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Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule

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As an alternative to the proposed excessive treatment rule I suggest

that the OBCE provide itself as a friend of the insurance industry in

court proceedings where excessive treatment is alleged. With this type

of testimony there should be no problem for the court to rule in favor

of fair treatment guidelines.

Simply put?

The OBCE will draft administrative rules that would allow it to testify

for or against chiropractors in Oregon who have exceeded the written

guidelines for professional conduct. The OBCE would provide such expert

testimony to any who wish to purchase the same.

Adavantages:

1. low cost, as we do not spend the money on prosecution.

2. Make a profit as the insurer would surely pay to get the testimony

3. Control the IME problems by providing the best possible witness for

concluding a case where an IME has created a loophole for insurers to

crawl through.

4. Prevents the rotten apples from spoiling the whole barrel.

Disavantages:

1. your turn.

Willard Bertrand, D.C.

Fw: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

> >

> >

> > > Vern

> > > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs

in

any

> > third

> > > party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority

to

> > receive and

> > > investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat

> > excessively.

> > > We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at

both

sides

> > of any

> > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over

charging

> > and make

> > > recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for

ANOTHER

> > > Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme

over

> > reaction to

> > > pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the

> > Chiropractic

> > > profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990.

> > >

> > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our

place " ,

> > is

> > > that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or

excessive

> > charging.

> > > For BOTH sides of the equation.

> > >

> > > I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get

new

> > patients

> > > that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any

> > improvement are

> > > told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon

as

they

> > feel a

> > > little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve

and

> > they

> > > still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten

DC's

that

> > only

> > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have

reached

> > > " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in

5-6

> > visits.

> > > This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best

is

> > short

> > > sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a

multi-faceted

issue.

> > >

> > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very

closely

> > at

> > > implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art

Croft

> > > developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome

studies.

> > These

> > > studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment

regimen

> > that

> > > has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients

injured

in

> > motor

> > > vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late

Whiplash "

> > > issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash

injury

> > > (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a

treatment

> > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to

educate

> > not

> > > only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr.

Croft's

> > > guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of

San

> > Diego

> > > (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line.

> > >

> > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and

in

the

> > least

> > > inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the

injury

> > sustained

> > > has caused structural and functional disability that requires

years of

> > > treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have

> > permanent

> > > impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When

was

the

> > last

> > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?)

Therefore,

one

> > must

> > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them

to

there

> > > pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk

factors

> > or

> > > other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious

injury

or

> > for a

> > > poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific

literature

> > verifies the

> > > known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially

in

> > Cervical

> > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include:

> > > 1) Female gender

> > > 2) History of prior spinal injury

> > > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile

male)

> > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts

> > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point

restraints)

> > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index

> > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped)

> > > 8) Non-failure of seat back

> > > 9) Having the head turned at impact

> > > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact.

> > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

> > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position

> > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater)

> > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph

> > >

> > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late

> > whiplash,

> > > including:

> > > 1) Female gender

> > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index)

> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)

and/or

severe

> > > initial symptoms

> > > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs.

> > > 5) Initial back pain

> > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment

> > > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms

> > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain;

non-use

had

> > > a protective effect.

> > > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM

> > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms

> > > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache

> > > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs

> > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis

> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

> > > 15) Front seat position

> > >

> > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether

there

were

> > > complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term

treatment

> > or

> > > disability?, i.e.:

> > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc.

> > > 2) Lower BMI

> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)

and/or

> > > severe initial symptoms

> > > 4) Initial back pain

> > > 5) Spondylosis

> > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness

> > > 7) Facet arthrosis

> > > 8) History of neck pain or headaches

> > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides

> > > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine

> > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy.

> > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve

> > > 13) Scoliosis

> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond

> > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery

> > > 16) Front seat position in car

> > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery

> > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture

> > > 19) Osteoporosis

> > > 20) Osseous diseases

> > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis

> > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia

> > > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history

and

the

> > DC's

> > > chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner.

> > >

> > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what?

> > Compared to

> > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD,

Radiology,

> > long-term

> > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with

their

> > related

> > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time,

loss of

> > familial

> > > consort, loss of social function, premature death from the

sequelae of

the

> > > effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the

quality

> > of

> > > life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the

truth

about

> > how

> > > the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be

better

> > served

> > > to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less

costly,

and

> > more

> > > efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if

we

are

> > the

> > > poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment

should

be

> > worth

> > > more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked

effect

we

> > have on

> > > the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced

> > long-term

> > > costs we actually save with our treatment.

> > >

> > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those

that

> > " think " we

> > > treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer

Review

> > Committee.

> > >

> > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

> > >

> > > G. Ray, DC

> > >

> > >

> > >

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I would also like to send a big thank you

to the OBCE. Thank you, you have done enough to help. Now please set down your

tools and go home. It is time to simply administer the tests and the rules we

have. Thank you.

Willard Bertrand, D.C.

Re:

" Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

Well put Minga....does me heart good to know we have some of

the " sharper knives in the drawer " sitting on the OBCE.

Generally its a thankless job, a huge commitment of time and

energy.....well here is one GREAT BIG THANK YOU Minga and to all the

members of the OBCE!

Vern Saboe, DC

Re:

" Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

Vern,

I am very greatful for all the work you're doing to help our profession towards

self-regulation. You are asking for DC input. You are reporting back to

us all regularly. You are clear in your motives, adgenda and goals. For those

in our profession who have no time to participate, I would urge you to please

trust the process. I trust that you, Vern, know more than I do with respect to

legislative directions. As you've put in volumes of hours for our profession.

For those of you in doubt or disagreement, please please come forward with your

time, energy and suggestions to help our profession with the problems we

currently face. If you disagree, present an alternative plan in writing at one

of the meetings, or here on this listserv. But do so immediately.

Minga Guerrero DC

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

OregonDCs

rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose

of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal

attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and

last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could

end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy,

print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been

removed.

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Dear Colleagues:

As per the need for an Administrative Rule that is specific in language so to act as a measuring stick (outcomes assessment tools) that all stakeholders can use in the realm of PIP in Oregon, to determine that chiropractic treatment frequency and duration of curative care has indeed been reasonable and necessary....

I just received a post from a colleague in another state who just reviewed a PIP case that ran right at 10 months of care and close to $19,000 in charges. Yes, we have this same level of abuse here in Oregon, what % of colleagues? I have no idea but it matters not as it will indeed be these cases that the PIP carriers will use to convince the legislators that change is needed.

In the late 80's we needed to do something about the % of the profession that were truly abusing the system of Worker's Compensation. What was missing was a universal evidence based measuring stick to apply to these casualty (accident) insurance type cases, to help determine if curative treatment had been reasonable and necessary.

Bottom-line was I heard some of the same arguments then against not "boxing ourselves in, etc.," so we did nothing and we lost nearly everything and colleagues history is about to repeat it's self in PIP if we again fail to act decisively and in a timely manner.

I would like your thoughtful comments?

Vern Saboe

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Hi Vern,

Yesterday I spoke with Mr. Phil Barnhart, State Representative for District 11 here in Eugene. He is very interested in our issues: most specifically IME and PIP. He told me about an anticipated battle during the next session but is fully 'on our side' and most interested in assisting us with this. He is a seasoned legislator with, from the discussion we had, a seemingly good understanding of our concerns. If he is already gearing up for this conversation within the legislature, it behoves us to pay attention...to put our mouths and money where our interest is, so to speak.

While we are still coordinating the dates (it will most likely happen in mid July), Mr. Barnhart is offering to meet with us here in Eugene to fully discuss our issues and concerns. He states he is very interested in our feedback.

Thank you, Uncle Vern, for setting the stage for this meeting. I call on DCs throughout the state (and especially here in Eugene) to attend this session. It promises to be most informative. We will get the date to you asap so you can mark your calendars.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DCFibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon59 Santa Clara St.,Eugene, Oregon, 97404541-689-0935

"Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Dear Colleagues:

As per the need for an Administrative Rule that is specific in language so to act as a measuring stick (outcomes assessment tools) that all stakeholders can use in the realm of PIP in Oregon, to determine that chiropractic treatment frequency and duration of curative care has indeed been reasonable and necessary....

I just received a post from a colleague in another state who just reviewed a PIP case that ran right at 10 months of care and close to $19,000 in charges. Yes, we have this same level of abuse here in Oregon, what % of colleagues? I have no idea but it matters not as it will indeed be these cases that the PIP carriers will use to convince the legislators that change is needed.

In the late 80's we needed to do something about the % of the profession that were truly abusing the system of Worker's Compensation. What was missing was a universal evidence based measuring stick to apply to these casualty (accident) insurance type cases, to help determine if curative treatment had been reasonable and necessary.

Bottom-line was I heard some of the same arguments then against not "boxing ourselves in, etc.," so we did nothing and we lost nearly everything and colleagues history is about to repeat it's self in PIP if we again fail to act decisively and in a timely manner.

I would like your thoughtful comments?

Vern Saboe

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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Vern,

I am very greatful for all the work you're doing to help our profession towards self-regulation. You are asking for DC input. You are reporting back to us all regularly. You are clear in your motives, adgenda and goals. For those in our profession who have no time to participate, I would urge you to please trust the process. I trust that you, Vern, know more than I do with respect to legislative directions. As you've put in volumes of hours for our profession. For those of you in doubt or disagreement, please please come forward with your time, energy and suggestions to help our profession with the problems we currently face. If you disagree, present an alternative plan in writing at one of the meetings, or here on this listserv. But do so immediately.

Minga Guerrero DC

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Howdy:

While I certainly don't know the details in this particular case, I'd like to see what clinical findings supported the average $1900/month/10 months for chiropractic care.....with the appropriate documentation there may be no problem at all in demonstrating this level of care is needed.....

On the other hand, in way too many instances in the past, chiros have failed to document exactly the exam findings and progress or lack thereof that gives credible support for rational care of this intensity....

J. Pedersen DC

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Garreth,

Xs care is absolutely not defined by time alone. And I'm sure Vern didn't intend that message. I think the key parts of his email, as I remember, were that there were no re-exam or objective justifications for continued care. that picture combined with an inflated fee, will do harm to the patient's case. The patient you describe sounds like an easy exception to continued care. It could also justify more drastic measures to stabalize. Just document the exams, treatments and outcomes. I've seen poor documentation ruin a great case. It's so sad when a patient comes to your office after months of poorly documented care. The bill is incredibly high. PIP is nearly exhausted and the patient is still in significant pain. I've been in business for 20 years and have no idea how long you've been practicing. Please rest assured that the vast majority of chiropractors understand the need for continuing care when there are circumstances beyond normal. Diabetes, previous surgery, pregnancy, rheumatoid arthritis and age of patient just to name a few. I've never seen or heard any docs at the meetings in peer review or with rules advisory committee neglect to think of these possibilities. That said, I've also never heard of any plan to give exact weeks for care of a given condition. It can't be done. there are too many variables. I think the rules that are being suggested are simply for a group of peers to be able to evaluate our work and see if it's reasonable when a complaint is filed. BTW, I'm not speaking for Vern, just my very own opinion of what I percieve from the time I've volunteered.

Minga Guerrero DC

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Exactly Jack you hit the nail on the head. A lot of our problem is not true excessive treatment but rather very likely problematic medi-legal musculoskeletal cases that are indeed receiving appropriate care, it's just that the documentation is missing.

This proposed administrative rule would force the issue of generating proper documentation of injury (evidence based outcome assessments, both subjective patient driven and objective doctor driven), a progression of care, and as such help to determine both when the patient has reached maximal chiropractic improvement and if there is any spinal impairment/residuals requiring supportive care.

Vern Saboe

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Howdy:

While I certainly don't know the details in this particular case, I'd like to see what clinical findings supported the average $1900/month/10 months for chiropractic care.....with the appropriate documentation there may be no problem at all in demonstrating this level of care is needed.....

On the other hand, in way too many instances in the past, chiros have failed to document exactly the exam findings and progress or lack thereof that gives credible support for rational care of this intensity....

J. Pedersen DC

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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Well put Minga....does me heart good to know we have some of the "sharper knives in the drawer" sitting on the OBCE. Generally its a thankless job, a huge commitment of time and energy.....well here is one GREAT BIG THANK YOU Minga and to all the members of the OBCE!

Vern Saboe, DC

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Vern,I am very greatful for all the work you're doing to help our profession towards self-regulation. You are asking for DC input. You are reporting back to us all regularly. You are clear in your motives, adgenda and goals. For those in our profession who have no time to participate, I would urge you to please trust the process. I trust that you, Vern, know more than I do with respect to legislative directions. As you've put in volumes of hours for our profession. For those of you in doubt or disagreement, please please come forward with your time, energy and suggestions to help our profession with the problems we currently face. If you disagree, present an alternative plan in writing at one of the meetings, or here on this listserv. But do so immediately. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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Vern et al, When I returned from practicing in Hawaii in 1996 I presented cases of impairment based upion the current AMA guides as a Certified Impairment Rating DC, through LACC as instructed by Stan Kaplan, the long standing expert in the field of impairment rating. I was told by attorneys and insurance carriers that my rating would not be given weight in this state, even though my impairment ratings were frequently the decisive factor in the outcome of workers comp settlements, and no fault settlements and arbitrations in Hawaii.(and in the 80's here)

I recall in the early eighties when Mazion certified a bunch of us here in Oregon in Impairment rating that our opinions meant something, so my question is will excessive treatment rules lead to our being recognized more in the future than we are presently or is our destiny unrelated to any actions we may make at this time?

I am not opposed to the concept of cleaning up the fringe, just nervous that it won't accomplish what the intent is, but just create big grief for some unsuspecting honest DC, who happens to not have done his/her due diligence regarding assessments, but may very well have done just fine treating the patient.

In 2002 a paper review and IME was performed on a patient of mine who underwent cervical fusion, after a year or more of chiropractic care and many other opinions at my request and at the request of the carrier.

One neurologist stated that I had "provided excessive chart notes, over one and one half inches thick", and went on to say that my diagnosis and content of my notes were irrelevant. I was the one who dx'd the exact level of the lesion, (confirmed shortly therafter by MRI) after she had been diagnoised with cervical strain. We all do that day in and out, don't we? But nobody is noticing,(except for the neurosurgeons who are on the receiving end of our referrals, not out of respect for our abilities, but for the work,and appreciate us for that, but rarely would in public give credit where credit is due).

It seems that no matter what we do there will always be disregard, disrespect, etc. and if we don't remember that we are setting ourselves up for further disappointments and future finger pointing(within our ranks) depending on which way the wind is blowing.

Too bad we can't survive on cash paying folks, because as I see it that would be the one true way to win a full blown victory. Never happen, and that is the shame.

Your devils advocate, Sherm

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Howdy:

While I certainly don't know the details in this particular case, I'd like to see what clinical findings supported the average $1900/month/10 months for chiropractic care.....with the appropriate documentation there may be no problem at all in demonstrating this level of care is needed.....

On the other hand, in way too many instances in the past, chiros have failed to document exactly the exam findings and progress or lack thereof that gives credible support for rational care of this intensity....

J. Pedersen DC

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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Minga, I think if you obtain a copy of Art Croft's book or if you have it, review the section on treatment guidelines. These are very specific but allow for latitude depending on a varity of variables. Sincerely, Sherm

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Garreth,Xs care is absolutely not defined by time alone. And I'm sure Vern didn't intend that message. I think the key parts of his email, as I remember, were that there were no re-exam or objective justifications for continued care. that picture combined with an inflated fee, will do harm to the patient's case. The patient you describe sounds like an easy exception to continued care. It could also justify more drastic measures to stabalize. Just document the exams, treatments and outcomes. I've seen poor documentation ruin a great case. It's so sad when a patient comes to your office after months of poorly documented care. The bill is incredibly high. PIP is nearly exhausted and the patient is still in significant pain. I've been in business for 20 years and have no idea how long you've been practicing. Please rest assured that the vast majority of chiropractors understand the need for continuing care when there are circumstances beyond normal. Diabetes, previous surgery, pregnancy, rheumatoid arthritis and age of patient just to name a few. I've never seen or heard any docs at the meetings in peer review or with rules advisory committee neglect to think of these possibilities. That said, I've also never heard of any plan to give exact weeks for care of a given condition. It can't be done. there are too many variables. I think the rules that are being suggested are simply for a group of peers to be able to evaluate our work and see if it's reasonable when a complaint is filed. BTW, I'm not speaking for Vern, just my very own opinion of what I percieve from the time I've volunteered. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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Vern

There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any third

party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to receive and

investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat excessively.

We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides of any

issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging and make

recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER

Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over reaction to

pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the Chiropractic

profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990.

What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , is

that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive charging.

For BOTH sides of the equation.

I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new patients

that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any improvement are

told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they feel a

little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and they

still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that only

treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached

" MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 visits.

This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is short

sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue.

I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely at

implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft

developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. These

studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen that

has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in motor

vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash "

issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury

(without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment

longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate not

only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's

guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San Diego

(SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line.

Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the least

inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury sustained

has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of

treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have permanent

impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the last

time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one must

ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there

pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors or

other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or for a

poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature verifies the

known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in Cervical

Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include:

1) Female gender

2) History of prior spinal injury

3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male)

4) Rear vs. other vector impacts

5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints)

6) Body mass index/head neck index

7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped)

8) Non-failure of seat back

9) Having the head turned at impact

10) Non-awareness of impending impact.

11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

12) Front vs. rear seat position

13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater)

14) Crash speed under 10 mph

Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late whiplash,

including:

1) Female gender

2) Lower BMI (body mass index)

3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe

initial symptoms

4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs.

5) Initial back pain

6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment

7) Greater number of initial symptoms

8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had a

protective effect.

9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM

10) Initial neurological symptoms

11) Past history of neck pain or headache

12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs

13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis

14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

15) Front seat position

Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were

complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment or

disability?, i.e.:

1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc.

2) Lower BMI

3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe

initial symptoms

4) Initial back pain

5) Spondylosis

6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness

7) Facet arthrosis

8) History of neck pain or headaches

9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides

10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine

11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy.

12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve

13) Scoliosis

14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond

15) Prior cervical spinal surgery

16) Front seat position in car

17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery

18) Prior vertebral fracture

19) Osteoporosis

20) Osseous diseases

21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis

22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia

Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the DC's

chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner.

Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? Compared to

spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, long-term

pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their related

costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of familial

consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the

effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality of

life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about how

the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better served

to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and more

efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are the

poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be worth

more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we have on

the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced long-term

costs we actually save with our treatment.

My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that " think " we

treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review Committee.

But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

G. Ray, DC

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Vern

There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any third

party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to receive and

investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat excessively.

We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides of any

issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging and make

recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER

Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over reaction to

pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the Chiropractic

profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990.

What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , is

that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive charging.

For BOTH sides of the equation.

I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new patients

that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any improvement are

told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they feel a

little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and they

still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that only

treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached

" MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 visits.

This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is short

sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue.

I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely at

implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft

developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. These

studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen that

has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in motor

vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash "

issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury

(without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment

longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate not

only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's

guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San Diego

(SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line.

Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the least

inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury sustained

has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of

treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have permanent

impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the last

time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one must

ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there

pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors or

other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or for a

poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature verifies the

known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in Cervical

Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include:

1) Female gender

2) History of prior spinal injury

3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male)

4) Rear vs. other vector impacts

5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints)

6) Body mass index/head neck index

7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped)

8) Non-failure of seat back

9) Having the head turned at impact

10) Non-awareness of impending impact.

11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

12) Front vs. rear seat position

13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater)

14) Crash speed under 10 mph

Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late whiplash,

including:

1) Female gender

2) Lower BMI (body mass index)

3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe

initial symptoms

4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs.

5) Initial back pain

6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment

7) Greater number of initial symptoms

8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had

a protective effect.

9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM

10) Initial neurological symptoms

11) Past history of neck pain or headache

12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs

13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis

14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

15) Front seat position

Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were

complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment or

disability?, i.e.:

1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc.

2) Lower BMI

3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or

severe initial symptoms

4) Initial back pain

5) Spondylosis

6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness

7) Facet arthrosis

8) History of neck pain or headaches

9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides

10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine

11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy.

12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve

13) Scoliosis

14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond

15) Prior cervical spinal surgery

16) Front seat position in car

17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery

18) Prior vertebral fracture

19) Osteoporosis

20) Osseous diseases

21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis

22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia

Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the DC's

chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner.

Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? Compared to

spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, long-term

pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their related

costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of familial

consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the

effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality of

life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about how

the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better served

to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and more

efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are the

poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be worth

more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we have on

the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced long-term

costs we actually save with our treatment.

My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that " think " we

treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review Committee.

But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

G. Ray, DC

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Minga: Why not just leave the whole issue to peer review? It sounds like their department. We already have a mechanism in place for complaints and disputes. Let's use it, instead of adding more bureaucracy. Ann Goldeen

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Garreth,Xs care is absolutely not defined by time alone. And I'm sure Vern didn't intend that message. I think the key parts of his email, as I remember, were that there were no re-exam or objective justifications for continued care. that picture combined with an inflated fee, will do harm to the patient's case. The patient you describe sounds like an easy exception to continued care. It could also justify more drastic measures to stabalize. Just document the exams, treatments and outcomes. I've seen poor documentation ruin a great case. It's so sad when a patient comes to your office after months of poorly documented care. The bill is incredibly high. PIP is nearly exhausted and the patient is still in significant pain. I've been in business for 20 years and have no idea how long you've been practicing. Please rest assured that the vast majority of chiropractors understand the need for continuing care when there are circumstances beyond normal. Diabetes, previous surgery, pre! gnancy, rheumatoid arthritis and age of patient just to name a few. I've never seen or heard any docs at the meetings in peer review or with rules advisory committee neglect to think of these possibilities. That said, I've also never heard of any plan to give exact weeks for care of a given condition. It can't be done. there are too many variables. I think the rules that are being suggested are simply for a group of peers to be able to evaluate our work and see if it's reasonable when a complaint is filed. BTW, I'm not speaking for Vern, just my very own opinion of what I percieve from the time I've volunteered. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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Dear Docs,

I can't emphasis enough that if you are doing PIP work to get educated beyond your general background. Several people are saying this now, and it's nice to know that docs are doing their homework. Check out Art Croft, Dan , Melton, and of course our own Freeman, DeShaw, and Bob Pfeiffer (I know there are others, but I can't write 'em all down). If you have never read Croft's book, and you think you know MVCs - think again. I have had the book almost two years and I'm still digesting it. (then again - I'm a little slow...) Melton has an excellent binder that has tremendous amounts of info in it that 1) comes with a CD ROM and 2) is updated every year. I provided a link for those of you interested.

I'm not preaching that "you don't know this, and you don't know that". What I'm saying is if more and more of us knew this stuff, it would be easier to dispute the "junk science". Just ask Freeman about "junk science" if you want to see him go off...

Sincerely,

Matt Terreri, DC

PS: If you really want to get crazy, take Freeman's masters program soon to be offered at WSCC. The bottom line is one weekend seminar on this stuff ain't enough! (in my opinion).

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Garreth,Xs care is absolutely not defined by time alone. And I'm sure Vern didn't intend that message. I think the key parts of his email, as I remember, were that there were no re-exam or objective justifications for continued care. that picture combined with an inflated fee, will do harm to the patient's case. The patient you describe sounds like an easy exception to continued care. It could also justify more drastic measures to stabalize. Just document the exams, treatments and outcomes. I've seen poor documentation ruin a great case. It's so sad when a patient comes to your office after months of poorly documented care. The bill is incredibly high. PIP is nearly exhausted and the patient is still in significant pain. I've been in business for 20 years and have no idea how long you've been practicing. Please rest assured that the vast majority of chiropractors understand the need for continuing care when there are circumstances beyond normal. Diabetes, previous surgery, pregnancy, rheumatoid arthritis and age of patient just to name a few. I've never seen or heard any docs at the meetings in peer review or with rules advisory committee neglect to think of these possibilities. That said, I've also never heard of any plan to give exact weeks for care of a given condition. It can't be done. there are too many variables. I think the rules that are being suggested are simply for a group of peers to be able to evaluate our work and see if it's reasonable when a complaint is filed. BTW, I'm not speaking for Vern, just my very own opinion of what I percieve from the time I've volunteered. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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I would be interested in knowing how many Oregon DC's have a copy of Art

Croft's book now I believe in the third edition. It should be required

reading/.text in all Chiropractic Colleges . I also wonder how many Oregon

DC's have attended the seminars listed in other posts, , etc. Dan

Dock, puts on a good seminar and is around quite often, at a very

reasonable cost I might add. I am interested particularly whether board

members, peer review members, are up to date on the information provided in

these specific courses, and don't rely on the local conventions, or WSCC

annual homecomings for their con't ed hours. And of a very big concern

are the field doctors who never participate in these discussions. As I

stated in a previous post, specifics are essential if we are going to create

this program. As Dr. Ray elaborated upon in detail, the guidelines published

by Croft are just that and lend themselves to accomplish what well meaning

DC's such as Vern intend, but lets face it , what the powers to be are after

is not this at all but " 12 visits in thirty days " regardless of what is

necessary, relevant, fair, justified by published literature. Let's not play

into their hands.The funny thing is that " they " might not even be in

influential positions currently but may show up down the road to interpret

vague language any way they can to meet their end.

I can only support movement toward these rules if guidelines which reflect

the real world are incorporated.

Have a good day. Sherm

Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

> Vern

> There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any

third party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to

receive and investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or

treat excessively. We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can

look at both sides of any issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over

treatment or over charging and make recommendations to the OBCE for action.

Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my

opinion, an extreme over reaction to pressure from outside influences, whose

only motive is to use the Chiropractic profession as its " whipping boy "

again as it did in 1990.

>

> What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " ,

is that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive

charging. For BOTH sides of the equation.

>

> I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new

patients that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any

improvement are told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as

soon as they feel a little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did

not improve and they still have the same problems they started with. If you

have ten DC's that only treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them

from care as have reached " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients

get " well " in 5-6 visits. This cannot be considered, by any measure,

scientific, and at best is short sighted, and is an extremely subjective

approach to a multi-faceted issue.

>

> I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely

at implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft

developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies.

These studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment

regimen that has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients

injured in motor vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop

" Late Whiplash " issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II

whiplash injury (without neurological signs or other complicating factors)

has a treatment longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We

need to educate not only the insurance industry, but also our own

colleagues. Dr. Croft's guidelines can be accessed through the Spine

Research Institute of San Diego (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are

on-line.

>

> Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the

least inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury

sustained has caused structural and functional disability that requires

years of treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have

permanent impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When

was the last time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?)

Therefore, one must ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it

returned them to there pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were

there risk factors or other complicating factors, or other factors for a

more serious injury or for a poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing

scientific literature verifies the known risk factors for injury and for a

poor prognosis, especially in Cervical Acceleration-Deceleration trauma

(CADS). These include:

> 1) Female gender

> 2) History of prior spinal injury

> 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male)

> 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts

> 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints)

> 6) Body mass index/head neck index

> 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped)

> 8) Non-failure of seat back

> 9) Having the head turned at impact

> 10) Non-awareness of impending impact.

> 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

> 12) Front vs. rear seat position

> 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater)

> 14) Crash speed under 10 mph

>

> Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late

whiplash, including:

> 1) Female gender

> 2) Lower BMI (body mass index)

> 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe

initial symptoms

> 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs.

> 5) Initial back pain

> 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment

> 7) Greater number of initial symptoms

> 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had

a protective effect.

> 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM

> 10) Initial neurological symptoms

> 11) Past history of neck pain or headache

> 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs

> 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis

> 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

> 15) Front seat position

>

> Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were

complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment

or disability?, i.e.:

> 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc.

> 2) Lower BMI

> 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or

severe initial symptoms

> 4) Initial back pain

> 5) Spondylosis

> 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness

> 7) Facet arthrosis

> 8) History of neck pain or headaches

> 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides

> 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine

> 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy.

> 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve

> 13) Scoliosis

> 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond

> 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery

> 16) Front seat position in car

> 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery

> 18) Prior vertebral fracture

> 19) Osteoporosis

> 20) Osseous diseases

> 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis

> 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia

> Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the

DC's chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner.

>

> Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what?

Compared to spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD,

Radiology, long-term pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad

nauseum, with their related costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs

of lost time, loss of familial consort, loss of social function, premature

death from the sequelae of the effects of the injury and the gradual, stead

deterioration of the quality of life? Personally, it is about time that we

tell the world the truth about how the insurance industry is duping the

public. Our efforts will be better served to broadcast to the public that

we are more effective, less costly, and more efficient than any other form

of treatment and stop acting as if we are the poor cousins in the health

care delivery field. Our treatment should be worth more than standard

medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we have on the

functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced long-term

costs we actually save with our treatment.

>

> My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that

" think " we treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer

Review Committee.

>

> But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

>

> G. Ray, DC

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his

or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

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Sherm,

For the record. .

.. ;-)

I have taken @ 60 hours from Dr Dan Dock,

DC and have perused Art Crofts book. Am currently attempting

to digest it more thoroughly.

I would agree with the earlier comment regarding cont. ed in the PIP arena. Definitely will help

bring a doctor current on research and treatment protocol.

Enjoyed meeting you at the Minnis

fundraiser, will have to get together soon and swing the sticks.

Sincerely, J. Vissers, D.C.

From: Sherman

[mailto:tsherm@...]

Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:57

AM

Vern Saboe DC;

mottray@...

Cc: Oregondcs

Subject: Re:

" Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

I would be interested in knowing how many Oregon DC's

have a copy of Art

Croft's book

now I believe in the third edition. It should be required

reading/.text

in all Chiropractic Colleges . I also wonder how many Oregon

DC's have

attended the seminars listed in other posts, , etc. Dan

Dock,

puts on a good seminar and is around quite often, at a very

reasonable

cost I might add. I am interested particularly whether board

members,

peer review members, are up to date on the information provided in

these

specific courses, and don't rely on the local conventions, or WSCC

annual

homecomings for their con't ed hours. And of a very big

concern

are the

field doctors who never participate in these discussions. As I

stated in a

previous post, specifics are essential if we are going to create

this

program. As Dr. Ray elaborated upon in detail, the guidelines published

by Croft are

just that and lend themselves to accomplish what well meaning

DC's such as

Vern intend, but lets face it , what the powers to be are after

is not this

at all but " 12 visits in thirty days " regardless of what is

necessary,

relevant, fair, justified by published literature. Let's not play

into their

hands.The funny thing is that " they " might not even be in

influential

positions currently but may show up down the road to interpret

vague

language any way they can to meet their end.

I can only

support movement toward these rules if guidelines which reflect

the real

world are incorporated.

Have a good

day. Sherm

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

> >

> >

> > > Vern

> > > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in

any

> > third

> > > party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to

> > receive and

> > > investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat

> > excessively.

> > > We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both

sides

> > of any

> > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over

charging

> > and make

> > > recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for

ANOTHER

> > > Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over

> > reaction to

> > > pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the

> > Chiropractic

> > > profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990.

> > >

> > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our

place " ,

> > is

> > > that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive

> > charging.

> > > For BOTH sides of the equation.

> > >

> > > I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new

> > patients

> > > that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any

> > improvement are

> > > told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as

they

> > feel a

> > > little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and

> > they

> > > still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's

that

> > only

> > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have

reached

> > > " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6

> > visits.

> > > This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is

> > short

> > > sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted

issue.

> > >

> > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very

closely

> > at

> > > implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft

> > > developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome

studies.

> > These

> > > studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment

regimen

> > that

> > > has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured

in

> > motor

> > > vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late

Whiplash "

> > > issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash

injury

> > > (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a

treatment

> > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to

educate

> > not

> > > only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's

> > > guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San

> > Diego

> > > (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line.

> > >

> > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in

the

> > least

> > > inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury

> > sustained

> > > has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of

> > > treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have

> > permanent

> > > impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was

the

> > last

> > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore,

one

> > must

> > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to

there

> > > pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk

factors

> > or

> > > other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury

or

> > for a

> > > poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature

> > verifies the

> > > known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in

> > Cervical

> > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include:

> > > 1) Female gender

> > > 2) History of prior spinal injury

> > > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male)

> > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts

> > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point

restraints)

> > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index

> > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped)

> > > 8) Non-failure of seat back

> > > 9) Having the head turned at impact

> > > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact.

> > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

> > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position

> > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater)

> > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph

> > >

> > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late

> > whiplash,

> > > including:

> > > 1) Female gender

> > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index)

> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or

severe

> > > initial symptoms

> > > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs.

> > > 5) Initial back pain

> > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment

> > > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms

> > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use

had

> > > a protective effect.

> > > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM

> > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms

> > > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache

> > > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs

> > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis

> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)

> > > 15) Front seat position

> > >

> > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there

were

> > > complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term

treatment

> > or

> > > disability?, i.e.:

> > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc.

> > > 2) Lower BMI

> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or

> > > severe initial symptoms

> > > 4) Initial back pain

> > > 5) Spondylosis

> > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness

> > > 7) Facet arthrosis

> > > 8) History of neck pain or headaches

> > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides

> > > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine

> > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy.

> > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve

> > > 13) Scoliosis

> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond

> > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery

> > > 16) Front seat position in car

> > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery

> > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture

> > > 19) Osteoporosis

> > > 20) Osseous diseases

> > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis

> > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia

> > > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and

the

> > DC's

> > > chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner.

> > >

> > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what?

> > Compared to

> > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology,

> > long-term

> > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their

> > related

> > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of

> > familial

> > > consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of

the

> > > effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the

quality

> > of

> > > life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth

about

> > how

> > > the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be

better

> > served

> > > to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly,

and

> > more

> > > efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we

are

> > the

> > > poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should

be

> > worth

> > > more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect

we

> > have on

> > > the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced

> > long-term

> > > costs we actually save with our treatment.

> > >

> > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that

> > " think " we

> > > treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review

> > Committee.

> > >

> > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

> > >

> > > G. Ray, DC

> > >

> > >

> > >

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Disadvantages. . . . . the OBCE has

already been falsely accused by some doctors of being “in bed” with

the insurance companies. This would

further perpetuate that myth.

Also, please correct me if I am mistaken,

but isn’t the OBCE supposed to regulate the profession? It would seem to me that the proposed

Administrative rule is trying to clarify “the written guidelines for

professional conduct”.

If they can write an Administrative rule

that clarifies the guidelines and allows them to testify for or against

chiropractors, why is there so much fear and hand wringing over them just

writing an Administrative rule?

For what it is worth, this is not about

caving in to the demands from outside sources. This is trying to find consensus amongst

Chiropractors regarding areas that our profession is weak and working to

improve those areas. Using a

baseball analogy, if your guy in Left field is dropping fly balls, costing you

runs, what do you do? Improve him,

replace him, or move him to DH. This

effort to address a weakness in our profession, (the inability to regulate

those that excessively treat, treat without justification, or charge excessive

fees) may not be seen by all as a weakness. However, those that are closes to the problem

(OBCE, CAO, and others) seem to agree that there are some changes that would

improve their ability to regulate those rogue chiropractors.

Let’s improve our profession by

teaching our doctors to justify our care thru outcome measurements.

J. Vissers, D.C.

From: Dr. Willard

Bertrand [mailto:mail@...]

Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 8:42 AM

'oregondc'

Subject: RE:

" Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

As an alternative to the proposed excessive treatment rule I suggest

that the OBCE provide itself as a friend of the

insurance industry in

court proceedings where excessive treatment is

alleged. With this type

of testimony there should be no problem for the

court to rule in favor

of fair treatment guidelines.

Simply put?

The OBCE will draft administrative rules that

would allow it to testify

for or against chiropractors in Oregon who have exceeded the written

guidelines for professional conduct. The OBCE

would provide such expert

testimony to any who wish to purchase the same.

Adavantages:

1. low cost, as we do not spend the money on

prosecution.

2. Make a profit as the insurer would surely pay

to get the testimony

3. Control the IME problems by providing the best

possible witness for

concluding a case where an IME has created a

loophole for insurers to

crawl through.

4. Prevents the rotten apples from spoiling the

whole barrel.

Disavantages:

1. your turn.

Willard Bertrand, D.C.

Fw: " Proposed Excessive

Treatment Admin. Rule "

Re: " Proposed

Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule "

> >

> >

> > > Vern

> > > There already exists a process for

excessive treatment and costs

in

any

> > third

> > > party payment system, including

PIP. The OBCE has the authority

to

> > receive and

> > > investigate complaints against DC's

that appear to charge or treat

> > excessively.

> > > We also have in place a Peer Review

Committee that can look at

both

sides

> > of any

> > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance

carrier) on over treatment or over

charging

> > and make

> > > recommendations to the OBCE for

action. Your " new " proposal for

ANOTHER

> > > Administrative Rule on this issue

is, in my opinion, an extreme

over

> > reaction to

> > > pressure from outside influences,

whose only motive is to use the

> > Chiropractic

> > > profession as its " whipping

boy " again as it did in 1990.

> > >

> > > What we should be telling those who

are pushing to " put us in our

place " ,

> > is

> > > that there are existing avenues to

address over treatment or

excessive

> > charging.

> > > For BOTH sides of the equation.

> > >

> > > I also have concerns about

" consensus " panels. I repeatedly get

new

> > patients

> > > that have already been to another

or other DC's, and without any

> > improvement are

> > > told they are " all well " ,

or they are released from care as soon

as

they

> > feel a

> > > little better. Yet the

patient tells me that they did not improve

and

> > they

> > > still have the same problems they

started with. If you have ten

DC's

that

> > only

> > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and

release them from care as have

reached

> > > " MMI " , then their

" consensus " is that all patients get " well " in

5-6

> > visits.

> > > This cannot be considered, by any

measure, scientific, and at best

is

> > short

> > > sighted, and is an extremely

subjective approach to a

multi-faceted

issue.

> > >

> > > I also feel strongly that we

should, as a group, be looking very

closely

> > at

> > > implementing the treatment

guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art

Croft

> > > developed, using the existing

scientific literature on outcome

studies.

> > These

> > > studies already show that

Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment

regimen

> > that

> > > has any validity in improving and

stabilizing those patients

injured

in

> > motor

> > > vehicle collision, especially CADS

and those that develop " Late

Whiplash "

> > > issues. In the Croft

guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash

injury

> > > (without neurological signs or

other complicating factors) has a

treatment

> > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up

to 34 treatments. We need to

educate

> > not

> > > only the insurance industry, but

also our own colleagues. Dr.

Croft's

> > > guidelines can be accessed through

the Spine Research Institute of

San

> > Diego

> > > (SRISD) and through CRASH.

Both are on-line.

> > >

> > > Your example of the case that cost

$19K, is at best, extreme, and

in

the

> > least

> > > inflammatory and reactionary.

There are those cases where the

injury

> > sustained

> > > has caused structural and functional

disability that requires

years of

> > > treatment, not months, and over 10%

of those injured in MVC's have

> > permanent

> > > impairment and lifetime disability

in one form or another. (When

was

the

> > last

> > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered

you that information?)

Therefore,

one

> > must

> > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the

patient in that it returned them

to

there

> > > pre-functional status? What

was the diagnosis? Were there risk

factors

> > or

> > > other complicating factors, or

other factors for a more serious

injury

or

> > for a

> > > poor prognosis? If one looks

at the existing scientific

literature

> > verifies the

> > > known risk factors for injury and

for a poor prognosis, especially

in

> > Cervical

> > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma

(CADS). These include:

> > > 1) Female gender

> > > 2) History of prior spinal injury

> > > 3) Poor head restraint

geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile

male)

> > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts

> > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder

harness (standard three-point

restraints)

> > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index

> > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g.,

leaning forward/slumped)

> > > 8) Non-failure of seat back

> > > 9) Having the head turned at impact

> > > 10) Non-awareness of impending

impact.

> > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle

age and beyond)

> > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position

> > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater

mass (i.e., 25% greater)

> > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph

> > >

> > > Additionally, the literature points

to known risk factors for late

> > whiplash,

> > > including:

> > > 1) Female gender

> > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index)

> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of

symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)

and/or

severe

> > > initial symptoms

> > > 4) Ligamentous instability on

radiographs.

> > > 5) Initial back pain

> > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive

impairment

> > > 7) Greater number of initial

symptoms

> > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder

harness for neck (not back) pain;

non-use

had

> > > a protective effect.

> > > 9) Initial physical findings of

loss of ROM

> > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms

> > > 11) Past history of neck pain

or headache

> > > 12)

Degenerative changes seen on radiographs

> > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical

lordosis

> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle

age and beyond)

> > > 15) Front seat position

> > >

> > > Also, did you check to see if, in

this particular case, whether

there

were

> > > complicating factors that lead to a

poor prognosis and long term

treatment

> > or

> > > disability?, i.e.:

> > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e.

diabetes, etc.

> > > 2) Lower BMI

> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of

symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)

and/or

> > > severe initial symptoms

> > > 4) Initial back pain

> > > 5) Spondylosis

> > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder

harness

> > > 7) Facet arthrosis

> > > 8) History of neck pain or

headaches

> > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other

arthritides

> > > 10) Degenerative changes on

radiographs of the spine

> > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other

spondylarthropathy.

> > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical

lordotic curve

> > > 13) Scoliosis

> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle

age and beyond

> > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery

> > > 16) Front seat position in car

> > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery

> > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture

> > > 19) Osteoporosis

> > > 20) Osseous diseases

> > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or

foraminal stenosis

> > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia

> > > Of course, these factors must be

documented in the patient history

and

the

> > DC's

> > > chart notes, in an accurate and

concise manner.

> > >

> > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly

excessive? Compared to what?

> > Compared to

> > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of

$80K? Compared to PT, MD,

Radiology,

> > long-term

> > > pharmacologic dependence,

Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with

their

> > related

> > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what

are the costs of lost time,

loss of

> > familial

> > > consort, loss of social function,

premature death from the

sequelae of

the

> > > effects of the injury and the

gradual, stead deterioration of the

quality

> > of

> > > life? Personally, it is about time

that we tell the world the

truth

about

> > how

> > > the insurance industry is duping

the public. Our efforts will be

better

> > served

> > > to broadcast to the public that we

are more effective, less

costly,

and

> > more

> > > efficient than any other form

of treatment and stop acting as if

we

are

> > the

> > > poor cousins in the health care

delivery field. Our treatment

should

be

> > worth

> > > more than standard medical

care. Our true value is the marked

effect

we

> > have on

> > > the functionality we return to our

patient's lives and the reduced

> > long-term

> > > costs we actually save with our

treatment.

> > >

> > > My advice: Stop crying that

the sky is falling and tell those

that

> > " think " we

> > > treat or charge excessively to

contact the OBCE and our Peer

Review

> > Committee.

> > >

> > > But, that's just my opinion.

I could be wrong.

> > >

> > > G. Ray, DC

> > >

> > >

> > >

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Guest guest

Hi jack & all,

To continue this conversation: We are scheduling a 'meet and greet' for Phil Barnhart, State Representative of the 11th District here in Eugene and I just gottenoff the phone from talking with him. He is VERY interested in our issues of IME and PIP. As a psychologist, he understands the need (sometimes) to rehabilitate a person in order to get them back to what/where they were just prior to the accident. But one thing he said was very interesting: "The fact that you as a group are being proactive by writing such a piece of legislature goes a long way toward helping us as legislators to help you."

He sees the issue as an ethical one: by us putting ourselves on notice (so to speak) about making sure we document and do timely exams (in whatever form or format we want) and, when necessary, call in a second opinion, we enable ourselves to serve the patient at the level of the patient's need. We are proving to the state that we are willing to set and follow our own guidelines, knowing full well that some cases fall outside of those parameters. The documentation then provides all the rationale that is needed.

We will have a date for you for his gathering within the next day or so...it will be sometime in mid to late July. He is fascinating to talk with .... very knowledgeable on health issues...and very pro-chiropractic.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DCFibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon59 Santa Clara St.,Eugene, Oregon, 97404541-689-0935

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Howdy:

While I certainly don't know the details in this particular case, I'd like to see what clinical findings supported the average $1900/month/10 months for chiropractic care.....with the appropriate documentation there may be no problem at all in demonstrating this level of care is needed.....

On the other hand, in way too many instances in the past, chiros have failed to document exactly the exam findings and progress or lack thereof that gives credible support for rational care of this intensity....

J. Pedersen DC

OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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Guest guest

Ok...the message from the "pro" group seems to be..."let's have an excessive treatment rule in order to regulate ourselves, and also to better DEFINE ourselves to other entities (i.e., the public, insurance companies, legislators). This will make us appear pro-active, help other's help us, and head-off future attacks."

The message from the "nay" group seems to be..."what proof is there that we NEED such a rule? (i.e., have there been an excessive number of public complaints?), if we adopt an "excessive treatment rule" than shouldn't we adopt a "minimum treatment rule?", and are we legislating ourselves MORE STRINGENTLY than other groups (i.e, do M.D.'s, D.O.'s, or P.T.'s have similar excessive treatment rules). This argument being; if those groups DON'T have an excessive treatment rule, than perhaps we should just adopt THEIR language, and put ourselves on par with them (not below them) (i.e., free economy, let the market bear what it will).

Recent history does reveal a "trend" or "pattern" with rule making. We are told there is a crisis; then when get a new set of rules. For example, the Board went to the Legislature a few years ago and told them that sexual abuse by Chiropractors was so rampant in Oregon, that they needed to raise our FEES in order to better investigate. Well, the Legislature investigated, and felt the need wasn't as great as the Board stated, and did not give the Board the fee increase they sought (notice however, we still got new sexual abuse language).

Now, we're being told that there is a "crisis" within PIP and that we, as a profession, are overcharging and over utilizing (I would like to see one report, list of investigations/hearings, or list of complaints by the public, however, before I buy into this crisis mentality).

This sounds VERY MUCH like SAIF telling the State Legislature in 1990 that they were going BROKE (losing a million dollars a day) and that Chiropractic needed to be eliminated from worker's compensation.

Insurance companies posted a 42% PROFIT, as an industry, last year. Did YOUR income go up 40% last year!? Insurance premiums went up as much as 300%. I received an e-mail off this very list serve that revealed medications are marked up 200,000%!

Is our Board concerned that our $46.00 adjustments are creating harm to the public within the PIP arena? (remember, the Board is supposed to regulate us ONLY to protect the public).

Again, it should be incumbent upon the Board to PROVE a need for an excessive treatment rule, before it adopts such a rule. I think both the CAO and ODOC should be provided documentation to substantiate such a rule. That documentation should then be used JUDICIOUSLY to plug whatever cracks may (or may not) exist in the current rule.

In my mind (as feeble as it is sometimes :) speculation of "future threat" does not constitute a current need. Appearing pro-active, and looking good to legislators, or State Harm, does not constitute a current need. Regulating ourselves more stringently than other professions CERTAINLY DOES NOT constitute a current need for an excessive treatment rule.

Just MY lunch time thoughts.

M. s, D.C.

North Bend.

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"> >> >> > > Vern> > > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costsinany> > third> > > party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authorityto> > receive and> > > investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat> > excessively.> > > We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look atbothsides> > of any> > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or overcharging> > and make> > > recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your "new" proposal forANOTHER> > > Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extremeover> > reaction to> > > pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the> > Chiropractic> > > profession as its "whipping boy" again as it did in 1990.> > >> > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to "put us in ourplace",> > is> > > that there are existing avenues to address over treatment orexcessive> > charging.> > > For BOTH sides of the equation.> > >> > > I also have concerns about "consensus" panels. I repeatedly getnew> > patients> > > that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any> > improvement are> > > told they are "all well", or they are released from care as soonasthey> > feel a> > > little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improveand> > they> > > still have the same problems they started with. If you have tenDC'sthat> > only> > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as havereached> > > "MMI", then their "consensus" is that all patients get "well" in5-6> > visits.> > > This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at bestis> > short> > > sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to amulti-facetedissue.> > >> > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking veryclosely> > at> > > implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. ArtCroft> > > developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcomestudies.> > These> > > studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatmentregimen> > that> > > has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patientsinjuredin> > motor> > > vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop "LateWhiplash"> > > issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplashinjury> > > (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has atreatment> > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need toeducate> > not> > > only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr.Croft's> > > guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute ofSan> > Diego> > > (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line.> > >> > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, andinthe> > least> > > inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where theinjury> > sustained> > > has caused structural and functional disability that requiresyears of> > > treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have> > permanent> > > impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (Whenwasthe> > last> > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?)Therefore,one> > must> > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned themtothere> > > pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there riskfactors> > or> > > other complicating factors, or other factors for a more seriousinjuryor> > for a> > > poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientificliterature> > verifies the> > > known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especiallyin> > Cervical> > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include:> > > 1) Female gender> > > 2) History of prior spinal injury> > > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentilemale)> > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts> > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-pointrestraints)> > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index> > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped)> > > 8) Non-failure of seat back> > > 9) Having the head turned at impact> > > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact.> > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)> > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position> > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater)> > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph> > >> > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late> > whiplash,> > > including:> > > 1) Female gender> > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index)> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)and/orsevere> > > initial symptoms> > > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs.> > > 5) Initial back pain> > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment> > > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms> > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain;non-usehad> > > a protective effect.> > > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM> > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms> > > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache> > > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs> > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)> > > 15) Front seat position> > >> > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whethertherewere> > > complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long termtreatment> > or> > > disability?, i.e.:> > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc.> > > 2) Lower BMI> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)and/or> > > severe initial symptoms> > > 4) Initial back pain> > > 5) Spondylosis> > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness> > > 7) Facet arthrosis> > > 8) History of neck pain or headaches> > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides> > > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine> > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy.> > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve> > > 13) Scoliosis> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond> > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery> > > 16) Front seat position in car> > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery> > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture> > > 19) Osteoporosis> > > 20) Osseous diseases> > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis> > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia> > > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient historyandthe> > DC's> > > chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner.> > >> > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what?> > Compared to> > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD,Radiology,> > long-term> > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, withtheir> > related> > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time,loss of> > familial> > > consort, loss of social function, premature death from thesequelae ofthe> > > effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of thequality> > of> > > life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world thetruthabout> > how> > > the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will bebetter> > served> > > to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, lesscostly,and> > more> > > efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as ifweare> > the> > > poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatmentshouldbe> > worth> > > more than standard medical care. Our true value is the markedeffectwe> > have on> > > the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced> > long-term> > > costs we actually save with our treatment.> > >> > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell thosethat> > "think" we> > > treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our PeerReview> > Committee.> > >> > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.> > >> > > G. Ray, DC> > >> > >> > >

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Dr. RIchards,

current privacy regulations and confidentiality oaths to serve on the OBCE do not permit me to divulge the material you request at this moment. I am not trying to deny you access to information. If I may have permission to print your request (this email) and present it to the Rules Advisory Committee thursday- tomorrow, I will take your request directly to the board and get you all the information I can minus the names. Keep in mind this would mean that you may have to sift thru or read thousands of pages of chart notes to come to a conclusion as to your belief that there have been clear violations with NSV rulings; (No Statutory Violation), or we could list the cases that were dismissed after more than 10 peers evaluated the case and came to the conclusion that there was a problem that we couldn't do anything about. I will honestly see what I can do without violating my oath of confidentiality. Oh how I wish there were more docs able to come to these meetings or volunteer for peer review. We need more. Do yu have time? Can you donate 6-8 days per year to serve on peer review?

I'll check email one more time before I drive to Salem tomorrow to see if I have your permission to copy this email. I leave at 1:30 PM.

My goal is truly to serve this profession and I aim to see what I can do to let you know I am seeing a problem that we honestly can't stop at this time. There is just no definitive rule for either under treatment, over treatment, or excessive billing. I'm just your average Joe with an X chromosome, that got talked into serving on the board.

Minga Guerrero DC

1st year OBCE

20 years in practice

n a message dated 5/12/2004 2:18:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, drbobdc@... writes:

Ok...the message from the "pro" group seems to be..."let's have an excessive treatment rule in order to regulate ourselves, and also to better DEFINE ourselves to other entities (i.e., the public, insurance companies, legislators). This will make us appear pro-active, help other's help us, and head-off future attacks."

The message from the "nay" group seems to be..."what proof is there that we NEED such a rule? (i.e., have there been an excessive number of public complaints?), if we adopt an "excessive treatment rule" than shouldn't we adopt a "minimum treatment rule?", and are we legislating ourselves MORE STRINGENTLY than other groups (i.e, do M.D.'s, D.O.'s, or P.T.'s have similar excessive treatment rules). This argument being; if those groups DON'T have an excessive treatment rule, than perhaps we should just adopt THEIR language, and put ourselves on par with them (not below them) (i.e., free economy, let the market bear what it will).

Recent history does reveal a "trend" or "pattern" with rule making. We are told there is a crisis; then when get a new set of rules. For example, the Board went to the Legislature a few years ago and told them that sexual abuse by Chiropractors was so rampant in Oregon, that they needed to raise our FEES in order to better investigate. Well, the Legislature investigated, and felt the need wasn't as great as the Board stated, and did not give the Board the fee increase they sought (notice however, we still got new sexual abuse language).

Now, we're being told that there is a "crisis" within PIP and that we, as a profession, are overcharging and over utilizing (I would like to see one report, list of investigations/hearings, or list of complaints by the public, however, before I buy into this crisis mentality).

This sounds VERY MUCH like SAIF telling the State Legislature in 1990 that they were going BROKE (losing a million dollars a day) and that Chiropractic needed to be eliminated from worker's compensation.

Insurance companies posted a 42% PROFIT, as an industry, last year. Did YOUR income go up 40% last year!? Insurance premiums went up as much as 300%. I received an e-mail off this very list serve that revealed medications are marked up 200,000%!

Is our Board concerned that our $46.00 adjustments are creating harm to the public within the PIP arena? (remember, the Board is supposed to regulate us ONLY to protect the public).

Again, it should be incumbent upon the Board to PROVE a need for an excessive treatment rule, before it adopts such a rule. I think both the CAO and ODOC should be provided documentation to substantiate such a rule. That documentation should then be used JUDICIOUSLY to plug whatever cracks may (or may not) exist in the current rule.

In my mind (as feeble as it is sometimes :) speculation of "future threat" does not constitute a current need. Appearing pro-active, and looking good to legislators, or State Harm, does not constitute a current need. Regulating ourselves more stringently than other professions CERTAINLY DOES NOT constitute a current need for an excessive treatment rule.

Just MY lunch time thoughts.

M. s, D.C.

North Bend.

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“If they can write

an Administrative rule that clarifies the guidelines and allows them to testify

for or against chiropractors, why is there so much fear and hand wringing over

them just writing an Administrative rule?”

The reason for this acceptance is that

this action will apply to chiropractors on a case by case basis at no cost to

the professional board. The proposed rule will apply to EVERY chiropractor,

even those who are running cash practices with market determined fees, and will

cost the profession lots of dollars in prosecution expenses.

Remember the costs of administration that

go with every additional rule. Its like having a child

is free, but what about the education and the weddings? I am a father of 7!

Once in Union, when I was the mayor, everyone though it would be cool to pave

all the streets. Great idea, except that we would still be paying off the bond 10

years before the streets would require extensive maintenance, which we could

not afford in addition to the initial construction bond. I just do not see that

there is justification for additional rules that will certainly cost money, and

should, but probably won’t create widespread apprehension about

documentation of care (support for enforcing the presently unenforceable ED

Manual which I believe is the true, but probably subconscious, desire behind the

OBCE’s attempts to tighten its ability to

prosecute chiropractors for sloppy note taking), all of which will further

narrow the scope of chiropractic by making it too expensive to maintain a

practice with enough paperwork to do anything but analyze and adjust subluxations and leave our profession stuck in a permanent

state of suspended animation.

I would prefer to see a profession that

allows cash practices to charge what the market will bear. I don’t care

if someone charges $5000 for single adjustment as long as the client

understands what they are getting and what they are paying for. Remember I

belong to Alternaire, etc where fees are limited. Why

add the burden of limiting the cash practice? Let the market work here so we

can compete.

Not to drag on, but what about the patient

who gets a series of 10 treatments for a $300 a treatment with a technique that

no chiropractor has tried think early Pettibon, early

on, early Gonstead, etc. How will the pioneers travel

in Oregon? Not at all with the restrictions proposed. Suppose Dr. Oregon’s technique were judged to stray too far from the status quo and now his fees are

excessive for giving treatments that are not considered useful. What protections

are there against this? None that I could fathom.

As usual the OBCE means well, but is biased

in favor of regulation rather than administration. Thank you OBCE for your

continued and diligent attempts, but simply working hard is

not the same as success. You have not hit the mark and should

admit it and face the responsibility of starting again.

Willard Bertrand, D.C.

Fw: " Proposed Excessive

Treatment Admin. Rule "

Re: " Proposed Excessive

Treatment Admin. Rule "

> >

> >

> > > Vern

> > > There already exists a process for

excessive treatment and costs

in

any

> > third

> > > party payment system, including

PIP. The OBCE has the authority

to

> > receive and

> > > investigate complaints against DC's

that appear to charge or treat

> > excessively.

> > > We also have in place a Peer Review

Committee that can look at

both

sides

> > of any

> > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance

carrier) on over treatment or over

charging

> > and make

> > > recommendations to the OBCE for

action. Your " new " proposal for

ANOTHER

> > > Administrative Rule on this issue

is, in my opinion, an extreme

over

> > reaction to

> > > pressure from outside influences,

whose only motive is to use the

> > Chiropractic

> > > profession as its " whipping

boy " again as it did in 1990.

> > >

> > > What we should be telling those who

are pushing to " put us in our

place " ,

> > is

> > > that there are existing avenues to

address over treatment or

excessive

> > charging.

> > > For BOTH sides of the equation.

> > >

> > > I also have concerns about

" consensus " panels. I repeatedly get

new

> > patients

> > > that have already been to another

or other DC's, and without any

> > improvement are

> > > told they are " all well " ,

or they are released from care as soon

as

they

> > feel a

> > > little better. Yet the

patient tells me that they did not improve

and

> > they

> > > still have the same problems they

started with. If you have ten

DC's

that

> > only

> > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and

release them from care as have

reached

> > > " MMI " , then their

" consensus " is that all patients get " well " in

5-6

> > visits.

> > > This cannot be considered, by any

measure, scientific, and at best

is

> > short

> > > sighted, and is an extremely

subjective approach to a

multi-faceted

issue.

> > >

> > > I also feel strongly that we

should, as a group, be looking very

closely

> > at

> > > implementing the treatment

guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art

Croft

> > > developed, using the existing

scientific literature on outcome

studies.

> > These

> > > studies already show that

Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment

regimen

> > that

> > > has any validity in improving and

stabilizing those patients

injured

in

> > motor

> > > vehicle collision, especially CADS

and those that develop " Late

Whiplash "

> > > issues. In the Croft

guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash

injury

> > > (without neurological signs or

other complicating factors) has a

treatment

> > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up

to 34 treatments. We need to

educate

> > not

> > > only the insurance industry, but

also our own colleagues. Dr.

Croft's

> > > guidelines can be accessed through

the Spine Research Institute of

San

> > Diego

> > > (SRISD) and through CRASH.

Both are on-line.

> > >

> > > Your example of the case that cost

$19K, is at best, extreme, and

in

the

> > least

> > > inflammatory and reactionary.

There are those cases where the

injury

> > sustained

> > > has caused structural and

functional disability that requires

years of

> > > treatment, not months, and over 10%

of those injured in MVC's have

> > permanent

> > > impairment and lifetime disability

in one form or another. (When

was

the

> > last

> > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered

you that information?)

Therefore,

one

> > must

> > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the

patient in that it returned them

to

there

> > > pre-functional status? What

was the diagnosis? Were there risk

factors

> > or

> > > other complicating factors, or

other factors for a more serious

injury

or

> > for a

> > > poor prognosis? If one looks

at the existing scientific

literature

> > verifies the

> > > known risk factors for injury and

for a poor prognosis, especially

in

> > Cervical

> > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma

(CADS). These include:

> > > 1) Female gender

> > > 2) History of prior spinal injury

> > > 3) Poor head restraint

geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile

male)

> > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts

> > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder

harness (standard three-point

restraints)

> > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index

> > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g.,

leaning forward/slumped)

> > > 8) Non-failure of seat back

> > > 9) Having the head turned at impact

> > > 10) Non-awareness of impending

impact.

> > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle

age and beyond)

> > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position

> > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater

mass (i.e., 25% greater)

> > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph

> > >

> > > Additionally, the literature points

to known risk factors for late

> > whiplash,

> > > including:

> > > 1) Female gender

> > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index)

> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of

symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)

and/or

severe

> > > initial symptoms

> > > 4) Ligamentous instability on

radiographs.

> > > 5) Initial back pain

> > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive

impairment

> > > 7) Greater number of initial

symptoms

> > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder

harness for neck (not back) pain;

non-use

had

> > > a protective effect.

> > > 9) Initial physical findings of

loss of ROM

> > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms

> > > 11) Past history of neck pain

or headache

> > > 12)

Degenerative changes seen on radiographs

> > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical

lordosis

> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle

age and beyond)

> > > 15) Front seat position

> > >

> > > Also, did you check to see if, in

this particular case, whether

there

were

> > > complicating factors that lead to a

poor prognosis and long term

treatment

> > or

> > > disability?, i.e.:

> > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e.

diabetes, etc.

> > > 2) Lower BMI

> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of

symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)

and/or

> > > severe initial symptoms

> > > 4) Initial back pain

> > > 5) Spondylosis

> > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder

harness

> > > 7) Facet arthrosis

> > > 8) History of neck pain or

headaches

> > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other

arthritides

> > > 10) Degenerative changes on

radiographs of the spine

> > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other

spondylarthropathy.

> > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical

lordotic curve

> > > 13) Scoliosis

> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle

age and beyond

> > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery

> > > 16) Front seat position in car

> > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery

> > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture

> > > 19) Osteoporosis

> > > 20) Osseous diseases

> > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or

foraminal stenosis

> > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia

> > > Of course, these factors must be

documented in the patient history

and

the

> > DC's

> > > chart notes, in an accurate and

concise manner.

> > >

> > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly

excessive? Compared to what?

> > Compared to

> > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of

$80K? Compared to PT, MD,

Radiology,

> > long-term

> > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational

Therapy, ad nauseum, with

their

> > related

> > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what

are the costs of lost time,

loss of

> > familial

> > > consort, loss of social function,

premature death from the

sequelae of

the

> > > effects of the injury and the

gradual, stead deterioration of the

quality

> > of

> > > life? Personally, it is about time

that we tell the world the

truth

about

> > how

> > > the insurance industry is duping

the public. Our efforts will be

better

> > served

> > > to broadcast to the public that we

are more effective, less

costly,

and

> > more

> > > efficient than any other form

of treatment and stop acting as if

we

are

> > the

> > > poor cousins in the health care

delivery field. Our treatment

should

be

> > worth

> > > more than standard medical

care. Our true value is the marked

effect

we

> > have on

> > > the functionality we return to our

patient's lives and the reduced

> > long-term

> > > costs we actually save with our

treatment.

> > >

> > > My advice: Stop crying that

the sky is falling and tell those

that

> > " think " we

> > > treat or charge excessively to

contact the OBCE and our Peer

Review

> > Committee.

> > >

> > > But, that's just my opinion.

I could be wrong.

> > >

> > > G. Ray, DC

> > >

> > >

> > >

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Minga: I think most people aren't aware of what you have written. I am CC it to the list. It will provoke more responses and widen our understanding. Are there lots of these cases? I thought most of the complaints were sexual or gross mistreatment. Ann Goldeen

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Ann,Oh if only I could just leave it all to peer review! however, the legislature makes the rules that govern this thing I've volunteered for: the OBCE. Sure we as a profession, can make suggestions to add rules or change rules. But as you can tell from this process on the listserv, it's no easy task to make a change. As it stands, when a complaint is made, The board must respond. We can send items to the peer review for their "expert advice". Once the advice is returned to us, we must make a determination and return an answer to whom ever is complaining. We are not allowed to say, we don't want to make a determination. We are not allowed to ask peer review to make a final determination. I think maybe a lot of doctors don't understand the job of the board. I know I didn't even fully understand it until I was neck deep. I'm still learning in my first year. Also, I have learned that even if the peer review committee thinks there is obvious over billing or treatment without proper exam, justification , excessive treatment, etc, there is often, NO clear rule to judge it. There is simply a small thing about not violating "professional conduct". The fact that professonal conduct is left open to very broad intrepretation, leaves no room to call it a clear "violation of statute". We've been advised time and again by our legal experts that we would lose a case if it were contested. We/ve been advised to rewrite the law. As I understand it, We choose not to file a case and spend lots of $ when we know we'll lose. So even if we do see a case that seems to be unfair to a patient, we have to rule "No Statutory Violation" NSV. The public (patients) are always calling and writing us back wondering how we could say such a thing. They are often upset. I've seen this happen 3-4 times already in less than a year. (MY time on the board.) Minga Guerrero DCIn a message dated 5/11/2004 9:33:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, anngoldeen@... writes:

Minga: Why not just leave the whole issue to peer review? It sounds like their department. We already have a mechanism in place for complaints and disputes. Let's use it, instead of adding more bureaucracy. Ann Goldeen

----- Original

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THanks for reposting these comments from Minga. There is no clear measuring stick to determine excessive treatment nor "under-treatment." During my four years on Peer Review this is what we ran smack tab into, we had several of the well known IME colleagues in front of the committee but without a clear evidence based measuring stick (outcomes assessment tools) we were powerless to act.

In 1994 (I think this was the year) as I recall the OBCE attempted to act against Dr. Dick Tilden relative to an IME situation and because of this lack of a clear measuring stick of what constitutes reasonable and necessary care the OBCE lost the contested case. This cost the OBCE a huge amount of money, which since is only self funded by all lic DCs in the state, could ill afford. Hence the OBCE is finacially unwilling to act when there is no clear violation and there is no clear violation because we all have our own measuring sticks (opinions) as per the appropriate frequency and duration of care etc., etc., etc.

Evidence based outcomes assessment is the measuring stick and where the entire health care industry is headed and has been headed for quite some time.

I been thinking about all the valuable comments relative to this issue and it has come to me that these new proposed rules could be a real positive opportunity, and opportunity to lead the rest of the health care professions here in Oregon in the cost effective treatment of musculoskeletal problems. We are the musculoskeletal experts lets use this opportunity to validate that we are indeed the experts and own it.

Vern Saboe

Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"

Ann,Oh if only I could just leave it all to peer review! however, the legislature makes the rules that govern this thing I've volunteered for: the OBCE. Sure we as a profession, can make suggestions to add rules or change rules. But as you can tell from this process on the listserv, it's no easy task to make a change. As it stands, when a complaint is made, The board must respond. We can send items to the peer review for their "expert advice". Once the advice is returned to us, we must make a determination and return an answer to whom ever is complaining. We are not allowed to say, we don't want to make a determination. We are not allowed to ask peer review to make a final determination. I think maybe a lot of doctors don't understand the job of the board. I know I didn't even fully understand it until I was neck deep. I'm still learning in my first year. Also, I have learned that even if the peer review committee thinks there is obvious over billing or treatment without proper exam, justification , excessive treatment, etc, there is often, NO clear rule to judge it. There is simply a small thing about not violating "professional conduct". The fact that professonal conduct is left open to very broad intrepretation, leaves no room to call it a clear "violation of statute". We've been advised time and again by our legal experts that we would lose a case if it were contested. We/ve been advised to rewrite the law. As I understand it, We choose not to file a case and spend lots of $ when we know we'll lose. So even if we do see a case that seems to be unfair to a patient, we have to rule "No Statutory Violation" NSV. The public (patients) are always calling and writing us back wondering how we could say such a thing. They are often upset. I've seen this happen 3-4 times already in less than a year. (MY time on the board.) Minga Guerrero DCIn a message dated 5/11/2004 9:33:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, anngoldeen@... writes:

Minga: Why not just leave the whole issue to peer review? It sounds like their department. We already have a mechanism in place for complaints and disputes. Let's use it, instead of adding more bureaucracy. Ann Goldeen

----- Original OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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