Re: Jeff's nutritional challenge

[Guest guest]

....

>

> I have left a challenge on this board now for a few

> years for anyone to design a diet that is CR and hit

> all the RDAs for all known nutrients, and be over 25%

> fat. So far, no one has posted one.

>

> Regards

> Jeff

>

Jeff,

I was not aware of your challenge, but I issued a similar one on the

Calorie Restriction Society list after a couple of members visiting

the oldest CRS member claimed that he only ate about 600 calories per

day. I expressed my skepticism that it was possible to get all the

RDAs, thus achieving optimum nutrition, with so few calories and I

suggested the contest below.

A minimum calorie one-day menu meeting all the RDAs would be very

useful to all the members of this group. It could be used as a basis

for any CRON diet just by adding additional calories to meet

individual needs. Since you are a professional in the nutrition area,

could you please post a one-day menu that meets all the RDAs, even if

it is not minimum calories?

The only reply to my original note in the other group was from JW who

suggested eating about 7.5 pounds of Romaine lettuce per day. I was

surprised to find out how nutritious that can be, but the suggestion

did not meet all RDAs.

Tony

=== === ===

Contest Objective:

Design a one-day menu with the minimum number of

calories possible that abides by all the contest

rules.

Contest Rules:

1) All food products must be chosen from the USDA

database [1].

2) Dietary supplements or vitamin pills are not

allowed. (This may not be fair, but that is a rule

for this contest)

3) The food selected must have at least 5 grams of

essential omega-6:omega-3 fatty acids in a 4:1 ratio

4) All the FDA minimum requirements[2] must be met or

exceeded with the following exceptions:

- Carbohydrates may be reduced to any desired amount,

but the fiber requirement must be met

- Fat may be reduced as desired, except as noted in

Rule 3

- Protein may not be reduced below 40 grams per day

(which is 0.8g/kg for a 50kg (110lb) person)[3]

[1] USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard

Reference (SR 18)

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

[2] Food Labeling CFR References

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/flg-7a.html

[3] Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy,

Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol,

Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients) (2005)

http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/589.html

You may use DWIDP, Fitday, CRON-o-meter or any tool

that you want.

[Guest guest]

Tony

I think your challenge is slightly different than mine

but will be glad to address it.

Before I do, let me clarify..

My challenge is to create a CRON diet that has optimal

nutrition and a percentage of fat over 20 to 25%. The

calorie level doesnt have to be the least possible but

one that would satisfy a typical CRONie... ie

1200-1800 calories.

In your challenge, are you trying to see the most

nutritious diet for the least calories possible?

I guess we could address both.

JW was on the right path and dark green leafy

vegetable would be a large part, as they are the most

nutrient dense per calorie for most nutrients, but it

would need a few more items in it to address a few

other nutrient issues.

Thanks

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi:

And are artificially nutrient-'enriched' foods permitted in this

contest? It would be much easier to achieve if they are. But that

is essentially cheating too, just as adding the supplements

themselves would be.

And are excesses above the USL permitted? Such as iron. Some

supplement enriched foods will easily do that to you. And it would

hardly be beneficial.

Rodney.

--- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

wrote:

>

> Tony

>

> I think your challenge is slightly different than mine

> but will be glad to address it.

>

> Before I do, let me clarify..

>

> My challenge is to create a CRON diet that has optimal

> nutrition and a percentage of fat over 20 to 25%. The

> calorie level doesnt have to be the least possible but

> one that would satisfy a typical CRONie... ie

> 1200-1800 calories.

>

> In your challenge, are you trying to see the most

> nutritious diet for the least calories possible?

>

> I guess we could address both.

>

> JW was on the right path and dark green leafy

> vegetable would be a large part, as they are the most

> nutrient dense per calorie for most nutrients, but it

> would need a few more items in it to address a few

> other nutrient issues.

>

> Thanks

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

Here is my answer in " general " terms. I will post

specifics and a nutrient analysis later.

Jeff

For the diet to be CR-ON, we have to look at what food

have the most nutients per calorie, (nutrient

density).

Green leafy vegetable win hands down. So, they would

need to make up a large percent of the diet to

accomplish this.

So, either any one green leafy (like romaine, bok

choy, or kale) which are some of the most nutrient

dense) or a mixture of them, (raw and/or cooked) and

plug them in at around 800 calories from leafy greens.

This will almost hit the RDA of every nutrient other

than Vit D and as you mentioned Vit E and maybe one or

two others (ie selenium).

Add in 1/4 - 1/2 oz brazil nuts or a mixture of any

nuts (include brazil nuts, sunflower seeds, almonds,

etc)) and you will cover most of the missing nutrients

like Selenium, Vit E. This is around another 45- 90

calories

Add in some berries, around 100-200 calories worth to

add in some phytochemicals (though no RDAs yet)

Add in one oz of lean animal protein, like chicken or

fish and you cover the B12 issue. this is another 50

calories

You will also find that even the Omega 3s are adequate

as is the Omega 6 and 3 ratio.

You may have to tweak it slightly, but you are there

except for Vit D so make sure you eat this while

sitting outside in the sun.

Not only have you meet, you have surpassed all the

RDAs,and you have not exceeded safe limits of

saturated fat, hudrogenated fat, cholesterol, sodium

and refined sugars.

So, depending on how you tweak it, you can hit it all

for around 1000-1200 calories at most.

Then, you can add in other foods, based on activity

level, and personal preference, taste, etc and you win

on every front as long as you choose additional foods

that are not high in salt, sugar, saturated far or

cholesterol

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Is simply consuming all the *known* RDA's achieving optimum nutrition?

Is therean official RDA for various fiber, for instance? I could

simply take a vitamin pill to meet the known RDA for vitamin and

mineral, consume NO food, but what of the (as yet) UNKNOWN nutrients

contained in food?

I don't understand the practical utility or rationale of this

challenge. For optimum nutrition I've read here many time we should

eat a variety of many different kinds of whole natural foods and

consume enough calories to give us at least some chance of getting

enough of the phytochems and whatever else we may need where the RDA

is unknown at present. Planning a minimum calories diet around only

the RDA's defeats this purpose doesn't it?

The diet *I* am interested in is what is the ratio of the various

types of food (leafy greens, fruits, legumes etc) I need to consume to

get not only all the known RDA's but also maximize all those

" up & comer " nutrients that are so promising as of late, ie the

phytochems and such? But also keeping calories ~1800/day, and the

macronutrients in the ranges suggested by Jeff.

Jeff, when you have the time, what would this look like?

bill

> ...

> >

> > I have left a challenge on this board now for a few

> > years for anyone to design a diet that is CR and hit

> > all the RDAs for all known nutrients, and be over 25%

> > fat. So far, no one has posted one.

> >

> > Regards

> > Jeff

> >

>

> Jeff,

>

> I was not aware of your challenge, but I issued a similar one on the

> Calorie Restriction Society list after a couple of members visiting

> the oldest CRS member claimed that he only ate about 600 calories per

> day. I expressed my skepticism that it was possible to get all the

> RDAs, thus achieving optimum nutrition, with so few calories and I

> suggested the contest below.

>

> A minimum calorie one-day menu meeting all the RDAs would be very

> useful to all the members of this group. It could be used as a basis

> for any CRON diet just by adding additional calories to meet

> individual needs. Since you are a professional in the nutrition area,

> could you please post a one-day menu that meets all the RDAs, even if

> it is not minimum calories?

>

> The only reply to my original note in the other group was from JW who

> suggested eating about 7.5 pounds of Romaine lettuce per day. I was

> surprised to find out how nutritious that can be, but the suggestion

> did not meet all RDAs.

>

> Tony

>

> === === ===

> Contest Objective:

> Design a one-day menu with the minimum number of

> calories possible that abides by all the contest

> rules.

>

> Contest Rules:

> 1) All food products must be chosen from the USDA

> database [1].

>

> 2) Dietary supplements or vitamin pills are not

> allowed. (This may not be fair, but that is a rule

> for this contest)

>

> 3) The food selected must have at least 5 grams of

> essential omega-6:omega-3 fatty acids in a 4:1 ratio

>

> 4) All the FDA minimum requirements[2] must be met or

> exceeded with the following exceptions:

> - Carbohydrates may be reduced to any desired amount,

> but the fiber requirement must be met

> - Fat may be reduced as desired, except as noted in

> Rule 3

> - Protein may not be reduced below 40 grams per day

> (which is 0.8g/kg for a 50kg (110lb) person)[3]

>

> [1] USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard

> Reference (SR 18)

> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

>

> [2] Food Labeling CFR References

> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/flg-7a.html

>

> [3] Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy,

> Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol,

> Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients) (2005)

> http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309085373/html/589.html

>

> You may use DWIDP, Fitday, CRON-o-meter or any tool

> that you want.

>

[Guest guest]

I dont think you, I or Tony disagree..

There are RDAs, DRIs, AIs, set by various

organizations and you are right, they are only for

known nutrients.

So, meeting those is at least satisfying the needs of

what we know. And, more than likely, when you do this

thru whole foods, which I am recommending, you are

also getting in all the unknown nutrients that exist

in the whole foods and not in the pills/supplements.

In this way, the RDAs, DRIs, AIs are not only 'needs "

they are also " markers " .

When you are done, the ratios of the macronutrients

will be in the ranges I recommended.

And, there will also be room for lots of variety

amongst the recommendations.

The reason this is important, is that lets say I show

you how to do it at 1200 calories... hit all the

known (and probably unknown) nutrients you need. And

you were to consume 1800 calories. You know have 600

calories to do what you want, as long as you dont

choose foods that will hurt you.

Regards

jeff

[Guest guest]

Romaine was just a place to start, intended to show a plant based diet can be chosen. Actually, must be chosen. But meeting a 600 kcal diet with all the RDAs at 600 kcals is tough without a Ca and Mg supplement. I rather doubt the person ate that little.

I think what we found was it's not practical - there is no "perfect" food.

Every time that happens, I hafta ask maybe the RDA's aren't right, because I'm sure early people had to eat fruit, nuts, veggies. But notice the RDA's are not scaled as to person's weight.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Jeff's Nutritional Challenge

...> > I have left a challenge on this board now for a few> years for anyone to design a diet that is CR and hit> all the RDAs for all known nutrients, and be over 25%> fat. So far, no one has posted one.> > Regards> Jeff>Jeff,I was not aware of your challenge, but I issued a similar one on theCalorie Restriction Society list after a couple of members visitingthe oldest CRS member claimed that he only ate about 600 calories perday. I expressed my skepticism that it was possible to get all theRDAs, thus achieving optimum nutrition, with so few calories and Isuggested the contest below.A minimum calorie one-day menu meeting all the RDAs would be veryuseful to all the members of this group. It could be used as a basisfor any CRON diet just by adding additional calories to meetindividual needs. Since you are a professional in the nutrition area,could you please post a one-day menu that meets all the RDAs, even ifit is not minimum calories? The only reply to my original note in the other group was from JW whosuggested eating about 7.5 pounds of Romaine lettuce per day. I wassurprised to find out how nutritious that can be, but the suggestiondid not meet all RDAs.Tony

..

[Guest guest]

Any suggestions regarding HOW to consume 800 calories worth of leafy

greens? I tried to eat greens for lunch today (cooked spinach and

brussel sprouts) and I couldn't force down more than 200 calories

worth.

--- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

wrote:

>

> Here is my answer in " general " terms. I will post

> specifics and a nutrient analysis later.

>

> Jeff

>

> For the diet to be CR-ON, we have to look at what food

> have the most nutients per calorie, (nutrient

> density).

>

> Green leafy vegetable win hands down. So, they would

> need to make up a large percent of the diet to

> accomplish this.

>

> So, either any one green leafy (like romaine, bok

> choy, or kale) which are some of the most nutrient

> dense) or a mixture of them, (raw and/or cooked) and

> plug them in at around 800 calories from leafy greens.

> This will almost hit the RDA of every nutrient other

> than Vit D and as you mentioned Vit E and maybe one or

> two others (ie selenium).

>

> Add in 1/4 - 1/2 oz brazil nuts or a mixture of any

> nuts (include brazil nuts, sunflower seeds, almonds,

> etc)) and you will cover most of the missing nutrients

> like Selenium, Vit E. This is around another 45- 90

> calories

>

> Add in some berries, around 100-200 calories worth to

> add in some phytochemicals (though no RDAs yet)

>

> Add in one oz of lean animal protein, like chicken or

> fish and you cover the B12 issue. this is another 50

> calories

>

> You will also find that even the Omega 3s are adequate

> as is the Omega 6 and 3 ratio.

>

> You may have to tweak it slightly, but you are there

> except for Vit D so make sure you eat this while

> sitting outside in the sun.

>

> Not only have you meet, you have surpassed all the

> RDAs,and you have not exceeded safe limits of

> saturated fat, hudrogenated fat, cholesterol, sodium

> and refined sugars.

>

> So, depending on how you tweak it, you can hit it all

> for around 1000-1200 calories at most.

>

> Then, you can add in other foods, based on activity

> level, and personal preference, taste, etc and you win

> on every front as long as you choose additional foods

> that are not high in salt, sugar, saturated far or

> cholesterol

>

> Regards

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

Sure - 4 x per day...

[ ] Re: Jeff's Nutritional Challenge

Any suggestions regarding HOW to consume 800 calories worth of leafy greens?

I tried to eat greens for lunch today (cooked spinach and brussel sprouts)

and I couldn't force down more than 200 calories worth.

--- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

wrote:

>

> Here is my answer in " general " terms. I will post specifics and a

> nutrient analysis later.

>

> Jeff

>

> For the diet to be CR-ON, we have to look at what food have the most

> nutients per calorie, (nutrient density).

>

> Green leafy vegetable win hands down. So, they would need to make up

> a large percent of the diet to accomplish this.

>

> So, either any one green leafy (like romaine, bok choy, or kale) which

> are some of the most nutrient

> dense) or a mixture of them, (raw and/or cooked) and plug them in at

> around 800 calories from leafy greens.

> This will almost hit the RDA of every nutrient other than Vit D and as

> you mentioned Vit E and maybe one or two others (ie selenium).

>

> Add in 1/4 - 1/2 oz brazil nuts or a mixture of any nuts (include

> brazil nuts, sunflower seeds, almonds,

> etc)) and you will cover most of the missing nutrients like Selenium,

> Vit E. This is around another 45- 90 calories

>

> Add in some berries, around 100-200 calories worth to add in some

> phytochemicals (though no RDAs yet)

>

> Add in one oz of lean animal protein, like chicken or fish and you

> cover the B12 issue. this is another 50 calories

>

> You will also find that even the Omega 3s are adequate as is the Omega

> 6 and 3 ratio.

>

> You may have to tweak it slightly, but you are there except for Vit D

> so make sure you eat this while sitting outside in the sun.

>

> Not only have you meet, you have surpassed all the RDAs,and you have

> not exceeded safe limits of saturated fat, hudrogenated fat,

> cholesterol, sodium and refined sugars.

>

> So, depending on how you tweak it, you can hit it all for around

> 1000-1200 calories at most.

>

> Then, you can add in other foods, based on activity level, and

> personal preference, taste, etc and you win on every front as long as

> you choose additional foods that are not high in salt, sugar,

> saturated far or cholesterol

>

> Regards

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Well I put romaine in soups (the final ingredient before serving).

No reason not to eat lots of soups. And usually no reason not to add

some kind of leafy greens to them. I also have devised a " Kale

Bisque " recipe which is infernally tasty and, by my criteria at

least, healthy too. Sometime I will post it.

Rodney.

> >

> > Here is my answer in " general " terms. I will post

> > specifics and a nutrient analysis later.

> >

> > Jeff

> >

> > For the diet to be CR-ON, we have to look at what food

> > have the most nutients per calorie, (nutrient

> > density).

> >

> > Green leafy vegetable win hands down. So, they would

> > need to make up a large percent of the diet to

> > accomplish this.

> >

> > So, either any one green leafy (like romaine, bok

> > choy, or kale) which are some of the most nutrient

> > dense) or a mixture of them, (raw and/or cooked) and

> > plug them in at around 800 calories from leafy greens.

> > This will almost hit the RDA of every nutrient other

> > than Vit D and as you mentioned Vit E and maybe one or

> > two others (ie selenium).

> >

> > Add in 1/4 - 1/2 oz brazil nuts or a mixture of any

> > nuts (include brazil nuts, sunflower seeds, almonds,

> > etc)) and you will cover most of the missing nutrients

> > like Selenium, Vit E. This is around another 45- 90

> > calories

> >

> > Add in some berries, around 100-200 calories worth to

> > add in some phytochemicals (though no RDAs yet)

> >

> > Add in one oz of lean animal protein, like chicken or

> > fish and you cover the B12 issue. this is another 50

> > calories

> >

> > You will also find that even the Omega 3s are adequate

> > as is the Omega 6 and 3 ratio.

> >

> > You may have to tweak it slightly, but you are there

> > except for Vit D so make sure you eat this while

> > sitting outside in the sun.

> >

> > Not only have you meet, you have surpassed all the

> > RDAs,and you have not exceeded safe limits of

> > saturated fat, hudrogenated fat, cholesterol, sodium

> > and refined sugars.

> >

> > So, depending on how you tweak it, you can hit it all

> > for around 1000-1200 calories at most.

> >

> > Then, you can add in other foods, based on activity

> > level, and personal preference, taste, etc and you win

> > on every front as long as you choose additional foods

> > that are not high in salt, sugar, saturated far or

> > cholesterol

> >

> > Regards

> > Jeff

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> Any suggestions regarding HOW to consume 800

> calories worth of leafy

> greens?

Like with anything.. start where you are.. and take

small steps to reach your goal.

Also, while i havent finished my answer to the

question... it doesnt have to be just romaine, or

broccoli, or kale, it can be a variety of green leafy

veggies and other veggies. A huge salad everyday is

a must in my book. So is lots of steamed veggies. And

it may take a while for you to build up the ability to

eat it all.

At the center we have a huge salad bar everyday with

like 27 items on it that we rotate (which always

includes several varieties of green leafies) and

everyone gets a HUGE salad bowl to eat it in. No

small plates or bowls here. I call it the " Shock and

Awe " approach to salad.... if the salad you are

eating is not large enought to create " Shock and Awe "

in everyone who sees it, its not big enough!!

And we always serve 2 steamed veggies with it and some

variety of a vegetable soup. And, as Rodney said,

sneak green leafies into anything you can... soup,

stew, egg white omelete, pasta sauce..etc Keep raw

and cooked veggies around to snack on also.

You will find its not that hard. And you will enjoy

it more and more as time passes.

IMHO...I cant think of a more important health

principle in relation to food, especially for CRONies,

than to consume a large amount of green leafies and

vegetables a day. If I designed the food pyramid,

vegetables would be at the base, and it would be a

large base.

Enjoy

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more helpful answer!

In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop = 1/2 soup + 1/2

stew) with, in order of appearance:

Water for the base

Brown rice

Sweet potatoes

Beets

Fresh tomatoes

Fresh or Frozen green beans

Fresh Baby carrots

Fresh Onions, red

Frozen Corn

Kidney beans, pre-cooked

Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent, added last

It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!! Ingredients vary

according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is always a crowd

pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh tortillas, whatever

strikes your fancy

Marsha

p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

[Guest guest]

This sounds a lot like a stew that my husband makes once or twice a year. Canned tomatoes are the base but he adds beans, peas, onions, carrots and every veggie under the sun with a bit of firm soybean curd and exotic veggies like Rutabaga and turnips.

BTW all members should occasionally check the " CRON Checklist for food Variety " in our files unde: " Improving your CRON Program " . A wide variety of veggies and fruits is a good policy.

on 12/12/2006 10:20 PM, Marsha Finley at empyrean@... wrote:

Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more helpful answer!

In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop = 1/2 soup + 1/2

stew) with, in order of appearance:

Water for the base

Brown rice

Sweet potatoes

Beets

Fresh tomatoes

Fresh or Frozen green beans

Fresh Baby carrots

Fresh Onions, red

Frozen Corn

Kidney beans, pre-cooked

Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent, added last

It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!! Ingredients vary

according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is always a crowd

pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh tortillas, whatever

strikes your fancy

Marsha

p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

[Guest guest]

Hi Marsha:

If you have done the nutrition analysis of your Stewop it would be

really helpful to know what it came up with. TYIA.

Rodney.

--- In , " Marsha Finley " <empyrean@...>

wrote:

>

> Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more helpful

answer!

>

> In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop = 1/2

soup + 1/2

> stew) with, in order of appearance:

> Water for the base

> Brown rice

> Sweet potatoes

> Beets

> Fresh tomatoes

> Fresh or Frozen green beans

> Fresh Baby carrots

> Fresh Onions, red

> Frozen Corn

> Kidney beans, pre-cooked

> Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent, added

last

>

> It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!! Ingredients

vary

> according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is always a

crowd

> pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh tortillas,

whatever

> strikes your fancy

>

> Marsha

>

> p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

>

[Guest guest]

I love stews but how do you get the thick base without prolonged

cooking? I wonder if the long cooking temperature destroys nutrients

in the ingredients? Does anyone know what vitamins are susceptible to

destruction by heat, and how high and long? Are mineral immune to heat?

Anthocyanins, phenolics, lutein, indoles, allicin, carotenoids,

bioflavonoids, lycopene etc...

Are these above goodies destroyed by heat? Jeff do you know?

bill

> >

> > Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more helpful

> answer!

> >

> > In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop = 1/2

> soup + 1/2

> > stew) with, in order of appearance:

> > Water for the base

> > Brown rice

> > Sweet potatoes

> > Beets

> > Fresh tomatoes

> > Fresh or Frozen green beans

> > Fresh Baby carrots

> > Fresh Onions, red

> > Frozen Corn

> > Kidney beans, pre-cooked

> > Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent, added

> last

> >

> > It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!! Ingredients

> vary

> > according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is always a

> crowd

> > pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh tortillas,

> whatever

> > strikes your fancy

> >

> > Marsha

> >

> > p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Realistically, I doubt anyone can eat 6 # of romaine and I wouldn't rec a lot of any greens all at once. I find the "fibers" in veggies are different. There may be allergies, especially if eaten raw.

The other thing is cost. Six # would cost 5$ per day each - would make a large dent in my food dollars, with little energy.

Energy is the primary ingredient which has been perfected for the masses, simply because of the cost of freight and the labor to grow it.

Feeding a city of a million on romaine involves moving high cost water.

Visualize what you would CARRY on a 5 day hike. You must have water, of course, but the food ends up being something like peanuts and sugar.

Grains are a logical choice. Nuts are good but have a short shelf life.

Regards.

[ ] Re: Jeff's Nutritional Challenge

Any suggestions regarding HOW to consume 800 calories worth of leafy greens? I tried to eat greens for lunch today (cooked spinach and brussel sprouts) and I couldn't force down more than 200 calories worth.>> Here is my answer in "general" terms. I will post> specifics and a nutrient analysis later.> > Jeff> > For the diet to be CR-ON, we have to look at what food> have the most nutients per calorie, (nutrient> density).> > Green leafy vegetable win hands down. So, they would> need to make up a large percent of the diet to> accomplish this. > > So, either any one green leafy (like romaine, bok> choy, or kale) which are some of the most nutrient> dense) or a mixture of them, (raw and/or cooked) and> plug them in at around 800 calories from leafy greens.> This will almost hit the RDA of every nutrient other> than Vit D and as you mentioned Vit E and maybe one or> two others (ie selenium). > > Add in 1/4 - 1/2 oz brazil nuts or a mixture of any> nuts (include brazil nuts, sunflower seeds, almonds,> etc)) and you will cover most of the missing nutrients> like Selenium, Vit E. This is around another 45- 90> calories> > Add in some berries, around 100-200 calories worth to> add in some phytochemicals (though no RDAs yet)> > Add in one oz of lean animal protein, like chicken or> fish and you cover the B12 issue. this is another 50> calories> > You will also find that even the Omega 3s are adequate> as is the Omega 6 and 3 ratio.> > You may have to tweak it slightly, but you are there> except for Vit D so make sure you eat this while> sitting outside in the sun. > > Not only have you meet, you have surpassed all the> RDAs,and you have not exceeded safe limits of> saturated fat, hudrogenated fat, cholesterol, sodium> and refined sugars.> > So, depending on how you tweak it, you can hit it all> for around 1000-1200 calories at most. > > Then, you can add in other foods, based on activity> level, and personal preference, taste, etc and you win> on every front as long as you choose additional foods> that are not high in salt, sugar, saturated far or> cholesterol> > Regards> Jeff>

[Guest guest]

As a semi-chemist with an interest in food science, I can say that most of

these compounds listed are fairly stable at cooking temperatures. They are

all fairly stable molecules with perhaps the exception of allicin. Minerals

are extremely stable and vitamins are also fairly stable although some can

oxidize like Vit E (tocophoerols esp.).

Lycopene, as it turns out, is very heat stable and actually gets

concentrated in food processing so that the lycopene content per gram is

actually highest in tomato paste, followed by tomato sauce and finally raw

tomatoes. How do I know this? ;-) I was actually part of a study that

looked at this during my postdoc: Takeoka GR, Dao L, Flessa S, Gillespie

DM, Jewell WT, Huebner B, Bertow D, Ebeler SE. Processing effects on

lycopene content and antioxidant activity of tomatoes. J Agric Food Chem.

2001 Aug;49(8):3713-7.

So eat your tomato paste (with a trace of fat to help absorption). Yum!

Cheers,

-Will

> I love stews but how do you get the thick base without prolonged

> cooking? I wonder if the long cooking temperature destroys nutrients

> in the ingredients? Does anyone know what vitamins are susceptible to

> destruction by heat, and how high and long? Are mineral immune to heat? =

> =20

>

> Anthocyanins, phenolics, lutein, indoles, allicin, carotenoids,

> bioflavonoids, lycopene etc...

>

> Are these above goodies destroyed by heat? Jeff do you know?

>

> bill

>

>

> > >

> > > Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more helpful=20

> > answer!

> > >=20

> > > In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop =3D 1/2=20

> > soup + 1/2

> > > stew) with, in order of appearance:

> > > Water for the base

> > > Brown rice

> > > Sweet potatoes

> > > Beets

> > > Fresh tomatoes

> > > Fresh or Frozen green beans

> > > Fresh Baby carrots

> > > Fresh Onions, red=20

> > > Frozen Corn

> > > Kidney beans, pre-cooked

> > > Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent,

> added=20

> > last

> > >=20=20

> > > It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!! Ingredients=20

> > vary

> > > according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is always a=20

> > crowd

> > > pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh tortillas,=20

> > whatever

> > > strikes your fancy

> > >=20

> > > Marsha

> > >=20

> > > p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

> > >

> >

>

>

>

Jewell, Ph.D.

Campus Mass Spectrometry Facilities

UC

cmsf.ucdavis.edu

[Guest guest]

> Are these above goodies destroyed by heat? Jeff do

> you know?

Some may be enhanced

Lycopene in cooked tomatoes is documented as being of

higher bioavailability than in raw. However cooking

can reduce the total lycopene content - see paper

below; this is not a surprise. Tomatoes are often

consumed in sauce or concentrated puree form. The

cooking (to make sauce)will reduce lycopene content

and make the remaining lycopene more bioavailable,

while the concentration effect (water loss) could

increase lycopene levels. One wonders what the final

result would be in terms of nutritional efficiency.

Journal of Food Science

Volume 71 Issue 8 Page C461 - October 2006

Effects of Cooking Conditions on the Lycopene Content

in Tomatoes M. Mayeaux, Z. Xu, J.M. King, and W.

Prinyawiwatkul

ABSTRACT:

Raw tomato contains a high level of lycopene, which

has been reported to have many important health

benefits. However, information on the changes of

the lycopene content in tomato during cooking is

limited. In this study,the lycopene content in raw and

thermally processed (baked, microwaved, and

fried) tomato slurries was investigated and analyzed

using a high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC)

method. In the thermal stability study using a pure

lycopene standard, 50% of lycopene was degraded at 100

deg C after 60 min, 125 deg C after 20 min, and 150

deg C after less than 10 min. Only 64.1% and 51.5%

lycopene was retained when the tomato slurry was baked

at 177 deg C and 218 deg C for 15 min,

respectively. At these temperatures, only 37.3% and

25.1% of lycopene was retained after baking for 45

min. In 1 min of the high power of microwave

heating, 64.4% of lycopene still remained. However,

more degradation of lycopene in the slurry was found

in the frying study. Only 36.6% and 35.5% of lycopene

was retained after frying at 145 and 165 deg C for 1

min, respectively.

Abstract online at:

http://www.blackwel l-synergy. com/doi/abs/ 10.1111/j.

1750-3841. 2006.00163. x

[Guest guest]

Will, you mentioned tocopherols. Do you happen to know whether

tocotrienols are more or less stable than their mirror Vitamin E

counterparts?

> > > >

> > > > Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more

helpful=20

> > > answer!

> > > >=20

> > > > In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop

=3D 1/2=20

> > > soup + 1/2

> > > > stew) with, in order of appearance:

> > > > Water for the base

> > > > Brown rice

> > > > Sweet potatoes

> > > > Beets

> > > > Fresh tomatoes

> > > > Fresh or Frozen green beans

> > > > Fresh Baby carrots

> > > > Fresh Onions, red=20

> > > > Frozen Corn

> > > > Kidney beans, pre-cooked

> > > > Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent,

> > added=20

> > > last

> > > >=20=20

> > > > It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!!

Ingredients=20

> > > vary

> > > > according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is

always a=20

> > > crowd

> > > > pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh

tortillas,=20

> > > whatever

> > > > strikes your fancy

> > > >=20

> > > > Marsha

> > > >=20

> > > > p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Jewell, Ph.D.

> Campus Mass Spectrometry Facilities

> UC

> cmsf.ucdavis.edu

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know much about the tocotrienols but they are certainly receiving

more interest of late. I did a quick Pubmed lookup and got this below.

Does this help?

-W

Chem Phys Lipids. 2003 Mar;123(1):63-75.Click here to read Links

Comparative study on the action of tocopherols and tocotrienols as

antioxidant: chemical and physical effects. Yoshida Y, Niki E,Noguchi N.

Human Stress Signal Research Center (HSSRC), National Institute of Advanced

Industrial Science and Technology (AIST), Ikeda, Osaka 563-8577, Japan.

yoshida-ya@...

alpha-Tocopherol is known as the most abundant and active form of

vitamin E homologues in vivo, but recently the role of other forms of

vitamin E has received renewed attention. The antioxidant properties were

compared for alpha-, beta-, gamma- and delta-tocopherols and tocotrienols.

The following results were obtained: (1). the corresponding tocopherols and

tocotrienols exerted the same reactivities toward radicals and the same

antioxidant activities against lipid peroxidation in solution and liposomal

membranes; (2). tocopherols gave more significant physical effect than

tocotrienols on the increase in rigidity at the membrane interior; (3).

tocopherols and tocotrienols showed similar mobilities within the

membranes, but tocotrienols were more readily transferred between the

membranes and incorporated into the membranes than tocopherols; (4).

alpha-tocopherol and alpha-tocotrienol, but not the other forms, reduced

Cu(II) to give Cu(I) together with alpha-tocopheryl and alpha-tocotrienyl

quinones, respectively and exerted prooxidant effect in the oxidation of

methyl linoleate in SDS micelles.

> Will, you mentioned tocopherols. Do you happen to know whether=20

> tocotrienols are more or less stable than their mirror Vitamin E=20

> counterparts?

>

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more=20

> helpful=3D20

> > > > answer!

> > > > >=3D20

> > > > > In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop=20

> =3D3D 1/2=3D20

> > > > soup + 1/2

> > > > > stew) with, in order of appearance:

> > > > > Water for the base

> > > > > Brown rice

> > > > > Sweet potatoes

> > > > > Beets

> > > > > Fresh tomatoes

> > > > > Fresh or Frozen green beans

> > > > > Fresh Baby carrots

> > > > > Fresh Onions, red=3D20

> > > > > Frozen Corn

> > > > > Kidney beans, pre-cooked

> > > > > Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent,

> > > added=3D20

> > > > last

> > > > >=3D20=3D20

> > > > > It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!!=20=20

> Ingredients=3D20

> > > > vary

> > > > > according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is=20

> always a=3D20

> > > > crowd

> > > > > pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh=20

> tortillas,=3D20

> > > > whatever

> > > > > strikes your fancy

> > > > >=3D20

> > > > > Marsha

> > > > >=3D20

> > > > > p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >=20

> > >=20

> > >=20

> >=20

> > Jewell, Ph.D.

> > Campus Mass Spectrometry Facilities

> > UC

> > cmsf.ucdavis.edu

> >

>

>

>

Jewell, Ph.D.

Campus Mass Spectrometry Facilities

UC

cmsf.ucdavis.edu

[Guest guest]

>> I doubt anyone can eat 6 # of romaine

> and I wouldn't rec a lot of any greens all at once.

> I find the " fibers " in veggies are different. There

> may be allergies, especially if eaten raw.

> The other thing is cost. Six # would cost 5$ per day

> each - would make a large dent in my food dollars,

> with little energy.

> Energy is the primary ingredient which has been

> perfected for the masses, simply because of the cost

> of freight and the labor to grow it.

> Feeding a city of a million on romaine involves

> moving high cost water.

>

> Visualize what you would CARRY on a 5 day hike. You

> must have water, of course, but the food ends up

> being something like peanuts and sugar.

> Grains are a logical choice. Nuts are good but have

> a short shelf life.

>

> Regards.

>

>

> [ ] Re: Jeff's Nutritional

> Challenge

>

>

> Any suggestions regarding HOW to consume 800

> calories worth of leafy

> greens? I tried to eat greens for lunch today

> (cooked spinach and

> brussel sprouts) and I couldn't force down more

> than 200 calories

> worth.

>

>

> >

> > Here is my answer in " general " terms. I will

> post

> > specifics and a nutrient analysis later.

> >

> > Jeff

> >

> > For the diet to be CR-ON, we have to look at

> what food

> > have the most nutients per calorie, (nutrient

> > density).

> >

> > Green leafy vegetable win hands down. So, they

> would

> > need to make up a large percent of the diet to

> > accomplish this.

> >

> > So, either any one green leafy (like romaine,

> bok

> > choy, or kale) which are some of the most

> nutrient

> > dense) or a mixture of them, (raw and/or cooked)

> and

> > plug them in at around 800 calories from leafy

> greens.

> > This will almost hit the RDA of every nutrient

> other

> > than Vit D and as you mentioned Vit E and maybe

> one or

> > two others (ie selenium).

> >

> > Add in 1/4 - 1/2 oz brazil nuts or a mixture of

> any

> > nuts (include brazil nuts, sunflower seeds,

> almonds,

> > etc)) and you will cover most of the missing

> nutrients

> > like Selenium, Vit E. This is around another 45-

> 90

> > calories

> >

> > Add in some berries, around 100-200 calories

> worth to

> > add in some phytochemicals (though no RDAs yet)

> >

> > Add in one oz of lean animal protein, like

> chicken or

> > fish and you cover the B12 issue. this is

> another 50

> > calories

> >

> > You will also find that even the Omega 3s are

> adequate

> > as is the Omega 6 and 3 ratio.

> >

> > You may have to tweak it slightly, but you are

> there

> > except for Vit D so make sure you eat this while

> > sitting outside in the sun.

> >

> > Not only have you meet, you have surpassed all

> the

> > RDAs,and you have not exceeded safe limits of

> > saturated fat, hudrogenated fat, cholesterol,

> sodium

> > and refined sugars.

> >

> > So, depending on how you tweak it, you can hit

> it all

> > for around 1000-1200 calories at most.

> >

> > Then, you can add in other foods, based on

> activity

> > level, and personal preference, taste, etc and

> you win

> > on every front as long as you choose additional

> foods

> > that are not high in salt, sugar, saturated far

> or

> > cholesterol

> >

> > Regards

> > Jeff

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> I doubt anyone can eat 6 # of romaine

> and I wouldn't rec a lot of any greens all at once.

I dont disagree. And, there is lots of ways to do

this. THe purpose of the challange is to see which

foods would be the most nutrient dense overall.

While 600 or 800 calories may prove to be the best on

paper, in real life, no one is going to CR that much.

So, consuming 600-800 may not be neccessary, but

understanding their nutrient density and taking

advantage of it, will be helpful. As most CRONies

are around 1500-1800 (or more), than there is lot more

lee way for additional foods, which was one of my

points in doing the challange.

I am not going to live on 1200 calories, so if I can

meet the challange on 1200, this leaves me some lee

way to adjust foods that i enjoy more, and find easier

to eat, and still maintain the ON part of the program.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

I understand.

There are many refs that support your use of low protein, low fat, diet.

I'm just reading The China Study, . Not a good title for what looks like an excellent text with a lotta info on the relationship of protein to cancer, eg.

As far as I can tell it agrees with the tti's "The Rice Diet Solution" (a weight loss diet primarily.)

Then we have the info on low methionine intake, which ties in. So the only thing left is what can an individual do in regard to protein (talking macronutrients).

My take is to use that which by experience is 56 gm to maintain weight, 44 gms to lose at 1700 kcals, 175#. Averaging 50 gms gets me about 10%, but that's me and others may need more.

Another issue is WHICH protein and makes it very clear that animal protein is worse than plant by FAR. In fact, enough worse to make any die-hard steak eater switch to soy or grains. 's issue is that protein amplifies the growth of the cancer foci that I think we cannot avoid. He presents a very strong case.

IMO, the first order is to set my protein at <=10%, and make that mostly plant based. I have a req't I think for 8 oz milk for Ca. Of course, the fat almost takes care of itself, except I add a tbls of olive oil.

Secondly in the micros, I shoot for 4 - 5 gms of Potassium, minimize Phosphorus which is always too high, maximize Magnesium which is usually too low, maximize fiber.

What I'm saying is that in a varied diet, I always hafta add a supp like Ca, Mg, AND choline bitartrate. Just to make it easy, I add those, then I can vary the beans, rice, corn, wheat. I'm not saying that's best, but it works out the easiest day-to-day without calculating the spreadsheet every day.

Choline may be one of those RDA's often missed.

I can eyeball the calories.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: Jeff's Nutritional Challenge

>> I doubt anyone can eat 6 # of romaine> and I wouldn't rec a lot of any greens all at once.I dont disagree. And, there is lots of ways to dothis. THe purpose of the challange is to see whichfoods would be the most nutrient dense overall. While 600 or 800 calories may prove to be the best onpaper, in real life, no one is going to CR that much. So, consuming 600-800 may not be neccessary, butunderstanding their nutrient density and takingadvantage of it, will be helpful. As most CRONiesare around 1500-1800 (or more), than there is lot morelee way for additional foods, which was one of mypoints in doing the challange. I am not going to live on 1200 calories, so if I canmeet the challange on 1200, this leaves me some leeway to adjust foods that i enjoy more, and find easierto eat, and still maintain the ON part of the program.RegardsJeff

..

[Guest guest]

Rodney:

I am digging for it!! And for the proportions that got me the closest to

something reasonable...

Thanks for your patience!

M

[ ] Re: Jeff's Nutritional Challenge

Hi Marsha:

If you have done the nutrition analysis of your Stewop it would be really

helpful to know what it came up with. TYIA.

Rodney.

--- In , " Marsha Finley " <empyrean@...>

wrote:

>

> Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more helpful

answer!

>

> In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop = 1/2

soup + 1/2

> stew) with, in order of appearance:

> Water for the base

> Brown rice

> Sweet potatoes

> Beets

> Fresh tomatoes

> Fresh or Frozen green beans

> Fresh Baby carrots

> Fresh Onions, red

> Frozen Corn

> Kidney beans, pre-cooked

> Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent, added

last

>

> It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!! Ingredients

vary

> according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is always a

crowd

> pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh tortillas,

whatever

> strikes your fancy

>

> Marsha

>

> p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

>

[Guest guest]

Bill:

Since the beans are pre-cooked, the cooking time for my stewop is that of

the rice only. I think that cooking with the rice adds some thickening of

its own... And I use a ton of spinach... So it usually needs no other

thickening

I will send the proportions & analysis when I find it!! Created it about 8

years ago & the info is here on my 606 G network - someplace!!

M

[ ] Re: Jeff's Nutritional Challenge

I love stews but how do you get the thick base without prolonged cooking? I

wonder if the long cooking temperature destroys nutrients in the

ingredients? Does anyone know what vitamins are susceptible to destruction

by heat, and how high and long? Are mineral immune to heat?

Anthocyanins, phenolics, lutein, indoles, allicin, carotenoids,

bioflavonoids, lycopene etc...

Are these above goodies destroyed by heat? Jeff do you know?

bill

> >

> > Please forgive me for being cheeky - Jeff has a much more helpful

> answer!

> >

> > In the winter, I make a vegetable stewop (pronounced stoop = 1/2

> soup + 1/2

> > stew) with, in order of appearance:

> > Water for the base

> > Brown rice

> > Sweet potatoes

> > Beets

> > Fresh tomatoes

> > Fresh or Frozen green beans

> > Fresh Baby carrots

> > Fresh Onions, red

> > Frozen Corn

> > Kidney beans, pre-cooked

> > Fresh baby or Frozen Chopped spinach is the thickening agent, added

> last

> >

> > It is one of my favorite ways to get loads of stuff!! Ingredients

> vary

> > according to what is the freshest, on sale, etc... It is always a

> crowd

> > pleaser, served with some grated goat cheese, fresh tortillas,

> whatever

> > strikes your fancy

> >

> > Marsha

> >

> > p.s. My dogs BEG for this...

> >

>