RE: Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?

June 9, 2005

Hi Vern,

YES, chiropractors need to be in hospitals!

A prime example is the policeman who, about 10 days ago was struck by an auto carreening off the freeway at what appeared to be the T9,10 level....put into hyperextenstion and tossed x number of feet. The report was that "he was taken to the hospital, found to have small cuts and bruises and released". You and I both know he was not examined structurally (from our understanding ) and will have problems from some time to come.....went completely undiagnosed.

I reecently started treatment on a woman who had deheised an abdominal wound 6 years before, desppite the best medical care had to offer. well as immune depressed. 3 weeks into a treatemtn plan foi adequate nutriton, appropirate adjusting and microcurrent, the wound showed over 25% improvement. Had we been in the hospital, this would have been picked up MUCH sooner.

What happened tothe statistics that came out out of the BC/BS hospital study in Illinois? I never saw an ending accounting of the ending result after the enormous downtrend in morbitity statistics that came out of the first and second years of it.

What we do will improve the rate of healing for soo many people during their metabolic or traumatic crisis. So YES ... I would support that move.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC

Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon

@ Turtle Island Health Center

56 Oakway Center

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541-683-5600

From: "Vern Saboe DC" <vas@...><aca-members@...>, <Oregondcs >,<CFSgroup >Subject: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:01:07 -0700Hi Dear Colleagues:Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....Thanks for your time and consideration,Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACOExecutive Board MemberLobbyistChiropractic Association of OregonAlbany, Oregon Get the NEW version of MSN Messenger with Video Conversation - it's FREE!

June 9, 2005

Vern and collegues:

(sorry Vern, my answer is not so brief...):

My father died March 23rd in RVMC Hospital here in Medford. He was a

very healthy and active 82 y.o. who was walking 18 holes of golf, three

times a week, just three months before he died. I believe he had a

dormant autoimmune disorder (on the order of polyarteritis nodosa - my

DDX -- the pathologist came up with antiphospholipid syndrome, but has

yet to explain my father's thrombocytosis - it is supposed to be

thrombocytopenia... Anyway, I am waiting for a copy of his file for

further study, but I digress...) I say "dormant" because it appeared to

be triggered by a flu shot. He received the flu shot Dec 3rd and was

knocked on his butt -- weakness, anemia, dysphagia, mild to moderate

dimentia and an unsteady gait developed.

I was impressed by the 20-some-odd physicians who attempted to figure

out his condition. Besides anemia and lab results showing poor

nutritional status, all of his other tests kept coming came back

normal, until his kidneys began to fail - his failing health was a

major mystery. It appeared to me that the M.D.'s were doing all they

could to show off their skills to the "chiropractor." The doctors were

very respectful to me and appeared quite impressed by my input -

although, sometimes I wish I didn't know what I know. . . "if ignorance

is bliss... tis folly to be wise"... I "nay say'd" their attempts to

search for "zebras," and I was correct every time.... they thought

stroke, I said no - no Hx of cardiovascular illness and he has always

been normotensive - MRI was unremarkable, ... they thought

encephalitis, I said no - he was never in any pain, no headache, etc,

subsequent lumbar puncture was negative, ... they thought colon

pathology, I said no - no gastroenterological complaints (although he

must have had occult blood loss sometime during his period of decline)

- upper and lower GI came back clear... This dance went on and on

throught batteries of tests, until his vitals turned south and he died

three days after the M.D.'s gave up. No answers were ever found during

his 17-days in the hospital. I thanked him for totally frustrating the

M.D.'s and making them look silly (I should note that he was "locked

in" and only a little responsive to direction from his 4th day

forward.) I ordered an autopsy limited to tissue sample of his kidney,

which provided the pathologist with what he needed to return the

antiphospholipid syndrome determination. This condition is said to be

associated with SLE type disorders, which my father did not have, but

in any case, it is also reported in the literature to be initiated by

chemical insult... So, for those flu shot supporters out there, go suck

an egg, and hope it doesn't have any salmonella!

This was my first first-hand experience in the hospital setting. In

spite of my father's outcome, it was a positive experience on many

levels, both personal and professional. I was very pleased to learn

that no less than five nurses who looked after my father in the

oncology ward were patients of mine. They were all wonderful. I believe

they were impressed with my knowledge base, and they knew I was a force

to be reckoned with when it came to directing my father's care. I was

very pleased with the coordination and seemless nature of shared

information between the physicians, including incorporating my input.

While it is not a place I wish to visit anytime soon, I believe only

positive things could come out of our inclusion in this setting.

Glenn

Glenn F. Gumaer, B.S., D.C.

Northside Chiropractic Clinic

1240 N. Riverside Avenue

Medford, OR 97501

541-770-1330

gfgdc@...

Vern Saboe DC wrote:

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering

legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as

per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and

a very brief answer is fine.

The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is

coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already

in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what

the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the

PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time

the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as

a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals

provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the

superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them

to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the

somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the

hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay

public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also

educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very

good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing

a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers'

comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and

consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC.,

DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, Oregon

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have

been removed.

June 9, 2005

How in the world are they going to let us in hospitals when they don't believe that our philosophy is scientifically valid and when osteopaths and PT's combined can (in their minds) perform exactly the same things we do without the philosophy behind it.. Hey, if we were the only physicians out there providing adjustments (manipulations) I couldn't see a reason to keep us out. Other than that, they surely aren't letting us in with any sort of chiropractic philosophy (wellness) in mind. Theres just a whole lot of grey not just a touch.

For us to be hanging around with them in a hospital setting a couple of things would have to happen

1. Chiropractors wouldn't be able to perform PT in the hospital

2. DO's wouldn't be able to manipulate

3. Chiropractors would be technicians as opposed to Physicians. DO's would perscribe manipulation of a certain vertebrae and send the patient down to the chiro area of the hospital (the basement no doubt) there would be NO diagnosing etc.

Otherwise, how would this work, really? Would they give us ALL Back Problems and call us Spinal Specialists???? If so, then numbers 1,2 and 3 listed above wouldn't have to happen at all. We could manipulate, diagnose and perform PT on the back and body as it relates to the spine, neck and back. Wouldn't be too bad, especially if there was a nice salary involved. And, if one wanted to express the great power of chiropractic they could sign people up for outpatient (wellness care ) in the DC's private office. I'm all for working together with other health professionals for the greater good of the community and it's health. I understand that Medical doctor's are an absolute necessity in the world, but don't think for a minute that they believe that we are.

Dr. ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St. #6Portland, OR 97211Ph: 503-788-6800c: 503-889-6204

RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"

Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else’s candle doesn’t make yours any brighter!

However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges.

Larry Oliver, DC

The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution

Vern,

One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect.

I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea.

What can I do to help?

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes:

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, Oregon

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

June 9, 2005

Well said......the reality is those colleagues who are dogmatically and caustically opposed to "all" of medicine "all" medical doctors etc. Will not be those that will seek privileges anyway.

It is of some interest that two of the family docs I treat are studying hard at botanical alternatives to the standard pharmacology.....what better venue to reveal the evidence that supports the concepts of vitalism (without overstating the case) life force, wellness care, somato-visceral & visceral-somatic reflex arcs....one as a treatment modality the other as an aid to differential diagnosis.....etc., etc. they know little of the musculoskeletal realm.

last time I spoke at the hospital to the staff physicians (about 30 showed up) they all started writing down the stuff on visceral referred pain patterns from diseased organs and started looking for the schematic in their notes.....and the few that had the balls/1 set of ovaries to ask questions, well the level of their questions relative to musculoskeletal injury were so rudimentary I had to force myself to not smile!

Vern Saboe

Re: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"

Vern,

One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect.

I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea.

What can I do to help?

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes:

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, OregonOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

June 9, 2005

Sorry to hear of your fathers death....that was an excellent post...and while am at it Glenn thanks for helping to make the entire profession look good while at the hospital!

Thanks again for this post,

Vern

Re: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"

Vern and collegues:(sorry Vern, my answer is not so brief...):My father died March 23rd in RVMC Hospital here in Medford. He was a very healthy and active 82 y.o. who was walking 18 holes of golf, three times a week, just three months before he died. I believe he had a dormant autoimmune disorder (on the order of polyarteritis nodosa - my DDX -- the pathologist came up with antiphospholipid syndrome, but has yet to explain my father's thrombocytosis - it is supposed to be thrombocytopenia... Anyway, I am waiting for a copy of his file for further study, but I digress...) I say "dormant" because it appeared to be triggered by a flu shot. He received the flu shot Dec 3rd and was knocked on his butt -- weakness, anemia, dysphagia, mild to moderate dimentia and an unsteady gait developed. I was impressed by the 20-some-odd physicians who attempted to figure out his condition. Besides anemia and lab results showing poor nutritional status, all of his other tests kept coming came back normal, until his kidneys began to fail - his failing health was a major mystery. It appeared to me that the M.D.'s were doing all they could to show off their skills to the "chiropractor." The doctors were very respectful to me and appeared quite impressed by my input - although, sometimes I wish I didn't know what I know. . . "if ignorance is bliss... tis folly to be wise"... I "nay say'd" their attempts to search for "zebras," and I was correct every time.... they thought stroke, I said no - no Hx of cardiovascular illness and he has always been normotensive - MRI was unremarkable, ... they thought encephalitis, I said no - he was never in any pain, no headache, etc, subsequent lumbar puncture was negative, ... they thought colon pathology, I said no - no gastroenterological complaints (although he must have had occult blood loss sometime during his period of decline) - upper and lower GI came back clear... This dance went on and on throught batteries of tests, until his vitals turned south and he died three days after the M.D.'s gave up. No answers were ever found during his 17-days in the hospital. I thanked him for totally frustrating the M.D.'s and making them look silly (I should note that he was "locked in" and only a little responsive to direction from his 4th day forward.) I ordered an autopsy limited to tissue sample of his kidney, which provided the pathologist with what he needed to return the antiphospholipid syndrome determination. This condition is said to be associated with SLE type disorders, which my father did not have, but in any case, it is also reported in the literature to be initiated by chemical insult... So, for those flu shot supporters out there, go suck an egg, and hope it doesn't have any salmonella!This was my first first-hand experience in the hospital setting. In spite of my father's outcome, it was a positive experience on many levels, both personal and professional. I was very pleased to learn that no less than five nurses who looked after my father in the oncology ward were patients of mine. They were all wonderful. I believe they were impressed with my knowledge base, and they knew I was a force to be reckoned with when it came to directing my father's care. I was very pleased with the coordination and seemless nature of shared information between the physicians, including incorporating my input. While it is not a place I wish to visit anytime soon, I believe only positive things could come out of our inclusion in this setting.Glenn

Glenn F. Gumaer, B.S., D.C.

Northside Chiropractic Clinic

1240 N. Riverside Avenue

Medford, OR 97501

541-770-1330

gfgdc@...Vern Saboe DC wrote:

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, OregonOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

June 9, 2005

Hi Joe,

No, the wellness portion would not be appropriate for the time in the hospital.

The way it is managed is that, as 'on staff', you could be brought in as a consultant. You do your normal work-up, diagnosing and ordering of a treatment plan. You do the adjusting. Others do the PT or the providing of the nutritionals or whatever. The patient improves, the patiient goes home with discharge instructions from you that includes a follow-up visit to you in x amount of time.

THAT"S when you put your normal program into place. It could work quite well.

Hospital visits are only lasting 1 - 3 days right now. 1 week is long and beyond that can occur but the staff works diligently to avoid it. The big advantage of meeting a patient in the Emergency Room is the effect adjusting has in the immediate time. And, not only do you aid an acute injury and get it on it's way to calm, a number of others will see/hear of the event and the progress obtained. It would aid the new patient stream immensely. I see it as a positive move.

SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC

Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon

@ Turtle Island Health Center

56 Oakway Center

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541-683-5600

From: "deadmed" <deadmed@...>"Chiro ListServe" < >,"Larry Oliver, DC" <lloliverdc@...>Subject: Re: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:54:27 -0700How in the world are they going to let us in hospitals when they don't believe that our philosophy is scientifically valid and when osteopaths and PT's combined can (in their minds) perform exactly the same things we do without the philosophy behind it.. Hey, if we were the only physicians out there providing adjustments (manipulations) I couldn't see a reason to keep us out. Other than that, they surely aren't letting us in with any sort of chiropractic philosophy (wellness) in mind. Theres just a whole lot of grey not just a touch.For us to be hanging around with them in a hospital setting a couple of things would have to happen1. Chiropractors wouldn't be able to perform PT in the hospital2. DO's wouldn't be able to manipulate3. Chiropractors would be technicians as opposed to Physicians. DO's would perscribe manipulation of a certain vertebrae and send the patient down to the chiro area of the hospital (the basement no doubt) there would be NO diagnosing etc.Otherwise, how would this work, really? Would they give us ALL Back Problems and call us Spinal Specialists???? If so, then numbers 1,2 and 3 listed above wouldn't have to happen at all. We could manipulate, diagnose and perform PT on the back and body as it relates to the spine, neck and back. Wouldn't be too bad, especially if there was a nice salary involved. And, if one wanted to express the great power of chiropractic they could sign people up for outpatient (wellness care ) in the DC's private office. I'm all for working together with other health professionals for the greater good of the community and it's health. I understand that Medical doctor's are an absolute necessity in the world, but don't think for a minute that they believe that we are.Dr. ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St. #6Portland, OR 97211Ph: 503-788-6800c: 503-889-6204 RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?" Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours any brighter! However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges. Larry Oliver, DC The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution Vern, One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect. I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea. What can I do to help? Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes: Hi Dear Colleagues: Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff. I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine. The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them. On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs. Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc. ...and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting. Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos..... Thanks for your time and consideration, Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO Executive Board Member Lobbyist Chiropractic Association of Oregon Albany, Oregon OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 9, 2005

OK Sounds good but,

why would they allow us in there to do the adjusting when they already have DO's on staff who manipulate? If they were interested in this kind of thing and the benefits to the patient, why not implement it with the physicians they already have on staff.

I agree that it would be an intriguing opportunity, however i just can't seem to rid myself of skepticism.

Dr. ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St. #6Portland, OR 97211Ph: 503-788-6800c: 503-889-6204

RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?" Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours any brighter! However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges. Larry Oliver, DC The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution Vern, One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect. I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea. What can I do to help? Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes: Hi Dear Colleagues: Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff. I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine. The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them. On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs. Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc. ...and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting. Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos..... Thanks for your time and consideration, Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO Executive Board Member Lobbyist Chiropractic Association of Oregon Albany, Oregon OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 9, 2005

In a message dated 6/9/2005 9:09:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time, AboWoman@... writes:

However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution.

Amen. Some professionalism and seeing that tomorrow is a bright new day. I am amazed - in every medical rotation I have done I have been asked to adjust patients and usually treat the doctors themselves : pediatrics - asked to adjust some babies for ear infections, surgery, obstetrics - was adjusting women every day, internal medicine - any back complaint they just turned me loose to do whatever, etc. While medicine may not be open to us a great many medical doctors are.

Anglen

June 9, 2005

The reason to your question is that many DO don't adjust. As an example, I will share a story with you from my college days. My study partner's brother-in-law was in osteopathic college just as we were going through chiropractic college. When my study partner asked him something about adjusting, his comment was "I'm not gonna do that. It's too hard to learn. I'll leave that to you guys." DOs gained the right to use 'MD" in l965; I've worked with a lot of DOs through the years and have never, NEVER, seen anyone be adjusted in a hospital. They just don't seem to do it....certainly not to the degree it seems they would.

SunnySunny Kierstyn, RN DC

Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon

@ Turtle Island Health Center

56 Oakway Center

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541-683-5600

From: "deadmed" <deadmed@...>< >,<lloliverdc@...>,"sunny Kierstyn" <skrndc1@...>Subject: Re: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:45:41 -0700OK Sounds good but,why would they allow us in there to do the adjusting when they already have DO's on staff who manipulate? If they were interested in this kind of thing and the benefits to the patient, why not implement it with the physicians they already have on staff.I agree that it would be an intriguing opportunity, however i just can't seem to rid myself of skepticism.Dr. ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St. #6Portland, OR 97211Ph: 503-788-6800c: 503-889-6204 RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?" Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours any brighter! However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges. Larry Oliver, DC The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution Vern, One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect. I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea. What can I do to help? Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes: Hi Dear Colleagues: Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff. I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine. The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them. On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs. Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc. ...and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting. Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos..... Thanks for your time and consideration, Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO Executive Board Member Lobbyist Chiropractic Association of Oregon Albany, Oregon OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 10, 2005

Someone mentioned doing

rounds at hospitals and I think that would be a great opportunity to develop relationships

and be invited to be on the staff rather than forcing the issue with a law.

Larry Oliver

The information contained in this

electronic message may contain protected health information which is

confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the

individual or entity named above.

If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are

hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this

communication is strictly prohibited.

If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco

Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the

communication immediately without making any copy or distribution

-----Original

Message-----

From: Vern Saboe DC

[mailto:vas@...]

Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 2:35

PM

Larry Oliver, DC

Subject: Re:

" Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians? "

Thanks

for the post Larry....thanks for taking the time.

Vern

-----

Original Message -----

From: Larry

Oliver, DC

Chiro

ListServe

Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005

11:05 AM

Subject: RE:

" Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic

Physicians? "

Very well

stated Minga. As a profession we

do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the

material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and

drug companies. You are right, it

is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else’s candle

doesn’t make yours any brighter!

However,

forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the

medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and

experienced? That chiropractic is

safe and effective? That we are

professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used

publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might

gain with staff privileges.

Larry Oliver,

DC

The information contained in this

electronic message may contain protected health information which is

confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the

individual or entity named above.

If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are

hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this

communication is strictly prohibited.

If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco

Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the

communication immediately without making any copy or distribution

Vern,

One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our

own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs

denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen.

However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder.

I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured

over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be

a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional

communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived

persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to

educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to

recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent

discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we

should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening

to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to

respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to

graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my

business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely

consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a

simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of

interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for

advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like

this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well

directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I

saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were

actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other

DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual

respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have

the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to

acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to

begin/continue to converse with mutual respect.

I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more

places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need

to embrace this idea.

What can I do to help?

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,

vas@... writes:

Hi Dear

Colleagues:

Here in

Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have

chiropractors on staff.

I would

like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know

how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The

" Doctor of Physical Therapy " is coming, they are attempting to gain

direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence

the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists

of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the

other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training

consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would

are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our

medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training,

educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of

the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and

would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the

uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also

educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly

we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals

and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg.,

workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks

for your time and consideration,

Vern

Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive

Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic

Association of Oregon

Albany,

Oregon

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members

will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,

it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise

distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent,

unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members

will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,

it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise

distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent,

unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

June 10, 2005

In teaching hospitals, rounds occur routinely for the interns and residents so you need to be in one of those programs in order to participate. In other hospitals, several doctors involved with any given patient may gather to confer but only if you are involved with patient care are those events to which you might be invited. Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC

Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon

@ Turtle Island Health Center

56 Oakway Center

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541-683-5600

From: "Larry Oliver, DC" <lloliverdc@...>"Vern Saboe DC" <vas@...>CC: "Chiro ListServe" < >Subject: RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:31:06 -0700Someone mentioned doing rounds at hospitals and I think that would be agreat opportunity to develop relationships and be invited to be on the staffrather than forcing the issue with a law.Larry OliverThe information contained in this electronic message may contain protectedhealth information which is confidential under applicable law and isintended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If therecipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are herebynotified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communicationis strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error,please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis,OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately withoutmaking any copy or distribution Re: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for ChiropracticPhysicians?"Thanks for the post Larry....thanks for taking the time.Vern RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for ChiropracticPhysicians?"Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share ofcomplaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on thislistsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies.You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generallynegative. Putting out someone else’s candle doesn’t make yours anybrighter!However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How canwe as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients wouldbenefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? Thatchiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part ofmainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative pressmight be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Ourprofession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staffprivileges.Larry Oliver, DCThe information contained in this electronic message may contain protectedhealth information which is confidential under applicable law and isintended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If therecipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are herebynotified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communicationis strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error,please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis,OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately withoutmaking any copy or distributionVern,One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our ownprofession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTsdenegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen.However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on theshoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn'tbeen nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the timesthey need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort ofinterprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk responseof perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simplyas a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we cansucceed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case inpoint, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with atreatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them.BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to changetreatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree.Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years ofmy business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarelyconsider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that asimple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount ofinterdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who askedfor advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been aforum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he madewere well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open tolistening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They beganreferring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establishreferral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious tore-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I stillfirmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals isfor as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutualrespect.I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places thanPhysician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embracethis idea.What can I do to help?Minga Guerrero DCIn a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@...writes:Hi Dear Colleagues:Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitalshave chiropractors on staff.I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why.I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gaindirect access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence themedical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consistsof, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what ourtraining consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us asthe PTs.Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educateour medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to ourtraining, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidencealbeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyesof the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff memberscould also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in thehospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ERrooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....Thanks for your time and consideration,Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACOExecutive Board MemberLobbyistChiropractic Association of OregonAlbany, OregonOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is tofoster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listservemembers will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, orotherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his orher consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is tofoster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listservemembers will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, orotherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his orher consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. _____

June 10, 2005

We should be allowed the opportunity to apply for hospital privileges, but with privilege comes additional responsibilities, and candidates should be prepared for additional certification requirements and training. Getting in the door would be great, but each individual needs to be prepared once inside. I'm not sure that "mandating" is the answer, but on the other hand, I don't see the hospitals or the medical community for that matter throwing open their arms to embrace us. Sometimes you need to force the issue, but be willing to compromise and negotiate once you get to the table. Working to develop one-on-one MD/DC relationships is great, and what I have tried to do, but MD's are not necessarily the hospital administrators and bean counters.

Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak St

Hillsboro, OR 97123

(503)640-3724

"Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, OregonOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

June 10, 2005

Although I agree that most DO's don't want to take the time to adjust, Wouldn't the hospitals rather find one that does than be forced by law to place chiros in there. It could have a cost effective element for them though. They could drop manipulation from the DO curriculum opening up what...3hrs or so of class time lol and allowing for more DO stuff. I can see them using us especially for cases that they have tried everything with or just want to get the patient out of there. If the adjustment works, whew great! ya know

Doing rounds and adjusting people to help assist with the healing process of all kinds of patients in the hospital would be quite fun i'd have to say. Also, it would help bring us together in a professional enviornment hence breaking down the barriers of ignorance and fear. It has the makings of changing the face of chiropractic a bit.

Dr. ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1627 NE Alberta St. #6Portland, OR 97211Ph: 503-788-6800c: 503-889-6204

RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?" Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours any brighter! However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges. Larry Oliver, DC The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution Vern, One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect. I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea. What can I do to help? Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes: Hi Dear Colleagues: Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff. I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine. The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them. On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs. Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc. ...and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting. Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos..... Thanks for your time and consideration, Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO Executive Board Member Lobbyist Chiropractic Association of Oregon Albany, Oregon OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 10, 2005

Vern: I get more and more referrals from the ER. If we could be there some of the time, medical practice would change. The attitudes towards us and towards medicine by us would change. More comradery would develop and less hostility and competition would result. I can't think of how it would be bad. We can't be on call, but can be called and when available show up. They just come to my office now, anyway. I think rural areas might be a great place to try this- fewer providers, more need? My office is less than 5 minutes from the hospital. I already have good relationships with a number of doctors in the community. We share patients. I think a lot of the resistance that stopped us 20 years ago from gaining priveleges is gone. Ann Goldeen

"Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, OregonOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

June 10, 2005

In Astoria we have to DO's. One is a complete bufoon. The other is a young, bright guy who does some manipulation in the ofice. I think he does a passable job. I doubt he does it in the office. By the way, I got another call for your name from someone who heard our radio program about fibromyalgia. They are universally unhappy that you aren't closer. Oh, well. Maybe some traveling will bring them to Eugene.

Ann Goldeen

RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?" Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours any brighter! However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges. Larry Oliver, DC The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution Vern, One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect. I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea. What can I do to help? Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes: Hi Dear Colleagues: Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff. I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine. The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them. On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs. Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc. ...and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting. Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos..... Thanks for your time and consideration, Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO Executive Board Member Lobbyist Chiropractic Association of Oregon Albany, Oregon OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 10, 2005

Baloney...sorry Sharron but is just that. Bless Bryce's little heart for investing in the old Woodland Park Hospital but you were speaking with a skewed audience in my opinion.

The medical executive committees will continue to protect their perceived turf. Yes though I treat many local MDs the majority I don't nor do any of the other DCs in town and as such the great majority of Medics still don't really know our training and expertise and what we have to offer patients etc., etc. and as such keep us locked out.

In my opinion it's way past time to force the issue - push the envelope.

Vern Saboe

RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"

Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours any brighter!

However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges.

Larry Oliver, DC

The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution

Vern,

One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect.

I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea.

What can I do to help?

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes:

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, Oregon

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

June 13, 2005

Ok, but I'm arm deep in Salem......I'm duplicating what had been done in Wyoming years ago...but interestingly they did nothing with it....but then again just how many DCs and hospital are really in Wyoming anyway!

Vern

RE: "Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?"

Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours any brighter!

However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges.

Larry Oliver, DC

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Vern,

One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect.

I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea.

What can I do to help?

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes:

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The "Doctor of Physical Therapy" is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, Oregon

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OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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RE: Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians?

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