Attorneys Practicing Chiropractic

[Guest guest]

Dear List Serve,

Wow what a controversy!

Just for the record Gatti and Gatti have never told any of our patients to seek anther opinion as someone suggested. Mr. Dan Gatti highly respects DC's and was helped greatly by a DC after his accident and why he got involved in the PI business. They are just trying to help us on the small cases, that they can no longer take on since the rules have changed.

Their education and another attorneys have helped many of us avoid the pitfalls. Gatti and Gatti have a working relationship with the adjuster who invented Colossus and came over from the Dark Side. I personally have seen many DC's chart notes and they are quite poor. If we want the respect, then why not chart the way MD's do? Especially if that is what is desirable for the carriers. If you want to deal with insurance that you have to be willing to play the game and play it well or you could cause serious financial problems for your patients and your practice. If you don't like Colossus, then don't blame the attorneys, blame our poor laws here in Oregon and work on Political Action Committees and on your legislatures to change them as our PI laws are not consumer friendly.

The facts are the facts. More and more carriers are refusing to go into arbitration or settle. They know they can win by forcing a trial as many cases are only a two-three thousand dollars over the PIP max or less, once the IME has denied. No sane patient is going to risk $4,000 to pay attorney fees if they loose, so they just back down. Just do what you can, so it never gets to that point for you or your patient. That is the whole idea of understanding the rules of the game, so you can stay out of court and get paid now. Plus with a past history of easy settlements, with the old game, we don't have a lot of precedence that has been set. Everyone is starting over and you have to find the patients that will risk the cost to get new precedence set which will then encourage more to go to trial.

We see an average of 12 MVA patients a week and I deal with all types of cases and all types of attorneys and the word on the street is the same. Do the best chart noting you can up front and if necessary get the backing of an MD on any questionable cases ASAP. Here is an example; patient is in her 11 month of care, 6 months with us with no hassles(they have already approved a 7 month of care) and no IME and car damage less than $1000. What is the difference? For 5 months she saw her MD and a PT and had RX drugs. Of course all those failed her, but she has the high score, so her claim gets no red flags and stays in the system for the full 12 months of PIP. I can't change the system and neither can any attorney, but we can learn how it works and understand when it fails us, which it will often.

I think everyone totally misunderstood what I was trying to do, it was to help fill a gap, as it appeared many don't know about Colossus or the fact that carriers are forcing insureds into trial. KOIN News ran a huge story last summer on the this problem and the carriers that use it, but somehow the word hasn't got out there. All medical providers are effected and all patients regardless of who they see, we just happen to be on the bottom of the food chain unfortunately, and we get stuck with some attorneys that don't have enough faith in what we do, such as Dr. Freeman's expertise, but their lack of faith probably comes from not enough trial history here in Oregon.

I know Vern is working on some fabulous legislation to drive carriers more into the arbitration process (which cost the patient much less) and make the IME process fair and equitable. He will need your support to get this passed, so keep a watch on the process and get involved, so you can make a difference in your profession. I am just a lowly Billing Manager and doctor's wife, so I don't get much recognition on my opinions in the political realm, but you can, and your patients can have even a stronger voice in making these changes.

Sorry that some misunderstood what I was trying to do.

Stockton

Attorneys practicing chiropractic

I have about had it with attorneys who advise our patients to see a neurologist or other chiropractor for a second opinion during their initial consultation. It maddens me even further when the attorney does this while the patient is within the first month of care. I believe we should start naming these attorneys on this list so we can steer our patients to more chiropractic friendly legal help. This happened last week with an attorney in Corvallis, and when I advised the patient to see someone else in Albany, that attorney did the very same thing. I hate to think it is just me. I bet more attorneys are doing this than we think. After all as one stated to my patient, chiropractors are not very high up on the medical hierarchy list. I contacted both and expressed my displeasure, stating that if this patient needed a second opinion I would be the first to send them out for one, but seeing as they were just in the second week of care at the time and progressing tremendously, I did not feel it was the attorney's place to be practicing chiropractic, and assured them I would not practice law!! So, what do you all think, should we begin listing these attorneys on this forum or not. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Nice post and again I so admire your energy and commitment to the chiropractic profession....thank you!

As per the Oregon Legislature and the political process we are making inroads, building critical one on one relationships with law makers like hasn't been seen since the 50's and 60's!

At the CAO's convention tonight I will have an exciting announcement regarding a project I have been working on for two years now to get approved and it's now a reality.

This new program at the Capitol building in Salem will raise the level of the profession's presence to an unbelievable level it's going to be nothing less than absolutely HUGE for the profession for years to come. It will make chiropractic care common place, mainstream, just an everyday normal process of health care delivery to the men and women in Salem that make our laws!

It would not have been possible with out the wonderful help of one exceptional woman who I now consider a personal friend and a friend to the profession. She is in fact the most powerful women at the state Capitol I'm talking about the Honorable Speaker of the House Rep. Minnis !!

speaks tonight at our state convention (5:00 PM), I wanted her to speak Saturday but her schedule would not permit it. I'm afraid the attendance will be quite sparse tonight because most colleagues need to work Friday and then come Sat., and Sun. Nonetheless we need as many bodies as possible tonight at the Columbia River DoubleTree Hotel to listen to her and show the Speaker our collective thanks.

Minnis is such a class act, so kind, and yet strong on issues that she feels are critical to the state. She is very gracious and will be fine with whatever number of colleagues show up she will understand.

But please dear colleagues and chiropractic assistants if it's at all possible come to the convention tonight if for no other reason than to help fill the room for this exceptional woman who has really gone to bat for us.

You can come to the Speaker's address at no cost, you don't have to be signed up for the convention, just come and show support for her and there is no cost!

The new Capitol program Speaker Minnis helped me get approved is going to be incredible for the profession and all colleagues across the state regardless of their state or national association memberships will be invited to participate...everyone should share in this windfall for the profession.

If I don't see you at the CAO's convention this weekend have a wonderful weekend!

WE BE ON A ROLL GUYS AN GALS !!!!!!!

Vern Saboe, DC

President Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany

Attorneys practicing chiropractic

I have about had it with attorneys who advise our patients to see a neurologist or other chiropractor for a second opinion during their initial consultation. It maddens me even further when the attorney does this while the patient is within the first month of care. I believe we should start naming these attorneys on this list so we can steer our patients to more chiropractic friendly legal help. This happened last week with an attorney in Corvallis, and when I advised the patient to see someone else in Albany, that attorney did the very same thing. I hate to think it is just me. I bet more attorneys are doing this than we think. After all as one stated to my patient, chiropractors are not very high up on the medical hierarchy list. I contacted both and expressed my displeasure, stating that if this patient needed a second opinion I would be the first to send them out for one, but seeing as they were just in the second week of care at the time and progressing tremendously, I did not feel it was the attorney's place to be practicing chiropractic, and assured them I would not practice law!! So, what do you all think, should we begin listing these attorneys on this forum or not. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

THANK YOU!!! for your thoughtful letter and

explaination. Since I am the person who started this firestorm, I

would like to respond to you personally, albeit by e-mail.

I am thankful for your regard for my profession in that it is your

desire that we get paid. However, it is my feeling that attorneys

have an ethical and professional obligation to speak to the treating

doctor, whether it be a dc or md prior to even hinting to, none-the-

less giving advise to their client, our patient that they should seek

a second opinion. Can you imagine the response if an attorney

advised their client, currently seeing an md, to go get a second

opinion by a dc????

I have no problem what-so-ever of my patient seeking a second

opinion. Whether they are involved in a MVC or not. I just wished

that the attorney would pick up the phone, call the tx. dc, and go

over the case first, instead of giving their client a copy of a spine

clinic name and phone number to go see. Especially since I was the

one who referred the patient to the attorney's office in the first

place.

Now to Dr. Freeman. I feel that you understand my point and

frustration very well. Yes, I would be more than happy to name the

attorney most recently involved in this practice with my patient.

Yes I did refer the patient to his office that has several attorneys

practicing in the office, and who typically works well with dcs.

However, I do not think Mr. nor many of the dcs on this

listserv would like the name listed if you get my drift.

I think we have about beat this dead horse over the head enough. My

original hope was that it would raise the awareness of both the dcs

on this list and the attorneys who browse this list, sending the

message that the avenue of communication goes both ways, and I think

it has worked.

Sincerely,

Grice, DC

Albany, OR

[Guest guest]

I usually learn something everyday, today was no exception. The recent exchanges about doctors and lawyers trying to help the same patient/client reminded me that we attorneys need to pick up the phone and communicate with the primary treating physicians when we make legal recommendations concerning second opinion doctors. And although I pride myself in doing just that, I sat back and thought, and it didn't take me long to think of a case where I had suggested a second opinion early on in a case that I knew was going to be hotly contested in terms of causation, and I did not give the primary physician the courtesy of call. That's really inexcusable when one considers that virtually every chiropractor in this state has voice mail and is very accessible. I did give Dr. Grice a call to make sure that I wasn't the offending attorney in this particular case, and I can at least have some peace of mind in that regard. I do have to admit, however, that I've undoubtedly been guilty of the same shoddy customer service in other cases. Thanks for the lesson. G. , Gatti, Gatti, et. al.

RE: Attorneys Practicing Chiropractic

Thanks, Ron. I see your point. Hopefully, given the people involved, the issue was more of one of misunderstanding/miscommunication.

D Freeman Mailing address: 1165 Union Street NE, Suite 300Salem, Oregon 97301ph 503 586-0127 fax 503 763-3581cell 503 871-0715 drmfreeman@...

-----Original Message-----From: rongrice01 [mailto:rongrice@...]Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 5:58 PM Subject: Attorneys Practicing ChiropracticTHANK YOU!!! for your thoughtful letter and explaination. Since I am the person who started this firestorm, I would like to respond to you personally, albeit by e-mail. I am thankful for your regard for my profession in that it is your desire that we get paid. However, it is my feeling that attorneys have an ethical and professional obligation to speak to the treating doctor, whether it be a dc or md prior to even hinting to, none-the-less giving advise to their client, our patient that they should seek a second opinion. Can you imagine the response if an attorney advised their client, currently seeing an md, to go get a second opinion by a dc????I have no problem what-so-ever of my patient seeking a second opinion. Whether they are involved in a MVC or not. I just wished that the attorney would pick up the phone, call the tx. dc, and go over the case first, instead of giving their client a copy of a spine clinic name and phone number to go see. Especially since I was the one who referred the patient to the attorney's office in the first place.Now to Dr. Freeman. I feel that you understand my point and frustration very well. Yes, I would be more than happy to name the attorney most recently involved in this practice with my patient. Yes I did refer the patient to his office that has several attorneys practicing in the office, and who typically works well with dcs. However, I do not think Mr. nor many of the dcs on this listserv would like the name listed if you get my drift. I think we have about beat this dead horse over the head enough. My original hope was that it would raise the awareness of both the dcs on this list and the attorneys who browse this list, sending the message that the avenue of communication goes both ways, and I think it has worked. Sincerely, Grice, DCAlbany, OROregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.