Re: CRON and Bodybuilding: Mutually exclusive?

[Guest guest]

Hi: You don't mention your age so I will guess that you are younger rather than older. Yes, strictly speaking energy restriction is inconsistent with accumulating excessive lean body mass. The extra body weight requires extra calories to support. If you are energy restricted your body will consume fat and muscle mass to try to make up the deficit.That said I lift 3x a week. While I bench press 20# more than I weight, it's less than I pressed before I lost weight. If you train and energy restrict your body will remodel and reduce the muscles you don't use in favor of those you do.There is no reason why you can't practice moderate energy restriction along with moderate body building. Both will be compromised somewhat but it ultimately comes down to personal choices and what it takes to maintain a high quality of life in your opinion. I would say no matter what particular path you may choose, first focus on getting adequate nutrition and avoiding bad foods (like trans-fats).  How you practice your energy intake/energy expenditure balance, is matter of personal choice and likely to change over time. As long as you avoid the more excessive practices of body building (steroids, etc.)  you shouldn't do permanent damage and your main risk is burning the candle a little too brightly. It's your candle so burn it for best effect.JR  On Sep 2, 2006, at 1:01 PM, reb_el wrote:Hi. I've been lurking here for a few months. I'm interested in trying CRON (or perhaps intermittent fasting) but I have a concern. I am an amateur bodybuilder, and although I am by no means a Schwarzenegger and never will be, I am concerned that calorie restriction taken to CRON standards would cause me to lose what muscle I've gained thus far, or at the very least keep me from developing any more. I am also concerned that such austere calorie restriction will rob me of the energy I need to work out effectively. Does anyone here have, or know of, any experience with bodybuilding and CRON? Can one reasonably do both, or are they necessarily mutually exclusive?I don't currently monitor my calorie intake now, I only try to eat healthy such as fruits, veggies and low fat dairy for protein (I'm a L/O herbivore) and eat no more than to satisfy physical hunger. Well, there is the 'occasional' binge. ;)Thanks.-Rick

[Guest guest]

my experience with calorie restriction is that you will lose muscle

mass. cron imo would be incompatible with competitive body building.

this is other than to say you are unable to lift weights or otherwise

exercise. i run an hour a day and usually lift for 30 min about 6 days

a week. when im disciplined with my cron i am in very good shape but,

i do lose weight, and when all the fat is gone, muscles and bones tend

to diminish in volume to a point. on cron you are a smaller human

being in my experience. significant exercise while on cron requires

careful planning of calorie intake so that energy needs can be met.

while on cron and with my exercise im skinny but wiry, strong and

energetic. it is however, im afraid, a different world from

increasing muscle mass as one's goal.

[Guest guest]

We don't promote " austere " CR here. In fact we discourage it. See the files.

on 9/2/2006 2:01 PM, reb_el at bamford@... wrote:

I am also concerned that such austere calorie

restriction will rob me of the energy I need to work out

effectively.

[Guest guest]

ok, tell us, why do u avoid severe (presuming 30%) cron. they do it

with rats and they live longer. the 10% rats live barely longer. a

rat would do better on melatonin than 10% cron.

[Guest guest]

: not sure who you're addressing here. Please add a snippet of the post you're addressing in the future so we can all follow the thread.

I assume from this question that you haven't read our files. They address " moderate " CRON vs. " extreme " CRON and why " moderate " may be better for humans. There's also a post in that file from " ' and his bad experience with the " gray zone " and extreme CRON.

We are not rats. And even though the primate tests are also going well, we are a different kind of primate than an ape or a chimp. We are not caged animals - and we need enough calories, and (good) fat to keep our brains functioning properly.

That said, I could probably eat 2500 cal a day ad lib. On my 1600-1800 cal I am pretty close to 30% restricted. But I have no intention of going lower than my present 108 or so pounds on a 5'4 " frame. Besides the aforementioned reasons, if illness should occur, I want to have some " reserve " body fat. Nor do I want to invite all the usual CRON maladies that come from severe CRON like anemia, osteoporosis etc.

on 9/2/2006 11:04 PM, frank brown at fb0252@... wrote:

ok, tell us, why do u avoid severe (presuming 30%) cron. they do it

with rats and they live longer. the 10% rats live barely longer. a

rat would do better on melatonin than 10% cron.

[Guest guest]

txs for responding. these cr boards are " one " of my sources of

health info. so, correct, i have yet to read the files. i would

prefer actually to read about cr on the posts. truth of the matter

these boards are only a little about cr and seem to merely post health

studies found elsewhere. that is other than a complaint, but, i

prefer actually to read about cr, cr experiences and those actually on

cr. eg. your claiming that 1600-1800 calories a day for a person 5'4 "

is 30% cr whereas the cr blogs i read have women of similar height

claiming 1100-1200 calories is 30% cr. i'm sure there are formulas.

BUT, the other info in the post below also seems very puzzling.

unknown to me why someone would be unable to get sufficient body fat,

or suffer bone loss, or have any other nutritional deficiency except

calories on an extreme cron diet. additionally, i am unable to

imagine anyone going through all this trouble doing what is actually

10% cr or less and get a couple of extra years of life. makes zero

sense and could be achieved more easily and comfortably using

different methods. the only point of all this as i see it is a hope

for significant life extension. from what little i know that comes

only from extreme cron, which i understand to be 30% calorie

restriction. since for myself 2000 calories/day probably is an

equilibrium point where i get sufficient calories without any weight

loss at 6 ft. 1 inch average build, im presuming extreme cron for me

would be 70% of 2000 calories or about 1400 calories per day. this

would imo from what little i know simulate the monkeys. im also

wondering if there is a monkey website. do they publish their

progress or just give periodic reports.

> I assume from this question that you haven't read our files. They

address

> " moderate " CRON vs. " extreme " CRON and why " moderate " may be better for

> humans. There's also a post in that file from " ' and his bad

> experience with the " gray zone " and extreme CRON.

>

> We are not rats. And even though the primate tests are also going

well, we

> are a different kind of primate than an ape or a chimp. We are not

caged

> animals - and we need enough calories, and (good) fat to keep our brains

> functioning properly.

>

> That said, I could probably eat 2500 cal a day ad lib. On my

1600-1800 cal

> I am pretty close to 30% restricted. But I have no intention of

going lower

> than my present 108 or so pounds on a 5'4 " frame. Besides the

> aforementioned reasons, if illness should occur, I want to have some

> " reserve " body fat. Nor do I want to invite all the usual CRON maladies

> that come from severe CRON like anemia, osteoporosis etc.

>

>

> on 9/2/2006 11:04 PM, frank brown at fb0252@... wrote:

>

> ok, tell us, why do u avoid severe (presuming 30%) cron. they do it

> with rats and they live longer. the 10% rats live barely longer. a

> rat would do better on melatonin than 10% cron.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

First, it may save YOUR time to not read the files and then post

questions and make statements about things that have been extensively

discussed previously, or are covered in the files. But it doesn't

help the other 2100 members of the site. Nor does it help the

manager manage this site, which has over 2000 members and ~two new

members on average joining every day. Fortunately, almost all the

other new members read the files, and Walford, first. Then they do

not have many questions.

Second, if you had made the effort to read just the description of

this site, located at the top of the home page which you presumably

see each time you log in, you would have known that, while CR is the

main topic, also of relevance here is: " ........ state-of-the-art

information for a healthier, longer life " . So if you are looking for

a site that posts *only* CR information, as it seems you do, this is

not the one.

Third, you complain that at people: " ....... seem

to merely post health studies found elsewhere. " Here serious

evidence is required for claims made as, again, you would know if you

had read the description of this site at the top of the home

page: " We value published, peer-reviewed, mainstream scientific

sources ........ " . So if it hasn't been published elsewhere then,

pretty much by definition, it doesn't qualify to be posted here,

although exceptions are made depending on the circumstances,

especially regarding the source.

Fourth, if you are not aware of potential issues related to bone loss

with CR then you have a lot to learn. And bone loss is not the only

issue about which caution is probably appropriate.

Fifth, you seem to be interested only in " extreme CRON " . Again, you

would know, had you taken the trouble to read the site description

that it says: " ........... CRON can be easily achieved by anyone,

and need not be complex or extreme to achieve better health " . This

might have given you a hint that the person who founded the site six

years ago, and wrote the site description, wanted to be cautious to

ensure people were not encouraged to do things which might, possibly,

harm their health in the long run.

Sixth, we are all free agents here. We are all capable of, and are

responsible to ourselves for, deciding where we should " place our

bets " in the interests of optimizing our health. But make no

mistake, health science in general, and CR in particular, especially

as it relates to humans, is still far from being thoroughly

understood. If you decide you want to take extreme bets with *your*

health, that is your prerogative. But it is not recommended here.

So my suggestion is that you read Walford first. Then read the

site's files. Then read at least the abstract of the studies listed

in the files. Then search the archives here for issues about which

you feel you need clarification. A lot of water has flowed under the

bridge here the past six years, much of it you will likely find

valuable. After doing this, you will have a better perspective of

what this site is about.

Welcome.

Rodney.

> >

> > ok, tell us, why do u avoid severe (presuming 30%) cron. they do

it

> > with rats and they live longer. the 10% rats live barely

longer. a

> > rat would do better on melatonin than 10% cron.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I would concur with . I " m 38 and used to lift a fair amount, 3X week

and was probably ~15 lbs heavier. Now that I am a light-CRONie, I still

lift 1-2X per week but generally at lower weight/more reps and I do more

aerobic work.

I'm trying to keep my lean mass and strength (for my 2 kids!) as well as

the positive mood lift I get from lifting and feeling in shape. Very

different goals from when I was a young firebrand.

Eating well and getting adequate rest go a lot further for me now; it's

not that I can't exercise hard anymore, its my recovery that takes longer.

-Will

Hi: You don't mention your age so I will guess that you are younger

rather than older.

Yes, strictly speaking energy restriction is inconsistent with

accumulating excessive lean body mass. The extra body weight requires

extra calories to support. If you are energy restricted your body

will consume fat and muscle mass to try to make up the deficit.

That said I lift 3x a week. While I bench press 20# more than I

weight, it's less than I pressed before I lost weight. If you train

and energy restrict your body will remodel and reduce the muscles you

don't use in favor of those you do.

There is no reason why you can't practice moderate energy restriction

along with moderate body building. Both will be compromised somewhat

but it ultimately comes down to personal choices and what it takes to

maintain a high quality of life in your opinion.

I would say no matter what particular path you may choose, first

focus on getting adequate nutrition and avoiding bad foods (like

trans-fats). How you practice your energy intake/energy expenditure

balance, is matter of personal choice and likely to change over time.

As long as you avoid the more excessive practices of body building

(steroids, etc.) you shouldn't do permanent damage and your main

risk is burning the candle a little too brightly. It's your candle so

burn it for best effect.

JR

On Sep 2, 2006, at 1:01 PM, reb_el wrote:

> Hi. I've been lurking here for a few months. I'm interested in

> trying CRON (or perhaps intermittent fasting) but I have a concern.

> I am an amateur bodybuilder, and although I am by no means a

> Schwarzenegger and never will be, I am concerned that calorie

> restriction taken to CRON standards would cause me to lose what

> muscle I've gained thus far, or at the very least keep me from

> developing any more. I am also concerned that such austere calorie

> restriction will rob me of the energy I need to work out

> effectively. Does anyone here have, or know of, any experience with

> bodybuilding and CRON? Can one reasonably do both, or are they

> necessarily mutually exclusive?

>

> I don't currently monitor my calorie intake now, I only try to eat

> healthy such as fruits, veggies and low fat dairy for protein (I'm a

> L/O herbivore) and eat no more than to satisfy physical hunger.

> Well, there is the 'occasional' binge.

>

> Thanks.

>

> -Rick

>

>

>

Jewell, Ph.D.

Campus Mass Spectrometry Facilities

UC

[Guest guest]

I've been bodybuilding for more than half my life now. I've never

been fat, but I used to weigh 175. I now weigh about 135. I have

never been so ripped in my life, that's for sure. However, I have

lost size and strength and I certainly do get more tired at the gym.

I have cut back on the total amount of exercise I do, but I'm very

pleased with the results. I simply don't need to exercise as much to

keep the fat off and I still have a lot of quality muscle. If you're

happy being a lightweight, ripped bodybuilder, then CR may be for you.

When I tell people I weigh only 135, they are quite surprised. I

thought I'd be rail-thin at this weight too, but that is not the case.

(I'm 5'8 " by the way.)

>

> Hi. I've been lurking here for a few months. I'm interested in

> trying CRON (or perhaps intermittent fasting) but I have a concern.

> I am an amateur bodybuilder, and although I am by no means a

> Schwarzenegger and never will be, I am concerned that calorie

> restriction taken to CRON standards would cause me to lose what

> muscle I've gained thus far, or at the very least keep me from

> developing any more. I am also concerned that such austere calorie

> restriction will rob me of the energy I need to work out

> effectively. Does anyone here have, or know of, any experience with

> bodybuilding and CRON? Can one reasonably do both, or are they

> necessarily mutually exclusive?

>

> I don't currently monitor my calorie intake now, I only try to eat

> healthy such as fruits, veggies and low fat dairy for protein (I'm a

> L/O herbivore) and eat no more than to satisfy physical hunger.

> Well, there is the 'occasional' binge.

>

> Thanks.

>

> -Rick

>