will be tolerated.> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. >However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, >forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another >member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers >have been removed.>>>>

March 3, 2006

I am not sure it would... the board has an investigator does it not? And this would be a "danger" to public safety would it not?

Update re. quitting managed care(long)> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when> their new contract finally crossed my "line-in-the-sand" with its 10> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients one> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and> he wrote on his intake form that he was "in perfect health except for> his neck pain" (meaning all his "levels" were under> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request for> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was> dangerous etc.>> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law school> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from> there vacation homes in Hawaii.>> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the> horsey-world.>> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly> related to the following: "The amount of responsibility that you> willingly take on." (Danny Drubin said that)....> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad make> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).>> So why would we want to participate in a model that> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??>>> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR questions!!!> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.>> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the initial> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping> people to improve their health in ways that are> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below and> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.>>>> J. >> www.springbrookclinic.com> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center>> www.cspine.org> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar>>> OregonDCs rules:> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > members will be tolerated.> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.>

March 3, 2006

Ahhh, great point Danno!

When are " we " (or an insurance company, or a managed care organization)

guilty of " medical mal-practice " for prescribing such a minute amount of

care, for which there is NO CLINICAL JUSTIFICATION, NO STUDIES, AND BEST

PRACTICE STANDARDS?

M. s, D.C.

Update re. quitting managed care(long)

> >

> >> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since

> >> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two

> >> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when

> >> their new contract finally crossed my " line-in-the-sand " with its 10

> >> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just

> >> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not

> >> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in

> >> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January

> >> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just

> >> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients

> > one

> >> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and

> >> he wrote on his intake form that he was " in perfect health except for

> >> his neck pain " (meaning all his " levels " were under

> >> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for

> >> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking

> >> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark

> >> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a

> >> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.

> >> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3

> >> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request

> > for

> >> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make

> >> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that

> >> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin

> >> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was

> >> dangerous etc.

> >>

> >> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no

> >> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an

> >> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I

> >> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.

> >> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years

> >> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them

> >> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law

> > school

> >> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from

> >> there vacation homes in Hawaii.

> >>

> >> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are

> >> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,

> >> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,

> >> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,

> >> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a

> >> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will

> >> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on

> >> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to

> >> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than

> >> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it

> >> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the

> >> horsey-world.

> >>

> >> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly

> >> related to the following: " The amount of responsibility that you

> >> willingly take on. " (Danny Drubin said that)....

> >> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad

> > make

> >> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for

> >> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a

> >> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking

> >> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).

> >>

> >> So why would we want to participate in a model that

> >> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME

> >> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??

> >>

> >> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the

> >> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then

> >> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always

> >> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have

> >> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR

> > questions!!!

> >> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,

> >> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to

> >> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.

> >>

> >> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined

> >> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the

> > initial

> >> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness

> >> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I

> >> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you

> >> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping

> >> people to improve their health in ways that are

> >> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons

> >> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up

> >> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below

> > and

> >> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.

> >>

> >> J.

> >>

> >> www.springbrookclinic.com

> >> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center

> >>

> >> www.cspine.org

> >> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar

> >>

> >> OregonDCs rules:

> >> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is

> > to

> >> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> > listserve

> >> members will be tolerated.

> >> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> >> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> >> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> > forward,

> >> or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

> > without

> >> his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

> >>

March 3, 2006

I too recently resigned from CHP and have since see

growth in my practice. The reasons were many,

especially the Kaiser referrals. One case comes to

mind, a 32 year old woman with migraine headaches for

15 years was allowed 3 visits. I could not care for

her under these constraints. She went somewhere else

after I gave her my recommendations for care, mainly

pointing out that 3 visits would barely scrape the

surface of her problems. In my view, 3 visits does the

chiropractic profession a disservice. She will say

that chiropractic does not work if she is not resolved

in 3 visits. I can't let this happen to my profession

because chiropractic does work!

Conroy, DC

Portland

--- " s, D.C. " <drbobdc@...>

wrote:

> Ahhh, great point Danno!

>

> When are " we " (or an insurance company, or a managed

> care organization)

> guilty of " medical mal-practice " for prescribing

> such a minute amount of

> care, for which there is NO CLINICAL JUSTIFICATION,

> NO STUDIES, AND BEST

> PRACTICE STANDARDS?

>

> M. s, D.C.

> Update re. quitting managed

> care(long)

> > >

> > >> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update

> re. my progress since

> > >> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I

> mentioned in one or two

> > >> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of

> the end of 2005) when

> > >> their new contract finally crossed my

> " line-in-the-sand " with its 10

> > >> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams

> etc. Well, I just

> > >> wanted to let you all know that whenever you

> quit a network, it is not

> > >> easy of course because your patients are

> begging you to stay and in

> > >> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz.

> Well, anwho....January

> > >> 2006 was our best month ever as far as

> patients/day and then we just

> > >> beat that in February. I do not miss those

> Kaiser referral patients

> > > one

> > >> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on

> like 13 medications and

> > >> he wrote on his intake form that he was " in

> perfect health except for

> > >> his neck pain " (meaning all his " levels " were

> under

> > >> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for

> 3 treatments for

> > >> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief

> time with this walking

> > >> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some

> light into his dark

> > >> existence. I called on all of my life

> experience and 9 years as a

> > >> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he

> would have none of it.

> > >> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model

> and just wanted his 3

> > >> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My

> common-sense, rational request

> > > for

> > >> further care was of course denied by the

> absolute jackasses that make

> > >> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter

> back saying that

> > >> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or

> some such freakin

> > >> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that

> c-spine adjusting was

> > >> dangerous etc.

> > >>

> > >> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees

> ;-)]...but folks, I am no

> > >> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical

> Engineering from an

> > >> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years

> out of college in 1985 I

> > >> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and

> that job by being a dope.

> > >> All my friends/cohorts from school have been

> out of school 20+ years

> > >> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the

> BS degree! Most of them

> > >> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got

> masters or went to law

> > > school

> > >> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they

> send me emails from

> > >> there vacation homes in Hawaii.

> > >>

> > >> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems

> in our profession are

> > >> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro

> profession, schools, CHPs,

> > >> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic,

> reductionistic, allopathic,

> > >> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm

> , in my opinion,

> > >> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in

> your world as a

> > >> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely

> GUARANTEES that you will

> > >> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic

> TECHNICIAN. Folks on

> > >> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the

> guys/gals I went to

> > >> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to

> be something other than

> > >> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying

> to be a horse...it

> > >> would not work very well...the Zebra would

> never be a leader in the

> > >> horsey-world.

> > >>

> > >> Folks: the level of abundance and success in

> your life is directly

> > >> related to the following: " The amount of

> responsibility that you

> > >> willingly take on. " (Danny Drubin said

> that)....

> > >> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering

> friends from udergrad

> > > make

> > >> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to

> take responsibility for

> > >> multi-million dollar projects). And my college

> room-mate makes a

> > >> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for

> Blackberry, taking

> > >> responsibility for a case that has billions of

> dollars at stake).

> > >>

> > >> So why would we want to participate in a model

> that

> > >> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability

> to WILLINGLY ASSUME

> > >> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??

> > >>

> > >> You see, the quality of your life is determined

> by the quality of the

> > >> questions you ask. If you are always asking

> 'medical' questions, then

> > >> chiropractors will never have the best answer.

> We will always

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

March 3, 2006

Also, it seems absolutely a danger to the public to not have their

complaints diagnosed correctly. Many MCO's aren't paying for diagnosis

anymore. Or, if they do, it's very minimal and a minimal exam gets paid the

same as a comprehensive. Same with treatment. They are paying the same

paltry fee for a 98940 as a 98943. This will never make sense to me. They

don't pay for any adjunctive care that IS Necessary to the patient. This is

also a danger to them. It's a danger to the public because it induces

apathy in the practitioner and many times may alter treatment. It's a danger

to them because they don't get the same care as someone with the same

condition with a different insurance plan. Nobody wants to treat for

free(for the most part).

Now I know, " don't sign the contract then doc " , but it just seems to me that

their should be a screen out there of some sort. A bare minimum that MUST be

offerred to the physicians for certain procedures. Otherwise, how low can

you go certainly becomes detrimental to the public welfare and safety no??

Dr. ph Medlin D.C.

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1627 NE Alberta St. #6

Portland, OR 97211

Ph: 503-788-6800

c: 503-889-6204

Update re. quitting managed care(long)

>> >

>> >> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since

>> >> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two

>> >> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when

>> >> their new contract finally crossed my " line-in-the-sand " with its 10

>> >> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just

>> >> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not

>> >> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in

>> >> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January

>> >> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just

>> >> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients

>> > one

>> >> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and

>> >> he wrote on his intake form that he was " in perfect health except for

>> >> his neck pain " (meaning all his " levels " were under

>> >> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for

>> >> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking

>> >> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark

>> >> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a

>> >> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.

>> >> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3

>> >> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request

>> > for

>> >> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make

>> >> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that

>> >> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin

>> >> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was

>> >> dangerous etc.

>> >>

>> >> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no

>> >> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an

>> >> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I

>> >> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.

>> >> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years

>> >> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them

>> >> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law

>> > school

>> >> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from

>> >> there vacation homes in Hawaii.

>> >>

>> >> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are

>> >> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,

>> >> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,

>> >> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,

>> >> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a

>> >> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will

>> >> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on

>> >> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to

>> >> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than

>> >> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it

>> >> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the

>> >> horsey-world.

>> >>

>> >> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly

>> >> related to the following: " The amount of responsibility that you

>> >> willingly take on. " (Danny Drubin said that)....

>> >> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad

>> > make

>> >> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for

>> >> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a

>> >> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking

>> >> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).

>> >>

>> >> So why would we want to participate in a model that

>> >> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME

>> >> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??

>> >>

>> >> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the

>> >> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then

>> >> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always

>> >> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have

>> >> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR

>> > questions!!!

>> >> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,

>> >> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to

>> >> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.

>> >>

>> >> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined

>> >> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the

>> > initial

>> >> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness

>> >> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I

>> >> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you

>> >> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping

>> >> people to improve their health in ways that are

>> >> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons

>> >> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up

>> >> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below

>> > and

>> >> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.

>> >>

>> >> J.

>> >>

>> >> www.springbrookclinic.com

>> >> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center

>> >>

>> >> www.cspine.org

>> >> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar

>> >>

>> >> OregonDCs rules:

>> >> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is

>> > to

>> >> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

>> > listserve

>> >> members will be tolerated.

>> >> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

>> >> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

>> >> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

>> > forward,

>> >> or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

>> > without

>> >> his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>> >>

March 3, 2006

I would acknowledge the "danger" without question. To the best of my knowledge, the board's investigator is under the direction of the board and therefore would not investigate unless directed to do so, which brings me back to my original question. Could/would the board investigate in the absence of a formal complaint from an outside party? I am curious, has the board investigated anyone on the board's own volition? There I go, ruminating again...

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:49:35 -0800 " D Beebe, D.C." <res0btan@...> writes:

I am not sure it would... the board has an investigator does it not? And this would be a "danger" to public safety would it not?

Update re. quitting managed care(long)> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when> their new contract finally crossed my "line-in-the-sand" with its 10> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients one> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and> he wrote on his intake form that he was "in perfect health except for> his neck pain" (meaning all his "levels" were under> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request for> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was> dangerous etc.>> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law school> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from> there vacation homes in Hawaii.>> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the> horsey-world.>> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly> related to the following: "The amount of responsibility that you> willingly take on." (Danny Drubin said that)....> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad make> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).>> So why would we want to participate in a model that> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??>>> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR questions!!!> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.>> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the initial> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping> people to improve their health in ways that are> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below and> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.>>>> J. >> www.springbrookclinic.com> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center>> www.cspine.org> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar>>> OregonDCs rules:> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > members will be tolerated.> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.>

March 3, 2006

In my opinion, yes ,the doctor would be undertreating, but would be protected if the records documented the request for more care and the denial of it from Kaiser. The real malpractice would be against Kaiser.

sharron fuchs dc

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of D Beebe, D.C.Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 9:50 AMKEVIN J HOLZAPFEL DCCc: oregondcSubject: Re: Update re. quitting managed care(long)

I am not sure it would... the board has an investigator does it not? And this would be a "danger" to public safety would it not?

Update re. quitting managed care(long)> Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress since> quitting CHP. Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one or two> previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005) when> their new contract finally crossed my "line-in-the-sand" with its 10> dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just> wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is not> easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and in> this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well, anwho....January> 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we just> beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral patients one> bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications and> he wrote on his intake form that he was "in perfect health except for> his neck pain" (meaning all his "levels" were under> control!!!!!)....... he was referred to me for 3 treatments for> 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this walking> toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark> existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a> chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of it.> He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his 3> pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational request for> further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that make> such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that> cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin> nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was> dangerous etc.>> I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no> idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from an> Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in 1985 I> made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a dope.> All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+ years> and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of them> work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law school> etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from> there vacation homes in Hawaii.>> Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession are> rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools, CHPs,> docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic, allopathic,> pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,> GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your world as a> 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you will> never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks on> this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to> undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other than> what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to be a horse...it> would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in the> horsey-world.>> Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly> related to the following: "The amount of responsibility that you> willingly take on." (Danny Drubin said that)....> Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad make> 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility for> multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a> million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking> responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).>> So why would we want to participate in a model that> ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY ASSUME> RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??>>> You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of the> questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions, then> chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always> look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't have> the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR questions!!!> But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality is,> that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and hands) to> answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.>> This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined> another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the initial> seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness> Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this class, I> guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise you> that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping> people to improve their health in ways that are> reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma morons> who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it up> in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.org link below and> look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.>>>> J. >> www.springbrookclinic.com> Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center>> www.cspine.org> Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar>>> OregonDCs rules:> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > members will be tolerated.> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, > or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.>

March 3, 2006

Hi Sunny,

My experience with the 'indigent' is a little different... I've been

working at OutsideIn now since 1984, seeing patients pro bono on a

twice weekly basis - about 9 hours a month. While it's possible to get

docs into an 'indigent' clinic to volunteer, we're beginning to think

that arranging the patient's visit at the doc's office will be easier

on the physician and more productive for everyone in the long run. The

OI practice has gone from homeless kids over the years to mostly

working poor now. While I supervise senior interns now for WSCC, we're

seeing workers who are hurt and unable to continue working in many

cases. Also, boomers who have no other recourse for health care and

present with chronic problems. Case management is difficult because of

the lack of continuity - I won't be back until two weeks. The schedule

is full for a month out on treating days. It's case management in less

organized pro bono efforts that have probably led to problems that you

mention.

As to 'wellness' care - that's not the place for the most part. Pain

relief is still a VERY IMPORTANT PART of chiropractic, particularly

when getting people back to work. I'm looking for grant money to do a

demonstration project with the yoga I teach, involving the homeless

kids coming off the street into OI's transitional housing, but the

general patient population needs traditional NMS pain relief to get

back to their lives.

You and Jack both have experience leading you to express disappointment

with pro bono work. I understand. Such an effort is much better when

it's shared in a way that gives it a beginning and an end, and where

the doc's office is not the only entity involved in the deal. With the

OI assignment of patients to offices, all assignments would come from

OI. Patients would have to schedule thru OI. A doc could call OI to

make sure a patient is seen again, but otherwise the patient would have

to take responsibility for rescheduling. This model also probably

works better in a larger town than smaller one. If people in Sweethome

need help, everyone knows who to go to already.

The value of engaging the profession in this type of effort is for the

PR leverage it would allow us, in addition to helping out real people.

The idea would be to promote the work through the Board, WSCC, etc. If

it is put forward soon, we will be the first major health care

profession to model volunteer effort as a solution (or partial

solution) to health access problems nationally, or at least statewide.

So much of the problem of getting people to volunteer their work is

tied up in thinking that they can't solve the problem themsleves, it's

just too big and their efforts are so small. But whoever starts taking

small steps will eventually cover more ground. It's that simple.

As to respect for the work 'indigents' receive, it can't be beat.

Sears

NW Portland

On Mar 3, 2006, at 9:05 AM, sunny Kierstyn wrote:

> Keep us posted on how your first 'indigent' day goes. What level of

> referrals you get would be of interest. What level of interest

> toward wellness care will you find?

>

> My experience has found that when I give care away for free, some type

> of problem always arises somewhere down the line. Americans don't

> seem to respect what they don't pay for. Interesting dicotomy,

> that.

>

> Sunny

>

> Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC

> Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon

> 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

>

> Eugene, Oregon, 97401

>

> 541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

>> From: " dm.bones@... " <dm.bones@...>

>> cdc@...

>> CC:

>> Subject: Re: Update re. quitting managed care(long)

>> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:18:27 -0800

>> HI ,

>>

>> Thanks for this good post. Wellness is a large part of chiropractic's

>> future. In the public's mind, we arguably lead all health care

>> systems in " the natural way. " Economic forces are leveraging more

>> personal responsibility for one's own health. What's missing is a

>> chiropractic equivalent of dentistry's " brush your teeth every day "

>> campaign. This may reasonably be accomplished by bringing forth a

>> simple, accessible, effective active care protocol that we give away

>> to everyone. This protocol would teach the basics of working with

>> innate (putting the mind to work in the body in order to access

>> parasympathetic rather than sympathetic NS) by teaching a simple and

>> safe conscious breathing pattern. It would couple the breath training

>> with simple, aligned resting (open chain) postures to allow everyone

>> the tools for recognizing chronically tight muscles and the ability

>> to willfully let them relax. This protocol would allow everyone, by

>> conscious relaxation of spinal musculature, to learn how to

>> self-mobilize VMS. They'll be able to 'get their own pops.'

>>

>> A second component to our professional future involves the ever

>> increasing number of citizens unable to access health care. Each year

>> recent history has seen it worsen nationally. Cuts this week in

>> Federal support have lead to a further $60 some million reduction in

>> health care for Oregonians. The profession that organizes itself to

>> support this growing base of 'untreateds' will capitalize on the

>> public goodwill to it's benefit. By providing care at a foundational

>> level for little or no charge, chiropractic could protect itself from

>> the avarice of cost controllers. The best thing we could do for

>> ourselves is the best thing. If community docs organized a one or two

>> day a month " free clinic " at rotating offices, it would be important

>> first steps toward community recognition of our intent. OutsideIn,

>> which I work with in Portland, is recruiting docs to receive one or

>> two indigent patients per month on referral from their clinic at the

>> doc's office - maximal contribution for minimal effort. This seems

>> like a workable model for other communities.

>>

>> These two things seem worth further investigation. I'm curious if

>> these are lines brought up by the ICA Conference on Wellness?

>>

>> Sears

>> NW Portland

>>

>> On Mar 2, 2006, at 11:08 AM, cdc@... wrote:

>>

>> >Hey folks,I just wanted to give a little update re. my progress

>> >since

>> > quitting CHP.Â Some of you may remember that I mentioned in one

>> >or two

>> > previous posts that I recently quit CHP (as of the end of 2005)

>> >when

>> > their new contract finally crossed my " line-in-the-sand " with its

>> >10

>> > dollar re-exams ans 20 dollar initial pt. exams etc. Well, I just

>> > wanted to let you all know that whenever you quit a network, it is

>> >not

>> > easy of course because your patients are begging you to stay and

>> >in

>> > this case CHP was perhaps 5-7% of my total biz. Well,

>> >anwho....January

>> > 2006 was our best month ever as far as patients/day and then we

>> >just

>> > beat that in February. I do not miss those Kaiser referral

>> >patients one

>> > bit. The last kaiser referral pt. I saw was on like 13 medications

>> >and

>> > he wrote on his intake form that he was " in perfect health except

>> >for

>> > his neck pain " (meaning all his " levels " were under

>> > control!!!!!).......Â he was referred to me for 3 treatments for

>> > 'cervicalgia' by his PCP. I tried, in my brief time with this

>> >walking

>> > toxic chemistry experiment, to breath some light into his dark

>> > existence. I called on all of my life experience and 9 years as a

>> > chiro...I used the socratic method etc, but he would have none of

>> >it.

>> > He was a devout worshipper of the Kaiser model and just wanted his

>> >3

>> > pops, which I dutifully gave him. My common-sense, rational

>> >request for

>> > further care was of course denied by the absolute jackasses that

>> >make

>> > such decisions there at kaiser. I got a letter back saying that

>> > cervicalgia does not respond to chiropractic or some such freakin

>> > nonsense...I think it also mentioned that c-spine adjusting was

>> > dangerous etc.

>> >

>> > I am no genius [although MENSA disagees ;-)]...but folks, I am no

>> > idiot...I have a Bachelors degree in mechanical Engineering from

>> >an

>> > Ivy-league level school and my first 3 years out of college in

>> >1985 I

>> > made 50k/year. I did not get that degree and that job by being a

>> >dope.

>> > All my friends/cohorts from school have been out of school 20+

>> >years

>> > and they ALL make 6 figures even with just the BS degree! Most of

>> >them

>> > work 9-5 and no extra time. Those who got masters or went to law

>> >school

>> > etc. are rocking and rolling, trust me....they send me emails from

>> > there vacation homes in Hawaii.

>> >

>> > Folks: The source of almost all of the problems in our profession

>> >are

>> > rooted in the fact that much of the chiro profession, schools,

>> >CHPs,

>> > docs etc. have adopted the mechanistic, reductionistic,

>> >allopathic,

>> > pain-based, medical model. This model/paradigm , in my opinion,

>> > GUARANTEES that you will have mediocrity in your worldÂ as a

>> > 'chiropractic physician' .....it absolutely GUARANTEES that you

>> >will

>> > never be recognized as more than a chiropractic TECHNICIAN. Folks

>> >on

>> > this list-serv are every bit as smart as the guys/gals I went to

>> > undergrad with. But many chiros are trying to be something other

>> >than

>> > what they should be. It is like a Zebra trying to beÂ a

>> >horse...it

>> > would not work very well...the Zebra would never be a leader in

>> >the

>> > horsey-world.

>> >

>> > Folks: the level of abundance and success in your life is directly

>> > related to the following: " The amount of responsibility that you

>> > willingly take on. " (Danny Drubin said that)....

>> > Folks, that is why my mechanical engineering friends from udergrad

>> >make

>> > 150k/year in a 9-5 office job(they are able to take responsibility

>> >for

>> > multi-million dollar projects). And my college room-mate makes a

>> > million dollars per year (he is a litigator for Blackberry, taking

>> > responsibility for a case that has billions of dollars at stake).

>> >

>> > So why would we want to participate in a model that

>> > ABSOLUTELY-FREAKIN-GUARANTEES that your ability to WILLINGLY

>> >ASSUME

>> > RESPONSIBILITY is tremendously limited??!!??

>> >

>> > You see, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of

>> >the

>> > questions you ask. If you are always asking 'medical' questions,

>> >then

>> > chiropractors will never have the best answer. We will always

>> > look/seem/BE IMPOTENT. Why do we look impotent? Becuase we don't

>> >have

>> > the tools (drugs and surgery and bio-tech) to answer THEIR

>> >questions!!!

>> > But folks, they are asking the wrong questions. And the reality

>> >is,

>> > that we actually have the right tools (our heads, hearts and

>> >hands) to

>> > answer the RIGHT questions about health and wellness.

>> >

>> > This past weekend about 30-40 forward-thinking Oregon DCs joined

>> > another 60 or so from Washington and other states to attend the

>> >initial

>> > seminar of the ICA-sponsored Certified Chiropractic Wellness

>> > Practitioner program, that is being held in Seattle. In this

>> >class, I

>> > guarantee you can learn how to ask the right questions. I promise

>> >you

>> > that you can learn how to assume greater responsibility in helping

>> > people to improve their health in ways that are

>> > reasonable/true/rational and completely free of the big-pharma

>> >morons

>> > who rule the day. If you missed the first session, you can make it

>> >up

>> > in Minesota or other location. Check out the cspine.orgÂ link

>> >below and

>> > look on calendar for april 1-2 for more info. Cheers.

>> >

>> > J.

>> >

>> > www.springbrookclinic.com

>> > Springbrook Chiropractic & Natural Health Center

>> >

>> > www.cspine.org

>> > Home of the Oregon Chiropractic Forums and Online Calendar

>> >

>> >OregonDCs rules:

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>> >

March 4, 2006

Why would diagnosing physicians refer to one another with restrictions

on what could be done with the referral?

When I refer for a neuro evaluation, I don't limit what the referral

doc can do, or how long he has to do it. Why should we be treated any

differently receiving referrals? I understand the need to direct care

for referrals to non-diagnosing care givers (PTs, LMTs, etc.), but not

to someone qualified to evaluate the patient from a recognizably

trained and collectively accepted profession. A referral to a

neurosurgeon is not always for surgery, but for her diagnosing

expertise at a particular point in the patient's care. A referral to a

chiropractor is for that person's diagnostic capability in order to

shed light on the next best course of action, not any pre-conceived

notion of what the chiropractor is to do.