Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 As an alternative to the proposed excessive treatment rule I suggest that the OBCE provide itself as a friend of the insurance industry in court proceedings where excessive treatment is alleged. With this type of testimony there should be no problem for the court to rule in favor of fair treatment guidelines. Simply put? The OBCE will draft administrative rules that would allow it to testify for or against chiropractors in Oregon who have exceeded the written guidelines for professional conduct. The OBCE would provide such expert testimony to any who wish to purchase the same. Adavantages: 1. low cost, as we do not spend the money on prosecution. 2. Make a profit as the insurer would surely pay to get the testimony 3. Control the IME problems by providing the best possible witness for concluding a case where an IME has created a loophole for insurers to crawl through. 4. Prevents the rotten apples from spoiling the whole barrel. Disavantages: 1. your turn. Willard Bertrand, D.C. Fw: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " > > > > > > > Vern > > > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any > > third > > > party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to > > receive and > > > investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat > > excessively. > > > We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides > > of any > > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging > > and make > > > recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER > > > Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over > > reaction to > > > pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the > > Chiropractic > > > profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990. > > > > > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , > > is > > > that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive > > charging. > > > For BOTH sides of the equation. > > > > > > I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new > > patients > > > that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any > > improvement are > > > told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they > > feel a > > > little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and > > they > > > still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that > > only > > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached > > > " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 > > visits. > > > This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is > > short > > > sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue. > > > > > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely > > at > > > implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft > > > developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. > > These > > > studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen > > that > > > has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in > > motor > > > vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash " > > > issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury > > > (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment > > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate > > not > > > only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's > > > guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San > > Diego > > > (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line. > > > > > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the > > least > > > inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury > > sustained > > > has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of > > > treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have > > permanent > > > impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the > > last > > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one > > must > > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there > > > pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors > > or > > > other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or > > for a > > > poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature > > verifies the > > > known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in > > Cervical > > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include: > > > 1) Female gender > > > 2) History of prior spinal injury > > > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male) > > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts > > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints) > > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index > > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped) > > > 8) Non-failure of seat back > > > 9) Having the head turned at impact > > > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact. > > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position > > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater) > > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph > > > > > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late > > whiplash, > > > including: > > > 1) Female gender > > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index) > > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe > > > initial symptoms > > > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs. > > > 5) Initial back pain > > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment > > > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms > > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had > > > a protective effect. > > > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM > > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms > > > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache > > > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs > > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis > > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > > > 15) Front seat position > > > > > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were > > > complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment > > or > > > disability?, i.e.: > > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc. > > > 2) Lower BMI > > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or > > > severe initial symptoms > > > 4) Initial back pain > > > 5) Spondylosis > > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness > > > 7) Facet arthrosis > > > 8) History of neck pain or headaches > > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides > > > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine > > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy. > > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve > > > 13) Scoliosis > > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond > > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery > > > 16) Front seat position in car > > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery > > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture > > > 19) Osteoporosis > > > 20) Osseous diseases > > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis > > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia > > > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the > > DC's > > > chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner. > > > > > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? > > Compared to > > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, > > long-term > > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their > > related > > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of > > familial > > > consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the > > > effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality > > of > > > life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about > > how > > > the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better > > served > > > to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and > > more > > > efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are > > the > > > poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be > > worth > > > more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we > > have on > > > the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced > > long-term > > > costs we actually save with our treatment. > > > > > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that > > " think " we > > > treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review > > Committee. > > > > > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. > > > > > > G. Ray, DC > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 I would also like to send a big thank you to the OBCE. Thank you, you have done enough to help. Now please set down your tools and go home. It is time to simply administer the tests and the rules we have. Thank you. Willard Bertrand, D.C. Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " Well put Minga....does me heart good to know we have some of the " sharper knives in the drawer " sitting on the OBCE. Generally its a thankless job, a huge commitment of time and energy.....well here is one GREAT BIG THANK YOU Minga and to all the members of the OBCE! Vern Saboe, DC Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " Vern, I am very greatful for all the work you're doing to help our profession towards self-regulation. You are asking for DC input. You are reporting back to us all regularly. You are clear in your motives, adgenda and goals. For those in our profession who have no time to participate, I would urge you to please trust the process. I trust that you, Vern, know more than I do with respect to legislative directions. As you've put in volumes of hours for our profession. For those of you in doubt or disagreement, please please come forward with your time, energy and suggestions to help our profession with the problems we currently face. If you disagree, present an alternative plan in writing at one of the meetings, or here on this listserv. But do so immediately. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Dear Colleagues: As per the need for an Administrative Rule that is specific in language so to act as a measuring stick (outcomes assessment tools) that all stakeholders can use in the realm of PIP in Oregon, to determine that chiropractic treatment frequency and duration of curative care has indeed been reasonable and necessary.... I just received a post from a colleague in another state who just reviewed a PIP case that ran right at 10 months of care and close to $19,000 in charges. Yes, we have this same level of abuse here in Oregon, what % of colleagues? I have no idea but it matters not as it will indeed be these cases that the PIP carriers will use to convince the legislators that change is needed. In the late 80's we needed to do something about the % of the profession that were truly abusing the system of Worker's Compensation. What was missing was a universal evidence based measuring stick to apply to these casualty (accident) insurance type cases, to help determine if curative treatment had been reasonable and necessary. Bottom-line was I heard some of the same arguments then against not "boxing ourselves in, etc.," so we did nothing and we lost nearly everything and colleagues history is about to repeat it's self in PIP if we again fail to act decisively and in a timely manner. I would like your thoughtful comments? Vern Saboe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Hi Vern, Yesterday I spoke with Mr. Phil Barnhart, State Representative for District 11 here in Eugene. He is very interested in our issues: most specifically IME and PIP. He told me about an anticipated battle during the next session but is fully 'on our side' and most interested in assisting us with this. He is a seasoned legislator with, from the discussion we had, a seemingly good understanding of our concerns. If he is already gearing up for this conversation within the legislature, it behoves us to pay attention...to put our mouths and money where our interest is, so to speak. While we are still coordinating the dates (it will most likely happen in mid July), Mr. Barnhart is offering to meet with us here in Eugene to fully discuss our issues and concerns. He states he is very interested in our feedback. Thank you, Uncle Vern, for setting the stage for this meeting. I call on DCs throughout the state (and especially here in Eugene) to attend this session. It promises to be most informative. We will get the date to you asap so you can mark your calendars. Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DCFibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon59 Santa Clara St.,Eugene, Oregon, 97404541-689-0935 "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Dear Colleagues: As per the need for an Administrative Rule that is specific in language so to act as a measuring stick (outcomes assessment tools) that all stakeholders can use in the realm of PIP in Oregon, to determine that chiropractic treatment frequency and duration of curative care has indeed been reasonable and necessary.... I just received a post from a colleague in another state who just reviewed a PIP case that ran right at 10 months of care and close to $19,000 in charges. Yes, we have this same level of abuse here in Oregon, what % of colleagues? I have no idea but it matters not as it will indeed be these cases that the PIP carriers will use to convince the legislators that change is needed. In the late 80's we needed to do something about the % of the profession that were truly abusing the system of Worker's Compensation. What was missing was a universal evidence based measuring stick to apply to these casualty (accident) insurance type cases, to help determine if curative treatment had been reasonable and necessary. Bottom-line was I heard some of the same arguments then against not "boxing ourselves in, etc.," so we did nothing and we lost nearly everything and colleagues history is about to repeat it's self in PIP if we again fail to act decisively and in a timely manner. I would like your thoughtful comments? Vern Saboe OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Vern, I am very greatful for all the work you're doing to help our profession towards self-regulation. You are asking for DC input. You are reporting back to us all regularly. You are clear in your motives, adgenda and goals. For those in our profession who have no time to participate, I would urge you to please trust the process. I trust that you, Vern, know more than I do with respect to legislative directions. As you've put in volumes of hours for our profession. For those of you in doubt or disagreement, please please come forward with your time, energy and suggestions to help our profession with the problems we currently face. If you disagree, present an alternative plan in writing at one of the meetings, or here on this listserv. But do so immediately. Minga Guerrero DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Howdy: While I certainly don't know the details in this particular case, I'd like to see what clinical findings supported the average $1900/month/10 months for chiropractic care.....with the appropriate documentation there may be no problem at all in demonstrating this level of care is needed..... On the other hand, in way too many instances in the past, chiros have failed to document exactly the exam findings and progress or lack thereof that gives credible support for rational care of this intensity.... J. Pedersen DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Garreth, Xs care is absolutely not defined by time alone. And I'm sure Vern didn't intend that message. I think the key parts of his email, as I remember, were that there were no re-exam or objective justifications for continued care. that picture combined with an inflated fee, will do harm to the patient's case. The patient you describe sounds like an easy exception to continued care. It could also justify more drastic measures to stabalize. Just document the exams, treatments and outcomes. I've seen poor documentation ruin a great case. It's so sad when a patient comes to your office after months of poorly documented care. The bill is incredibly high. PIP is nearly exhausted and the patient is still in significant pain. I've been in business for 20 years and have no idea how long you've been practicing. Please rest assured that the vast majority of chiropractors understand the need for continuing care when there are circumstances beyond normal. Diabetes, previous surgery, pregnancy, rheumatoid arthritis and age of patient just to name a few. I've never seen or heard any docs at the meetings in peer review or with rules advisory committee neglect to think of these possibilities. That said, I've also never heard of any plan to give exact weeks for care of a given condition. It can't be done. there are too many variables. I think the rules that are being suggested are simply for a group of peers to be able to evaluate our work and see if it's reasonable when a complaint is filed. BTW, I'm not speaking for Vern, just my very own opinion of what I percieve from the time I've volunteered. Minga Guerrero DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Exactly Jack you hit the nail on the head. A lot of our problem is not true excessive treatment but rather very likely problematic medi-legal musculoskeletal cases that are indeed receiving appropriate care, it's just that the documentation is missing. This proposed administrative rule would force the issue of generating proper documentation of injury (evidence based outcome assessments, both subjective patient driven and objective doctor driven), a progression of care, and as such help to determine both when the patient has reached maximal chiropractic improvement and if there is any spinal impairment/residuals requiring supportive care. Vern Saboe Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Howdy: While I certainly don't know the details in this particular case, I'd like to see what clinical findings supported the average $1900/month/10 months for chiropractic care.....with the appropriate documentation there may be no problem at all in demonstrating this level of care is needed..... On the other hand, in way too many instances in the past, chiros have failed to document exactly the exam findings and progress or lack thereof that gives credible support for rational care of this intensity.... J. Pedersen DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Well put Minga....does me heart good to know we have some of the "sharper knives in the drawer" sitting on the OBCE. Generally its a thankless job, a huge commitment of time and energy.....well here is one GREAT BIG THANK YOU Minga and to all the members of the OBCE! Vern Saboe, DC Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Vern,I am very greatful for all the work you're doing to help our profession towards self-regulation. You are asking for DC input. You are reporting back to us all regularly. You are clear in your motives, adgenda and goals. For those in our profession who have no time to participate, I would urge you to please trust the process. I trust that you, Vern, know more than I do with respect to legislative directions. As you've put in volumes of hours for our profession. For those of you in doubt or disagreement, please please come forward with your time, energy and suggestions to help our profession with the problems we currently face. If you disagree, present an alternative plan in writing at one of the meetings, or here on this listserv. But do so immediately. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Vern et al, When I returned from practicing in Hawaii in 1996 I presented cases of impairment based upion the current AMA guides as a Certified Impairment Rating DC, through LACC as instructed by Stan Kaplan, the long standing expert in the field of impairment rating. I was told by attorneys and insurance carriers that my rating would not be given weight in this state, even though my impairment ratings were frequently the decisive factor in the outcome of workers comp settlements, and no fault settlements and arbitrations in Hawaii.(and in the 80's here) I recall in the early eighties when Mazion certified a bunch of us here in Oregon in Impairment rating that our opinions meant something, so my question is will excessive treatment rules lead to our being recognized more in the future than we are presently or is our destiny unrelated to any actions we may make at this time? I am not opposed to the concept of cleaning up the fringe, just nervous that it won't accomplish what the intent is, but just create big grief for some unsuspecting honest DC, who happens to not have done his/her due diligence regarding assessments, but may very well have done just fine treating the patient. In 2002 a paper review and IME was performed on a patient of mine who underwent cervical fusion, after a year or more of chiropractic care and many other opinions at my request and at the request of the carrier. One neurologist stated that I had "provided excessive chart notes, over one and one half inches thick", and went on to say that my diagnosis and content of my notes were irrelevant. I was the one who dx'd the exact level of the lesion, (confirmed shortly therafter by MRI) after she had been diagnoised with cervical strain. We all do that day in and out, don't we? But nobody is noticing,(except for the neurosurgeons who are on the receiving end of our referrals, not out of respect for our abilities, but for the work,and appreciate us for that, but rarely would in public give credit where credit is due). It seems that no matter what we do there will always be disregard, disrespect, etc. and if we don't remember that we are setting ourselves up for further disappointments and future finger pointing(within our ranks) depending on which way the wind is blowing. Too bad we can't survive on cash paying folks, because as I see it that would be the one true way to win a full blown victory. Never happen, and that is the shame. Your devils advocate, Sherm Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Howdy: While I certainly don't know the details in this particular case, I'd like to see what clinical findings supported the average $1900/month/10 months for chiropractic care.....with the appropriate documentation there may be no problem at all in demonstrating this level of care is needed..... On the other hand, in way too many instances in the past, chiros have failed to document exactly the exam findings and progress or lack thereof that gives credible support for rational care of this intensity.... J. Pedersen DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Minga, I think if you obtain a copy of Art Croft's book or if you have it, review the section on treatment guidelines. These are very specific but allow for latitude depending on a varity of variables. Sincerely, Sherm Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Garreth,Xs care is absolutely not defined by time alone. And I'm sure Vern didn't intend that message. I think the key parts of his email, as I remember, were that there were no re-exam or objective justifications for continued care. that picture combined with an inflated fee, will do harm to the patient's case. The patient you describe sounds like an easy exception to continued care. It could also justify more drastic measures to stabalize. Just document the exams, treatments and outcomes. I've seen poor documentation ruin a great case. It's so sad when a patient comes to your office after months of poorly documented care. The bill is incredibly high. PIP is nearly exhausted and the patient is still in significant pain. I've been in business for 20 years and have no idea how long you've been practicing. Please rest assured that the vast majority of chiropractors understand the need for continuing care when there are circumstances beyond normal. Diabetes, previous surgery, pregnancy, rheumatoid arthritis and age of patient just to name a few. I've never seen or heard any docs at the meetings in peer review or with rules advisory committee neglect to think of these possibilities. That said, I've also never heard of any plan to give exact weeks for care of a given condition. It can't be done. there are too many variables. I think the rules that are being suggested are simply for a group of peers to be able to evaluate our work and see if it's reasonable when a complaint is filed. BTW, I'm not speaking for Vern, just my very own opinion of what I percieve from the time I've volunteered. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Vern There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any third party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to receive and investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat excessively. We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides of any issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging and make recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over reaction to pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the Chiropractic profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990. What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , is that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive charging. For BOTH sides of the equation. I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new patients that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any improvement are told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they feel a little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and they still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that only treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 visits. This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is short sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue. I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely at implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. These studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen that has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in motor vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash " issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate not only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San Diego (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line. Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the least inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury sustained has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have permanent impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the last time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one must ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors or other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or for a poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature verifies the known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in Cervical Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include: 1) Female gender 2) History of prior spinal injury 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male) 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints) 6) Body mass index/head neck index 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped) 8) Non-failure of seat back 9) Having the head turned at impact 10) Non-awareness of impending impact. 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) 12) Front vs. rear seat position 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater) 14) Crash speed under 10 mph Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late whiplash, including: 1) Female gender 2) Lower BMI (body mass index) 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe initial symptoms 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs. 5) Initial back pain 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment 7) Greater number of initial symptoms 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had a protective effect. 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM 10) Initial neurological symptoms 11) Past history of neck pain or headache 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) 15) Front seat position Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment or disability?, i.e.: 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc. 2) Lower BMI 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe initial symptoms 4) Initial back pain 5) Spondylosis 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness 7) Facet arthrosis 8) History of neck pain or headaches 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy. 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve 13) Scoliosis 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery 16) Front seat position in car 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery 18) Prior vertebral fracture 19) Osteoporosis 20) Osseous diseases 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the DC's chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner. Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? Compared to spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, long-term pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their related costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of familial consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality of life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about how the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better served to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and more efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are the poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be worth more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we have on the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced long-term costs we actually save with our treatment. My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that " think " we treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review Committee. But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. G. Ray, DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Vern There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any third party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to receive and investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat excessively. We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides of any issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging and make recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over reaction to pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the Chiropractic profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990. What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , is that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive charging. For BOTH sides of the equation. I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new patients that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any improvement are told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they feel a little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and they still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that only treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 visits. This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is short sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue. I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely at implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. These studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen that has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in motor vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash " issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate not only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San Diego (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line. Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the least inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury sustained has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have permanent impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the last time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one must ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors or other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or for a poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature verifies the known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in Cervical Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include: 1) Female gender 2) History of prior spinal injury 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male) 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints) 6) Body mass index/head neck index 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped) 8) Non-failure of seat back 9) Having the head turned at impact 10) Non-awareness of impending impact. 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) 12) Front vs. rear seat position 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater) 14) Crash speed under 10 mph Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late whiplash, including: 1) Female gender 2) Lower BMI (body mass index) 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe initial symptoms 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs. 5) Initial back pain 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment 7) Greater number of initial symptoms 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had a protective effect. 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM 10) Initial neurological symptoms 11) Past history of neck pain or headache 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) 15) Front seat position Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment or disability?, i.e.: 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc. 2) Lower BMI 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe initial symptoms 4) Initial back pain 5) Spondylosis 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness 7) Facet arthrosis 8) History of neck pain or headaches 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy. 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve 13) Scoliosis 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery 16) Front seat position in car 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery 18) Prior vertebral fracture 19) Osteoporosis 20) Osseous diseases 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the DC's chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner. Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? Compared to spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, long-term pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their related costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of familial consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality of life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about how the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better served to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and more efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are the poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be worth more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we have on the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced long-term costs we actually save with our treatment. My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that " think " we treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review Committee. But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. G. Ray, DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Minga: Why not just leave the whole issue to peer review? It sounds like their department. We already have a mechanism in place for complaints and disputes. Let's use it, instead of adding more bureaucracy. Ann Goldeen Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Garreth,Xs care is absolutely not defined by time alone. And I'm sure Vern didn't intend that message. I think the key parts of his email, as I remember, were that there were no re-exam or objective justifications for continued care. that picture combined with an inflated fee, will do harm to the patient's case. The patient you describe sounds like an easy exception to continued care. It could also justify more drastic measures to stabalize. Just document the exams, treatments and outcomes. I've seen poor documentation ruin a great case. It's so sad when a patient comes to your office after months of poorly documented care. The bill is incredibly high. PIP is nearly exhausted and the patient is still in significant pain. I've been in business for 20 years and have no idea how long you've been practicing. Please rest assured that the vast majority of chiropractors understand the need for continuing care when there are circumstances beyond normal. Diabetes, previous surgery, pre! gnancy, rheumatoid arthritis and age of patient just to name a few. I've never seen or heard any docs at the meetings in peer review or with rules advisory committee neglect to think of these possibilities. That said, I've also never heard of any plan to give exact weeks for care of a given condition. It can't be done. there are too many variables. I think the rules that are being suggested are simply for a group of peers to be able to evaluate our work and see if it's reasonable when a complaint is filed. BTW, I'm not speaking for Vern, just my very own opinion of what I percieve from the time I've volunteered. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Dear Docs, I can't emphasis enough that if you are doing PIP work to get educated beyond your general background. Several people are saying this now, and it's nice to know that docs are doing their homework. Check out Art Croft, Dan , Melton, and of course our own Freeman, DeShaw, and Bob Pfeiffer (I know there are others, but I can't write 'em all down). If you have never read Croft's book, and you think you know MVCs - think again. I have had the book almost two years and I'm still digesting it. (then again - I'm a little slow...) Melton has an excellent binder that has tremendous amounts of info in it that 1) comes with a CD ROM and 2) is updated every year. I provided a link for those of you interested. I'm not preaching that "you don't know this, and you don't know that". What I'm saying is if more and more of us knew this stuff, it would be easier to dispute the "junk science". Just ask Freeman about "junk science" if you want to see him go off... Sincerely, Matt Terreri, DC PS: If you really want to get crazy, take Freeman's masters program soon to be offered at WSCC. The bottom line is one weekend seminar on this stuff ain't enough! (in my opinion). Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Garreth,Xs care is absolutely not defined by time alone. And I'm sure Vern didn't intend that message. I think the key parts of his email, as I remember, were that there were no re-exam or objective justifications for continued care. that picture combined with an inflated fee, will do harm to the patient's case. The patient you describe sounds like an easy exception to continued care. It could also justify more drastic measures to stabalize. Just document the exams, treatments and outcomes. I've seen poor documentation ruin a great case. It's so sad when a patient comes to your office after months of poorly documented care. The bill is incredibly high. PIP is nearly exhausted and the patient is still in significant pain. I've been in business for 20 years and have no idea how long you've been practicing. Please rest assured that the vast majority of chiropractors understand the need for continuing care when there are circumstances beyond normal. Diabetes, previous surgery, pregnancy, rheumatoid arthritis and age of patient just to name a few. I've never seen or heard any docs at the meetings in peer review or with rules advisory committee neglect to think of these possibilities. That said, I've also never heard of any plan to give exact weeks for care of a given condition. It can't be done. there are too many variables. I think the rules that are being suggested are simply for a group of peers to be able to evaluate our work and see if it's reasonable when a complaint is filed. BTW, I'm not speaking for Vern, just my very own opinion of what I percieve from the time I've volunteered. Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 I would be interested in knowing how many Oregon DC's have a copy of Art Croft's book now I believe in the third edition. It should be required reading/.text in all Chiropractic Colleges . I also wonder how many Oregon DC's have attended the seminars listed in other posts, , etc. Dan Dock, puts on a good seminar and is around quite often, at a very reasonable cost I might add. I am interested particularly whether board members, peer review members, are up to date on the information provided in these specific courses, and don't rely on the local conventions, or WSCC annual homecomings for their con't ed hours. And of a very big concern are the field doctors who never participate in these discussions. As I stated in a previous post, specifics are essential if we are going to create this program. As Dr. Ray elaborated upon in detail, the guidelines published by Croft are just that and lend themselves to accomplish what well meaning DC's such as Vern intend, but lets face it , what the powers to be are after is not this at all but " 12 visits in thirty days " regardless of what is necessary, relevant, fair, justified by published literature. Let's not play into their hands.The funny thing is that " they " might not even be in influential positions currently but may show up down the road to interpret vague language any way they can to meet their end. I can only support movement toward these rules if guidelines which reflect the real world are incorporated. Have a good day. Sherm Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " > Vern > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any third party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to receive and investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat excessively. We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides of any issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging and make recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over reaction to pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the Chiropractic profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990. > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , is that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive charging. For BOTH sides of the equation. > > I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new patients that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any improvement are told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they feel a little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and they still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that only treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 visits. This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is short sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue. > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely at implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. These studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen that has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in motor vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash " issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate not only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San Diego (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line. > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the least inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury sustained has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have permanent impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the last time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one must ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors or other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or for a poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature verifies the known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in Cervical Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include: > 1) Female gender > 2) History of prior spinal injury > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male) > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints) > 6) Body mass index/head neck index > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped) > 8) Non-failure of seat back > 9) Having the head turned at impact > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact. > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > 12) Front vs. rear seat position > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater) > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late whiplash, including: > 1) Female gender > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index) > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe initial symptoms > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs. > 5) Initial back pain > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had a protective effect. > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM > 10) Initial neurological symptoms > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > 15) Front seat position > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment or disability?, i.e.: > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc. > 2) Lower BMI > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe initial symptoms > 4) Initial back pain > 5) Spondylosis > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness > 7) Facet arthrosis > 8) History of neck pain or headaches > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy. > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve > 13) Scoliosis > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery > 16) Front seat position in car > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery > 18) Prior vertebral fracture > 19) Osteoporosis > 20) Osseous diseases > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the DC's chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner. > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? Compared to spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, long-term pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their related costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of familial consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality of life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about how the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better served to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and more efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are the poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be worth more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we have on the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced long-term costs we actually save with our treatment. > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that " think " we treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review Committee. > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. > > G. Ray, DC > > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. > 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Sherm, For the record. . .. ;-) I have taken @ 60 hours from Dr Dan Dock, DC and have perused Art Crofts book. Am currently attempting to digest it more thoroughly. I would agree with the earlier comment regarding cont. ed in the PIP arena. Definitely will help bring a doctor current on research and treatment protocol. Enjoyed meeting you at the Minnis fundraiser, will have to get together soon and swing the sticks. Sincerely, J. Vissers, D.C. From: Sherman [mailto:tsherm@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:57 AM Vern Saboe DC; mottray@... Cc: Oregondcs Subject: Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " I would be interested in knowing how many Oregon DC's have a copy of Art Croft's book now I believe in the third edition. It should be required reading/.text in all Chiropractic Colleges . I also wonder how many Oregon DC's have attended the seminars listed in other posts, , etc. Dan Dock, puts on a good seminar and is around quite often, at a very reasonable cost I might add. I am interested particularly whether board members, peer review members, are up to date on the information provided in these specific courses, and don't rely on the local conventions, or WSCC annual homecomings for their con't ed hours. And of a very big concern are the field doctors who never participate in these discussions. As I stated in a previous post, specifics are essential if we are going to create this program. As Dr. Ray elaborated upon in detail, the guidelines published by Croft are just that and lend themselves to accomplish what well meaning DC's such as Vern intend, but lets face it , what the powers to be are after is not this at all but " 12 visits in thirty days " regardless of what is necessary, relevant, fair, justified by published literature. Let's not play into their hands.The funny thing is that " they " might not even be in influential positions currently but may show up down the road to interpret vague language any way they can to meet their end. I can only support movement toward these rules if guidelines which reflect the real world are incorporated. Have a good day. Sherm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " > > > > > > > Vern > > > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any > > third > > > party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to > > receive and > > > investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat > > excessively. > > > We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides > > of any > > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging > > and make > > > recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER > > > Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over > > reaction to > > > pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the > > Chiropractic > > > profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990. > > > > > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , > > is > > > that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive > > charging. > > > For BOTH sides of the equation. > > > > > > I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new > > patients > > > that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any > > improvement are > > > told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they > > feel a > > > little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and > > they > > > still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that > > only > > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached > > > " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 > > visits. > > > This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is > > short > > > sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue. > > > > > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely > > at > > > implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft > > > developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. > > These > > > studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen > > that > > > has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in > > motor > > > vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash " > > > issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury > > > (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment > > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate > > not > > > only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's > > > guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San > > Diego > > > (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line. > > > > > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the > > least > > > inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury > > sustained > > > has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of > > > treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have > > permanent > > > impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the > > last > > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one > > must > > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there > > > pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors > > or > > > other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or > > for a > > > poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature > > verifies the > > > known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in > > Cervical > > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include: > > > 1) Female gender > > > 2) History of prior spinal injury > > > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male) > > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts > > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints) > > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index > > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped) > > > 8) Non-failure of seat back > > > 9) Having the head turned at impact > > > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact. > > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position > > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater) > > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph > > > > > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late > > whiplash, > > > including: > > > 1) Female gender > > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index) > > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe > > > initial symptoms > > > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs. > > > 5) Initial back pain > > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment > > > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms > > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had > > > a protective effect. > > > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM > > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms > > > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache > > > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs > > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis > > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > > > 15) Front seat position > > > > > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were > > > complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment > > or > > > disability?, i.e.: > > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc. > > > 2) Lower BMI > > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or > > > severe initial symptoms > > > 4) Initial back pain > > > 5) Spondylosis > > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness > > > 7) Facet arthrosis > > > 8) History of neck pain or headaches > > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides > > > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine > > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy. > > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve > > > 13) Scoliosis > > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond > > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery > > > 16) Front seat position in car > > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery > > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture > > > 19) Osteoporosis > > > 20) Osseous diseases > > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis > > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia > > > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the > > DC's > > > chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner. > > > > > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? > > Compared to > > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, > > long-term > > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their > > related > > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of > > familial > > > consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the > > > effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality > > of > > > life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about > > how > > > the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better > > served > > > to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and > > more > > > efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are > > the > > > poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be > > worth > > > more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we > > have on > > > the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced > > long-term > > > costs we actually save with our treatment. > > > > > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that > > " think " we > > > treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review > > Committee. > > > > > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. > > > > > > G. Ray, DC > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Disadvantages. . . . . the OBCE has already been falsely accused by some doctors of being “in bed” with the insurance companies. This would further perpetuate that myth. Also, please correct me if I am mistaken, but isn’t the OBCE supposed to regulate the profession? It would seem to me that the proposed Administrative rule is trying to clarify “the written guidelines for professional conduct”. If they can write an Administrative rule that clarifies the guidelines and allows them to testify for or against chiropractors, why is there so much fear and hand wringing over them just writing an Administrative rule? For what it is worth, this is not about caving in to the demands from outside sources. This is trying to find consensus amongst Chiropractors regarding areas that our profession is weak and working to improve those areas. Using a baseball analogy, if your guy in Left field is dropping fly balls, costing you runs, what do you do? Improve him, replace him, or move him to DH. This effort to address a weakness in our profession, (the inability to regulate those that excessively treat, treat without justification, or charge excessive fees) may not be seen by all as a weakness. However, those that are closes to the problem (OBCE, CAO, and others) seem to agree that there are some changes that would improve their ability to regulate those rogue chiropractors. Let’s improve our profession by teaching our doctors to justify our care thru outcome measurements. J. Vissers, D.C. From: Dr. Willard Bertrand [mailto:mail@...] Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 8:42 AM 'oregondc' Subject: RE: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " As an alternative to the proposed excessive treatment rule I suggest that the OBCE provide itself as a friend of the insurance industry in court proceedings where excessive treatment is alleged. With this type of testimony there should be no problem for the court to rule in favor of fair treatment guidelines. Simply put? The OBCE will draft administrative rules that would allow it to testify for or against chiropractors in Oregon who have exceeded the written guidelines for professional conduct. The OBCE would provide such expert testimony to any who wish to purchase the same. Adavantages: 1. low cost, as we do not spend the money on prosecution. 2. Make a profit as the insurer would surely pay to get the testimony 3. Control the IME problems by providing the best possible witness for concluding a case where an IME has created a loophole for insurers to crawl through. 4. Prevents the rotten apples from spoiling the whole barrel. Disavantages: 1. your turn. Willard Bertrand, D.C. Fw: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " > > > > > > > Vern > > > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any > > third > > > party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to > > receive and > > > investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat > > excessively. > > > We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides > > of any > > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging > > and make > > > recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER > > > Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over > > reaction to > > > pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the > > Chiropractic > > > profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990. > > > > > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , > > is > > > that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive > > charging. > > > For BOTH sides of the equation. > > > > > > I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new > > patients > > > that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any > > improvement are > > > told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they > > feel a > > > little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and > > they > > > still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that > > only > > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached > > > " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 > > visits. > > > This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is > > short > > > sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue. > > > > > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely > > at > > > implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft > > > developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. > > These > > > studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen > > that > > > has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in > > motor > > > vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash " > > > issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury > > > (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment > > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate > > not > > > only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's > > > guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San > > Diego > > > (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line. > > > > > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the > > least > > > inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury > > sustained > > > has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of > > > treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have > > permanent > > > impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the > > last > > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one > > must > > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there > > > pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors > > or > > > other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or > > for a > > > poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature > > verifies the > > > known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in > > Cervical > > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include: > > > 1) Female gender > > > 2) History of prior spinal injury > > > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male) > > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts > > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints) > > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index > > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped) > > > 8) Non-failure of seat back > > > 9) Having the head turned at impact > > > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact. > > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position > > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater) > > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph > > > > > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late > > whiplash, > > > including: > > > 1) Female gender > > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index) > > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe > > > initial symptoms > > > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs. > > > 5) Initial back pain > > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment > > > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms > > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had > > > a protective effect. > > > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM > > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms > > > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache > > > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs > > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis > > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > > > 15) Front seat position > > > > > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were > > > complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment > > or > > > disability?, i.e.: > > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc. > > > 2) Lower BMI > > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or > > > severe initial symptoms > > > 4) Initial back pain > > > 5) Spondylosis > > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness > > > 7) Facet arthrosis > > > 8) History of neck pain or headaches > > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides > > > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine > > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy. > > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve > > > 13) Scoliosis > > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond > > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery > > > 16) Front seat position in car > > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery > > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture > > > 19) Osteoporosis > > > 20) Osseous diseases > > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis > > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia > > > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the > > DC's > > > chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner. > > > > > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? > > Compared to > > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, > > long-term > > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their > > related > > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of > > familial > > > consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the > > > effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality > > of > > > life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about > > how > > > the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better > > served > > > to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and > > more > > > efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are > > the > > > poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be > > worth > > > more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we > > have on > > > the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced > > long-term > > > costs we actually save with our treatment. > > > > > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that > > " think " we > > > treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review > > Committee. > > > > > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. > > > > > > G. Ray, DC > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Hi jack & all, To continue this conversation: We are scheduling a 'meet and greet' for Phil Barnhart, State Representative of the 11th District here in Eugene and I just gottenoff the phone from talking with him. He is VERY interested in our issues of IME and PIP. As a psychologist, he understands the need (sometimes) to rehabilitate a person in order to get them back to what/where they were just prior to the accident. But one thing he said was very interesting: "The fact that you as a group are being proactive by writing such a piece of legislature goes a long way toward helping us as legislators to help you." He sees the issue as an ethical one: by us putting ourselves on notice (so to speak) about making sure we document and do timely exams (in whatever form or format we want) and, when necessary, call in a second opinion, we enable ourselves to serve the patient at the level of the patient's need. We are proving to the state that we are willing to set and follow our own guidelines, knowing full well that some cases fall outside of those parameters. The documentation then provides all the rationale that is needed. We will have a date for you for his gathering within the next day or so...it will be sometime in mid to late July. He is fascinating to talk with .... very knowledgeable on health issues...and very pro-chiropractic. Sunny Sunny Kierstyn, RN DCFibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon59 Santa Clara St.,Eugene, Oregon, 97404541-689-0935 Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Howdy: While I certainly don't know the details in this particular case, I'd like to see what clinical findings supported the average $1900/month/10 months for chiropractic care.....with the appropriate documentation there may be no problem at all in demonstrating this level of care is needed..... On the other hand, in way too many instances in the past, chiros have failed to document exactly the exam findings and progress or lack thereof that gives credible support for rational care of this intensity.... J. Pedersen DC OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Ok...the message from the "pro" group seems to be..."let's have an excessive treatment rule in order to regulate ourselves, and also to better DEFINE ourselves to other entities (i.e., the public, insurance companies, legislators). This will make us appear pro-active, help other's help us, and head-off future attacks." The message from the "nay" group seems to be..."what proof is there that we NEED such a rule? (i.e., have there been an excessive number of public complaints?), if we adopt an "excessive treatment rule" than shouldn't we adopt a "minimum treatment rule?", and are we legislating ourselves MORE STRINGENTLY than other groups (i.e, do M.D.'s, D.O.'s, or P.T.'s have similar excessive treatment rules). This argument being; if those groups DON'T have an excessive treatment rule, than perhaps we should just adopt THEIR language, and put ourselves on par with them (not below them) (i.e., free economy, let the market bear what it will). Recent history does reveal a "trend" or "pattern" with rule making. We are told there is a crisis; then when get a new set of rules. For example, the Board went to the Legislature a few years ago and told them that sexual abuse by Chiropractors was so rampant in Oregon, that they needed to raise our FEES in order to better investigate. Well, the Legislature investigated, and felt the need wasn't as great as the Board stated, and did not give the Board the fee increase they sought (notice however, we still got new sexual abuse language). Now, we're being told that there is a "crisis" within PIP and that we, as a profession, are overcharging and over utilizing (I would like to see one report, list of investigations/hearings, or list of complaints by the public, however, before I buy into this crisis mentality). This sounds VERY MUCH like SAIF telling the State Legislature in 1990 that they were going BROKE (losing a million dollars a day) and that Chiropractic needed to be eliminated from worker's compensation. Insurance companies posted a 42% PROFIT, as an industry, last year. Did YOUR income go up 40% last year!? Insurance premiums went up as much as 300%. I received an e-mail off this very list serve that revealed medications are marked up 200,000%! Is our Board concerned that our $46.00 adjustments are creating harm to the public within the PIP arena? (remember, the Board is supposed to regulate us ONLY to protect the public). Again, it should be incumbent upon the Board to PROVE a need for an excessive treatment rule, before it adopts such a rule. I think both the CAO and ODOC should be provided documentation to substantiate such a rule. That documentation should then be used JUDICIOUSLY to plug whatever cracks may (or may not) exist in the current rule. In my mind (as feeble as it is sometimes speculation of "future threat" does not constitute a current need. Appearing pro-active, and looking good to legislators, or State Harm, does not constitute a current need. Regulating ourselves more stringently than other professions CERTAINLY DOES NOT constitute a current need for an excessive treatment rule. Just MY lunch time thoughts. M. s, D.C. North Bend. Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule"> >> >> > > Vern> > > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costsinany> > third> > > party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authorityto> > receive and> > > investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat> > excessively.> > > We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look atbothsides> > of any> > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or overcharging> > and make> > > recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your "new" proposal forANOTHER> > > Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extremeover> > reaction to> > > pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the> > Chiropractic> > > profession as its "whipping boy" again as it did in 1990.> > >> > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to "put us in ourplace",> > is> > > that there are existing avenues to address over treatment orexcessive> > charging.> > > For BOTH sides of the equation.> > >> > > I also have concerns about "consensus" panels. I repeatedly getnew> > patients> > > that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any> > improvement are> > > told they are "all well", or they are released from care as soonasthey> > feel a> > > little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improveand> > they> > > still have the same problems they started with. If you have tenDC'sthat> > only> > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as havereached> > > "MMI", then their "consensus" is that all patients get "well" in5-6> > visits.> > > This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at bestis> > short> > > sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to amulti-facetedissue.> > >> > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking veryclosely> > at> > > implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. ArtCroft> > > developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcomestudies.> > These> > > studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatmentregimen> > that> > > has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patientsinjuredin> > motor> > > vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop "LateWhiplash"> > > issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplashinjury> > > (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has atreatment> > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need toeducate> > not> > > only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr.Croft's> > > guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute ofSan> > Diego> > > (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line.> > >> > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, andinthe> > least> > > inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where theinjury> > sustained> > > has caused structural and functional disability that requiresyears of> > > treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have> > permanent> > > impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (Whenwasthe> > last> > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?)Therefore,one> > must> > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned themtothere> > > pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there riskfactors> > or> > > other complicating factors, or other factors for a more seriousinjuryor> > for a> > > poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientificliterature> > verifies the> > > known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especiallyin> > Cervical> > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include:> > > 1) Female gender> > > 2) History of prior spinal injury> > > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentilemale)> > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts> > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-pointrestraints)> > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index> > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped)> > > 8) Non-failure of seat back> > > 9) Having the head turned at impact> > > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact.> > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)> > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position> > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater)> > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph> > >> > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late> > whiplash,> > > including:> > > 1) Female gender> > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index)> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)and/orsevere> > > initial symptoms> > > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs.> > > 5) Initial back pain> > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment> > > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms> > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain;non-usehad> > > a protective effect.> > > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM> > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms> > > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache> > > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs> > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond)> > > 15) Front seat position> > >> > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whethertherewere> > > complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long termtreatment> > or> > > disability?, i.e.:> > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc.> > > 2) Lower BMI> > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours)and/or> > > severe initial symptoms> > > 4) Initial back pain> > > 5) Spondylosis> > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness> > > 7) Facet arthrosis> > > 8) History of neck pain or headaches> > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides> > > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine> > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy.> > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve> > > 13) Scoliosis> > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond> > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery> > > 16) Front seat position in car> > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery> > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture> > > 19) Osteoporosis> > > 20) Osseous diseases> > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis> > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia> > > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient historyandthe> > DC's> > > chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner.> > >> > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what?> > Compared to> > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD,Radiology,> > long-term> > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, withtheir> > related> > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time,loss of> > familial> > > consort, loss of social function, premature death from thesequelae ofthe> > > effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of thequality> > of> > > life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world thetruthabout> > how> > > the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will bebetter> > served> > > to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, lesscostly,and> > more> > > efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as ifweare> > the> > > poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatmentshouldbe> > worth> > > more than standard medical care. Our true value is the markedeffectwe> > have on> > > the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced> > long-term> > > costs we actually save with our treatment.> > >> > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell thosethat> > "think" we> > > treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our PeerReview> > Committee.> > >> > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.> > >> > > G. Ray, DC> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Dr. RIchards, current privacy regulations and confidentiality oaths to serve on the OBCE do not permit me to divulge the material you request at this moment. I am not trying to deny you access to information. If I may have permission to print your request (this email) and present it to the Rules Advisory Committee thursday- tomorrow, I will take your request directly to the board and get you all the information I can minus the names. Keep in mind this would mean that you may have to sift thru or read thousands of pages of chart notes to come to a conclusion as to your belief that there have been clear violations with NSV rulings; (No Statutory Violation), or we could list the cases that were dismissed after more than 10 peers evaluated the case and came to the conclusion that there was a problem that we couldn't do anything about. I will honestly see what I can do without violating my oath of confidentiality. Oh how I wish there were more docs able to come to these meetings or volunteer for peer review. We need more. Do yu have time? Can you donate 6-8 days per year to serve on peer review? I'll check email one more time before I drive to Salem tomorrow to see if I have your permission to copy this email. I leave at 1:30 PM. My goal is truly to serve this profession and I aim to see what I can do to let you know I am seeing a problem that we honestly can't stop at this time. There is just no definitive rule for either under treatment, over treatment, or excessive billing. I'm just your average Joe with an X chromosome, that got talked into serving on the board. Minga Guerrero DC 1st year OBCE 20 years in practice n a message dated 5/12/2004 2:18:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, drbobdc@... writes: Ok...the message from the "pro" group seems to be..."let's have an excessive treatment rule in order to regulate ourselves, and also to better DEFINE ourselves to other entities (i.e., the public, insurance companies, legislators). This will make us appear pro-active, help other's help us, and head-off future attacks." The message from the "nay" group seems to be..."what proof is there that we NEED such a rule? (i.e., have there been an excessive number of public complaints?), if we adopt an "excessive treatment rule" than shouldn't we adopt a "minimum treatment rule?", and are we legislating ourselves MORE STRINGENTLY than other groups (i.e, do M.D.'s, D.O.'s, or P.T.'s have similar excessive treatment rules). This argument being; if those groups DON'T have an excessive treatment rule, than perhaps we should just adopt THEIR language, and put ourselves on par with them (not below them) (i.e., free economy, let the market bear what it will). Recent history does reveal a "trend" or "pattern" with rule making. We are told there is a crisis; then when get a new set of rules. For example, the Board went to the Legislature a few years ago and told them that sexual abuse by Chiropractors was so rampant in Oregon, that they needed to raise our FEES in order to better investigate. Well, the Legislature investigated, and felt the need wasn't as great as the Board stated, and did not give the Board the fee increase they sought (notice however, we still got new sexual abuse language). Now, we're being told that there is a "crisis" within PIP and that we, as a profession, are overcharging and over utilizing (I would like to see one report, list of investigations/hearings, or list of complaints by the public, however, before I buy into this crisis mentality). This sounds VERY MUCH like SAIF telling the State Legislature in 1990 that they were going BROKE (losing a million dollars a day) and that Chiropractic needed to be eliminated from worker's compensation. Insurance companies posted a 42% PROFIT, as an industry, last year. Did YOUR income go up 40% last year!? Insurance premiums went up as much as 300%. I received an e-mail off this very list serve that revealed medications are marked up 200,000%! Is our Board concerned that our $46.00 adjustments are creating harm to the public within the PIP arena? (remember, the Board is supposed to regulate us ONLY to protect the public). Again, it should be incumbent upon the Board to PROVE a need for an excessive treatment rule, before it adopts such a rule. I think both the CAO and ODOC should be provided documentation to substantiate such a rule. That documentation should then be used JUDICIOUSLY to plug whatever cracks may (or may not) exist in the current rule. In my mind (as feeble as it is sometimes speculation of "future threat" does not constitute a current need. Appearing pro-active, and looking good to legislators, or State Harm, does not constitute a current need. Regulating ourselves more stringently than other professions CERTAINLY DOES NOT constitute a current need for an excessive treatment rule. Just MY lunch time thoughts. M. s, D.C. North Bend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 “If they can write an Administrative rule that clarifies the guidelines and allows them to testify for or against chiropractors, why is there so much fear and hand wringing over them just writing an Administrative rule?” The reason for this acceptance is that this action will apply to chiropractors on a case by case basis at no cost to the professional board. The proposed rule will apply to EVERY chiropractor, even those who are running cash practices with market determined fees, and will cost the profession lots of dollars in prosecution expenses. Remember the costs of administration that go with every additional rule. Its like having a child is free, but what about the education and the weddings? I am a father of 7! Once in Union, when I was the mayor, everyone though it would be cool to pave all the streets. Great idea, except that we would still be paying off the bond 10 years before the streets would require extensive maintenance, which we could not afford in addition to the initial construction bond. I just do not see that there is justification for additional rules that will certainly cost money, and should, but probably won’t create widespread apprehension about documentation of care (support for enforcing the presently unenforceable ED Manual which I believe is the true, but probably subconscious, desire behind the OBCE’s attempts to tighten its ability to prosecute chiropractors for sloppy note taking), all of which will further narrow the scope of chiropractic by making it too expensive to maintain a practice with enough paperwork to do anything but analyze and adjust subluxations and leave our profession stuck in a permanent state of suspended animation. I would prefer to see a profession that allows cash practices to charge what the market will bear. I don’t care if someone charges $5000 for single adjustment as long as the client understands what they are getting and what they are paying for. Remember I belong to Alternaire, etc where fees are limited. Why add the burden of limiting the cash practice? Let the market work here so we can compete. Not to drag on, but what about the patient who gets a series of 10 treatments for a $300 a treatment with a technique that no chiropractor has tried think early Pettibon, early on, early Gonstead, etc. How will the pioneers travel in Oregon? Not at all with the restrictions proposed. Suppose Dr. Oregon’s technique were judged to stray too far from the status quo and now his fees are excessive for giving treatments that are not considered useful. What protections are there against this? None that I could fathom. As usual the OBCE means well, but is biased in favor of regulation rather than administration. Thank you OBCE for your continued and diligent attempts, but simply working hard is not the same as success. You have not hit the mark and should admit it and face the responsibility of starting again. Willard Bertrand, D.C. Fw: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " Re: " Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule " > > > > > > > Vern > > > There already exists a process for excessive treatment and costs in any > > third > > > party payment system, including PIP. The OBCE has the authority to > > receive and > > > investigate complaints against DC's that appear to charge or treat > > excessively. > > > We also have in place a Peer Review Committee that can look at both sides > > of any > > > issues (DC -vs. - Insurance carrier) on over treatment or over charging > > and make > > > recommendations to the OBCE for action. Your " new " proposal for ANOTHER > > > Administrative Rule on this issue is, in my opinion, an extreme over > > reaction to > > > pressure from outside influences, whose only motive is to use the > > Chiropractic > > > profession as its " whipping boy " again as it did in 1990. > > > > > > What we should be telling those who are pushing to " put us in our place " , > > is > > > that there are existing avenues to address over treatment or excessive > > charging. > > > For BOTH sides of the equation. > > > > > > I also have concerns about " consensus " panels. I repeatedly get new > > patients > > > that have already been to another or other DC's, and without any > > improvement are > > > told they are " all well " , or they are released from care as soon as they > > feel a > > > little better. Yet the patient tells me that they did not improve and > > they > > > still have the same problems they started with. If you have ten DC's that > > only > > > treat each patient 5 or 6 times and release them from care as have reached > > > " MMI " , then their " consensus " is that all patients get " well " in 5-6 > > visits. > > > This cannot be considered, by any measure, scientific, and at best is > > short > > > sighted, and is an extremely subjective approach to a multi-faceted issue. > > > > > > I also feel strongly that we should, as a group, be looking very closely > > at > > > implementing the treatment guidelines for PIP cases that Dr. Art Croft > > > developed, using the existing scientific literature on outcome studies. > > These > > > studies already show that Chiropractic care is the ONLY treatment regimen > > that > > > has any validity in improving and stabilizing those patients injured in > > motor > > > vehicle collision, especially CADS and those that develop " Late Whiplash " > > > issues. In the Croft guidelines (Grades I-V), a grade II whiplash injury > > > (without neurological signs or other complicating factors) has a treatment > > > longevity of up to 29 weeks and up to 34 treatments. We need to educate > > not > > > only the insurance industry, but also our own colleagues. Dr. Croft's > > > guidelines can be accessed through the Spine Research Institute of San > > Diego > > > (SRISD) and through CRASH. Both are on-line. > > > > > > Your example of the case that cost $19K, is at best, extreme, and in the > > least > > > inflammatory and reactionary. There are those cases where the injury > > sustained > > > has caused structural and functional disability that requires years of > > > treatment, not months, and over 10% of those injured in MVC's have > > permanent > > > impairment and lifetime disability in one form or another. (When was the > > last > > > time Allsnake of Snake Farm offered you that information?) Therefore, one > > must > > > ask, was the $19K helpful to the patient in that it returned them to there > > > pre-functional status? What was the diagnosis? Were there risk factors > > or > > > other complicating factors, or other factors for a more serious injury or > > for a > > > poor prognosis? If one looks at the existing scientific literature > > verifies the > > > known risk factors for injury and for a poor prognosis, especially in > > Cervical > > > Acceleration-Deceleration trauma (CADS). These include: > > > 1) Female gender > > > 2) History of prior spinal injury > > > 3) Poor head restraint geometry/tall occupant (80th percentile male) > > > 4) Rear vs. other vector impacts > > > 5) Use of seat belts/shoulder harness (standard three-point restraints) > > > 6) Body mass index/head neck index > > > 7) Out-of-position occupant (e.g., leaning forward/slumped) > > > 8) Non-failure of seat back > > > 9) Having the head turned at impact > > > 10) Non-awareness of impending impact. > > > 11) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > > > 12) Front vs. rear seat position > > > 13) Impact by vehicle of greater mass (i.e., 25% greater) > > > 14) Crash speed under 10 mph > > > > > > Additionally, the literature points to known risk factors for late > > whiplash, > > > including: > > > 1) Female gender > > > 2) Lower BMI (body mass index) > > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or severe > > > initial symptoms > > > 4) Ligamentous instability on radiographs. > > > 5) Initial back pain > > > 6) Greater subjective cognitive impairment > > > 7) Greater number of initial symptoms > > > 8) Use of seat belt shoulder harness for neck (not back) pain; non-use had > > > a protective effect. > > > 9) Initial physical findings of loss of ROM > > > 10) Initial neurological symptoms > > > 11) Past history of neck pain or headache > > > 12) Degenerative changes seen on radiographs > > > 13) Loss or reversal of cervical lordosis > > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond) > > > 15) Front seat position > > > > > > Also, did you check to see if, in this particular case, whether there were > > > complicating factors that lead to a poor prognosis and long term treatment > > or > > > disability?, i.e.: > > > 1) Metabolic disorders, i.e. diabetes, etc. > > > 2) Lower BMI > > > 3) Immediate/early onset of symptoms (i.e., within 12 hours) and/or > > > severe initial symptoms > > > 4) Initial back pain > > > 5) Spondylosis > > > 6) Use of seat belt and shoulder harness > > > 7) Facet arthrosis > > > 8) History of neck pain or headaches > > > 9) Rheumatoid arthritis or other arthritides > > > 10) Degenerative changes on radiographs of the spine > > > 11) Ankylosing spondylitis or other spondylarthropathy. > > > 12) Loss/reversal of cervical lordotic curve > > > 13) Scoliosis > > > 14) Increasing age (i.e., middle age and beyond > > > 15) Prior cervical spinal surgery > > > 16) Front seat position in car > > > 17) Prior lumbar spinal surgery > > > 18) Prior vertebral fracture > > > 19) Osteoporosis > > > 20) Osseous diseases > > > 21) Spinal stenosis and/or foraminal stenosis > > > 22) Paraplegia or quadriplegia > > > Of course, these factors must be documented in the patient history and the > > DC's > > > chart notes, in an accurate and concise manner. > > > > > > Then, in closing, is the $19K truly excessive? Compared to what? > > Compared to > > > spinal surgery, at a minimum of $80K? Compared to PT, MD, Radiology, > > long-term > > > pharmacologic dependence, Occupational Therapy, ad nauseum, with their > > related > > > costs of $100K+? In addition, what are the costs of lost time, loss of > > familial > > > consort, loss of social function, premature death from the sequelae of the > > > effects of the injury and the gradual, stead deterioration of the quality > > of > > > life? Personally, it is about time that we tell the world the truth about > > how > > > the insurance industry is duping the public. Our efforts will be better > > served > > > to broadcast to the public that we are more effective, less costly, and > > more > > > efficient than any other form of treatment and stop acting as if we are > > the > > > poor cousins in the health care delivery field. Our treatment should be > > worth > > > more than standard medical care. Our true value is the marked effect we > > have on > > > the functionality we return to our patient's lives and the reduced > > long-term > > > costs we actually save with our treatment. > > > > > > My advice: Stop crying that the sky is falling and tell those that > > " think " we > > > treat or charge excessively to contact the OBCE and our Peer Review > > Committee. > > > > > > But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. > > > > > > G. Ray, DC > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Minga: I think most people aren't aware of what you have written. I am CC it to the list. It will provoke more responses and widen our understanding. Are there lots of these cases? I thought most of the complaints were sexual or gross mistreatment. Ann Goldeen Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Ann,Oh if only I could just leave it all to peer review! however, the legislature makes the rules that govern this thing I've volunteered for: the OBCE. Sure we as a profession, can make suggestions to add rules or change rules. But as you can tell from this process on the listserv, it's no easy task to make a change. As it stands, when a complaint is made, The board must respond. We can send items to the peer review for their "expert advice". Once the advice is returned to us, we must make a determination and return an answer to whom ever is complaining. We are not allowed to say, we don't want to make a determination. We are not allowed to ask peer review to make a final determination. I think maybe a lot of doctors don't understand the job of the board. I know I didn't even fully understand it until I was neck deep. I'm still learning in my first year. Also, I have learned that even if the peer review committee thinks there is obvious over billing or treatment without proper exam, justification , excessive treatment, etc, there is often, NO clear rule to judge it. There is simply a small thing about not violating "professional conduct". The fact that professonal conduct is left open to very broad intrepretation, leaves no room to call it a clear "violation of statute". We've been advised time and again by our legal experts that we would lose a case if it were contested. We/ve been advised to rewrite the law. As I understand it, We choose not to file a case and spend lots of $ when we know we'll lose. So even if we do see a case that seems to be unfair to a patient, we have to rule "No Statutory Violation" NSV. The public (patients) are always calling and writing us back wondering how we could say such a thing. They are often upset. I've seen this happen 3-4 times already in less than a year. (MY time on the board.) Minga Guerrero DCIn a message dated 5/11/2004 9:33:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, anngoldeen@... writes: Minga: Why not just leave the whole issue to peer review? It sounds like their department. We already have a mechanism in place for complaints and disputes. Let's use it, instead of adding more bureaucracy. Ann Goldeen ----- Original Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 THanks for reposting these comments from Minga. There is no clear measuring stick to determine excessive treatment nor "under-treatment." During my four years on Peer Review this is what we ran smack tab into, we had several of the well known IME colleagues in front of the committee but without a clear evidence based measuring stick (outcomes assessment tools) we were powerless to act. In 1994 (I think this was the year) as I recall the OBCE attempted to act against Dr. Dick Tilden relative to an IME situation and because of this lack of a clear measuring stick of what constitutes reasonable and necessary care the OBCE lost the contested case. This cost the OBCE a huge amount of money, which since is only self funded by all lic DCs in the state, could ill afford. Hence the OBCE is finacially unwilling to act when there is no clear violation and there is no clear violation because we all have our own measuring sticks (opinions) as per the appropriate frequency and duration of care etc., etc., etc. Evidence based outcomes assessment is the measuring stick and where the entire health care industry is headed and has been headed for quite some time. I been thinking about all the valuable comments relative to this issue and it has come to me that these new proposed rules could be a real positive opportunity, and opportunity to lead the rest of the health care professions here in Oregon in the cost effective treatment of musculoskeletal problems. We are the musculoskeletal experts lets use this opportunity to validate that we are indeed the experts and own it. Vern Saboe Re: "Proposed Excessive Treatment Admin. Rule" Ann,Oh if only I could just leave it all to peer review! however, the legislature makes the rules that govern this thing I've volunteered for: the OBCE. Sure we as a profession, can make suggestions to add rules or change rules. But as you can tell from this process on the listserv, it's no easy task to make a change. As it stands, when a complaint is made, The board must respond. We can send items to the peer review for their "expert advice". Once the advice is returned to us, we must make a determination and return an answer to whom ever is complaining. We are not allowed to say, we don't want to make a determination. We are not allowed to ask peer review to make a final determination. I think maybe a lot of doctors don't understand the job of the board. I know I didn't even fully understand it until I was neck deep. I'm still learning in my first year. Also, I have learned that even if the peer review committee thinks there is obvious over billing or treatment without proper exam, justification , excessive treatment, etc, there is often, NO clear rule to judge it. There is simply a small thing about not violating "professional conduct". The fact that professonal conduct is left open to very broad intrepretation, leaves no room to call it a clear "violation of statute". We've been advised time and again by our legal experts that we would lose a case if it were contested. We/ve been advised to rewrite the law. As I understand it, We choose not to file a case and spend lots of $ when we know we'll lose. So even if we do see a case that seems to be unfair to a patient, we have to rule "No Statutory Violation" NSV. The public (patients) are always calling and writing us back wondering how we could say such a thing. They are often upset. I've seen this happen 3-4 times already in less than a year. (MY time on the board.) Minga Guerrero DCIn a message dated 5/11/2004 9:33:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, anngoldeen@... writes: Minga: Why not just leave the whole issue to peer review? It sounds like their department. We already have a mechanism in place for complaints and disputes. Let's use it, instead of adding more bureaucracy. Ann Goldeen ----- Original OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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