Re: IQ .. one more thought

January 9, 2005

In a message dated 1/9/2005 11:56:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

>

> As I listen to this thread, I seem to be hearing that " my child might

> fail that test " or that the test might not measure my chilld well.

> While IQ is not a particularly good test for our kids, it seldom gives

> them a much higher mark .. it is just that they might test lower than

> their ability. Since a high score removes them from eligibility, who

> cares?

>

--

I care, because I've had 2 different school districts use the test results

(which were misleading) as a basis for proving that inclusion was an

inappropriate setting for my child. They also refused to use tests which

accomodate

children with speech and physical impediments (which do exist BTW, but not many

school psychs are trained in using them. I understand there is a growing concern

of getting qualified assessments for kids with speech/language issues because

of the ESOL population).

The results were misleading because:

1) has speech apraxia which interferes with her ability to respond to

the tests (SB, WISC) according to the narrow parameters the assessments define

as " acceptable " . The results indicate that she knows a lot less than she does

and as the result the school expects a lot less out of her than she is

capable of.

2) learns in an atypical sequence. Most IQ tests failed to recognize

this.

3) IQ test fail to identify her learning style (this kind of thing shows up

in learning inventories and Functional Behavior Assessments.) We had a

wonderful FBA when she was 10 that yeilded results an IQ test never will. The

Behavioral Specialist who was hired to assess and implement the plan was

fantastic. In

one session with the Reading Specialist she was able to get to go from

20% " compliant " to 100% " compliant " by having the Reading Specialist present

material and instructions in the format that worked best for .

- Becky

January 9, 2005

In a message dated 1/9/2005 11:56:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

>

> As I listen to this thread, I seem to be hearing that " my child might

> fail that test " or that the test might not measure my chilld well.

> While IQ is not a particularly good test for our kids, it seldom gives

> them a much higher mark .. it is just that they might test lower than

> their ability. Since a high score removes them from eligibility, who

> cares?

>

--

I care, because I've had 2 different school districts use the test results

(which were misleading) as a basis for proving that inclusion was an

inappropriate setting for my child. They also refused to use tests which

accomodate

children with speech and physical impediments (which do exist BTW, but not many

school psychs are trained in using them. I understand there is a growing concern

of getting qualified assessments for kids with speech/language issues because

of the ESOL population).

The results were misleading because:

1) has speech apraxia which interferes with her ability to respond to

the tests (SB, WISC) according to the narrow parameters the assessments define

as " acceptable " . The results indicate that she knows a lot less than she does

and as the result the school expects a lot less out of her than she is

capable of.

2) learns in an atypical sequence. Most IQ tests failed to recognize

this.

3) IQ test fail to identify her learning style (this kind of thing shows up

in learning inventories and Functional Behavior Assessments.) We had a

wonderful FBA when she was 10 that yeilded results an IQ test never will. The

Behavioral Specialist who was hired to assess and implement the plan was

fantastic. In

one session with the Reading Specialist she was able to get to go from

20% " compliant " to 100% " compliant " by having the Reading Specialist present

material and instructions in the format that worked best for .

- Becky

January 9, 2005

In a message dated 1/9/05 10:56:49 PM Central Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

> . Although it isn't

> vogue on this list at the moment, we've had parents on-line telling us

> that their six year old tested above normal and would someday have a

> PhD. OK .. if you fast forward a few year, those children were no

> different than ours, but the myth of the brilliant person with DS still

> persists.

>

I think this comes from the " testers " who expect the DS child to be

practically a vegetable so when they do well it amazes them. A mother I worked

with insisted that the director of sped attend the testing of her child,

behind a " window " . He thought the boy was exceptional. I know the child was

average DS. We hoped it would make the guy take a second look at other kids

with

DS, but it didn't, he assumed it was just this one.

was tested for elegibility for Soc. Sec. As far as I could

tell there was no standard test. The guy never found out R. could read. R.

counted to 10 and quit so the guy didn't ask for more. I had told R. it wasn't

too important so he didn't have to knock himself out. I'm always torn between

wanting him to get the service and blowing the guy's mind.

Jessie

January 9, 2005

In a message dated 1/9/05 10:56:49 PM Central Standard Time,

rdill@... writes:

> . Although it isn't

> vogue on this list at the moment, we've had parents on-line telling us

> that their six year old tested above normal and would someday have a

> PhD. OK .. if you fast forward a few year, those children were no

> different than ours, but the myth of the brilliant person with DS still

> persists.

>

I think this comes from the " testers " who expect the DS child to be

practically a vegetable so when they do well it amazes them. A mother I worked

with insisted that the director of sped attend the testing of her child,

behind a " window " . He thought the boy was exceptional. I know the child was

average DS. We hoped it would make the guy take a second look at other kids

with

DS, but it didn't, he assumed it was just this one.

was tested for elegibility for Soc. Sec. As far as I could

tell there was no standard test. The guy never found out R. could read. R.

counted to 10 and quit so the guy didn't ask for more. I had told R. it wasn't

too important so he didn't have to knock himself out. I'm always torn between

wanting him to get the service and blowing the guy's mind.

Jessie

January 10, 2005

On the topic of IQ tests being inappropriate, let me share this gem from

Stefanie's first IQ test at age 2.

The strange man testing her later admitted to me he had never testing a child

as young as she was then. We tested in a SUPPLY closet next to the

cafeteria, which was in full swing for the entire time we were testing. When

Stefanie

sat in the chair before the desk, her eyes were at the table level. I had to

pull reams of paper down for her to sit on, the examiner was not going to do

anything to make it more accessible for her.

One of my favorite tests he did was to open his briefcase and take out a

naked doll. (That alone was weird!) He then held the doll in front of Stefanie,

at eye level, and pulled off the head. The first thing my daughter did was

back as far away from him as she could, just about climbed out of the chair. He

laid the doll body and the head on the desk and then waited until the required

time had passed.

What was the purpose of this test? To see if she recognized a broken toy and

attempted to " fix " it. I suggested next time he bring a toy car or truck and

pull off a wheel. I am now told they no longer use the " headless doll " as

part of testing.

Cheryl

January 10, 2005

On the topic of IQ tests being inappropriate, let me share this gem from

Stefanie's first IQ test at age 2.

The strange man testing her later admitted to me he had never testing a child

as young as she was then. We tested in a SUPPLY closet next to the

cafeteria, which was in full swing for the entire time we were testing. When

Stefanie

sat in the chair before the desk, her eyes were at the table level. I had to

pull reams of paper down for her to sit on, the examiner was not going to do

anything to make it more accessible for her.

One of my favorite tests he did was to open his briefcase and take out a

naked doll. (That alone was weird!) He then held the doll in front of Stefanie,

at eye level, and pulled off the head. The first thing my daughter did was

back as far away from him as she could, just about climbed out of the chair. He

laid the doll body and the head on the desk and then waited until the required

time had passed.

What was the purpose of this test? To see if she recognized a broken toy and

attempted to " fix " it. I suggested next time he bring a toy car or truck and

pull off a wheel. I am now told they no longer use the " headless doll " as

part of testing.

Cheryl

January 10, 2005

In a message dated 1/10/2005 1:02:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,

JB66111@... writes:

I think this comes from the " testers " who expect the DS child to be

practically a vegetable so when they do well it amazes them.

Yes, , this is what I see. I have not heard of parents claiming their

child is PhD material but I know that my daughter elicts quite a bit of awe

from people who know few others with DS. When I tell them lots of young adults

with DS function at her level they look at me with disbelief. It's all a

matter of exposure and knowledge.

Cheryl in VA

January 10, 2005

In a message dated 1/10/2005 1:02:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,

JB66111@... writes:

I think this comes from the " testers " who expect the DS child to be

practically a vegetable so when they do well it amazes them.

Yes, , this is what I see. I have not heard of parents claiming their

child is PhD material but I know that my daughter elicts quite a bit of awe

from people who know few others with DS. When I tell them lots of young adults

with DS function at her level they look at me with disbelief. It's all a

matter of exposure and knowledge.

Cheryl in VA

January 10, 2005

Marcia,

Where in Colorado are you? We are in Colorado Springs D-11 and and

Noah (both with Down syndrome) have never had an IQ test. They both attend the

neighborhood school.

January 10, 2005

Marcia,

Where in Colorado are you? We are in Colorado Springs D-11 and and

Noah (both with Down syndrome) have never had an IQ test. They both attend the

neighborhood school.

January 10, 2005

From our meeting last Friday to discuss my neices upcoming assessment

They NEVER called it IQ testing............they never even said that

word..........or phrase................

They just said an upcoming assessment tests and then in the ARD meeting they

just mentioned the names of the tests and cognitive testing but, they never

call it IQ testing................

So, at the end of the meeting we asked are some of these test to do an IQ

test and they said " YES " .............

" We had to ask " they of course would not tell us................we told them

NO that we did not want any cognitive IQ testing and we didn't want a number

associated with her name in her record..........

They got a little snippy and asked " why not " and we told them that we didn't

want future teachers etc............to have a preconcieved notion of

her.................and we didn't want it used against her inclusion in some

way...........they tried to say it would not etc..............but, YES IT

CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, they agreeded to take out all cognitive testing and not to put any

number next to her name etc. or in her school record..............

So basically YOU have to ask are any of these test IQ tests and will a number

be reported next to your childs name..................

We told them NO and we got our way................

Stefanie (aunt -godmother to age 8 ds)

Austin, TX

January 10, 2005

From our meeting last Friday to discuss my neices upcoming assessment

They NEVER called it IQ testing............they never even said that

word..........or phrase................

They just said an upcoming assessment tests and then in the ARD meeting they

just mentioned the names of the tests and cognitive testing but, they never

call it IQ testing................

So, at the end of the meeting we asked are some of these test to do an IQ

test and they said " YES " .............

" We had to ask " they of course would not tell us................we told them

NO that we did not want any cognitive IQ testing and we didn't want a number

associated with her name in her record..........

They got a little snippy and asked " why not " and we told them that we didn't

want future teachers etc............to have a preconcieved notion of

her.................and we didn't want it used against her inclusion in some

way...........they tried to say it would not etc..............but, YES IT

CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, they agreeded to take out all cognitive testing and not to put any

number next to her name etc. or in her school record..............

So basically YOU have to ask are any of these test IQ tests and will a number

be reported next to your childs name..................

We told them NO and we got our way................

Stefanie (aunt -godmother to age 8 ds)

Austin, TX

January 10, 2005

OK...now I need to add my 2 cents...I am not a fan of the IQ testing for

our kids especially when they are young and still developing every day

skills...my son's school did his Triennial last spring and we had to get

another IQ testing block done over the summer because his current school

wanted to use his IQ level as a way to determine that he did not belong in

the school...we have him in a Charter school which is full inclusion...he's

only 6 yo so he should be given a chance...unfortunately it seems the school

districts are taking the easy way out and putting our kids in programs

because it's easier for them - no hassles or accomodations - just us as

parents having to work with what the district wants to " allow " us...now my

concern is the changes in the IDEA act that was signed in December... they

are taking the " short term goals " away and want " long term goals " - that

will not allow us to follow how our children are learning, if they are even

in a school that actually teaches them...then there is the behavior change

where the school can say that a child's behavior is related to their

disability and therefore they need to go to another school that has a

" center " program that can work with the behavior...

Sorry - I'll get off my soap box now...we're just trying to get the school

distict here in Colorado to understand that just because a child has a

" LABEL " ( I hate that word) they are able to learn and deserve the

right/chance to go to school like anyone else without being singled out...

Marcia

mom to 6 yo

IQ .. one more thought

As I listen to this thread, I seem to be hearing that " my child might

fail that test " or that the test might not measure my chilld well.

While IQ is not a particularly good test for our kids, it seldom gives

them a much higher mark .. it is just that they might test lower than

their ability. Since a high score removes them from eligibility, who

cares?

Over the years, I've met maybe two young adults with down syndrome who

might test high enough on IQ to disqualify themselves, but neither has

been disqualified.

The bureaucrat who decides on eligibility is always worried about giving

same to that elusive person with down syndrome who went to college, got

married, and had three kids who were all normal. Although it isn't

vogue on this list at the moment, we've had parents on-line telling us

that their six year old tested above normal and would someday have a

PhD. OK .. if you fast forward a few year, those children were no

different than ours, but the myth of the brilliant person with DS still

persists.

On the other hand, the usual IQ test is very poor at delineating what a

child needs to be taught, which is why we need lots of other testing and

evaluation. If IQ alone is used, its flaws might be used against our

children by perhaps indicating that they aren't worthy of being taught.

Rick

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January 10, 2005