Actual PT fees in Coos Bay!

[Guest guest]

Here ya go Dr. Guerrero (and company).

Just had a patient who attended 30 days of PT for a partially torn rotator cuff. I had clinically diagnosed this condition, and then confirmed my diagnosis by ordering an MRI. Just to be safe, I referred him to a local Orthogod in order to see if he needed surgery.

The Orthogod told the patient that he did not need surgery, but not to go back to my office! (Therefore I have not treated this patient since referring him out Instead he referred him for "proper rehabilitation" (that was what the patient said the Ortho said) with a PT! (Kind of makes your blood boil, doesn't it? It did mine

Here are the charges:

Ice/heat: $30.00

Therapeutic Exercise: $35.00

Ultrasound: $20-$30.00

Average of $85.00 per visit, 3 times per week. Total bill for 12 visits: $1,186.00. I talked to the patient today and asked him how his shoulder was feeling, and if the PT helped. He said, (and I quote) "It's not much different."

THERE YA GO FOLKS!

How scientific, validated, or documented was the need for THAT treatment? And what part of that treatment couldn't have been provided in any one of our offices? (Course, WE don't get paid for hot/cold packs). (do we?)

And, what is the potential ramification of an Orthogod (who was only asked for a surgical opinion) disrupting the doctor-patient relationship, and completely changing the course of this patient's care? WHERE'S THE BOARD WHEN I REALLY NEED 'EM!?

Anyway, there are some facts and figures that could be used by our State Organizations and Board to present to the Legislature to help justify our fees.

Another potential source of fees/treatment frequencies figures is the attorneys who handle PIP and WC claims. They have OODLES of billings that could be poured over, calculated and compared (patient names excluded) to determine average PT cost per visit, average medical costs with surgeries, MRI's, hospital stays, etc, and average DC costs.

M. s, D.C.

[Guest guest]

Bob

Experience is a GREAT teacher!

Unfortunately we can’t live long enough to make all the

mistakes needed to be smart.

I’ve had the same experience several

times and only get “burned” once or twice and then

make a change.

If your blood is cold, compare the fees

for the DO’s spine manipulation and your temp

will GO UP>

DrBob

W. Pfeiffer,D.C.;D,A.B.C.O.

P. O. Box 606

Pendleton,

Or. 97801

541. 276.2550

From: s,

D.C. [mailto:drbobdc@...]

Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:00

PM

Oregondcs

Subject: Actual PT

fees in Coos Bay!

Here ya go Dr. Guerrero (and company).

Just had a patient who attended 30 days of PT for a partially torn

rotator cuff. I had clinically diagnosed this condition, and

then confirmed my diagnosis by ordering an MRI. Just to be safe, I

referred him to a local Orthogod in order to see if he needed surgery.

The Orthogod told the patient that he did not need surgery,

but not to go back to my office! (Therefore I have not

treated this patient since referring him out Instead he referred

him for " proper rehabilitation " (that was what the patient said the

Ortho said) with a PT! (Kind of makes your blood boil, doesn't it?

It did mine

Here are the charges:

Ice/heat: $30.00

Therapeutic Exercise: $35.00

Ultrasound: $20-$30.00

Average of $85.00 per visit, 3 times per week. Total bill

for 12 visits: $1,186.00. I talked to the patient today and asked

him how his shoulder was feeling, and if the PT helped. He said,

(and I quote) " It's not much different. "

THERE YA GO FOLKS!

How scientific, validated, or documented was the need for THAT

treatment? And what part of that treatment couldn't have been

provided in any one of our offices? (Course, WE don't get paid for

hot/cold packs). (do we?)

And, what is the potential ramification of an Orthogod (who was

only asked for a surgical opinion) disrupting the doctor-patient

relationship, and completely changing the course of this patient's care?

WHERE'S THE BOARD WHEN I REALLY NEED 'EM!?

Anyway, there are some facts and figures that could be used by our

State Organizations and Board to present to the Legislature to help justify our

fees.

Another potential source of fees/treatment frequencies figures is

the attorneys who handle PIP and WC claims. They have OODLES of

billings that could be poured over, calculated and compared (patient names

excluded) to determine average PT cost per visit, average medical costs

with surgeries, MRI's, hospital stays, etc, and average DC costs.

M. s, D.C.

OregonDCs

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1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

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removed.

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. RIchards,

I appreciated seeing the PT billing for similar services. I'm keeping a list and checking it twice! Gonna let them know who's naughty and nice. If anyone else has prices, please feel free to fwd them to me. I am serious about detailing a cost comparison towards the end of demonstrating to the legislature that chiropractors are not the problem with respect to fees. I have been working so hard lately to gather information, attend meetings, drive to Salem, read volumes of material, give up income from 2-4 days a month in order to meet this and many other professional needs suggested by the listserv and docs in the field.

The only part of your post that bothers me is the comment you make,

"WHERE'S THE BOARD WHEN I REALLY NEED EM?"

all in bold caps as though you are shouting your comment. This serves to negate the time I'm spending listening to your requests. It's a bit of a slap in the face as though I'm not listening or helping. Are you so impatient that you can't understand it takes time to complete such a daunting project? Your suggestion is only one of many. You speak as though no one on the board is doing anything to help you. I'm not sure what I've done to you to make you feel that way. Maybe you could help us help you, by joining a committee? Please, Dr. s and other fellow chiropractors, I'll ask again if you can make helpful suggestions without being accusatory. I'm not immune to the problems you speak of. I've also had MDs tell patients to leave my care and visit with a PT instead. It's very disheartening.

I do appreciate all the suggestions I can get but if it's accompanied with disdain, it strikes me as ungrateful for the time I spend listening to and developing your ideas. Meanwhile you get to be at your office, earning money seeing patients and occasionally throw an email of sarcasm at me telling me how I've let you down. There is no 'us' and 'them' when it comes to an OBCE member and a chiropractor in Oregon. We are all one.

MInga Guerrero DC

one of us on the OBCE

In a message dated 5/20/2004 5:21:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, drbobdc@... writes:

Here ya go Dr. Guerrero (and company).

Just had a patient who attended 30 days of PT for a partially torn rotator cuff. I had clinically diagnosed this condition, and then confirmed my diagnosis by ordering an MRI. Just to be safe, I referred him to a local Orthogod in order to see if he needed surgery.

The Orthogod told the patient that he did not need surgery, but not to go back to my office! (Therefore I have not treated this patient since referring him out Instead he referred him for "proper rehabilitation" (that was what the patient said the Ortho said) with a PT! (Kind of makes your blood boil, doesn't it? It did mine

Here are the charges:

Ice/heat: $30.00

Therapeutic Exercise: $35.00

Ultrasound: $20-$30.00

Average of $85.00 per visit, 3 times per week. Total bill for 12 visits: $1,186.00. I talked to the patient today and asked him how his shoulder was feeling, and if the PT helped. He said, (and I quote) "It's not much different."

THERE YA GO FOLKS!

How scientific, validated, or documented was the need for THAT treatment? And what part of that treatment couldn't have been provided in any one of our offices? (Course, WE don't get paid for hot/cold packs). (do we?)

And, what is the potential ramification of an Orthogod (who was only asked for a surgical opinion) disrupting the doctor-patient relationship, and completely changing the course of this patient's care? WHERE'S THE BOARD WHEN I REALLY NEED 'EM!?

Anyway, there are some facts and figures that could be used by our State Organizations and Board to present to the Legislature to help justify our fees.

Another potential source of fees/treatment frequencies figures is the attorneys who handle PIP and WC claims. They have OODLES of billings that could be poured over, calculated and compared (patient names excluded) to determine average PT cost per visit, average medical costs with surgeries, MRI's, hospital stays, etc, and average DC costs.

M. s, D.C.

[Guest guest]

Minga,

Thank you for your comments and standing up for what you are doing. The CAO and members of the OBCE have been volunteering the kind of hours you now contribute for years .... just read Vern's post to ...you can see the amount of time people within our profession are spending to support our profession. It seems very apparent to me that

It takes all of us to keep all of us in practice.

Each of us has talents and skills and disciplines that will assist this head of steam that is building within our profession here in Oregon. You don't have to agree with it all, just join in and add your sense of what's so. It takes all of us to keep all of us in practice. The more we work in the same direction, the stronger we are...and the more positive attention we will reap.

Sunny

CAO Board Member

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DCFibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon59 Santa Clara St.,Eugene, Oregon, 97404541-689-0935

Re: Actual PT fees in Coos Bay!

Dear Dr. RIchards,

I appreciated seeing the PT billing for similar services. I'm keeping a list and checking it twice! Gonna let them know who's naughty and nice. If anyone else has prices, please feel free to fwd them to me. I am serious about detailing a cost comparison towards the end of demonstrating to the legislature that chiropractors are not the problem with respect to fees. I have been working so hard lately to gather information, attend meetings, drive to Salem, read volumes of material, give up income from 2-4 days a month in order to meet this and many other professional needs suggested by the listserv and docs in the field.

The only part of your post that bothers me is the comment you make,

"WHERE'S THE BOARD WHEN I REALLY NEED EM?"

all in bold caps as though you are shouting your comment. This serves to negate the time I'm spending listening to your requests. It's a bit of a slap in the face as though I'm not listening or helping. Are you so impatient that you can't understand it takes time to complete such a daunting project? Your suggestion is only one of many. You speak as though no one on the board is doing anything to help you. I'm not sure what I've done to you to make you feel that way. Maybe you could help us help you, by joining a committee? Please, Dr. s and other fellow chiropractors, I'll ask again if you can make helpful suggestions without being accusatory. I'm not immune to the problems you speak of. I've also had MDs tell patients to leave my care and visit with a PT instead. It's very disheartening.

I do appreciate all the suggestions I can get but if it's accompanied with disdain, it strikes me as ungrateful for the time I spend listening to and developing your ideas. Meanwhile you get to be at your office, earning money seeing patients and occasionally throw an email of sarcasm at me telling me how I've let you down. There is no 'us' and 'them' when it comes to an OBCE member and a chiropractor in Oregon. We are all one.

MInga Guerrero DC

one of us on the OBCE

In a message dated 5/20/2004 5:21:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, drbobdc@... writes:

Here ya go Dr. Guerrero (and company).

Just had a patient who attended 30 days of PT for a partially torn rotator cuff. I had clinically diagnosed this condition, and then confirmed my diagnosis by ordering an MRI. Just to be safe, I referred him to a local Orthogod in order to see if he needed surgery.

The Orthogod told the patient that he did not need surgery, but not to go back to my office! (Therefore I have not treated this patient since referring him out Instead he referred him for "proper rehabilitation" (that was what the patient said the Ortho said) with a PT! (Kind of makes your blood boil, doesn't it? It did mine

Here are the charges:

Ice/heat: $30.00

Therapeutic Exercise: $35.00

Ultrasound: $20-$30.00

Average of $85.00 per visit, 3 times per week. Total bill for 12 visits: $1,186.00. I talked to the patient today and asked him how his shoulder was feeling, and if the PT helped. He said, (and I quote) "It's not much different."

THERE YA GO FOLKS!

How scientific, validated, or documented was the need for THAT treatment? And what part of that treatment couldn't have been provided in any one of our offices? (Course, WE don't get paid for hot/cold packs). (do we?)

And, what is the potential ramification of an Orthogod (who was only asked for a surgical opinion) disrupting the doctor-patient relationship, and completely changing the course of this patient's care? WHERE'S THE BOARD WHEN I REALLY NEED 'EM!?

Anyway, there are some facts and figures that could be used by our State Organizations and Board to present to the Legislature to help justify our fees.

Another potential source of fees/treatment frequencies figures is the attorneys who handle PIP and WC claims. They have OODLES of billings that could be poured over, calculated and compared (patient names excluded) to determine average PT cost per visit, average medical costs with surgeries, MRI's, hospital stays, etc, and average DC costs.

M. s, D.C.

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.