Re: Resveratrol in wine and other foods

[Guest guest]

>>though there does exist the

> French paradox.

Could you explain this " paradox " ?

[Guest guest]

One has to make all their own decisions based on their best bets (as with everything else we now know about ON). A glass or two a day of red wine is implicated in longer life. But we're all individuals As with all things, this is subject to change based on what we find out in the future.

I personally do drink one or two glasses of red wine daily. Mostly because I enjoy it and can stop at will. If I didn't like wine, I'd probably place my bets elsewhere.

on 10/30/2006 2:58 PM, orb85750 at sudarsky@... wrote:

I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing the 'net

concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is anyone

here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in general

(and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot noir a

so much richer source that one should not worry about other food/wine

sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass (1

glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack of

testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French paradox. I

do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

consuming some red wine.

[Guest guest]

Well, you see, there were these 2 French doctors in an elevator and....

No, sorry, bad joke.

The " French paradox " as it is called is the apparent fact that despite

living and eating a fairly hedonistic lifestyle (smoking, pate, etc), the

French have traditionally had much lower incidences of heart disease as

compared to other westerners, eg, esp the US. Part of this has been

" explained " by their relatively high red wine consumption (compared to our

low wine consumption).

Of course, some of this difference is apparently starting to disappear as

the French are eating more like us, becoming more overweight (and drinking

less wine than they used to).

> >>though there does exist the

> > French paradox.

>

> Could you explain this " paradox " ?

>

>

>

Jewell, Ph.D.

Campus Mass Spectrometry Facilities

UC

cmsf.ucdavis.edu

[Guest guest]

Hi Orb:

Some serious studies show a huge reduction in mortality for those who

drink wine, in a dose response manner up to rather large quantities of

wine (much larger quantities than I would be prepared to consume) and

for all causes of death - not just CVD. (Danish Epidemiology Science

Centre did the study I have in mind, searching for that in the

archives here would find the reference for sure.)

Similar results in the same study were not found for beer or liquor,

so presumably it is not the alcohol.

I am not aware of any empirical studies yet done that compared red

with white wine. Or with de-alcoholized wines, grape juice or other

juices.

I started drinking wine about twenty years ago in response to these

studies, but I do not confine my consumption to red.

There is also the question as to whether the health issues tackled by

drinking wine may be similar to those fixed by CRON. In which case

there may be less benefit in wine for us than for the general,

unhealthy, population. My bet is that the alcohol itself is likely a

net negative factor.

Rodney.

>

> I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing the 'net

> concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is anyone

> here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in general

> (and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot noir a

> so much richer source that one should not worry about other food/wine

> sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass (1

> glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack of

> testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French paradox. I

> do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

> consuming some red wine.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

And in addition US deaths from CVD have declined in the past ~40

years from, IIRC, 55% of all deaths to 35% ............. based on

what I saw last time I took a look at the data. Probably because of

the decline in the population's fat intake over that period, better

diagnosis and better treatments such as quadruple bypass surgery

(which gives people the opportunity to die of something else first

instead), take statins, eat less fat, and gentle exercise.)

Rodney.

>

>

>

> Well, you see, there were these 2 French doctors in an elevator

and....

>

> No, sorry, bad joke.

>

> The " French paradox " as it is called is the apparent fact that

despite

> living and eating a fairly hedonistic lifestyle (smoking, pate,

etc), the

> French have traditionally had much lower incidences of heart

disease as

> compared to other westerners, eg, esp the US. Part of this has been

> " explained " by their relatively high red wine consumption (compared

to our

> low wine consumption).

>

> Of course, some of this difference is apparently starting to

disappear as

> the French are eating more like us, becoming more overweight (and

drinking

> less wine than they used to).

>

>

>

> > >>though there does exist the

> > > French paradox.

> >

> > Could you explain this " paradox " ?

> >

> >

> >

>

> Jewell, Ph.D.

> Campus Mass Spectrometry Facilities

> UC

> cmsf.ucdavis.edu

>

[Guest guest]

> Well, you see, there were these 2 French doctors in

> an elevator and....

Thanks

I was playing the Advocates Devil.

There are some valid explanations for the " proposed "

" French Paradox "

1) Their " accounting " system for deaths from heart

disease is different than the system we use in the US.

Many " sudden deaths " in France are counted as

" natural causes " where in the US they are counted as

CVD. This alone is said to account for about 20% of

the difference

2) Time Lag.. The raise in saturated fat, and

cholesterol is only recent and takes a few decades to

show up in mortality statistics. And, recent trends

show it is starting to catch up

3) All Cause Mortality.. while they may have less

heart disease, which is said to be do the wine, they

have higher incidence of deaths from alcohol related

diseases, so their expectant lifespan is not really

any better.

There are some other factors also, like smoking and

cancer deaths..

There is a good review of this in a BMJ article from a

few years ago. Full text is online here..

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/318/7196/1471

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Here's the post Rod is talking about:

/message/16715

(the new search feature makes finding things in our archives soooo easy)

but it reads that " moderate " drinking is beneficial, not large quantities. Do we have something later than this that indicates " more is better " ?

on 10/30/2006 4:17 PM, Rodney at perspect1111@... wrote:

Hi Orb:

Some serious studies show a huge reduction in mortality for those who

drink wine, in a dose response manner up to rather large quantities of

wine (much larger quantities than I would be prepared to consume) and

for all causes of death - not just CVD. (Danish Epidemiology Science

Centre did the study I have in mind, searching for that in the

archives here would find the reference for sure.)

Similar results in the same study were not found for beer or liquor,

so presumably it is not the alcohol.

I am not aware of any empirical studies yet done that compared red

with white wine. Or with de-alcoholized wines, grape juice or other

juices.

I started drinking wine about twenty years ago in response to these

studies, but I do not confine my consumption to red.

There is also the question as to whether the health issues tackled by

drinking wine may be similar to those fixed by CRON. In which case

there may be less benefit in wine for us than for the general,

unhealthy, population. My bet is that the alcohol itself is likely a

net negative factor.

Rodney.

>

> I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing the 'net

> concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is anyone

> here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in general

> (and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot noir a

> so much richer source that one should not worry about other food/wine

> sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass (1

> glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack of

> testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French paradox. I

> do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

> consuming some red wine.

>

[Guest guest]

As with so much nutrition science these phenomenon are often conflicted. IIRC pure alcohol would increase HDL (good cholesterol) in a straight line with increased consumption. More HDL while perhaps heart protective will not cancel out the negative effects of excessive alcohol consumption on liver and other organs (brain?). Wine and even beer have different in both but both potentially beneficial non-alcohol components. So any of these analysis are very complex and may even vary somewhat in the context of the test subjects full nutrition/behavior profile.I can't think of anything in life where more without limit does not at sometime become too much of a good thing. (I'm willing to test my hypothesis on money and love but I digress).The benefit of drink perhaps like with poison is in the dose. Moderate consumption of adult beverages appear beneficial for many. YMMV.JR  On Oct 30, 2006, at 3:46 PM, Francesca Skelton wrote:Here's the post Rod is talking about: /message/16715(the new search feature makes finding things in our archives soooo easy)but it reads that "moderate" drinking is beneficial, not large quantities.  Do we have something later than this that indicates "more is better" ? on 10/30/2006 4:17 PM, Rodney at perspect1111 wrote:

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

Note that the abstract says THREE TO FIVE GLASSES of wine daily

reduced mortality by half.

But in addition, I have a hard copy of the full study. It shows that

the lowest mortality of all was found among those who drank MORE THAN

FIVE GLASSES OF WINE A DAY. But even in a study of that size they

didn't have enough people in the five-or-more group to achieve

statistical significance.

Especially notable was that beer drinking had no material affect on

mortality, no matter the amount consumed. And for liquor not much

effect was noted up to two drinks per day, but beyond a two drinks

daily threshold mortality rose quite quickly.

Here is the abstract:

" Mortality associated with moderate intakes of wine, beer, or

spirits.Gronbaek M, Deis A, Sorensen TI, Becker U, Schnohr P, Jensen

G.

Danish Epidemiology Science Centre, Institute of Preventive Medicine,

Copenhagen Hospital Corporation.

OBJECTIVE--To examine the association between intake of different

types of alcoholic drinks and mortality. DESIGN--Prospective

population study with baseline assessment of alcohol intake, smoking

habit, income, education, and body mass index, and 10-12 years'

follow up of mortality. SETTING--Copenhagen city heart study,

Denmark. SUBJECTS--6051 men and 7234 women aged 30-70 years. MAIN

OUTCOME MEASURE--Number and time of cause-specific deaths from 1976

to 1988. RESULTS--The risk of dying steadily decreased with an

increasing intake of wine--from a relative risk of 1.00 for the

subjects who never drank wine to 0.51 (95% confidence interval 0.32

to 0.81) for those who drank three to five glasses a day. Intake of

neither beer nor spirits, however, was associated with reduced risk.

For spirits intake the relative risk of dying increased from 1.00 for

those who never drank to 1.34 (1.05 to 1.71) for those with an intake

of three to five drinks a day. The effects of the three types of

alcoholic drinks seemed to be independent of each other, and no

significant interactions existed with sex, age, education, income,

smoking, or body mass index. Wine drinking showed the same relation

to risk of death from cardiovascular and cerebrovascular disease as

to risk of death from all causes. CONCLUSION--Low to moderate intake

of wine is associated with lower mortality from cardiovascular and

cerebrovascular disease and other causes. Similar intake of spirits

implied an increased risk, while beer drinking did not affect

mortality. "

PMID: 7767150

Rodney.

> >

> > I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing the 'net

> > concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is

anyone

> > here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in general

> > (and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot

noir a

> > so much richer source that one should not worry about other

food/wine

> > sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass (1

> > glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack of

> > testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French

paradox. I

> > do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

> > consuming some red wine.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

More alcohol is better for cardiovascular disease, yes, but at a certain level its deleterious effects (hepatitis, cirrhosis, increasedcancers of various types- esophagus, oral, breast, etc.) make itan overall negative for health.

On 10/30/06, Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> wrote:

Here's the post Rod is talking about:

/message/16715

(the new search feature makes finding things in our archives soooo easy)

but it reads that " moderate " drinking is beneficial, not large quantities. Do we have something later than this that indicates " more is better " ?

on 10/30/2006 4:17 PM, Rodney at perspect1111 wrote:

Hi Orb:

Some serious studies show a huge reduction in mortality for those who

drink wine, in a dose response manner up to rather large quantities of

wine (much larger quantities than I would be prepared to consume) and

for all causes of death - not just CVD. (Danish Epidemiology Science

Centre did the study I have in mind, searching for that in the

archives here would find the reference for sure.)

Similar results in the same study were not found for beer or liquor,

so presumably it is not the alcohol.

I am not aware of any empirical studies yet done that compared red

with white wine. Or with de-alcoholized wines, grape juice or other

juices.

I started drinking wine about twenty years ago in response to these

studies, but I do not confine my consumption to red.

There is also the question as to whether the health issues tackled by

drinking wine may be similar to those fixed by CRON. In which case

there may be less benefit in wine for us than for the general,

unhealthy, population. My bet is that the alcohol itself is likely a

net negative factor.

Rodney.

>

> I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing the 'net

> concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is anyone

> here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in general

> (and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot noir a

> so much richer source that one should not worry about other food/wine

> sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass (1

> glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack of

> testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French paradox. I

> do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

> consuming some red wine.

>

[Guest guest]

At 04:49 PM 10/30/2006, you wrote:

>Hi Francesca:

>

>Note that the abstract says THREE TO FIVE GLASSES of wine daily

>reduced mortality by half.

>

>But in addition, I have a hard copy of the full study. It shows that

>the lowest mortality of all was found among those who drank MORE THAN

>FIVE GLASSES OF WINE A DAY. But even in a study of that size they

>didn't have enough people in the five-or-more group to achieve

>statistical significance.

>

>Especially notable was that beer drinking had no material affect on

>mortality, no matter the amount consumed. And for liquor not much

>effect was noted up to two drinks per day, but beyond a two drinks

>daily threshold mortality rose quite quickly.

I leverage my bet on resveratrol by washing down a Longevinex capsule with

my daily sizeable glass of red wine.

Maco

[Guest guest]

Increased mortality related to heavy alcohol intake pattern.

Laatikainen T,

Manninen L,

Poikolainen K,

Vartiainen E.

KTL (National Public Health Institute),

Department of Epidemiology and Health Promotion, Helsinki, Finland.

Tiina.Laatikainen@...

STUDY OBJECTIVE: Although moderate alcohol intake

is related to decreased all cause and ischaemic heart disease

mortality, intake of large amounts at a time may be harmful. DESIGN: A

cohort study, average follow up time was 7.3 years. SETTING: Finland.

PARTICIPANTS: General population sample of 5092 men, aged from 25 to 64

years, who had consumed alcohol during the 12 months before the

baseline examination. MAIN RESULTS: The main outcome measure was death.

After excluding cases with previous myocardial infarction at the

baseline examination and after adjustment for age, education, smoking,

and average alcohol intake in proportional hazards model, subjects

with heavy drinking pattern (six or more drinks at a time) still had

higher mortality from all causes than drinkers without heavy drinking

occasions (RR 1.57; 95% CI 1.17 to 2.10). Respective analyses showed

increased risk also for ischaemic heart disease (1.77; 95% CI 1.01 to

3.08), external causes (2.90; 95% CI 1.47 to 5.72) and alcohol related

causes of death (2.73; 95% CI 1.13 to 6.64). The last two risk ratios

were not adjusted for smoking. Relative risk point estimates were

approximately similar for drinkers with heavy drinking occasions

irrespective of beverage type, although those for beer and wine did not

reach significance, probably because of the small number of cases. The

highest average alcohol intake was found among drinkers who consumed

all three types of beverage. CONCLUSIONS: Consuming six or more drinks

at a time is related to increased mortality among working age male

drinkers. The authors found no clear evidence for beverage specific

differences.

PMID: 12700224 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

On 10/30/06, Rodney <perspect1111@...> wrote:

Hi Francesca:

Note that the abstract says THREE TO FIVE GLASSES of wine daily

reduced mortality by half.

But in addition, I have a hard copy of the full study. It shows that

the lowest mortality of all was found among those who drank MORE THAN

FIVE GLASSES OF WINE A DAY. But even in a study of that size they

didn't have enough people in the five-or-more group to achieve

statistical significance.

Especially notable was that beer drinking had no material affect on

mortality, no matter the amount consumed. And for liquor not much

effect was noted up to two drinks per day, but beyond a two drinks

daily threshold mortality rose quite quickly.

Here is the abstract:

" Mortality associated with moderate intakes of wine, beer, or

spirits.Gronbaek M, Deis A, Sorensen TI, Becker U, Schnohr P, Jensen

G.

Danish Epidemiology Science Centre, Institute of Preventive Medicine,

Copenhagen Hospital Corporation.

OBJECTIVE--To examine the association between intake of different

types of alcoholic drinks and mortality. DESIGN--Prospective

population study with baseline assessment of alcohol intake, smoking

habit, income, education, and body mass index, and 10-12 years'

follow up of mortality. SETTING--Copenhagen city heart study,

Denmark. SUBJECTS--6051 men and 7234 women aged 30-70 years. MAIN

OUTCOME MEASURE--Number and time of cause-specific deaths from 1976

to 1988. RESULTS--The risk of dying steadily decreased with an

increasing intake of wine--from a relative risk of 1.00 for the

subjects who never drank wine to 0.51 (95% confidence interval 0.32

to 0.81) for those who drank three to five glasses a day. Intake of

neither beer nor spirits, however, was associated with reduced risk.

For spirits intake the relative risk of dying increased from 1.00 for

those who never drank to 1.34 (1.05 to 1.71) for those with an intake

of three to five drinks a day. The effects of the three types of

alcoholic drinks seemed to be independent of each other, and no

significant interactions existed with sex, age, education, income,

smoking, or body mass index. Wine drinking showed the same relation

to risk of death from cardiovascular and cerebrovascular disease as

to risk of death from all causes. CONCLUSION--Low to moderate intake

of wine is associated with lower mortality from cardiovascular and

cerebrovascular disease and other causes. Similar intake of spirits

implied an increased risk, while beer drinking did not affect

mortality. "

PMID: 7767150

Rodney.

> >

> > I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing the 'net

> > concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is

anyone

> > here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in general

> > (and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot

noir a

> > so much richer source that one should not worry about other

food/wine

> > sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass (1

> > glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack of

> > testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French

paradox. I

> > do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

> > consuming some red wine.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing the 'net

> concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is anyone

> here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in general

> (and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot

noir a

> so much richer source that one should not worry about other

food/wine

> sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass (1

> glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack of

> testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French paradox.

I

> do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

> consuming some red wine.

>

>

> I like red wine myself, but what do you do when your sinuses act

as though wine is poison? They seem to plug up and occasionally to

the point that I get a headache. Any suggestions? or just send me

packing to find this source elsewhere?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

One of the best sources is the skin of red grapes - thought to be the reason why red wine is so beneficial. So if I were you, I surely wouldn't drink the wine if I was allergic to it in any way (your body is telling you something important). I'd eat red grapes. There are also a few other sources which you can find by looking up " foods that contain resveratrol " on the web.

on 10/30/2006 7:26 PM, Beverly at beverlyc2@... wrote:

> I like red wine myself, but what do you do when your sinuses act

as though wine is poison? They seem to plug up and occasionally to

the point that I get a headache. Any suggestions? or just send me

packing to find this source elsewhere?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Beverly:

'Red wine headache' is a well-known phenomenon, to which some people

are susceptible, and those who get it would probably be better off

not drinking it. Perhaps trying white wine instead?

Rodney

> >

> > I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing the 'net

> > concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is

anyone

> > here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in general

> > (and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot

> noir a

> > so much richer source that one should not worry about other

> food/wine

> > sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass (1

> > glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack of

> > testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French

paradox.

> I

> > do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

> > consuming some red wine.

> >

> >

> > I like red wine myself, but what do you do when your sinuses act

> as though wine is poison? They seem to plug up and occasionally to

> the point that I get a headache. Any suggestions? or just send me

> packing to find this source elsewhere?

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I believe that red wine causes headaches (at least in some people)

due to the presence of tyramine (a by-product of the breakdown of

the amino acid tyrosine). If this is the cause for a particular

person, perhaps younger wines may have less tyramine and might be

worth a try? Or consuming very small quantities.

(If other high-tyramine foods also cause headaches in a person, then

the tyramine in some red wines may be the cause as well. Tyramine is

also found in high levels in aged cheeses, smoked and canned meats

and fish, protein-based leftovers, lentils, and some vegetables,

like spinach. The lists of foods to avoid given to people on MAO

inhibitors are based on the tyramine connection. Ingisting tyramine

causes people on MAO inhibitors to go into hypertensive crisis.

People whose migraines are triggered by high-tyramine foods also

follow lists of what foods to avoid. Several lists show up if you do

a web search on the word tyramine diet.)

I don't have a published scientific source for the above, but have

been managing my 5-year-old son's Familial Dysautonomia ( " FD " )(see

www.fdhope.org) by avoiding giving him high-tyramine foods. His

condition makes him naturally low in MAO-A, just like people on MAO

inhibitors. If he consumes tyramine, he will go into severe

autonomic (hypertensive) crisis. My husband, who is a carrier for

FD, has to avoid high-tyramine foods or else he'll get a 2-3 month

long cluster migraine headache. I am also a carrier for FD, and have

occasionally triggered migraines in myself by ingesting foods high

in tyramine, such as lentils. I consume red wine in small

quantities, prefer younger wines, and tend to stick to Oregon Pinot

Noirs when I can find them.

So, I guess we're a three-mouse lab, and those are our unpublished

empirical results.

> > >

> > > I was just reading some old posts here and also browsing

the 'net

> > > concerning resveratrol in red wine and some other foods. Is

> anyone

> > > here very well-briefed on the importance of resveratrol in

general

> > > (and particularly as it pertains to life extension)? Is pinot

> > noir a

> > > so much richer source that one should not worry about other

> > food/wine

> > > sources? Is it generally deemed that CRONies consume a glass

(1

> > > glass?) of pinot noir daily, given the uncertainties and lack

of

> > > testing in mammals -- though there does exist the French

> paradox.

> > I

> > > do not drink alcohol now, but I am most likely about to start

> > > consuming some red wine.

> > >

> > >

> > > I like red wine myself, but what do you do when your sinuses

act

> > as though wine is poison? They seem to plug up and occasionally

to

> > the point that I get a headache. Any suggestions? or just send

me

> > packing to find this source elsewhere?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >