Re: Just when you have heard it all...

[Guest guest]

Against the Law as well??? I'd report the asshole.

Joe medlin dc

Just when you have heard it all...

Docs,

Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed to me from my daughter. One of the members "threw her back out". She went to see her MD. She said the MD "cracked my neck and my back". My daughter asked her "why don't you go see my step-dad?" The dance team member said, "my doctor said he doesn't trust chiropractors."

Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one thing to say "I don't trust chiropractors". But it's another to say that and turn around and attempt to render an adjustment (which probably sucked anyway). I am appalled...

Matt Terreri, DCOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

What law did he break?

Matt

Just when you have heard it all...

Docs,

Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed to me from my daughter. One of the members "threw her back out". She went to see her MD. She said the MD "cracked my neck and my back". My daughter asked her "why don't you go see my step-dad?" The dance team member said, "my doctor said he doesn't trust chiropractors."

Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one thing to say "I don't trust chiropractors". But it's another to say that and turn around and attempt to render an adjustment (which probably sucked anyway). I am appalled...

Matt Terreri, DCOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Matty,

Sounds like it is time for a team talk, providing DC hours of training.

Providing the sheet showing the diffence between the MD & DC hours,

including the fact that there are no hours of adjustive technique. That

girl's comment is likely to flash through the team (and their parents) and

your daughter will get caught in the middle. Be proactive ... just being at

each practice when the various stumbles and tumbles happen can overcome it

but it will take time, diplomacy, patience and presence on your part.

And, of course, you want a signed release from each member's parent. No

release, no hands-on.

It is downright disgusting....sorry you are having to deal with it. Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC

Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon

59 Santa Clara St.,

Eugene, Oregon, 97404

541-689-0935

>From: " mattydread " <mattydread@...>

> " " < >

>Subject: Just when you have heard it all...

>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:15:54 -0800

>

> Docs,

>

> Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high

>school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team pro bono as

>one of their team docs. This story was just relayed to me from my daughter.

>One of the members " threw her back out " . She went to see her MD. She said

>the MD " cracked my neck and my back " . My daughter asked her " why don't you

>go see my step-dad? " The dance team member said, " my doctor said he doesn't

>trust chiropractors. "

> Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one thing to say " I

>don't trust chiropractors " . But it's another to say that and turn around

>and attempt to render an adjustment (which probably sucked anyway). I am

>appalled...

>

> Matt Terreri, DC

[Guest guest]

I thought only DO's could manipulate. Must have training no? I think in CA (where i come from originally) they CANNOT. It's called practicing chiropractic without a license. Does anyone know why we allow these DO's/MD's in Oregon to practice chiropractic without a license??

I cannot believe he had the gall to say he doe'snt trust chiropractors, then turns around with his half ass hack job of a manipulation that he learned in one seminar no less. This has to be addressed, if for nothing else, for the safety of the public. sheeeesh.

I mean this reminds me of what originally happened to the DO profession. They had a nice thing going on with manipulation of the extremeties mainly and philosophy of blood circulation being at the center of all health. Well the AMA didn't like these guys taking away a % of the market share and decided to actually give DO's the opportunity to Trade their licenses in for an MD. Most did. The profession was predominantly extinct, untill recently. As chiropractic became extremely popular with the people, and the benefits of spinal manipulation could not be avoided, the DO profession had a revival. Being guided by the AMA, they were set out to take back a % of the market share that they are losing to us DC's. I wonder if we will ever be offered an MD license?

joe medlin dc

Message -----

From: mattydread

; Dr. DeShaw, Esq

Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:22 AM

Subject: Re: Just when you have heard it all...

What law did he break?

Matt

Just when you have heard it all...

Docs,

Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed to me from my daughter. One of the members "threw her back out". She went to see her MD. She said the MD "cracked my neck and my back". My daughter asked her "why don't you go see my step-dad?" The dance team member said, "my doctor said he doesn't trust chiropractors."

Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one thing to say "I don't trust chiropractors". But it's another to say that and turn around and attempt to render an adjustment (which probably sucked anyway). I am appalled...

Matt Terreri, DCOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Doctors:

I was forwarded this e-mail by Dr. Medlin, and my response is

essentially the same as it was when Dr. Terreri asked me my opinion on

the matter.

In my opinion no licensing board in Oregon is going to do anything

about this. If the chiropractic board won't take action against an IME

doctor for assaulting a minor (yes, they turned down my complaint on

behalf of the 5 year old client who was noted as having " normal "

cervical and lumbar range of motion based upon her ability to run away

from the IME, and was forcefully grabbed several times by the IME when

permission had been revoked by the parents due to their disgust with

his actions) they certainly aren't going to do anything to an MD who

wants to manipulate someone with or without any training. On the flip

side, the Oregon medical board wouldn't even investigate an MD I turned

in for falsely claiming he had an MD degree when he obtained his

medical license. So, I wouldn't hope for much as far as a board

protecting the public. Apparently that is beyond them. Plus, its

within an MDs scope of practice to manipulate, just like it is to

prescribe VIOXX and Neurontin. Not saying that any one of the three

couldn't kills someone, but apparently they can do any of the above (or

I should say could until VIOXX was removed from the market). That's

why the stats for stroke due to manipulation are so significantly

tilted toward those manipulations rendered by MDs and other

non/under-trained providers, when that population only provides a small

fraction of the total spinal manipulation performed.

The comment " I don't trust chiropractors " is also most likely not

defamatory because it is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.

It would have to be a false statement of fact for it to be actionable,

and Oregon isn't very favorable on defamation anyway. An example of a

false statement of fact is something like " Chiropractor X hurts every

patient he treats, " or even more actionable " Chiropractor X has been

criminally prosecuted for having sex with several of his patients " when

that statement is actually false. That would be defamation that would

be actionable. Couching lies about chiropractic within personal

opinion is part of the reason why the medical community have gotten

away with disparaging chiropractic for 50+ years. If you make it a

personal opinion, it is always true if the person believes it.

I don't like the outcome, but with the present laws and board makeup in

Oregon, I don't think this is going to go anywhere. I'd love for

someone to prove me wrong.

DeShaw

On Thursday, November 11, 2004, at 12:04 PM, deadmed wrote:

>     I thought only DO's could manipulate. Must have training no?  I

> think in CA (where i come from originally) they CANNOT. It's called

> practicing chiropractic without a license. Does anyone know why we

> allow these DO's/MD's in Oregon to practice chiropractic without a

> license??

>     I cannot believe he had the gall to say he doe'snt trust

> chiropractors, then turns around with his half ass hack job of a

> manipulation that he learned in one seminar no less. This has to be

> addressed, if for nothing else, for the safety of the public. > sheeeesh.

>     I mean this reminds me of what originally happened to the DO

> profession. They had a nice thing going on with manipulation of the

> extremeties mainly and philosophy of blood circulation being at the

> center of all health. Well the AMA didn't like these guys taking away

> a % of the market share and decided to actually give DO's the

> opportunity to Trade their licenses in for an MD. Most did. The

> profession was predominantly extinct, untill recently.  As

> chiropractic became extremely popular with the people, and the

> benefits of spinal manipulation could not be avoided, the DO

> profession had a revival. Being guided by the AMA, they were set out

> to take back a % of the market share that they are losing to us DC's.

> I wonder if we will ever be offered an MD license?

> joe medlin dc

> Message -----

>

> From: mattydread

> ; Dr. DeShaw, Esq

> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:22 AM

> Subject: Re: Just when you have heard it all...

>

>             What law did he break?

>  

>         Matt

>

> Just when you have heard it all...

>

>            Docs,

>  

>         Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the

> high school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team

> pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed to me

> from my daughter. One of the members " threw her back out " . She went to

> see her MD. She said the MD " cracked my neck and my back " . My daughter

> asked her " why don't you go see my step-dad? " The dance team member

> said, " my doctor said he doesn't trust chiropractors. "

>         Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one thing to say

> " I don't trust chiropractors " . But it's another to say that and turn

> around and attempt to render an adjustment (which probably sucked

> anyway). I am appalled...

>  

>             Matt Terreri, DC

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is

> to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> listserve members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

> member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers

> have been removed.

>

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is

> to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> listserve members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

> member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers

> have been removed.

>

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is

> to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on

> listserve members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

> member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers

> have been removed.

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No it's not against the law. MD's have unrestriced licenses in that realm.

Colwell, DC

From: deadmed

; mattydread

Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:20 AM

Subject: Re: Just when you have heard it all...

Against the Law as well??? I'd report the asshole.

Joe medlin dc

Just when you have heard it all...

Docs,

Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed to me from my daughter. One of the members "threw her back out". She went to see her MD. She said the MD "cracked my neck and my back". My daughter asked her "why don't you go see my step-dad?" The dance team member said, "my doctor said he doesn't trust chiropractors."

Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one thing to say "I don't trust chiropractors". But it's another to say that and turn around and attempt to render an adjustment (which probably sucked anyway). I am appalled...

Matt Terreri, DCOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

There's that bus again!!!!

> Docs,

>

> Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high

> school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team

> pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed

> to me from my daughter. One of the members " threw her back out " .

> She went to see her MD. She said the MD " cracked my neck and my

> back " . My daughter asked her " why don't you go see my step-dad? "

> The dance team member said, " my doctor said he doesn't trust

> chiropractors. " Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one

> thing to say " I don't trust chiropractors " . But it's another to

> say that and turn around and attempt to render an adjustment

> (which probably sucked anyway). I am appalled...

>

> Matt Terreri, DC

DR CHARLIE CAUGHLIN DC. CAC

155 NW 1ST AVE

JOHN DAY, OR 97845

OFF-541-575-1063

FAX-541-575-5554

HM-541-575-1103

[Guest guest]

Matt,

You will continue to head illogical and infuriating things like this throughout your practice. Do you think that you are alone in this? How many surgeons have heard from their patients that someone told them that surgery is very dangerous and that they should never have it, or internists who have been told by their patients that they won't take a needed medication because they are afraid of the side effects and they know someone who died from taking prescribed meds. I know many MDs who are regularly defamed by auto insurers looking to cut costs by preventing patients from getting treatment from a doc they feel is too sympathetic to the injured.

You pursued this career path because you know the benefits of chiropractic. You also know that not everyone understands or even cares to understand what it is that you do. OK, so that's why you are an educator as well as a doctor. One way to look at this kind of irresponsible behavior that may make you feel better next time is the Mr. T approach; "I pity da fool." The MD who is manipulating his patients and telling them not to go to a chiropractor is not a bad guy but rather ignorant and too lazy to learn about a beneficial treatment that would likely help his patients. He has defined you as "untrustworthy" but his actions define him as ill informed and uncaring about his patients.

My response would be along the following lines: "Chiropractic has been around for more than a hundred years and there are many studies showing that it is very effective for a variety of conditions. Chiropractors are trained and licensed by the State of Oregon to diagnose and treat these problems; the fact that your medical doctor doesn't know this fundamental fact, one that is known by most of his colleagues, is astonishing. It's too bad that he doesn't put your interests first when determining what kind of care would be best for you."

Because isn't that really what's going on? Instead of getting all excited about one fool feel great about what you are going to do for the next patient who walks into your office, because that's why you got into the profession.

Freeman Re: Just when you have heard it all... There's that bus again!!!!> Docs,>> Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high> school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team> pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed> to me from my daughter. One of the members "threw her back out".> She went to see her MD. She said the MD "cracked my neck and my> back". My daughter asked her "why don't you go see my step-dad?"> The dance team member said, "my doctor said he doesn't trust> chiropractors." Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one> thing to say "I don't trust chiropractors". But it's another to> say that and turn around and attempt to render an adjustment> (which probably sucked anyway). I am appalled...>> Matt Terreri, DCDR CHARLIE CAUGHLIN DC. CAC155 NW 1ST AVEJOHN DAY, OR 97845OFF-541-575-1063FAX-541-575-5554HM-541-575-1103OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

And don't forget how many meticulous forensic accident reconstructionists

have been refuted by a tow truck driver or a rookie cop who was on the

scene:

" May it please the court?...In spite of what Dr. Big City Fancy Pants says

Joe-Bob, you don't thing -Ray was speeding when he hit that guard rail

do you? "

Seriously though, you guys. A well reasoned and well written letter can go a

long way. You should write to the doctor explaining your training in sports

injuries. A short narrative of how you would treat an ankle sprain.

Encourage him to have an open mind about chiropractic and end with a

suggestion (not a warning) that you hope that you will be able to see mutual

patients to THEIR benefit in the future.

You might invitation to come to your clinic for a treatment.

Have your staff read it to delete sarcasm and defensiveness.

Only the most jaded a-ho would not welcome such a letter.

Your purpose is to subtly warn him that offhanded remarks made to the public

will be met with a stinging rebuke. (Let's not be naïve and think that

everyone has to respond to correction before we can agree that it needs to

be done.)

You can also:

Give a sports injury talk to the team and parents. You have the training to

blow most people away in about 10 areas without breaking a synapse.

Posture and kyphosis in teenagers;

Balance systems and dysfunction (inner ear, cerebellum, stretch receptors,

damaged muscle and connective tissue)

Habits and how motor engrams develop in sports;

Etc.

This way you are proving your knowledge without being defensive and

performing a public service simultaneously.

(Dr. Abrahamson, D.C.)

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

503-635-6246

On 11/12/04 9:14 AM, " Dr. Freeman " <drmfreeman@...> wrote:

> Matt,

> You will continue to head illogical and infuriating things like this

> throughout your practice. Do you think that you are alone in this? How many

> surgeons have heard from their patients that someone told them that surgery is

> very dangerous and that they should never have it, or internists who have been

> told by their patients that they won't take a needed medication because they

> are afraid of the side effects and they know someone who died from taking

> prescribed meds. I know many MDs who are regularly defamed by auto insurers

> looking to cut costs by preventing patients from getting treatment from a doc

> they feel is too sympathetic to the injured.

> You pursued this career path because you know the benefits of chiropractic.

> You also know that not everyone understands or even cares to understand what

> it is that you do. OK, so that's why you are an educator as well as a doctor.

> One way to look at this kind of irresponsible behavior that may make you feel

> better next time is the Mr. T approach; " I pity da fool. " The MD who is

> manipulating his patients and telling them not to go to a chiropractor is not

> a bad guy but rather ignorant and too lazy to learn about a beneficial

> treatment that would likely help his patients. He has defined you as

> " untrustworthy " but his actions define him as ill informed and uncaring about

> his patients.

> My response would be along the following lines: " Chiropractic has been around

> for more than a hundred years and there are many studies showing that it is

> very effective for a variety of conditions. Chiropractors are trained and

> licensed by the State of Oregon to diagnose and treat these problems; the fact

> that your medical doctor doesn't know this fundamental fact, one that is known

> by most of his colleagues, is astonishing. It's too bad that he doesn't put

> your interests first when determining what kind of care would be best for

> you. "

> Because isn't that really what's going on? Instead of getting all excited

> about one fool feel great about what you are going to do for the next patient

> who walks into your office, because that's why you got into the profession.

>

> Freeman

>

>

> Re: Just when you have heard it all...

>

> There's that bus again!!!!

>> Docs,

>>

>> Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high

>> school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team

>> pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed

>> to me from my daughter. One of the members " threw her back out " .

>> She went to see her MD. She said the MD " cracked my neck and my

>> back " . My daughter asked her " why don't you go see my step-dad? "

>> The dance team member said, " my doctor said he doesn't trust

>> chiropractors. " Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one

>> thing to say " I don't trust chiropractors " . But it's another to

>> say that and turn around and attempt to render an adjustment

>> (which probably sucked anyway). I am appalled...

>>

>> Matt Terreri, DC

>

>

> DR CHARLIE CAUGHLIN DC. CAC

> 155 NW 1ST AVE

> JOHN DAY, OR 97845

> OFF-541-575-1063

> FAX-541-575-5554

> HM-541-575-1103

>

>

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster

> communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will

> be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it

> is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise

> distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her

> consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

And the Osteopaths are teaching them how to do it.

sharron fuchs dc

Re: Just when you have heard it all...

Against the Law as well??? I'd report the asshole.

Joe medlin dc

Just when you have heard it all...

Docs,

Here's an amazing and sad story. My step-daughter is on the high school dance team. I have extended treatment to the whole team pro bono as one of their team docs. This story was just relayed to me from my daughter. One of the members "threw her back out". She went to see her MD. She said the MD "cracked my neck and my back". My daughter asked her "why don't you go see my step-dad?" The dance team member said, "my doctor said he doesn't trust chiropractors."

Can you believe this? (I know you can) It's one thing to say "I don't trust chiropractors". But it's another to say that and turn around and attempt to render an adjustment (which probably sucked anyway). I am appalled...

Matt Terreri, DCOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.