RE: evidence based chiropractic blog

January 11, 2005

Dennis;

These were responses to Jay Triano, D.C., Ph.D. and the reason that my

responses showed up on OregonDCs and his emails did not may be that he

doesn't appear as an Oregon DCs member. So, even though he posted his mail

to a group of recipients that included OregonDCs, his emails did not get

past the server. Since he did post to OregonDCs and his emails are

therefore not confidential, I will post them later this evening all together

in one email so you can understand the context of my emails. I doubt that

Dr. Holder would ever post the sort of message that would provoke the

response I sent Dr. Triano. He is off base and one of those self loathing

DCs who believes our founding fathers are a bunch of frauds and we should

all be PTs. I think you'll find his emails pretty interesting.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

evidence based chiropractic blog

>

> Friends and Colleagues,

>

> Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve

around

> the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it

should or

> shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have

taken

> place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to

see, e.g.

> frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things

out.

> Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in

which to carry

> out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give

it a go by

> starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate,

so bookmark

> the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest

future for

> our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories

are

> replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically.

What do you

> think? Hope to see you at

>

> http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

>

> PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

>

> W. Snell, D.C.

> 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

> Portland, OR 97214

> Ph. 503-235-5484

> Fax 503-235-3956

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve

is to

> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

listserve

> members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

However,

> it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

or

> otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

without his or

> her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

> _____

>

January 11, 2005

Dennis et al,

I have to disagree with Les on Jay Triano; I have met Jay on several occasions and was a guest in his home while giving a talk at the Texas Back Institute. Jay spent quite a bit of time with me showing me his biomechanics lab as well as the department of TBI that is devoted to chiropractic care. I have never gotten the impression from Jay that he is anything but proud of his profession, even though he may be at odds with some of the professionals in it. I know that he has said things in the past that I have disagreed with, but I think that most of his views are in keeping with the way the majority of DCs see chiropractic and how it fits in the scheme of healthcare.

So I am in a position where I know Les and what he is doing with his work (I have heard some really great things from docs who have studied with him) and I know Jay's work and I like and admire both of them. I don't see either viewpoint as being mutually exclusive in our profession.

Freeman evidence based chiropractic blog> > > > Friends and Colleagues,> > Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around> the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or> shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken> place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g.> frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out.> Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry> out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by> starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark> the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for> our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are> replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you> think? Hope to see you at > > http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/> > PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!> > W. Snell, D.C. > 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland, OR 97214 > Ph. 503-235-5484 > Fax 503-235-3956> > > > OregonDCs rules:> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve> members will be tolerated.> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,> it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or> otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or> her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > _____ > >

January 11, 2005

;

Well, sure

he seemed like a nice guy to you. You are a held in great esteem by all of us

on either side of the vitalistic/materialistic divide. I’m sure he’d

like to behave in a way to make you feel like, “Gee, that Triano guy

seemed pretty OK to me.” Here is the problem I have with guys like

that. Whereas I and everyone I know who takes the more vitalistic road have no

axe to grind with the mechanistic/PT model chiros, people like Triano take a

posture of unwarranted superiority and treat the rest of us who are coherent to

the principles of chiropractic as if we were frauds and charlatans. You know,

I was a pretty good student, valedictorian of one of the biggest classes to go

through WSCC, graduated summa cum laude, and have been a responsible member of

the chiropractic community. This putz is going to tell me I don’t know

what I’m talking about? To have a guy like this make these assertions

about my work and other vitalistic approaches is intolerable! I won’t

stand for it and I’ll be very candid about criticizing a guy like

Triano. He and those like him are the aggressors. People like our own Rothman

and Freedland who put themselves up as the only honest DCs and collaborate with

the Barrett bunch on the Quackbusters sight against any DC who uses muscle

testing, homeopathics, etc. They are the ones desperate to draw the “us

versus them” line. Vitalistic DCs don’t go around looking to pick

fights with guys like that. I would prefer an attitude of benign neglect toward

them but they are the storm troopers of our profession. They are the Nazi

bastards who would gladly break down the doors of clinics practicing vitalistic

chiropractic and drag us in front of our licensing boards to disenfranchise

us. You know it and I know it too. You and Herb put up with your share of

that crap and you guys didn’t blink either. Good on ya!

I find it interesting

that he never responded to the question I posted twice. What is taught in

chiropractic colleges that was ever developed in a chiropractic college and

subjected to the sort of absurd trials he thinks are appropriate.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Dr.

Freeman [mailto:drmfreeman@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

5:44 PM

Subject: RE: Re:

evidence based chiropractic blog

Dennis et al,

I have to disagree with Les on Jay Triano; I have met Jay on several

occasions and was a guest in his home while giving a talk at the Texas Back

Institute. Jay spent quite a bit of time with me showing me his biomechanics

lab as well as the department of TBI that is devoted to chiropractic care. I

have never gotten the impression from Jay that he is anything but proud of his

profession, even though he may be at odds with some of the professionals in it.

I know that he has said things in the past that I have disagreed with, but I

think that most of his views are in keeping with the way the majority of DCs

see chiropractic and how it fits in the scheme of healthcare.

So I am in a position where I know Les and what he is doing with his

work (I have heard some really great things from docs who have studied with

him) and I know Jay's work and I like and admire both of them. I don't see

either viewpoint as being mutually exclusive in our profession.

Freeman

evidence based

chiropractic blog

>

> Friends and Colleagues,

>

> Recently, I have found myself in several

discussions which revolve

around

> the central notion of what chiropractic

is/isn't and what it

should or

> shouldn't become. Many of the forums

that these discussions have

taken

> place in have not allowed the kind of

discussion I would like to

see, e.g.

> frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub

trying to figure things

out.

> Blogging is something brand new to me and may

be the venue in

which to carry

> out these types of conversations. So I

thought I'd like to give

it a go by

> starting a blog. These things only work

when folks participate,

so bookmark

> the link below, log on and say your

piece. I see the brightest

future for

> our profession in a world where archaic,

quasi-religous theories

are

> replaced by what works, and what can be

proven scientifically.

What do you

> think? Hope to see you at

>

> http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

>

> PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

>

> W. Snell, D.C.

> 3343

SE Hawthorne Blvd.

> Portland,

OR 97214

> Ph. 503-235-5484

> Fax 503-235-3956

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the

purpose of the listserve

is to

> foster communication and collegiality. No

personal attacks on

listserve

> members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first

and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail

could end up anywhere.

However,

> it is against the rules of the listserve to

copy, print, forward,

or

> otherwise distribute correspondence written

by another member

without his or

> her consent, unless all personal identifiers

have been removed.

>

> _____

>

January 11, 2005

Thanks, ! Someone who understands there is an ART to all of this. Yes,

we need the science...but the trick is learning to know the science and

realize that the person in front of you may or may not FIT the science. If

the patient doens't fit the science, do you tell him to go away ... or " it's

all in his head " ? NO, you take what you can and address the pateint's

problem on the level of the problem. As Willard points out, that are many

times in our profession when you have to punt with something that hasn't yet

be proven by the so called gold standard of random double blind controlled

study. Just because it hasn''t been proven, doens't mean the procedure

won't work.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC

Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon

59 Santa Clara St.,

Eugene, Oregon, 97404

541-689-0935

>From: " Colwell " <johncc48@...>

> " ' Snell' " <drpsnell@...>, <drcroft@...>,

><robertdolton@...>, <ngoodwill4722@...>,

><softissu@...>, <thyde444@...>,

><alicekimdc@...>, < >,

><flipsnell@...>, <kajukenbouk@...>,

><jtriano@...>, " S. Feinberg, D.C. "

><feinberg@...>

>Subject: Re: evidence based chiropractic blog

>Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:28:43 -0800

>

>Dear Phil,

> I finally read your blog sheet after the heat from 3 or 4 listserve

>emails hit my screen today! PHEW, you sure stirred up a hornets nest.

>However, I remember the same questions and reasonable clinical scepticism

>when I first encountered Applied Kinesiology. I submit that a 'healthy

>sceptic' considers the evidence and the 'unhealthy sceptic' knows he/she

>is right despite the facts.

> Unfortunately, I think the hornets have a good point that you need to

>consider. Evidence based chiropractic should be a practice that seeks

>evidence, considers the validity of evidence and applies that information

>to the ART of practicing Chiropractic. Where 'scientists' have gotten in

>trouble intelectually for 2000 years is by being stuck in a paradigm and

>NOT considering or being able to interpret new evidence because of their

>own viewpoint.

> I have used muscle response testing daily for 27 years as a

>confirmatory (not diagnostic) tool and find it is reliable most of the

>time. It may bother you but I'm still an intellectually active DC willing

>to let the profession continue to grow and explore the drugless

>'innate/intuitive' based therapies. If we dont do this we'll be 'Chiro

>Techs' with limited practices in the PT departments and basements of

>hospitals. All that for the sake of our place in the insurance game and a

>guaranteed spot and the HMO's Christmas dinner.

>

> Colwell, DC

> evidence based chiropractic blog

>

> Friends and Colleagues,

>

> Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve

>around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should

>or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken

>place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g.

>frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out.

>Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to

>carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a

>go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so

>bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest

>future for our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories

>are replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do

>you think? Hope to see you at

>

> http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

>

> PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

>

> W. Snell, D.C.

> 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

> Portland, OR 97214

> Ph. 503-235-5484

> Fax 503-235-3956

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

>foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

>members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

>However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

>or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without

>his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

>foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

>members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

>However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

>or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without

>his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

January 12, 2005

Sunny;

Would that it were a matter of punting. We should all realize that we are

part of a profession whose entire basis has not been proven by double blind

studies and the sort of bogus metric of truth that has driven the multi

trillion dollar drug and surgery business that gives us arthritis drugs that

blow your bain and heart out and drugs to prevent hot flashes that give you

cancer and heart disease. Punt? Punt?? Punt???

Maybe I'm a little worked up today. Maybe I've had it up to here with

horseshit. Maybe I should wait until tomorrow to make this post, but that

would be somebody else.

The fact is that too much of the profession is buying into a bogus model of

healthcare that has been foisted on an unsuspecting and naïve public by

people who sold us a multi trillion dollar fraud. Too many of us are all

too willing to don the mantel of shame for being a chiropractor and shuffle

our feet and step and fetch it. This profession was founded on a principle

whose very existence was founded on what is reckoned to be a lie by people

like Triano and others like him. I don't want to mention names twice. Too

many people are chickenshit on this issue. If someone doesn't like to word,

it's too damn bad. It's time to stand up and be counted. You don't have to

want this profession to be expropriated by a bunch of morons who don't

understand what being a chiropractor is all about. All you have to do is

be silent. :They came for the ones...and I was silent. Then they came for

me! " I'm fully willing to live in harmony with people with a D.C. license

who want to rub and ultrasound wand or microcurrent electrode all day, if

the patient shows improvement. I' m willing to live with people who want to

send every patient home with hundreds of dollars of supplements, if the

patient shows improvement. I'm willing to share my profession with people

who think all you have to do is adjust C1 in just the right way, if the

patient demonstrates improvement and exercises the free will of choosing

that method of care. What I can't abide is the self righteous bastards

that would take away the right of those of us with better chiropractic

college credentials than they ever earned to stand on some irrelevant soap

box contrived of phony pseudoscience claptrap and claim that we are

unscientific because human beings don't fit into the synthetic criteria of

double blind studies.

I've totally had it for today!!! Damn, I hope no solicitor comes to my

door tonight. They'll get more than they bargained for #;^)

S. Feinberg, D.C.

Re: evidence based chiropractic blog