RE: evidence based chiropractic blog

[Guest guest]

:

checked out your "blog" site and I would ask you a couple of questions:

#1 Why would you post your "suspicions" of quackery type involvement regarding muscle testing as a diagnostic tool? There are accepted standards in this state for kinesiological testing, numerous studies have been done at universities here in the US, such as University of Utah, Eastern Washington State University.....etc and there are several highly successful and beneficial techniques that utilize this methodology, Versendahl and our own Feinberg.

#2 Why do you feel that "evidence based" or that which can be scientifically proven is what should be driving Chiropractic? Pharmacueticals are "evidence based" and yet this country spends 75 Billion, did I say billion, dollars a year on these "evidence based" products and then 76, yes folks, 76 billion dollars to clean up the messes the 75 billion made.

#3 Why do you feel that those of us "ancient dinosaurs" that know the priniciples of Chiropractic are for real are some kind of religious cult?

#4 How come bumblebees fly?

To my knowledge Chiropractic and Chiropractors have always attempted, as a rule, to utilize protocols that work. Those archaic quasi religious folk that went to jail so that you could have the opportunity to practice the very thing you disdain were, as a rule competent in the research of what worked and what didn't. I cannot imagine that Dr Gonstead, for instance, had thousands of patient's healed secondary to his religious status. Is this forum you are suggesting, a platform for your narrow, judgemental view of the profession to be publicly aired or a real discussion of where DC's believe we should go?

In Chiropractic

Danno

evidence based chiropractic blog

Friends and Colleagues,

Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C. 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr.

Phil;

Let me do

you a favor and before you embarrass yourself too much by including well

documented and clinically efficient procedures you don’t understand in

your otherwise valiant attempt to save the world from false prophets. I

have attached a PDF document discussing the historical context, axioms of, and

muscle response testing, which may inform you to some small extent. I

would also like to direct you to a number of works written by some of the best

scientific minds of the past 100 years in the “hard sciences” that

support my work and some other protocols that fall under the banner of “energetic

medicine”. Two that you could start with would be the renowned late

physicist Bohm, Ph.D. professor emitus at London University,

“Unfolding Meaning”, and “Wholeness and the Implicate Order”

published by Routledge Press, and biologist Rupert Sheldrake, Ph.D. “The

Presence of the Past” and “The Sense of Being Stared At, and Other

Aspects of the Extended Mind”. You may not be familiar with them,

but they are world famous scientists, people who are taken vary seriously by

the real academic community.

You might

take a look on my website and see imaging studies documenting a medical first

for NMT: The Feinberg Technique. That is the complete resolution of four

severe cavitations. To my knowledge, this is the first demonstrated

non-surgical healing of a dental cavitation in medical history. Perhaps

you can find evidence of others? The is a group of 15 patients with such

cavitations now in a study that is being documented with pre and post Cavitat

scans. In case you are also unfamiliar with that technology, you could

read a little on this 98% accurate FDA approved imaging technology for necrotic

bone at http://cavitatmedtech.homestead.com/.

I’m not sure what bone one would “pop” to create such a

magnificent outcome? How about you?

Just in

case that isn’t enough to make you think that perhaps you might not be so

much smarter than D.D. Palmer, the founder of our profession who described “Innate

Intelligence”, maybe the study on my websight objectively demonstrating

the resolution a case representing the highest known blood viscosity in one of

my patients, with a thrombogenic potential 43 times the normal to a blood

viscosity below the age adjusted average in about 2 months with NMT and low

doses of enzyme. In case you don’t know much about blood viscosity and

its relationship to cardiovascular disease, you could prepare yourself for an

intelligent dialog by reading material on http://www.rheologics.com/

Perhaps some of your patients would be interested in having their

blood pressure reduced and the health of their hearts improved without drugs or

other invasive procedures.

Perhaps you

could actually read some of the material about which you make these derogatory,

disparaging, and insinuating remarks and we could then continue the

discussion. No one wants to enter a battle of wits unarmed! I am

more than eager to shed a little light wherever I can. I’m here to

help.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

Founder

NeuroModulation Techinque

From: Snell

[mailto:drpsnell@...]

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005

1:15 PM

drcroft@...;

robertdolton@...; ngoodwill4722@...; softissu@...;

thyde444@...; alicekimdc@...; ;

flipsnell@...; kajukenbouk@...; jtriano@...

Subject: evidence

based chiropractic blog

Friends

and Colleagues,

Recently,

I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central

notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't

become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in

have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk

over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is

something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these

types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting

a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the

link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our

profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by

what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you

think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Snell

[mailto:drpsnell@...]

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005

1:15 PM

drcroft@...;

robertdolton@...; ngoodwill4722@...; softissu@...;

thyde444@...; alicekimdc@...; ;

flipsnell@...; kajukenbouk@...; jtriano@...

Subject: evidence

based chiropractic blog

Friends

and Colleagues,

Recently,

I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central

notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't

become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in

have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk

over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is

something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these

types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting

a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the

link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our

profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by

what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you

think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much to all of you for your candor. Its always interesting to see how different people respond when their belief systems are challenged. I started up the blog thingy, because I felt it would be a better forum to chat about this stuff for those who are interested. I highly suspect that most on this listserve could give 2 rips about my personal tilting at windmills. So if you want to discuss this stuff, let's go there.

Les, thanks for the references, that's great. I really do very much look forward to reading them. I do wish that you could engage me personally without attacking my character though.

Ron, I have visited offices, and continue to. Sometime back, you told a young doc on the listserve that, like rival males to the alpha males on those PBS nature shows, he needed to suck it up until it was his turn to get on the full panels out there. I guess this is part of what I do with all that extra time.

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C. 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956>From: " D Beebe, D.C." <res0btan@...> ><drcroft@...>,<robertdolton@...>,<ngoodwill4722@...>,<softissu@...>,<thyde444@...>,<alicekimdc@...>,< >,<flipsnell@...>,<kajukenbouk@...>,<jtriano@...>," Snell" <drpsnell@...> >Subject: Re: evidence based chiropractic blog >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:43:07 -0800 > >: > >checked out your "blog" site and I would ask you a couple of questions: > >#1 Why would you post your "suspicions" of quackery type involvement regarding muscle testing as a diagnostic tool? There are accepted standards in this state for kinesiological testing, numerous studies have been done at universities here in the US, such as University of Utah, Eastern Washington State University.....etc and there are several highly successful and beneficial techniques that utilize this methodology, Versendahl and our own Feinberg. > >#2 Why do you feel that "evidence based" or that which can be scientifically proven is what should be driving Chiropractic? Pharmacueticals are "evidence based" and yet this country spends 75 Billion, did I say billion, dollars a year on these "evidence based" products and then 76, yes folks, 76 billion dollars to clean up the messes the 75 billion made. > >#3 Why do you feel that those of us "ancient dinosaurs" that know the priniciples of Chiropractic are for real are some kind of religious cult? > >#4 How come bumblebees fly? > >To my knowledge Chiropractic and Chiropractors have always attempted, as a rule, to utilize protocols that work. Those archaic quasi religious folk that went to jail so that you could have the opportunity to practice the very thing you disdain were, as a rule competent in the research of what worked and what didn't. I cannot imagine that Dr Gonstead, for instance, had thousands of patient's healed secondary to his religious status. Is this forum you are suggesting, a platform for your narrow, judgemental view of the profession to be publicly aired or a real discussion of where DC's believe we should go? > >In Chiropractic > >Danno > > > > evidence based chiropractic blog > > > Friends and Colleagues, > > Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at > > http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/ > > > > > PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. > 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland, OR 97214 > Ph. 503-235-5484 > Fax 503-235-3956 > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

[Guest guest]

Phil

I am simply amazed. You post narrow, judgemental views of your personal perspective of Chiropractic and certain Chiropractic tools, ie Kinesiology, calling groups of DC's who have seen the validity of Innate intelligence and the priniciples of Chiropractic, quasi religious and then hurtfully suggest that Dr Feinberg is being a big bully.

You propogate the medical heresy that Chiropractic is quasi religious and cultish all the while protesting that you are one of those

"good and sensible" DC's that don't utilize quackery and you want to do this in a public forum to all health professionals as an "expert" in your field. Any of the rest of us DC's who utilize muscle testing as a diagnostic tool are suspect.

The worst of it is that you do not even realize how insulting you really are.

Amazing..... the name is Dan not Ron by the way.

Based on your belief system I would suspect that you will continue to have ample time on your hand.

evidence based chiropractic blog > > > Friends and Colleagues, > > Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at > > http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/ > > > > > PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. > 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland, OR 97214 > Ph. 503-235-5484 > Fax 503-235-3956 > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

[Guest guest]

Dear Phil,

I finally read your blog sheet after the heat from 3 or 4 listserve emails hit my screen today! PHEW, you sure stirred up a hornets nest. However, I remember the same questions and reasonable clinical scepticism when I first encountered Applied Kinesiology. I submit that a 'healthy sceptic' considers the evidence and the 'unhealthy sceptic' knows he/she is right despite the facts.

Unfortunately, I think the hornets have a good point that you need to consider. Evidence based chiropractic should be a practice that seeks evidence, considers the validity of evidence and applies that information to the ART of practicing Chiropractic. Where 'scientists' have gotten in trouble intelectually for 2000 years is by being stuck in a paradigm and NOT considering or being able to interpret new evidence because of their own viewpoint.

I have used muscle response testing daily for 27 years as a confirmatory (not diagnostic) tool and find it is reliable most of the time. It may bother you but I'm still an intellectually active DC willing to let the profession continue to grow and explore the drugless 'innate/intuitive' based therapies. If we dont do this we'll be 'Chiro Techs' with limited practices in the PT departments and basements of hospitals. All that for the sake of our place in the insurance game and a guaranteed spot and the HMO's Christmas dinner.

Colwell, DC

RE: evidence based chiropractic blog

Dear Dr. Phil;

Let me do you a favor and before you embarrass yourself too much by including well documented and clinically efficient procedures you don’t understand in your otherwise valiant attempt to save the world from false prophets. I have attached a PDF document discussing the historical context, axioms of, and muscle response testing, which may inform you to some small extent. I would also like to direct you to a number of works written by some of the best scientific minds of the past 100 years in the “hard sciences” that support my work and some other protocols that fall under the banner of “energetic medicine”. Two that you could start with would be the renowned late physicist Bohm, Ph.D. professor emitus at London University, “Unfolding Meaning”, and “Wholeness and the Implicate Order” published by Routledge Press, and biologist Rupert Sheldrake, Ph.D. “The Presence of the Past” and “The Sense of Being Stared At, and Other Aspects of the Extended Mind”. You may not be familiar with them, but they are world famous scientists, people who are taken vary seriously by the real academic community.

You might take a look on my website and see imaging studies documenting a medical first for NMT: The Feinberg Technique. That is the complete resolution of four severe cavitations. To my knowledge, this is the first demonstrated non-surgical healing of a dental cavitation in medical history. Perhaps you can find evidence of others? The is a group of 15 patients with such cavitations now in a study that is being documented with pre and post Cavitat scans. In case you are also unfamiliar with that technology, you could read a little on this 98% accurate FDA approved imaging technology for necrotic bone at http://cavitatmedtech.homestead.com/. I’m not sure what bone one would “pop” to create such a magnificent outcome? How about you?

Just in case that isn’t enough to make you think that perhaps you might not be so much smarter than D.D. Palmer, the founder of our profession who described “Innate Intelligence”, maybe the study on my websight objectively demonstrating the resolution a case representing the highest known blood viscosity in one of my patients, with a thrombogenic potential 43 times the normal to a blood viscosity below the age adjusted average in about 2 months with NMT and low doses of enzyme. In case you don’t know much about blood viscosity and its relationship to cardiovascular disease, you could prepare yourself for an intelligent dialog by reading material on http://www.rheologics.com/ Perhaps some of your patients would be interested in having their blood pressure reduced and the health of their hearts improved without drugs or other invasive procedures.

Perhaps you could actually read some of the material about which you make these derogatory, disparaging, and insinuating remarks and we could then continue the discussion. No one wants to enter a battle of wits unarmed! I am more than eager to shed a little light wherever I can. I’m here to help.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

Founder NeuroModulation Techinque

From: Snell [mailto:drpsnell@...] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:15 PMdrcroft@...; robertdolton@...; ngoodwill4722@...; softissu@...; thyde444@...; alicekimdc@...; ; flipsnell@...; kajukenbouk@...; jtriano@...Subject: evidence based chiropractic blog

Friends and Colleagues,

Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C. 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

S. Feinberg, D.C.

From: Snell [mailto:drpsnell@...] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:15 PMdrcroft@...; robertdolton@...; ngoodwill4722@...; softissu@...; thyde444@...; alicekimdc@...; ; flipsnell@...; kajukenbouk@...; jtriano@...Subject: evidence based chiropractic blog

Friends and Colleagues,

Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C. 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/10/2005 10:29:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, johncc48@... writes:

reasonable clinical scepticism when I first encountered Applied Kinesiology.

I have always had a bit of a medical stance towards health care. I always sort of sniggered about AK. There are so many variables affecting it. I mean I was 100% sure that the doctors subconcious mindset was a big influence - without a digital meter (hand held dynamometer) there is no accuracy for how hardd the doctor is pushing. I mean if he has some bottles of vitamin C about to expire in the back I was betting that most patients would test out as needing more vitamin C.

Then a year ago I went to a fellow chiropractor for an adjustment. I had a shoulder injury - diagnosed on MRI as a 11 X 17 mm tear of my supraspinatus and a tear of the subscapularis plus a glenoid labrum tear. Hurt like the dickens. The chiropractor I go to is also into AK and wanted to do that. I humored him and let him to it so I could get a good adjustment. He tested me and told me I needed phosphatidyl choline, gave me some to take after biting into it and then tested me again - absolutely no pain. It was the weirdest thing. I got some PC and took it at home and the pain was gone.

I have him see my wife who was run over by a car years ago. I trust him and respect him immensely.

The same thing happened with acupuncture years ago. Total poopoo in my opinion. But when my wife was having seizures every month at least for many years after being run over and chiropractic had done all it could as far as I knew, and medicine with all its CT scans etc had done all it could do and she still had seizures we tried acupuncture as a last resort - no more seizures in 15 years. SO I became acupuncture certified. I still wait for good research proving how or even that it really works. When my wife had a problem I was not going to wait for the research to prove it works, I wanted somethign that worked NOW

When I am done with my current schoolwork I am involved in now I plan to learn AK and will wait for the research that proves it.

Anglen

[Guest guest]

I just

thought that Dr. Colwell’s comment was so brilliant that I wanted to see

it come through one more time:

“Evidence based chiropractic should be a practice that

seeks evidence, considers the validity of evidence and applies that information

to the ART of practicing Chiropractic. Where 'scientists' have gotten in trouble

intellectually for 2000 years is by being stuck in a paradigm and NOT

considering or being able to interpret new evidence because of their own

viewpoint.”

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Colwell

[mailto:johncc48@...]

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005

9:29 PM

' Snell';

drcroft@...; robertdolton@...; ngoodwill4722@...;

softissu@...; thyde444@...; alicekimdc@...;

; flipsnell@...; kajukenbouk@...;

jtriano@...; S. Feinberg, D.C.

Subject: Re: evidence

based chiropractic blog

Dear Phil,

I finally read your blog sheet

after the heat from 3 or 4 listserve emails hit my screen today! PHEW,

you sure stirred up a hornets nest. However, I remember the same questions and

reasonable clinical scepticism when I first encountered Applied Kinesiology. I

submit that a 'healthy sceptic' considers the evidence and the 'unhealthy

sceptic' knows he/she is right despite the facts.

Unfortunately, I think the hornets have a

good point that you need to consider. Evidence based chiropractic should

be a practice that seeks evidence, considers the validity of evidence and

applies that information to the ART of practicing Chiropractic. Where

'scientists' have gotten in trouble intelectually for 2000 years is by being

stuck in a paradigm and NOT considering or being able to interpret new evidence

because of their own viewpoint.

I have used muscle response testing daily

for 27 years as a confirmatory (not diagnostic) tool and find it is

reliable most of the time. It may bother you but I'm still an intellectually

active DC willing to let the profession continue to grow and explore the

drugless 'innate/intuitive' based therapies. If we dont do this we'll be 'Chiro

Techs' with limited practices in the PT departments and basements of hospitals.

All that for the sake of our place in the insurance game and a guaranteed spot

and the HMO's Christmas dinner.

Colwell, DC

evidence

based chiropractic blog

Friends

and Colleagues,

Recently,

I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central

notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't

become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in

have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk

over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is

something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these

types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting

a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the

link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our

profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by

what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you

think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last

name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

[Guest guest]

Dear Jay;

Perhaps you

didn’t actually read the material that was offered to you. If you had

done so, you would already know that we are involved in such studies with NMT.

There is the cavitation study that I described that will be published later

this year and a study that is being done in a residential psychiatric hospital

in Singapore on NMT with severely autistic children, the interim results for

which are showing incredible improvement by standard measurements of the

condition and which is being done by a Ph.D. psychologist.

In case you

aren’t familiar with the history of your profession, nothing in it ever

came out of one of our colleges. The only clinical methods in chiropractic

came out of the field. NMT is following the course that it should. We are

doing the clinical studies and more will be done as we move along. That is how

this profession was created. Let’s be real.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Dr. Jay Triano

[mailto:jtriano@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

6:19 AM

S. Feinberg, D.C.;

Snell; drcroft@...; robertdolton@...;

ngoodwill4722@...; softissu@...; thyde444@...; alicekimdc@...;

; flipsnell@...; kajukenbouk@...

Subject: RE: evidence

based chiropractic blog

A little self-serving never hurts!

Sadly, publications on individual websites

sans the process of science and review do not garner socioeconomic or health

policy trust and legitimacy. Too bad that such highly interesting results were

not offered up to the betterment of the world through accepted modes of peer

reveiw and publication.

JT

evidence

based chiropractic blog

Friends

and Colleagues,

Recently,

I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central

notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't

become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in

have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk

over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is

something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these

types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting

a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the

link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our

profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what

works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think?

Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

[Guest guest]

I am fascinated by this discussion, and yes I am doing it on the

oregondc net, not the blog,

I am attaching my recent Dynamic Chiro article, it addresses these same

issues,

I believe that we can live in both the scientific world, and in the

vitalistic, intuitive world

I believe that chiropractic is both an art and a science.

The interventions that I make, the clinical decisions that I make

daily, are way too complex to be properly tested by the usual, single

clinical input for multiple people with the same condition type of

scientific study.

I do not know the answer of how to test "real world" chiropractic, but

some of the broader studies have attempted to do so.

In my article, there are a couple of pictures from Emoto's site,

messages from water, this is a fascinating phenomena, a look at how our

thoughts affect a physical object, water. It is another reinforcement

for my belief in the power of intention, that our thoughts and our

intent have real effects on biological systems. How do we have an

evidence based medicine that includes this.

D Beebe, D.C. wrote:

Phil

I am simply amazed. You post narrow,

judgemental views of your personal perspective of Chiropractic and

certain Chiropractic tools, ie Kinesiology, calling groups of DC's who

have seen the validity of Innate intelligence and the priniciples of

Chiropractic, quasi religious and then hurtfully suggest that Dr

Feinberg is being a big bully.

You propogate the medical heresy

that Chiropractic is quasi religious and cultish all the while

protesting that you are one of those

"good and sensible" DC's that don't

utilize quackery and you want to do this in a public forum to all

health professionals as an "expert" in your field. Any of the rest of

us DC's who utilize muscle testing as a diagnostic tool are suspect.

The worst of it is that you do not

even realize how insulting you really are.

Amazing..... the name is Dan not Ron

by the way.

Based on your belief system I would

suspect that you will continue to have ample time on your hand.

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Snell

To:

Sent:

Monday, January 10, 2005 6:44 PM

Subject:

Re: evidence based chiropractic blog

Thanks so much to all of you for your candor. Its always

interesting to see how different people respond when their belief

systems are challenged. I started up the blog thingy, because I felt

it would be a better forum to chat about this stuff for those who are

interested. I highly suspect that most on this listserve could give 2

rips about my personal tilting at windmills. So if you want to discuss

this stuff, let's go there.

Les, thanks for the references, that's great. I really do very

much look forward to reading them. I do wish that you could engage me

personally without attacking my character though.

Ron, I have visited offices, and continue to. Sometime back,

you told a young doc on the listserve that, like rival males to the

alpha males on those PBS nature shows, he needed to suck it up until it

was his turn to get on the full panels out there. I guess this is part

of what I do with all that extra time.

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W.

Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR 97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

>From: " D Beebe, D.C." <res0btan@...> >To:

<drcroft@...>,<robertdolton@...>,<ngoodwill4722@...>,<softissu@...>,<thyde444@...>,<alicekimdc@...>,< >,<flipsnell@...>,<kajukenbouk@...>,<jtriano@...>,"

Snell" <drpsnell@...> >Subject: Re:

evidence based chiropractic blog >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:43:07

-0800 > >: > >checked out your "blog" site and I

would ask you a couple of questions: > >#1 Why would you post

your "suspicions" of quackery type involvement regarding muscle testing

as a diagnostic tool? There are accepted standards in this state for

kinesiological testing, numerous studies have been done at universities

here in the US, such as University of Utah, Eastern Washington State

University.....etc and there are several highly successful and

beneficial techniques that utilize this methodology, Versendahl and our

own Feinberg. > >#2 Why do you feel that "evidence based" or that

which can be scientifically proven is what should be driving

Chiropractic? Pharmacueticals are "evidence based" and yet this country

spends 75 Billion, did I say billion, dollars a year on these "evidence

based" products and then 76, yes folks, 76 billion dollars to clean up

the messes the 75 billion made. > >#3 Why do you feel that those

of us "ancient dinosaurs" that know the priniciples of Chiropractic are

for real are some kind of religious cult? > >#4 How come

bumblebees fly? > >To my knowledge Chiropractic and Chiropractors

have always attempted, as a rule, to utilize protocols that work. Those

archaic quasi religious folk that went to jail so that you could have

the opportunity to practice the very thing you disdain were, as a rule

competent in the research of what worked and what didn't. I cannot

imagine that Dr Gonstead, for instance, had thousands of patient's

healed secondary to his religious status. Is this forum you are

suggesting, a platform for your narrow, judgemental view of the

profession to be publicly aired or a real discussion of where DC's

believe we should go? > >In Chiropractic > >Danno > >

> >

evidence based chiropractic blog > > > Friends and Colleagues,

> > Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which

revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and

what it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these

discussions have taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion

I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub

trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me and

may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So

I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things

only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on

and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our profession in a

world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what

works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope

to see you at > > http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/ > > >

> > PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C.

> 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland, OR 97214 > Ph.

503-235-5484 > Fax 503-235-3956 > > > > OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve

is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

listserve members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails

with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure;

your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of

the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute

correspondence written by another member without his or her consent,

unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

OR DCs,

FYI…

Check out this conference on energy

medicine…right here in River

City.

http://www.onemedicineinstitute.org/sched.html

C Simpson

A. Simpson, DC, DABCO

Vice President, Medical Director

Complementary Healthcare Plans, Inc

6600

SW 105th Avenue, Suite 115

Beaverton, OR

97008

503-619-2041

From: Marc Heller, DC [mailto:mheller@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

7:13 AM

D Beebe, D.C.

Cc: ;

Snell

Subject: Re: evidence

based chiropractic blog

I am fascinated by this discussion, and yes I am doing

it on the oregondc net, not the blog,

I am attaching my recent Dynamic Chiro article, it addresses these same issues,

I believe that we can live in both the scientific world, and in the vitalistic,

intuitive world

I believe that chiropractic is both an art and a science.

The interventions that I make, the clinical decisions that I make daily, are

way too complex to be properly tested by the usual, single clinical input for

multiple people with the same condition type of scientific study.

I do not know the answer of how to test " real world " chiropractic,

but some of the broader studies have attempted to do so.

In my article, there are a couple of pictures from Emoto's site, messages

from water, this is a fascinating phenomena, a look at how our thoughts affect

a physical object, water. It is another reinforcement for my belief in the

power of intention, that our thoughts and our intent have real effects on

biological systems. How do we have an evidence based medicine that includes

this.

D Beebe, D.C. wrote:

Phil

I am simply amazed. You post narrow, judgemental

views of your personal perspective of Chiropractic and certain Chiropractic

tools, ie Kinesiology, calling groups of DC's who have seen the validity

of Innate intelligence and the priniciples of Chiropractic, quasi

religious and then hurtfully suggest that Dr Feinberg is being a big

bully.

You propogate the medical heresy that Chiropractic is

quasi religious and cultish all the while protesting that you are one of those

" good and sensible " DC's that don't utilize

quackery and you want to do this in a public forum to all health

professionals as an " expert " in your field. Any of the rest of

us DC's who utilize muscle testing as a diagnostic tool are suspect.

The worst of it is that you do not even realize how

insulting you really are.

Amazing..... the name is Dan not Ron by the way.

Based on your belief system I would suspect that you

will continue to have ample time on your hand.

evidence based

chiropractic blog > > > Friends and Colleagues, > > Recently, I

have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central

notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become.

Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed

the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at

a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me

and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So I

thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work

when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece.

I see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic,

quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be proven

scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at > > http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/ > >

> > > PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. >

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland, OR 97214 > Ph. 503-235-5484 > Fax

503-235-3956 > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence

professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and

collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. >

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > 3. The

listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is

against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise

distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent,

unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Chuck

Colweell.DC

evidence based chiropractic blog > > > Friends and Colleagues, > > Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at > > http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/ > > > > > PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. > 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland, OR 97214 > Ph. 503-235-5484 > Fax 503-235-3956 > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

[Guest guest]

Okay now....just why DID the chicken cross the road??

> Phil

>

> I am simply amazed. You post narrow, judgemental views of your personal

> perspective of Chiropractic and certain Chiropractic tools, ie

> Kinesiology, calling groups of DC's who have seen the validity of

> Innate intelligence and the priniciples of Chiropractic, quasi religious

> and then hurtfully suggest that Dr Feinberg is being a big bully.

>

> You propogate the medical heresy that Chiropractic is quasi religious

> and cultish all the while protesting that you are one of those " good

> and sensible " DC's that don't utilize quackery and you want to do this

> in a public forum to all health professionals as an " expert " in your

> field. Any of the rest of us DC's who utilize muscle testing as a

> diagnostic tool are suspect.

>

> The worst of it is that you do not even realize how insulting you really

> are.

>

> Amazing..... the name is Dan not Ron by the way.

>

> Based on your belief system I would suspect that you will continue to

> have ample time on your hand.

>

> evidence based chiropractic

> blog > > > Friends and Colleagues, > > Recently, I have found myself

> in several discussions which revolve around the central notion of

> what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become.

> Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have

> not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank

> talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out.

> Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which

> to carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to

> give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks

> participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I

> see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic,

> quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be

> proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at > >

> http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/ > > > > > PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > >

> W. Snell, D.C. > 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland, OR 97214

>> Ph. 503-235-5484 > Fax 503-235-3956 > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1.

> Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> listserve members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails

> with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your

> e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the

> listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute

> correspondence written by another member without his or her consent,

> unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > >

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the input Marc. I share your desire for a better union of the scientific and vitalistic paradigms. Years ago, I had a discussion with my logic professor, who was also a devout Catholic, about how he reconciled his faith in the eyes of Aristotilean logic. He responded that while logic provides a tool for clearer thinking, it doesn't necessarily "get you across the bridge" to the kernels of human experience. He felt there was no mutual exclusion.

Similarly, such vitalistic underpinnings can exist in a science minded doctor. Indeed, they do in me daily. I break, however, with some who have written here when I see rational query break down, and parroting of professional and personal dogma take over. I also choose to frame any of the things I do that don't have the scientific rigor of randomized, double blinding, to support them, as theoretical. I don't have a method to promote, a technique to sell, nor desire to convert the masses with axioms, old wive's tales, and effective sales techniques.

I want to understand things a bit better, a simple honest desire. It is thru that desire to know that I have raised these questions. As I said to my office partner last night, this rug we walk on daily needs to be taken out back and beaten to clean it up a bit.

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C. 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956>From: "Marc Heller, DC" <mheller@...> >" D Beebe, D.C." <res0btan@...> >CC: , Snell <drpsnell@...> >Subject: Re: evidence based chiropractic blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:44 -0800 > ><< DC- >> ><< mheller.vcf >>

[Guest guest]

Phil-

As has already been said. you have stirred up a hornets nest! I too am skeptical of claims and want answers, but I'm also curious and eager to learn. Like you, I'm bothered by the theology of Chiropractic, the "I believe" aspect. I'm of the opinion that if you want a belief practice you should function like other religions and ask for offerings instead of charge for a service! I'm intrigued by "energy medicine", which is a widely encompassing term, and I need to follow up on Chuck's post regarding the seminar/meeting. The traditional chiropractic adjustment has many effects on the body, but in practice is really quite simple. It takes time to perfect, but when done properly the primary accomplishment of the adjustment is the changing of joint dynamics though the leveraging of a bone at a joint. The other stuff happens (mechanoreceptor stimulation, changes in sympathetic tone, blood pressure changes...), but is more variable and less reproducible. We don't adjust the nervous system, we affect the nervous system. We make joints move. Adjusting is great, when it is necessary, but there is a lot of other things we can do and should do as chiropractors, and some of these things are not "proven" or even medically accepted. This doesn't make them ineffective or wrong. The primarily accepted health philosophy (western medicine), while having many strong points, has plenty of warts as well. Unproven, untested methods abound within medicine. But it is the strongest because of political clout, current tradition and lots and lots of $$$. Stirring up thought and reflection is good, but hopefully your mind remains open!

Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak St

Hillsboro, OR 97123

(503)640-3724

Re: evidence based chiropractic blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:44 -0800 > ><< DC- >> ><< mheller.vcf >> OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Phil;

You know,

last year I demonstrated NMT at the CAO convention on a 55 year old man with

severe LBP and sciatica to the foot at VAS 9/10. He had been evaluated by

two neurologists who wanted to do injections of the back, which he refused and

he treated with the best of chiropractic care with no improvement. After

a 30 minute session with him, available to you on video from the CAO, he had no

pain and the fix was durable. He did a follow up treatment with an NMT

practitioner, Dr. Knecht and that was it for the back problem. Now,

whatever you might think of the procedure you are welcome to view, the fact is

that NMT produced a fix that was objective and durable. Only a foolish

person could call that the result of dogma.

Hundreds of

people have witnessed me cure anaphylactic food allergy on the spot with NMT in

20 minute sessions after which they eat the food with no reaction. This

is reality. Where does the dogma and paradigm stuff relate.

The world

is the way it is. We just have to be honest observers of what happens and

try to make sense of it.

Best

regards,

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Snell

[mailto:drpsnell@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

9:04 AM

mheller@...;

Subject: Re: evidence

based chiropractic blog

Thank you

for the input Marc. I share your desire for a better union of the

scientific and vitalistic paradigms. Years ago, I had a discussion with

my logic professor, who was also a devout Catholic, about how he reconciled his

faith in the eyes of Aristotilean logic. He responded that while logic

provides a tool for clearer thinking, it doesn't necessarily " get you

across the bridge " to the kernels of human experience. He felt there

was no mutual exclusion.

Similarly,

such vitalistic underpinnings can exist in a science minded doctor.

Indeed, they do in me daily. I break, however, with some who have written

here when I see rational query break down, and parroting of professional and

personal dogma take over. I also choose to frame any of the things I do

that don't have the scientific rigor of randomized, double blinding, to support

them, as theoretical. I don't have a method to promote, a technique to

sell, nor desire to convert the masses with axioms, old wive's tales, and effective

sales techniques.

I want to

understand things a bit better, a simple honest desire. It is thru that

desire to know that I have raised these questions. As I said to my office

partner last night, this rug we walk on daily needs to be taken out back and

beaten to clean it up a bit.

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

>From: " Marc Heller,

DC " <mheller@...> > " D Beebe, D.C. "

<res0btan@...> >CC: , Snell

<drpsnell@...> >Subject: Re: evidence based

chiropractic blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:44 -0800 > ><< DC- >>

><< mheller.vcf >>

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Snell

[mailto:drpsnell@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

9:04 AM

mheller@...;

Subject: Re: evidence

based chiropractic blog

Thank you

for the input Marc. I share your desire for a better union of the

scientific and vitalistic paradigms. Years ago, I had a discussion with

my logic professor, who was also a devout Catholic, about how he reconciled his

faith in the eyes of Aristotilean logic. He responded that while logic

provides a tool for clearer thinking, it doesn't necessarily " get you

across the bridge " to the kernels of human experience. He felt there

was no mutual exclusion.

Similarly,

such vitalistic underpinnings can exist in a science minded doctor.

Indeed, they do in me daily. I break, however, with some who have written

here when I see rational query break down, and parroting of professional and

personal dogma take over. I also choose to frame any of the things I do

that don't have the scientific rigor of randomized, double blinding, to support

them, as theoretical. I don't have a method to promote, a technique to

sell, nor desire to convert the masses with axioms, old wive's tales, and

effective sales techniques.

I want to

understand things a bit better, a simple honest desire. It is thru that

desire to know that I have raised these questions. As I said to my office

partner last night, this rug we walk on daily needs to be taken out back and

beaten to clean it up a bit.

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

>From: " Marc Heller,

DC " <mheller@...> > " D Beebe, D.C. "

<res0btan@...> >CC: , Snell

<drpsnell@...> >Subject: Re: evidence based

chiropractic blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:44 -0800 > ><< DC- >>

><< mheller.vcf >>

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

[Guest guest]

and Phil,

I volunteered at Denver General Emergency room in the 80’s. A couple of residents were rinsing blood clots out of a drunk woman’s hair so they could sew up a laceration. I asked them how they knew that hydrogen peroxide dissolved clots making them rinse out like Kool-aide. They said they didn’t know; that the nurses told them to do it, but who cared, it worked. I was dumbfounded. They were DOCTORS and didn’t know how something worked. This wasn’t the last time.

Years later, my wife told me to adjust my infant son because he had colic and she had success with adjusting her previous kids for that condition. I didn’t know how so she showed me. It worked.

She also brought various kids to me for cervical adjustments when they had “stuffed up ears” which works about 99% of the time.

How does all this stuff work?

I suspect that our agreed upon explanations are largely believable jive.

The only thing I fear is that we will lose some of what Judy Boothby (M.I.T. Grad.) used to call “Chiropractic miracles”, because there is no insurance code for them so we must stop doing them.

OK, I also fear that the NHL will not have a season next year as well.

Good discussion. (Although I have no way to “prove” beyond a reasonable doubt that this is a good discussion.)

( E. Abrahamson, D.C.)

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

On 1/11/05 9:29 AM, " BRIAN SEITZ " <dcdocbrian@...> wrote:

Phil-

As has already been said. you have stirred up a hornets nest! I too am skeptical of claims and want answers, but I'm also curious and eager to learn. Like you, I'm bothered by the theology of Chiropractic, the " I believe " aspect. I'm of the opinion that if you want a belief practice you should function like other religions and ask for offerings instead of charge for a service! I'm intrigued by " energy medicine " , which is a widely encompassing term, and I need to follow up on Chuck's post regarding the seminar/meeting. The traditional chiropractic adjustment has many effects on the body, but in practice is really quite simple. It takes time to perfect, but when done properly the primary accomplishment of the adjustment is the changing of joint dynamics though the leveraging of a bone at a joint. The other stuff happens (mechanoreceptor stimulation, changes in sympathetic tone, blood pressure changes...), but is more variable and less reproducible. We don't adjust the nervous system, we affect the nervous system. We make joints move. Adjusting is great, when it is necessary, but there is a lot of other things we can do and should do as chiropractors, and some of these things are not " proven " or even medically accepted. This doesn't make them ineffective or wrong. The primarily accepted health philosophy (western medicine), while having many strong points, has plenty of warts as well. Unproven, untested methods abound within medicine. But it is the strongest because of political clout, current tradition and lots and lots of $$$. Stirring up thought and reflection is good, but hopefully your mind remains open!

Seitz, DC

Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak St

Hillsboro, OR 97123

(503)640-3724

Re: evidence based chiropractic blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:44 -0800 > ><< DC- >> ><< mheller.vcf >>

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Hey Les,

I couldn't agree more that we need to be honest observers and try to make sense of what we see. 100 years later we have a handful of theories about why manipulation works, yet we still don't know. Some are comfortable with vague explanations of "nerve interference". I'm not.

For all I know Les, you have synthesized the works of your mentors into an easy to replicate, effective therapy that can help folks. That sounds like a testable theory, lets research it. Your anecdotes are very intriguing, but they aren't enough. Axioms are nice, but they aren't enough. You have responded to my writings with a never failing reference to YOUR technique, and refer to yourself as FOUNDER in a way that is over-the-top self-promotional. Your authoritative-sounding forwards of writings were apparently course materials from your NMT seminars, for crying out loud.

Fact is, any one of us has "miracle" cases that we could share. Individually they don't hold much water, collectively they nudge us toward case studies, pilot studies, and randomization. That's where we are as a profession at present and we have the ear of other healthcare professions as a result. Please, Les, for the sake of the whole darn world...get off the promotional soapbox, train enough people to do your thing, and lets run 100 or so sick folks through your modality and get the ball rolling. I really do hope you are right! Prove it!

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C. 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. Portland, OR 97214 Ph. 503-235-5484 Fax 503-235-3956>From: " S. Feinberg, D.C." <feinberg@...> >"' Snell'" <drpsnell@...>, <mheller@...>, < > >Subject: RE: evidence based chiropractic blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:50:59 -0800 > >Phil; > > > >You know, last year I demonstrated NMT at the CAO convention on a 55 year >old man with severe LBP and sciatica to the foot at VAS 9/10. He had been >evaluated by two neurologists who wanted to do injections of the back, which >he refused and he treated with the best of chiropractic care with no >improvement. After a 30 minute session with him, available to you on video >from the CAO, he had no pain and the fix was durable. He did a follow up >treatment with an NMT practitioner, Dr. Knecht and that was it for the back >problem. Now, whatever you might think of the procedure you are welcome to >view, the fact is that NMT produced a fix that was objective and durable. >Only a foolish person could call that the result of dogma. > > > >Hundreds of people have witnessed me cure anaphylactic food allergy on the >spot with NMT in 20 minute sessions after which they eat the food with no >reaction. This is reality. Where does the dogma and paradigm stuff relate. > > > > >The world is the way it is. We just have to be honest observers of what >happens and try to make sense of it. > > > >Best regards, > > > > S. Feinberg, D.C. > > > > S. Feinberg, D.C. > > > > _____ > >From: Snell [mailto:drpsnell@...] >Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:04 AM >mheller@...; >Subject: Re: evidence based chiropractic blog > > > > > >Thank you for the input Marc. I share your desire for a better union of the >scientific and vitalistic paradigms. Years ago, I had a discussion with my >logic professor, who was also a devout Catholic, about how he reconciled his >faith in the eyes of Aristotilean logic. He responded that while logic >provides a tool for clearer thinking, it doesn't necessarily "get you across >the bridge" to the kernels of human experience. He felt there was no mutual >exclusion. > >Similarly, such vitalistic underpinnings can exist in a science minded >doctor. Indeed, they do in me daily. I break, however, with some who have >written here when I see rational query break down, and parroting of >professional and personal dogma take over. I also choose to frame any of >the things I do that don't have the scientific rigor of randomized, double >blinding, to support them, as theoretical. I don't have a method to >promote, a technique to sell, nor desire to convert the masses with axioms, >old wive's tales, and effective sales techniques. > >I want to understand things a bit better, a simple honest desire. It is >thru that desire to know that I have raised these questions. As I said to >my office partner last night, this rug we walk on daily needs to be taken >out back and beaten to clean it up a bit. > > > > > >PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. >3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. >Portland, OR 97214 >Ph. 503-235-5484 >Fax 503-235-3956 > > >From: "Marc Heller, DC" <mheller@...> >" D Beebe, D.C." ><res0btan@...> >CC: , Snell ><drpsnell@...> >Subject: Re: evidence based chiropractic >blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:44 -0800 > ><< DC- >> ><< mheller.vcf >> > > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > > _____ > >

[Guest guest]

Phil;

Having sent

you those materials from my course, it would have been nice if you could have

read and comprehended them and we could have a discussion about the actual

basis of energy medicine instead of this puerile whining that the materials I

sent to inform you are “over the top self promotion”. Even a

guy as unsophisticated in energetic medicine as you have demonstrated should be

able to comprehend these very simple explanations of historical context and

working axioms that I have sent you and be able to engage in a coherent

discussion. You can’t actually believe that these responses of

yours are an acceptable substitute for rational discourse about energetic

medicine.

And as far

as anecdote. Do you actually understand the definition of the word?

It is, “A story. Often used to describe a type of evidence used in

argument, as in anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is sometimes used to

appeal to emotion rather than logic.” That is hardly an appropriate

word choice to describe the videotaped demonstration of a severe LBP/sciatica

case resolved live in front of 150 people. I don’t mean to insult

you but for goodness sake, stop and think a little before you write these

responses. Yes, I agree about the research and have described such

research that has begun. Nevertheless, when I point your pointy head in

the direction of documentation by FDA approved imaging of the resolution of

bone cavitation in 4 ½ months, something that has never been

demonstrated in the history of mankind, perhaps you could respond with

something besides the mind numbed regurgitation of the “let’s see

the research”. Maybe something like a discussion of how the

materials I sent you that you probably haven not even read yet could correlate

to such a fantastic outcome. Honest to Pete!

And, as far

as the “nerve interference” comment, what the hell else do you

think it is? It’s the gosh darn nervous system that tells the

tissues what to do. Holy cow! Carumba!!!

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Snell

[mailto:drpsnell@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

12:05 PM

feinberg@...;

; thyde444@...; jtriano@...;

drcroft@...

Subject: RE: evidence

based chiropractic blog

Hey Les,

I

couldn't agree more that we need to be honest observers and try to make sense

of what we see. 100 years later we have a handful of theories about why

manipulation works, yet we still don't know. Some are comfortable with

vague explanations of " nerve interference " . I'm not.

For all I

know Les, you have synthesized the works of your mentors into an easy to

replicate, effective therapy that can help folks. That sounds like a

testable theory, lets research it. Your anecdotes are very intriguing,

but they aren't enough. Axioms are nice, but they aren't enough.

You have responded to my writings with a never failing reference to YOUR

technique, and refer to yourself as FOUNDER in a way that is over-the-top

self-promotional. Your authoritative-sounding forwards of writings were

apparently course materials from your NMT seminars, for crying out loud.

Fact is, any one of us has " miracle " cases

that we could share. Individually they don't hold much water,

collectively they nudge us toward case studies, pilot studies, and

randomization. That's where we are as a profession at present and we have

the ear of other healthcare professions as a result. Please, Les, for the

sake of the whole darn world...get off the promotional soapbox, train enough

people to do your thing, and lets run 100 or so sick folks through your modality

and get the ball rolling. I really do hope you are right! Prove

it!

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

>From: " S. Feinberg, D.C. " <feinberg@...> > " '

Snell' " <drpsnell@...>, <mheller@...>,

< > >Subject: RE: evidence based

chiropractic blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:50:59 -0800 > >Phil; >

> > >You know, last year I demonstrated NMT at the CAO convention on a

55 year >old man with severe LBP and sciatica to the foot at VAS 9/10. He

had been >evaluated by two neurologists who wanted to do injections of the

back, which >he refused and he treated with the best of chiropractic care with

no >improvement. After a 30 minute session with him, available to you on

video >from the CAO, he had no pain and the fix was durable. He did a follow

up >treatment with an NMT practitioner, Dr. Knecht and that was it for the

back >problem. Now, whatever you might think of the procedure you are

welcome to >view, the fact is that NMT produced a fix that was objective and

durable. >Only a foolish person could call that the result of dogma. >

> > >Hundreds of people have witnessed me cure anaphylactic food allergy

on the >spot with NMT in 20 minute sessions after which they eat the food

with no >reaction. This is reality. Where does the dogma and paradigm stuff

relate. > > > > >The world is the way it is. We just have to be

honest observers of what >happens and try to make sense of it. > >

> >Best regards, > > > > S. Feinberg, D.C. > >

> > S. Feinberg, D.C. > > > > _____ > >From:

Snell [mailto:drpsnell@...] >Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

9:04 AM >mheller@...; >Subject:

Re: evidence based chiropractic blog > > > > >

>Thank you for the input Marc. I share your desire for a better union of the

>scientific and vitalistic paradigms. Years ago, I had a discussion with my

>logic professor, who was also a devout Catholic, about how he reconciled

his >faith in the eyes of Aristotilean logic. He responded that while logic

>provides a tool for clearer thinking, it doesn't necessarily " get you

across >the bridge " to the kernels of human experience. He felt there

was no mutual >exclusion. > >Similarly, such vitalistic underpinnings

can exist in a science minded >doctor. Indeed, they do in me daily. I break,

however, with some who have >written here when I see rational query break

down, and parroting of >professional and personal dogma take over. I also

choose to frame any of >the things I do that don't have the scientific rigor

of randomized, double >blinding, to support them, as theoretical. I don't

have a method to >promote, a technique to sell, nor desire to convert the

masses with axioms, >old wive's tales, and effective sales techniques. >

>I want to understand things a bit better, a simple honest desire. It is

>thru that desire to know that I have raised these questions. As I said to

>my office partner last night, this rug we walk on daily needs to be taken

>out back and beaten to clean it up a bit. > > > > >

>PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. >3343 SE

Hawthorne Blvd. >Portland, OR 97214 >Ph. 503-235-5484 >Fax

503-235-3956 > > >From: " Marc Heller,

DC " <mheller@...> > " D Beebe, D.C. "

><res0btan@...> >CC: ,

Snell ><drpsnell@...> >Subject: Re: evidence

based chiropractic >blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:44 -0800 >

><< DC- >> ><< mheller.vcf >> > > >

>OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of

the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your

e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your

e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the

listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence

written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal

identifiers have been removed. > > > > > _____ > >

Groups Links > >* To visit your group on the web, go to:

>/ > >*

[Guest guest]

, you remind me of me when i first started chiro college. I used to think "what the hell is this @#%%@***" I think that sometimes we don't know everything. Like innate inteligence. How a cell knows how to divide and become it's destined creature. Chiropractic has helped people feel better for over 100 years, much of it cannot be explained or proven scientifically. Science can't prove something that is not understood correctly or at all in the beginning. Many times we think we know something and apply science to prove it and lo and behold we get the conclusion we wanted. Then, years later we find we were absolutely wrong and that it was a false conclusion (drug companies come to mind). Allopathic model vs. Non Allopathic model.

Your views about religion and cult are disturbing because i personally do not incorporate or extrapolate religion into my practice or chiropractic philosophy. However some may. Some Medical doctors indeed believe in a spiritual component to healing and well being as well. Some incorporate it into their practices. Is this cultish christian medicine? I believe it's the understanding that the well being and health of a human is larger than the grey matter in our brains, and we have no way to understand a great deal about why and how things happen. You specifically talk about AK, but you might as well include the whole profession of chiropractic. The evidence for it to be called science just isn't here Phil. Some good advice given to me and many of us at Life West CC by Gerald Clum DC pres. was KISS. keep it simple stupid. It's not that complicated. Practice with the philosophy that you believe in is one way to look at that advice. The other is, chiropractic is what it is. It's in the dictionary, just do it, practice it and you will see that all of your results will never be scientifically sound.

yours, Joe Medlin DC

PDX

evidence based chiropractic blog > > > Friends and Colleagues, > > Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to see you at > > http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/ > > > > > PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. > 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland, OR 97214 > Ph. 503-235-5484 > Fax 503-235-3956 > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

[Guest guest]

Joe;

I went in

for a Lasix surgery on my eyes about 2 years ago at one of the best ophthalmology

centers in the northwest. As I lay on the surgical table with drops in my eyes

staring up at the surgical lamps the surgeon asked if I minded if he said a

prayer before the surgery. I said, “Please do.” And forward we

went. The idea that the spiritual, physical, scientific, and emotional can be

compartmentalized is kind of schizophrenic when you think about it. Its like

the botanist who studies trees but has no awareness of ever seeing a forest.

Again, the Bohm book, “Unfolding Meaning” is a wonderful

insight in regard to such issues.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: deadmed

[mailto:deadmed@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

12:31 PM

;

Snell

Subject: Re: evidence

based chiropractic blog

, you remind me of me when i first

started chiro college. I used to think " what the hell is this

@#%%@*** " I think that sometimes we don't know everything. Like

innate inteligence. How a cell knows how to divide and become it's destined

creature. Chiropractic has helped people feel better for over 100 years, much

of it cannot be explained or proven scientifically. Science can't prove something

that is not understood correctly or at all in the beginning. Many times we

think we know something and apply science to prove it and lo and

behold we get the conclusion we wanted. Then, years later we find we were

absolutely wrong and that it was a false conclusion (drug companies come to

mind). Allopathic model vs. Non Allopathic model.

Your views about religion and cult

are disturbing because i personally do not incorporate or extrapolate religion

into my practice or chiropractic philosophy. However some may. Some Medical

doctors indeed believe in a spiritual component to healing and well being as

well. Some incorporate it into their practices. Is this cultish

christian medicine? I believe it's the understanding that the well being and

health of a human is larger than the grey matter in our brains,

and we have no way to understand a great deal about why and how

things happen. You specifically talk about AK, but you might as well

include the whole profession of chiropractic. The evidence for it to be called

science just isn't here Phil. Some good advice given to me and many of us at

Life West CC by Gerald Clum DC pres. was KISS. keep it simple stupid. It's not

that complicated. Practice with the philosophy that you believe in is one way

to look at that advice. The other is, chiropractic is what it is. It's in the

dictionary, just do it, practice it and you will see that all of your results

will never be scientifically sound.

yours, Joe Medlin DC

PDX

evidence based chiropractic blog > > > Friends and

Colleagues, > > Recently, I have found myself in several discussions

which revolve around the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what

it should or shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have

taken place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see,

e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out.

Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry

out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by

starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the

link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our

profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by

what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you think? Hope to

see you at > > http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/ > > > > >

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. > 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd. > Portland,

OR 97214

> Ph. 503-235-5484 > Fax 503-235-3956 > > > > OregonDCs

rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve

is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up

anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Phil;

In regard

to your statement, “Please, Les, for the sake of the whole darn

world...get off the promotional soapbox, train enough people to do your thing,

and lets run 100 or so sick folks through your modality and get the ball

rolling.” let me make this offer to you. You want me to train

enough people to do NMT to produce the kind of research that you and I both

want to see done. So, I am bringing the NMT Comprehensive level seminar

to Portland, OR on March 18-20. I will personally

pay ½ of the $1295 tuition for your seminar if you come. Then you

can actually learn about energetic medicine and you can participate in the very

research that you so ardently believe in. Unless you are one of those

B.S.’ers that never step up to the plate and only belly ache that no one

else did the work they think needs to be done, I know I’ll see you

there. I’ll be sure to tell the NMT seminar staff to expect your

call and that I am paying half your tuition. I think the ball is in your

court.

By the way,

you can always call Drs. Knecht, Keim, Rick Hebert, Mark , Marc Heller, Greg Ross, Jim Neilson, Greenbaum,

Dawn , Irv , Bruce Ulrich, Rich Schwartz, and Dan Beebe to find out

first hand what they are actually seeing in their offices on a routine basis

with NMT before you register. If you don’t come, I suspect that you

may not be able to understand Dr. ’ cogent advise to you.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Snell

[mailto:drpsnell@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

12:05 PM

feinberg@...;

; thyde444@...; jtriano@...;

drcroft@...

Subject: RE: evidence

based chiropractic blog

Hey Les,

I

couldn't agree more that we need to be honest observers and try to make sense

of what we see. 100 years later we have a handful of theories about why

manipulation works, yet we still don't know. Some are comfortable with

vague explanations of " nerve interference " . I'm not.

For all I

know Les, you have synthesized the works of your mentors into an easy to

replicate, effective therapy that can help folks. That sounds like a

testable theory, lets research it. Your anecdotes are very intriguing,

but they aren't enough. Axioms are nice, but they aren't enough.

You have responded to my writings with a never failing reference to YOUR

technique, and refer to yourself as FOUNDER in a way that is over-the-top

self-promotional. Your authoritative-sounding forwards of writings were

apparently course materials from your NMT seminars, for crying out loud.

Fact is, any one of us has " miracle " cases

that we could share. Individually they don't hold much water,

collectively they nudge us toward case studies, pilot studies, and randomization.

That's where we are as a profession at present and we have the ear of other

healthcare professions as a result. Please, Les, for the sake of the

whole darn world...get off the promotional soapbox, train enough people to do

your thing, and lets run 100 or so sick folks through your modality and get the

ball rolling. I really do hope you are right! Prove it!

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

>From: " S. Feinberg, D.C. " <feinberg@...> > " '

Snell' " <drpsnell@...>, <mheller@...>,

< > >Subject: RE: evidence based

chiropractic blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:50:59 -0800 > >Phil; >

> > >You know, last year I demonstrated NMT at the CAO convention on a

55 year >old man with severe LBP and sciatica to the foot at VAS 9/10. He

had been >evaluated by two neurologists who wanted to do injections of the

back, which >he refused and he treated with the best of chiropractic care

with no >improvement. After a 30 minute session with him, available to you

on video >from the CAO, he had no pain and the fix was durable. He did a

follow up >treatment with an NMT practitioner, Dr. Knecht and that was it

for the back >problem. Now, whatever you might think of the procedure you

are welcome to >view, the fact is that NMT produced a fix that was objective

and durable. >Only a foolish person could call that the result of dogma.

> > > >Hundreds of people have witnessed me cure anaphylactic food

allergy on the >spot with NMT in 20 minute sessions after which they eat the

food with no >reaction. This is reality. Where does the dogma and paradigm

stuff relate. > > > > >The world is the way it is. We just have

to be honest observers of what >happens and try to make sense of it. >

> > >Best regards, > > > > S. Feinberg, D.C. >

> > > S. Feinberg, D.C. > > > > _____ > >From:

Snell [mailto:drpsnell@...] >Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

9:04 AM >mheller@...; >Subject:

Re: evidence based chiropractic blog > > > > >

>Thank you for the input Marc. I share your desire for a better union of the

>scientific and vitalistic paradigms. Years ago, I had a discussion with my

>logic professor, who was also a devout Catholic, about how he reconciled

his >faith in the eyes of Aristotilean logic. He responded that while logic

>provides a tool for clearer thinking, it doesn't necessarily " get you

across >the bridge " to the kernels of human experience. He felt there

was no mutual >exclusion. > >Similarly, such vitalistic underpinnings

can exist in a science minded >doctor. Indeed, they do in me daily. I break,

however, with some who have >written here when I see rational query break

down, and parroting of >professional and personal dogma take over. I also

choose to frame any of >the things I do that don't have the scientific rigor

of randomized, double >blinding, to support them, as theoretical. I don't have

a method to >promote, a technique to sell, nor desire to convert the masses

with axioms, >old wive's tales, and effective sales techniques. > >I

want to understand things a bit better, a simple honest desire. It is >thru

that desire to know that I have raised these questions. As I said to >my

office partner last night, this rug we walk on daily needs to be taken >out

back and beaten to clean it up a bit. > > > > > >PLEASE NOTE

NEW ADDRESS! > > W. Snell, D.C. >3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

>Portland, OR 97214 >Ph. 503-235-5484 >Fax 503-235-3956 > >

>From: " Marc Heller,

DC " <mheller@...> > " D Beebe, D.C. "

><res0btan@...> >CC: ,

Snell ><drpsnell@...> >Subject: Re: evidence

based chiropractic >blog >Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:12:44 -0800 >

><< DC- >> ><< mheller.vcf >> > > >

>OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of

the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your

e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your

e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the

listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence

written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal

identifiers have been removed. > > > > > _____ > >

Groups Links > >* To visit your group on the web, go to: >/

> >*

[Guest guest]

Jay;

I have to

say that sounds to me like absurd claptrap! Can you name one thing that

you learned in chiropractic college that ever entered the profession as a

result of that process of peer review and publication. I’m just asking

for one, not something unachievable like, say two or three. By contrast

look at the mayhem of 150,000 deaths a year as a result of properly prescribed

medications. The illusion of “objective” verification was

dispensed with nearly a century ago by Heisenberg. The observer and

observed are in a constant dance of interaction at all times. The model

of evaluation used in the medical profession to “prove” drug safety

and efficacy is garbage that results in the horror that our health care system

has become, leading us to fiscal and physical ruin. The medical model

belches the word placebo in regard to energetic medicine without the slightest understanding

of what placebo is. Placebo is the unintended application of therapeutic

intention that happens in all patient/doctor encounters. It is considered

to be a very large part of all beneficial drug effects and nothing in the

testing process for these rules that out, nor could it. We should be

looking at protocols to maximize the placebo effect, not minimize it! The

converse of this is that there are many reports that show that when a doctor

who is principle investigator for a drug trial learns something negative about

the drug that the effects in the patients in the trial worsen.

Therapeutic intention is powerful. All energetic medicine is about the

delivery of therapeutic intention and the difference between them is how

elegantly and efficiently they can apply therapeutic intention to redirect the

intelligent control system that directs body processes. If you haven’t

read Bohm’s “Unfolding Meaning” or “Wholeness and

the Implicate Order”, I suggest you do.

Just

because someone takes pot shots from behind the barricade of “science”

doesn’t mean they are being scientific in their comments. If you

think you are being “objective”, and separating yourself from the

subject you comment on, I suggest you read Bohm and other serious scientists

who will inform you very clearly that this is a fantasy that is unachievable.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Dr. Jay Triano

[mailto:jtriano@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

6:19 AM

S. Feinberg, D.C.;

Snell; drcroft@...; robertdolton@...;

ngoodwill4722@...; softissu@...; thyde444@...;

alicekimdc@...; ; flipsnell@...;

kajukenbouk@...

Subject: RE: evidence

based chiropractic blog

A little self-serving never hurts!

Sadly, publications on individual websites

sans the process of science and review do not garner socioeconomic or health

policy trust and legitimacy. Too bad that such highly interesting results were

not offered up to the betterment of the world through accepted modes of peer

reveiw and publication.

JT

evidence

based chiropractic blog

Friends

and Colleagues,

Recently,

I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central

notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't become.

Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in have not allowed

the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk over a beer or 2 at

a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is something brand new

to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these types of

conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting a

blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the link

below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our

profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by

what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you

think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

[Guest guest]

Jay;

Thanks for

the permission, and that articulate reply to my comments on the attainability

of “objectivity” in human healthcare.

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Dr. Jay Triano

[mailto:jtriano@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

2:45 PM

S. Feinberg, D.C.;

Snell; drcroft@...; robertdolton@...;

ngoodwill4722@...; softissu@...; thyde444@...;

alicekimdc@...; ; flipsnell@...;

kajukenbouk@...

Subject: RE: evidence

based chiropractic blog

You are welcome to your views and welcome

not to waste my time.

jt

evidence

based chiropractic blog

Friends

and Colleagues,

Recently,

I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central

notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't

become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in

have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk

over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is

something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these

types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting

a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the

link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our

profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by

what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you

think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

[Guest guest]

Jay;

One more

thing and then I’m through. You are a well educated gentleman with a

D.C. and Ph.D. degree. I asked you for one example of any chiropractic procedure

that is taught in chiropractic colleges that was developed in chiropractic

colleges and subjected to the sort of stringent criteria you want applied to

everything else chiropractors do. Will you please name just one thing? That

is all I ask of you. One example that would give even the slightest support

to your position that such standards in any real measure belong at the top of

our criteria for deciding what is appropriate in chiropractic?

S.

Feinberg, D.C.

From: Dr. Jay Triano

[mailto:jtriano@...]

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005

2:45 PM

S. Feinberg, D.C.;

Snell; drcroft@...; robertdolton@...;

ngoodwill4722@...; softissu@...; thyde444@...;

alicekimdc@...; ; flipsnell@...;

kajukenbouk@...

Subject: RE: evidence

based chiropractic blog

You are welcome to your views and welcome

not to waste my time.

jt

evidence

based chiropractic blog

Friends

and Colleagues,

Recently,

I have found myself in several discussions which revolve around the central

notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it should or shouldn't

become. Many of the forums that these discussions have taken place in

have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to see, e.g. frank talk

over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things out. Blogging is

something brand new to me and may be the venue in which to carry out these

types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give it a go by starting

a blog. These things only work when folks participate, so bookmark the

link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest future for our

profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories are replaced by

what works, and what can be proven scientifically. What do you

think? Hope to see you at

http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

W. Snell, D.C.

3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

Portland, OR

97214

Ph. 503-235-5484

Fax 503-235-3956

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Les...is there a missing thread here? Youve addressed Jay twice

with no posts from Jay...obviously he has posted you off list. If

youre referring to Jay Holder, Id like to see your post.

Dennis Nowack DC

> Jay;

>

>

>

> One more thing and then I'm through. You are a well educated

gentleman with

> a D.C. and Ph.D. degree. I asked you for one example of any

chiropractic

> procedure that is taught in chiropractic colleges that was

developed in

> chiropractic colleges and subjected to the sort of stringent

criteria you

> want applied to everything else chiropractors do. Will you please

name just

> one thing? That is all I ask of you. One example that would

give even the

> slightest support to your position that such standards in any real

measure

> belong at the top of our criteria for deciding what is appropriate

in

> chiropractic?

>

>

>

> S. Feinberg, D.C.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: Dr. Jay Triano [mailto:jtriano@t...]

> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:45 PM

> S. Feinberg, D.C.; Snell; drcroft@s...;

> robertdolton@h...; ngoodwill4722@m...; softissu@o...;

> thyde444@b...; alicekimdc@h...; ;

> flipsnell@h...; kajukenbouk@y...

> Subject: RE: evidence based chiropractic blog

>

>

>

> You are welcome to your views and welcome not to waste my time.

>

> jt

>

> evidence based chiropractic blog

>

>

>

> Friends and Colleagues,

>

> Recently, I have found myself in several discussions which revolve

around

> the central notion of what chiropractic is/isn't and what it

should or

> shouldn't become. Many of the forums that these discussions have

taken

> place in have not allowed the kind of discussion I would like to

see, e.g.

> frank talk over a beer or 2 at a local pub trying to figure things

out.

> Blogging is something brand new to me and may be the venue in

which to carry

> out these types of conversations. So I thought I'd like to give

it a go by

> starting a blog. These things only work when folks participate,

so bookmark

> the link below, log on and say your piece. I see the brightest

future for

> our profession in a world where archaic, quasi-religous theories

are

> replaced by what works, and what can be proven scientifically.

What do you

> think? Hope to see you at

>

> http://ebchiro.blogspot.com/

>

> PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS!

>

> W. Snell, D.C.

> 3343 SE Hawthorne Blvd.

> Portland, OR 97214

> Ph. 503-235-5484

> Fax 503-235-3956

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve

is to

> foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

listserve

> members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

However,

> it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

or

> otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member

without his or

> her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

> _____

>

>