Re: You Cant Fix What You Deny

[Guest guest]

Yet another article that seems to blame the patient.

I might add to Dr. Schutt of Thomson Medstat

comment there is also some denial going on in the medical profession.

I witnessed a coworker go from a heavy 265 # to 500 # in a few years (<4). Hormonal he was TOLD.

I watched him eat in a red lobster "all you can eat" popcorn shrimp, sitting in a chair that I marveled at. Meanwhile, my wife and I had a Caesar salad, the only thing we could eat.

An educated, intelligent guy. I saw him eating a bag of cheese puffs at work - his keyboard was yellow - no joke. He controlled his HTN with a "small pill" - his description. He could not stand at the urinal. He road a cart from parking to his desk. He couldn't walk more than 50 ft.

An extreme case perhaps, but it underlies the "smaller" problem, possibly we all have. A design that makes us grow, if we don't curb our intake enough to NOT grow. Perhaps, if the pill makers will learn to control that growth?

Well, one thing is, they'll lose a S/L of money on HTN drugs. Maybe 18$ billion.

Regards.

[ ] You Cant Fix What You Deny

Survey: Most obese claim to eat healthy By MIKE STOBBE, AP Medical Writer8/2/06<snips>

"There is, perhaps, some nial going on. Or there isa lack of understanding of what does it mean to beeating healthy, and what is vigorous exercise," saidDr. Schutt of Thomson Medstat, theMichigan-based health-care research firm thatconducted the survey.Obesity was determined by body-mass index, acalculation based on height and weight. Using BMI, aman 5-feet-10 would be considered overweight at174-208 pounds, and obese at 209 pounds or more.Whoopee, I'm not near obese. Cupla pounds I won't even be overweight.

Those demographics are generally consistent with thefederal health survey that actually measures andweighs people, said Schutt, the company's associatemedical director.It was surprising how some responses from obese andoverweight people paralleled those of thinnerrespondents."The numbers aren't wildly different," Schutt said.Thomson Medstat is a data collection and analysiscompany that contracts with the federal government and about 20 states, on health projects. The data abouteating and exercise are part of a larger package ofsurvey information being marketed to employers,hospitals and other customers. It is not beingpublished in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

..

[Guest guest]

Another perspective I've observed among overweight people at work is

the claim " I don't like fruits and vegetables " .

One woman at work came to be for suggestions on her diet when she

began losing weight because of an unhappy relationship. She wanted to

seize the opportunity to make a larger and more permanent change. I

suggested a diet high in fruits and vegetables (F-Vs), fish, and high

quality carbs. She dismissed this suggestion because of her dislike of

F-Vs. My teenagers have both gone through a phase of claiming this,

but seemed to be growing out of it. Thus, I was surprised to find

this attitude in a mid-30's adult. To her credit, she has lost 80

pounds and kept it off eating fixed-portion, Lean Cuisine-type meals.

Lots of salt and no fiber or vegetables to speak of. " CR " , but no " ON " .

Others, too, have made this claim. Their perceptions seem to be that

they are eating " normal healthy " and my salad is " extremist " .

-Diane

>

> Survey: Most obese claim to eat healthy

> By MIKE STOBBE,

> AP Medical Writer

> 8/2/06

>

>

> More than three-quarters of obese Americans say they

> have healthy eating habits, according to a survey of

> more than 11,000 people.

>

> About 40 percent of obese people also said they do

> " vigorous " exercise at least three times a week, the

> telephone survey found.

>

> " There is, perhaps, some denial going on. Or there is

> a lack of understanding of what does it mean to be

> eating healthy, and what is vigorous exercise, " said

> Dr. Schutt of Thomson Medstat, the

> Michigan-based health-care research firm that

> conducted the survey.

>

> The survey also found that 28 percent of obese people

> reported snacking two or more times a day, only

> slightly more than 24 percent of normal weight people

> who said they did.

>

> But the survey failed to ask people what — and how

> much — they ate, noted Dr. Koplan of Atlanta's

> Emory University.

>

> " The questions leave out quantity, " said Koplan, who

> chairs an Institute of Medicine committee on progress

> in preventing childhood obesity.

>

> Roughly two-thirds of Americans are overweight or

> heavier, and nearly one-third qualify as obese,

> according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and

> Prevention.

>

> Respondents to the survey were contacted through

> computer random digit dialing in January through

> March. The surveyors relied on the respondents to be

> truthful about their height, weight and other answers.

>

> Obesity was determined by body-mass index, a

> calculation based on height and weight. Using BMI, a

> man 5-feet-10 would be considered overweight at

> 174-208 pounds, and obese at 209 pounds or more.

>

> About 3,100 of the people in the survey were obese or

> morbidly obese; an estimated 4,200 more people were

> overweight; about 3,800 were normal weight and about

> 200 were underweight, according to the Thomson

> Medstat.

>

> Those demographics are generally consistent with the

> federal health survey that actually measures and

> weighs people, said Schutt, the company's associate

> medical director.

>

> It was surprising how some responses from obese and

> overweight people paralleled those of thinner

> respondents.

>

> For example, about 19 percent of obese people said

> they always read nutritional labels on food packages,

> compared with 24 percent of normal-weight people. And

> about 29 percent of obese people said they eat out at

> restaurants three or more times a week, compared with

> 25 percent of normal-weight people.

>

> " The numbers aren't wildly different, " Schutt said.

>

> One of the largest differences was the answer to the

> question: How often do you eat all of the food you are

> served at restaurants? About 41 percent of obese

> people said they always did, while 31 percent of

> normal weight people always did.

>

> Thomson Medstat is a data collection and analysis

> company that contracts with the federal government and

> about 20 states, on health projects. The data about

> eating and exercise are part of a larger package of

> survey information being marketed to employers,

> hospitals and other customers. It is not being

> published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

>

> The survey had a sampling margin of error of plus or

> minus 1 percentage point, according to the company.

>

>

>

>

> Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights

> reserved. The information contained in the AP News

> report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or

> redistributed without the prior written authority of

> The Associated Press.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Pizza tastes better than kale. And people, very simply, are

determined not to change.

This reminds me of conversations I have had with my GP. She has told

me more than once that: " You cannot get anyone to change anything

about their lifestyle, in order to improve their health " .

When I replied: " Well, if I see some persuasive information today,

it is very likely I will change my behaviour tomorrow. " Her reply

was, with a smile: " Well then, you are abnormal! "

It is obvious that the majority of people simply DO NOT CARE. This

is something I just do not comprehend. And so long as not caring

does not affect others for whom they are responsible, then I suppose

it is their right. But they do expect everyone else, one way or

another, to pay for their extra, avoidable, medical expenses.

There were some data posted here a year or so ago which showed that

in general the longer you live the less your aggregate lifetime

medical expenses.

Rodney.

>

> Another perspective I've observed among overweight people at work is

> the claim " I don't like fruits and vegetables " .

>

> One woman at work came to be for suggestions on her diet when she

> began losing weight because of an unhappy relationship. She wanted

to

> seize the opportunity to make a larger and more permanent change. I

> suggested a diet high in fruits and vegetables (F-Vs), fish, and

high

> quality carbs. She dismissed this suggestion because of her dislike

of

> F-Vs. My teenagers have both gone through a phase of claiming this,

> but seemed to be growing out of it. Thus, I was surprised to find

> this attitude in a mid-30's adult. To her credit, she has lost 80

> pounds and kept it off eating fixed-portion, Lean Cuisine-type

meals.

> Lots of salt and no fiber or vegetables to speak of. " CR " , but

no " ON " .

>

> Others, too, have made this claim. Their perceptions seem to be

that

> they are eating " normal healthy " and my salad is " extremist " .

>

> -Diane

>

>

> --- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@>

wrote:

> >

> > Survey: Most obese claim to eat healthy

> > By MIKE STOBBE,

> > AP Medical Writer

> > 8/2/06

> >

> >

> > More than three-quarters of obese Americans say they

> > have healthy eating habits, according to a survey of

> > more than 11,000 people.

> >

> > About 40 percent of obese people also said they do

> > " vigorous " exercise at least three times a week, the

> > telephone survey found.

> >

> > " There is, perhaps, some denial going on. Or there is

> > a lack of understanding of what does it mean to be

> > eating healthy, and what is vigorous exercise, " said

> > Dr. Schutt of Thomson Medstat, the

> > Michigan-based health-care research firm that

> > conducted the survey.

> >

> > The survey also found that 28 percent of obese people

> > reported snacking two or more times a day, only

> > slightly more than 24 percent of normal weight people

> > who said they did.

> >

> > But the survey failed to ask people what — and how

> > much — they ate, noted Dr. Koplan of Atlanta's

> > Emory University.

> >

> > " The questions leave out quantity, " said Koplan, who

> > chairs an Institute of Medicine committee on progress

> > in preventing childhood obesity.

> >

> > Roughly two-thirds of Americans are overweight or

> > heavier, and nearly one-third qualify as obese,

> > according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and

> > Prevention.

> >

> > Respondents to the survey were contacted through

> > computer random digit dialing in January through

> > March. The surveyors relied on the respondents to be

> > truthful about their height, weight and other answers.

> >

> > Obesity was determined by body-mass index, a

> > calculation based on height and weight. Using BMI, a

> > man 5-feet-10 would be considered overweight at

> > 174-208 pounds, and obese at 209 pounds or more.

> >

> > About 3,100 of the people in the survey were obese or

> > morbidly obese; an estimated 4,200 more people were

> > overweight; about 3,800 were normal weight and about

> > 200 were underweight, according to the Thomson

> > Medstat.

> >

> > Those demographics are generally consistent with the

> > federal health survey that actually measures and

> > weighs people, said Schutt, the company's associate

> > medical director.

> >

> > It was surprising how some responses from obese and

> > overweight people paralleled those of thinner

> > respondents.

> >

> > For example, about 19 percent of obese people said

> > they always read nutritional labels on food packages,

> > compared with 24 percent of normal-weight people. And

> > about 29 percent of obese people said they eat out at

> > restaurants three or more times a week, compared with

> > 25 percent of normal-weight people.

> >

> > " The numbers aren't wildly different, " Schutt said.

> >

> > One of the largest differences was the answer to the

> > question: How often do you eat all of the food you are

> > served at restaurants? About 41 percent of obese

> > people said they always did, while 31 percent of

> > normal weight people always did.

> >

> > Thomson Medstat is a data collection and analysis

> > company that contracts with the federal government and

> > about 20 states, on health projects. The data about

> > eating and exercise are part of a larger package of

> > survey information being marketed to employers,

> > hospitals and other customers. It is not being

> > published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

> >

> > The survey had a sampling margin of error of plus or

> > minus 1 percentage point, according to the company.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights

> > reserved. The information contained in the AP News

> > report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or

> > redistributed without the prior written authority of

> > The Associated Press.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

At 01:58 PM 8/2/2006, you wrote:

>Hi folks:

>

>Pizza tastes better than kale. And people, very simply, are

>determined not to change.

>

>This reminds me of conversations I have had with my GP. She has told

>me more than once that: " You cannot get anyone to change anything

>about their lifestyle, in order to improve their health " .

>

>When I replied: " Well, if I see some persuasive information today,

>it is very likely I will change my behaviour tomorrow. " Her reply

>was, with a smile: " Well then, you are abnormal! "

>

>It is obvious that the majority of people simply DO NOT CARE.

I think that they do often theoretically care but that they provide, often

without thought, higher priorities to pleasing their habituated desires,

eating for " comfort, " avoiding discomfort, and conforming to the ways of

their culture (and families).

>This

>is something I just do not comprehend. And so long as not caring

>does not affect others for whom they are responsible, then I suppose

>it is their right. But they do expect everyone else, one way or

>another, to pay for their extra, avoidable, medical expenses.

Irritating, that, indeed.

Maco

[Guest guest]

Sorry to pick, Rodney,

but Kale is not edible, IMO. What's wrong with turnip greens, mustard greens? Fortunately, we don't have kale here.

Tell me to eat kale - you lose me. Just like those deaf ears wrt smoking, drinking, salt, french fries, you name it. People have preferences. And what we might think are the best preferences cannot be substantiated, at least in the general case.

Secondly, people have druthers for a variety of reasons. Lotsa things I don't NEED to do. For me, it's a lot simpler to eat less calories and let me pick what I want. I'm not gonna rule out foods just because some ? (quack) says don't eat it. People have been making those statements my whole life and they end up changing the next year.

If I ruled out everything they say, there'd be very little to eat, perhaps only kale!!

Then there's the division amongst "experts" whether a high fat or high carbo diet is best. Shouldn't we know by now?

For CR, I think we should have settled what set point is, what %CR is, what BMI we need for each class of person. Guys who successfully got to 18 don't impress me.

Don't you think it's funny they run thousands of rat tests with a Purina style rat chow, and they want me to eat Kale? My doc tells me to eat kale and I'll tell him to eat something else.

With a lot of people it's easier to agree with the doc then do what they want. There's a lot of negativism about living longer. They don't see it as a goal. They know they'll have pills.

What they want is a morning after pill for obesity. So make one.

And I doubt the aggregate cost of health care will decrease as I live longer.I think if I live too long they'll start taxing that. (5$ for bedpan, 2$ for diapers)

Regards.

[ ] Re: You Cant Fix What You Deny

Hi folks:Pizza tastes better than kale. And people, very simply, are determined not to change. This reminds me of conversations I have had with my GP. She has told me more than once that: "You cannot get anyone to change anything about their lifestyle, in order to improve their health".When I replied: "Well, if I see some persuasive information today, it is very likely I will change my behaviour tomorrow." Her reply was, with a smile: "Well then, you are abnormal!"It is obvious that the majority of people simply DO NOT CARE. This is something I just do not comprehend. And so long as not caring does not affect others for whom they are responsible, then I suppose it is their right. But they do expect everyone else, one way or another, to pay for their extra, avoidable, medical expenses. There were some data posted here a year or so ago which showed that in general the longer you live the less your aggregate lifetime medical expenses. Rodney.

..

[Guest guest]

I am trying to understand what in this survey - not study - justifies the

conclusion that the people are in denial?

Doctor Kaplan points out, relevant information that would allow us to form a

logical conclusion about whether the people were truthful or not - was not

collected. This, and several other things, cause me to conclude that this

survey is badly designed.

I suspect that obese American people have failed to adapt to the adulterated

food supplied by the American food industry, and a culture that is

increasingly sedentary, and not that they are somehow less truthful,

observant, or cognizant, than American people who are able to maintain their

weight in our environment. I watch young girls STRUGGLE to be trim and

athletic, watching everything that goes into their mouths, and working their

butts off in sports. We now have studies that indicate that prenatal

exposure to certain conditions, may create a heritable genetic tendency

toward obesity.

I am wondering who is really in denial. I think it is time to quit thinking

this is a matter of personal weakness, and start thinking of American

obesity as an evironmental disease.

My European friends say that once they start eating American food, they

start gaining weight. They work very hard to reverse this trend by cooking

for themselves, removing themselves from the effect of the food industry

adulterations. I struggle to keep high fructose corn syrup and grain

products out of my diet. It is nearly impossible. Like I said, the

evidence suggests environmental effects, not lapses in personal judgment or

character.

And by the way, Rodney, I have worked all over the world and have never seen

bigger portions or bigger eaters, than I have sat next to in Canada.

Nonetheless, these people were mostly beautifully trim. What gives?

And I for one, see people diligently change their lives everyday and

Rodney's doctor needs to refer patients to competent coaches. But then,

doctors are in the business of disease, not wellness.

Sincerely,

Kayce

_________________________________________________________________

Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!

http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Kayce,

I think that you have hit the nail on the head:

> My European friends say that once they start eating

> American food, they start gaining weight. They work

> very hard to reverse this trend by cooking

> for themselves, removing themselves from the effect of

> the food industry adulterations.

I started losing weight when I stopped eating any foods that had

hydrogenated fats and high fructose corn syrup. Of course, that

eliminates most commercial pastries, fried foods, sodas, and desserts

which would tend to make you fat anyway.

Tony

[Guest guest]

No disagreement.

I think it may be the dr's are trained to treat disease, not

prevent it, and they don't yet see obesity as a disease.

Dr Kempner thought so in 1975 after years of treating obese

patients for disease.

You can now read some of Kempner's articles in PMC

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search & DB=

pmc

but those on the rice diet and obesity are not listed.

The 1975 article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=

Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=1200726 & query_hl=2 & itoo

l=pubmed_docsum

The abstract does not do the article justice. In there he

alludes to obesity being the problem with disease.

I'm happy to see that Medline now shows some of his

pre-Medline articles, but no abstracts for the diet stuff

yet.

So much of this stuff we've known about since before I was

born yet the knowledge of WHY adipose grows is new. Thasa a

long time.

Something in our food contributes to adipose growth. In a

PBS special " The West " it talks about the priest who went to

early California, writing about " converted " Indians: " They

get fat on our food and die. "

May be the wheat, oats?

Regards.

RE: [ ] Re: You Cant Fix What You Deny

> I am trying to understand what in this survey - not

study - justifies the

> conclusion that the people are in denial?

>

> Doctor Kaplan points out, relevant information that would

allow us to form a

> logical conclusion about whether the people were truthful

or not - was not

> collected. This, and several other things, cause me to

conclude that this

> survey is badly designed.

>

> I suspect that obese American people have failed to adapt

to the adulterated

> food supplied by the American food industry, and a culture

that is

> increasingly sedentary, and not that they are somehow less

truthful,

> observant, or cognizant, than American people who are able

to maintain their

> weight in our environment. I watch young girls STRUGGLE

to be trim and

> athletic, watching everything that goes into their mouths,

and working their

> butts off in sports. We now have studies that indicate

that prenatal

> exposure to certain conditions, may create a heritable

genetic tendency

> toward obesity.

>

> I am wondering who is really in denial. I think it is

time to quit thinking

> this is a matter of personal weakness, and start thinking

of American

> obesity as an evironmental disease.

>

> My European friends say that once they start eating

American food, they

> start gaining weight. They work very hard to reverse this

trend by cooking

> for themselves, removing themselves from the effect of the

food industry

> adulterations. I struggle to keep high fructose corn syrup

and grain

> products out of my diet. It is nearly impossible. Like I

said, the

> evidence suggests environmental effects, not lapses in

personal judgment or

> character.

>

> And by the way, Rodney, I have worked all over the world

and have never seen

> bigger portions or bigger eaters, than I have sat next to

in Canada.

> Nonetheless, these people were mostly beautifully trim.

What gives?

>

> And I for one, see people diligently change their lives

everyday and

> Rodney's doctor needs to refer patients to competent

coaches. But then,

> doctors are in the business of disease, not wellness.

>

> Sincerely,

> Kayce

[Guest guest]

Rodney wrote:

>

>

> Hi folks:

>

>

>

> It is obvious that the majority of people simply DO NOT CARE. This

> is something I just do not comprehend. And so long as not caring

> does not affect others for whom they are responsible, then I suppose

> it is their right. But they do expect everyone else, one way or

> another, to pay for their extra, avoidable, medical expenses.

>

>

> Rodney.

===========

People do care as evidenced by the food industry jumping through hoops

to make their offering " appear " healthier than the next, despite the

differences being cosmetic or unsubstantial.

The problem in my opinion is that individuals only have so much mental

energy or attention span to spend on a daily basis. If that attention is

consumed by marital/family, job/work, or non health personal issues,

there isn't enough energy left to muster the discipline to not cave in

to food cravings and make time to exercise.

I can only speak for myself, and this certainly gets easier after we

manage it into a habit, but I was formerly obese and If I don't continue

the effort, I'd be obese again.

I wish it was as simple as just exposing the population to the very

obvious truth (they are eating themselves into poor health and premature

death), but we are not driven by cold hard logic. We are barely a step

out of the cave we evolved in (just look at the world situation for

further proof).

We can really only help those who have committed to the effort it takes

to manage deep seated instinctive drives. It's easy to blame the food

industry, but their job is to make food we want to eat and they are too

good at that task for most to resist. I try to set a good example for

others I interact with and while I don't keep my health bias a secret I

don't proselytize. I wait until someone is interested and asks for

advice. Then I will talk their ears off... It doesn't happen often

enough but it is rewarding when it does.

Be well

JR

[Guest guest]

At 06:06 PM 8/2/2006, you wrote:

Sorry to pick, Rodney,

but Kale is not edible, IMO. What's wrong with turnip greens, mustard

greens? Fortunately, we don't have kale here.

Tell me to eat kale - you lose me.

Kale with

sesame seeds and ume plum vinegar... Yum!

[Guest guest]

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@...>

wrote:

>

> No disagreement.

> I think it may be the dr's are trained to treat disease, not

> prevent it, and they don't yet see obesity as a disease.

> Dr Kempner thought so in 1975 after years of treating obese

> patients for disease.

> You can now read some of Kempner's articles in PMC

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search & DB=

> pmc

> but those on the rice diet and obesity are not listed.

>

> The 1975 article:

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=

> Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=1200726 & query_hl=2 & itoo

> l=pubmed_docsum

> The abstract does not do the article justice. In there he

> alludes to obesity being the problem with disease.

> I'm happy to see that Medline now shows some of his

> pre-Medline articles, but no abstracts for the diet stuff

> yet.

>

Hi JW

I'm having problems pulling up the study: I keep on getting a screen

asking me for the specific title a/o author, and outside of knowing

his first name as Walter, I seem to get every Kempner who has ever

written a study.

I know know if you Google his name you can find the original early

1950s study pointing out the volume capacity HTN study on sodium in

the diet, but could you point out specifically what they have at the

site, or what I am doing wrong to view the studies?

Thanks!

Diane

[Guest guest]

This is an important observation: I think many of us, without wild

conspiracy theories, can look at the 1000-kcal/day/person extra production

by the " food " industry and look at the hard-core advertising blitz that

Americans are subjected to from birth through every available media and

thus discern that we're all being sold, literally, a bill of goods.

Nonetheless--as Mulder said, the truth _is_ out there, and the simple,

existential truth is that every person is in fact responsible for opening

her or his own mouth and putting or not putting stuff in there.

Period.

The contemporary temptation for everyone to be a victim (or to view

" everyone else " as likely victims) is inherently patronizing and also

disempowering, and however attractive such a perspective might be

emotionally either from compassion for oneself or compassion for others, at

bottom, it ain't true neither.

Maco

At 07:35 PM 8/2/2006, you wrote:

>I am trying to understand what in this survey - not study - justifies the

>conclusion that the people are in denial?

>

>Doctor Kaplan points out, relevant information that would allow us to form a

>logical conclusion about whether the people were truthful or not - was not

>collected. This, and several other things, cause me to conclude that this

>survey is badly designed.

>

>I suspect that obese American people have failed to adapt to the adulterated

>food supplied by the American food industry, and a culture that is

>increasingly sedentary, and not that they are somehow less truthful,

>observant, or cognizant, than American people who are able to maintain their

>weight in our environment. I watch young girls STRUGGLE to be trim and

>athletic, watching everything that goes into their mouths, and working their

>butts off in sports. We now have studies that indicate that prenatal

>exposure to certain conditions, may create a heritable genetic tendency

>toward obesity.

>

>I am wondering who is really in denial. I think it is time to quit thinking

>this is a matter of personal weakness, and start thinking of American

>obesity as an evironmental disease.

>

>My European friends say that once they start eating American food, they

>start gaining weight. They work very hard to reverse this trend by cooking

>for themselves, removing themselves from the effect of the food industry

>adulterations. I struggle to keep high fructose corn syrup and grain

>products out of my diet. It is nearly impossible. Like I said, the

>evidence suggests environmental effects, not lapses in personal judgment or

>character.

>

>And by the way, Rodney, I have worked all over the world and have never seen

>bigger portions or bigger eaters, than I have sat next to in Canada.

>Nonetheless, these people were mostly beautifully trim. What gives?

>

>And I for one, see people diligently change their lives everyday and

>Rodney's doctor needs to refer patients to competent coaches. But then,

>doctors are in the business of disease, not wellness.

>

>Sincerely,

>Kayce

>

>_________________________________________________________________

>Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!

>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In pubmed there's PMC,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pmc

enter Kempner w

which displays:

1:

Effect of CO2 on the Growth Rate of the Pneumococcus.

Kempner W, Schlayer C.J Bacteriol. 1942 Mar; 43(3): 387-396.PMCID: 373611

| Summary | Page Browse | PDF-0.8M |

Links

2:

THE METABOLISM OF HUMAN ERYTHROBLASTS.

Kempner W.J Clin Invest. 1936 Nov; 15(6): 679-683.PMCID: 424830

| Summary | Page Browse | PDF-0.7M |

Links

3:

THE NATURE OF LEUKEMIC BLOOD CELLS AS DETERMINED BY THEIR METABOLISM.

Kempner W.J Clin Invest. 1939 May; 18(3): 291-300.PMCID: 434877

| Summary | Page Browse | PDF-1.5M |

Links

4:

CHEMICAL NATURE OF THE OXYGEN-TRANSFERRING FERMENT OF RESPIRATION IN PLANTS.

Kempner W.Plant Physiol. 1936 Jul; 11(3): 605-613.PMCID: 439237

| Summary | Page Browse | PDF-0.8M |

in pubmed

I get 14. The "main" one:

:

Kempner W, Newborg BC, Peschel RL, Skyler JS.

Treatment of massive obesity with rice/reduction diet program. An analysis of 106 patients with at least a 45-kg weight loss.Arch Intern Med. 1975 Dec;135(12):1575-84. PMID: 1200726

If you get the full text(in the library), you will find a lot of refs by Kempner that aren't listed here.

Lotsa interesting stuff but mostly pointing out anything he treated was with a rice diet, very low calories, BTW. Still done today - ricediet.com.

My impression is don't try it at home.

BTW, there are other things in pubmed like try searching Books. click search and slide down to books. enter taurine, eg.

great stuff: 5 items in Basic Neurochemistry

: r-mediated transport enables molecules with low lipid solubility to traverse the blood brain barrier

Regards.

[ ] Re: You Cant Fix What You Deny

>> No disagreement.> I think it may be the dr's are trained to treat disease, not> prevent it, and they don't yet see obesity as a disease.> Dr Kempner thought so in 1975 after years of treating obese> patients for disease.> You can now read some of Kempner's articles in PMC> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search & DB=> pmc> but those on the rice diet and obesity are not listed.> > The 1975 article:> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=> Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=1200726 & query_hl=2 & itoo> l=pubmed_docsum> The abstract does not do the article justice. In there he> alludes to obesity being the problem with disease.> I'm happy to see that Medline now shows some of his> pre-Medline articles, but no abstracts for the diet stuff> yet.> Hi JWI'm having problems pulling up the study: I keep on getting a screen asking me for the specific title a/o author, and outside of knowing his first name as Walter, I seem to get every Kempner who has ever written a study.I know know if you Google his name you can find the original early 1950s study pointing out the volume capacity HTN study on sodium in the diet, but could you point out specifically what they have at the site, or what I am doing wrong to view the studies?Thanks!Diane

[Guest guest]

The magazine Golf Digest did a survey and found about

2/3s of goflers were overweight or obese. In reading

the survey I found something similar to this other

study

Look at the difference in response between when

" asked " about their weight and when plotted on a BMI

Scale..

46% said they were at a healthy weight but only 34%

were when plotted

51% said they were overweight but 53% were when

plotted

3% said they were obese but 13% were when plotted.

Clearly there is a problem in self perception between

the " ends " of the scale.

http://www.golfdigest.com/pdf/2006healthstudy_public.pdf

[Guest guest]

I see this everywhere. My husband (BMI = 27.5, which is halfway

between overweight and obese) views himself as normal healthy weight.

He thinks the BMI charts are wrong. A few men at work who have BMIs

in the normal range believe they are underweight and those with BMIs

in the overweight range believe they are normal weight. They appear

to suffer from the " Arnold Schwarzenegger Syndrome " -- i.e. " the BMI

charts don't take into account large amounts of muscle mass " . Of

course none of them are weight lifters, including Arnie, anymore.

Diane

>

> The magazine Golf Digest did a survey and found about

> 2/3s of goflers were overweight or obese. In reading

> the survey I found something similar to this other

> study

>

> Look at the difference in response between when

> " asked " about their weight and when plotted on a BMI

> Scale..

>

> 46% said they were at a healthy weight but only 34%

> were when plotted

>

>

> 51% said they were overweight but 53% were when

> plotted

>

> 3% said they were obese but 13% were when plotted.

>

> Clearly there is a problem in self perception between

> the " ends " of the scale.

>

> http://www.golfdigest.com/pdf/2006healthstudy_public.pdf

>

[Guest guest]

I can empathise. I'm a BMI of 27. Despite my best efforts, I've

only managed to maintain this weight. I'm intent on losing 20 lbs

(of fat, of course) for lots of reasons including egotistical. I'm

ecoubling my efforts to eat less, exercise more.

But BMI seems very arbitrary, and as your husband notes, not

necessarily very accurate. It's highly precise, however, (I mean the

technical definition of precise). This is probably why it's so

favored by the medical commuity.

It's hard for me imagine that morbidity is vastly greater at a BMI

of 27.5 vs 25, say. Not to mention longevity.

Another point I've never understood, re your mention of

Schwarzenneger, is how unhealthy excess muscle tissue might be.

Maybe he is just as bad off as being obese (in common parlance).

Anybody have the quintessential BMI summary at her/his fingertips to

save me a search? Sorry to be so lazy.

Mike

>

> I see this everywhere. My husband (BMI = 27.5, which is halfway

> between overweight and obese) views himself as normal healthy

weight.

> He thinks the BMI charts are wrong. A few men at work who have

BMIs

> in the normal range believe they are underweight and those with

BMIs

> in the overweight range believe they are normal weight. They

appear

> to suffer from the " Arnold Schwarzenegger Syndrome " -- i.e. " the BMI

> charts don't take into account large amounts of muscle mass " . Of

> course none of them are weight lifters, including Arnie, anymore.

>

> Diane

>

>

> --- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@>

wrote:

> >

> > The magazine Golf Digest did a survey and found about

> > 2/3s of goflers were overweight or obese. In reading

> > the survey I found something similar to this other

> > study

> >

> > Look at the difference in response between when

> > " asked " about their weight and when plotted on a BMI

> > Scale..

> >

> > 46% said they were at a healthy weight but only 34%

> > were when plotted

> >

> >

> > 51% said they were overweight but 53% were when

> > plotted

> >

> > 3% said they were obese but 13% were when plotted.

> >

> > Clearly there is a problem in self perception between

> > the " ends " of the scale.

> >

> > http://www.golfdigest.com/pdf/2006healthstudy_public.pdf

> >

>

[Guest guest]

FWIW:

Noble: Textbook of Primary Care Medicine, 3rd ed.,

Assessing the Patient's Readiness to Lose Weight

The physician should assess the patient's readiness to lose weight before

attempting to treat obesity, because an unwilling patient rarely if ever succeeds,

which frustrates both the patient and the practitioner. If the patient does not wish

to lose and is not at high risk, weight maintenance should be encouraged.

If the patient is at high risk, the clinician should make an effort to motivate the

patient by discussing the medical consequences related to the patient's case.

492

TABLE 58-3 -- Guide to Selecting Treatment

BMI category

<24.9

25-26.9

27-29.9

30-35

35-39.9

>40

Treatment

Diet, exercise, behavior therapy

-

With comorbidities

With comorbidities

+

+

+

Pharmacotherapy

-

-

With comorbidities

+

+

+

Surgery

-

-

-

-

With comorbidities

+

From Practical guide to the identification, evaluation, and treatment of overweight and obesity in adults (preprint), Bethesda, Md, September, 1998, National Institutes of Health and the North American Association for the Study of Obesity.

Regards.

[ ] Re: You Cant Fix What You Deny

I see this everywhere. My husband (BMI = 27.5, which is halfwaybetween overweight and obese) views himself as normal healthy weight.He thinks the BMI charts are wrong. A few men at work who have BMIsin the normal range believe they are underweight and those with BMIsin the overweight range believe they are normal weight. They appearto suffer from the "Arnold Schwarzenegger Syndrome"-- i.e. "the BMIcharts don't take into account large amounts of muscle mass". Ofcourse none of them are weight lifters, including Arnie, anymore.Diane>> The magazine Golf Digest did a survey and found about> 2/3s of goflers were overweight or obese. In reading> the survey I found something similar to this other> study> > Look at the difference in response between when> "asked" about their weight and when plotted on a BMI> Scale..> > 46% said they were at a healthy weight but only 34%> were when plotted> > > 51% said they were overweight but 53% were when> plotted> > 3% said they were obese but 13% were when plotted.> > Clearly there is a problem in self perception between> the "ends" of the scale. > > http://www.golfdigest.com/pdf/2006healthstudy_public.pdf>

[Guest guest]

At 09:37 AM 8/4/2006, you wrote:

>I see this everywhere. My husband (BMI = 27.5, which is halfway

>between overweight and obese) views himself as normal healthy weight.

>He thinks the BMI charts are wrong. A few men at work who have BMIs

>in the normal range believe they are underweight and those with BMIs

>in the overweight range believe they are normal weight. They appear

>to suffer from the " Arnold Schwarzenegger Syndrome " -- i.e. " the BMI

>charts don't take into account large amounts of muscle mass " . Of

>course none of them are weight lifters, including Arnie, anymore.

It's true, of course, that by virtue of the mathematics of the formula, a

taller skinny guy (or woman) will have a higher BMI than a short pudgy guy

(or woman), so if they're all basketball players, there might be something

to their contentions, but certainly, for anybody, under 25 ain't

unattainable, CR aside.

Maco

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Another point I've never understood, re your mention of

> Schwarzenneger, is how unhealthy excess muscle tissue might be.

> Maybe he is just as bad off as being obese (in common parlance).

>

> Anybody have the quintessential BMI summary at her/his fingertips to

> save me a search? Sorry to be so lazy.

>

> Mike

In terms of health, I think that additional muscle is less

dangerous than excess fat. Excess fat is usually carried around the

midsection, particularly with overweight men but some women as well.

This is associated with heart and other health problems. For

women, fat tissue stores estrogen, which is correlated with increased

incidence of breast cancer and other hormonally-sensitive cancers.

Thus the less fat you carry, the better, up to a point of course.

In terms of CR, I would expect additional muscle mass is probably

undesirable as well. Aren't the long-lived mice undersized?

Diane

[Guest guest]

This observation explains to me why women, who are on average shorter

and smaller boned, look " normal " on the lower end of the BMI range,

while men on the higher end of the BMI range look " normal " .

Diane

> It's true, of course, that by virtue of the mathematics of the

formula, a

> taller skinny guy (or woman) will have a higher BMI than a short

pudgy guy

> (or woman), so if they're all basketball players, there might be

something

> to their contentions, but certainly, for anybody, under 25 ain't

> unattainable, CR aside.

>

> Maco

>

[Guest guest]

mikesheldrick wrote:

>

>

> I can empathise. I'm a BMI of 27. Despite my best efforts, I've

> only managed to maintain this weight. I'm intent on losing 20 lbs

> (of fat, of course) for lots of reasons including egotistical. I'm

> ecoubling my efforts to eat less, exercise more.

>

> But BMI seems very arbitrary, and as your husband notes, not

> necessarily very accurate. It's highly precise, however, (I mean the

> technical definition of precise). This is probably why it's so

> favored by the medical commuity.

>

> It's hard for me imagine that morbidity is vastly greater at a BMI

> of 27.5 vs 25, say. Not to mention longevity.

>

> Another point I've never understood, re your mention of

> Schwarzenneger, is how unhealthy excess muscle tissue might be.

> Maybe he is just as bad off as being obese (in common parlance).

>

> Anybody have the quintessential BMI summary at her/his fingertips to

> save me a search? Sorry to be so lazy.

>

> Mike

>

BMI is an IMO flawed benchmark of general value mainly in larger

population studies due to ease of calculation. Personally I would

suggest a focus on quality of food consumed and suggest moderation wrt

severe weight loss targets.

Extra muscle is clearly less dangerous than extra adipose but in the

extreme, extra muscle may be burning the candle brighter than we need. I

prefer a bias towards slender with some extra muscle... As we get older

its harder to build muscle so don't diet away too much. If I ever figure

out how to strike that ideal balance I'll gladly share :-). Right now at

5'10 " and less than 160# I'm far from CR skinny but I get pushed around

on the basketball court like a toothpick compared to before I lost

weight (and yes I lift 3x a week).

It's all relative I guess, and I'm more than happy to give up the minor

benefit more body mass would bring during sport for the 24x7 health

benefit of a slender bias. Note: I was as light as 145-150# 2 years ago

but didn't like what I saw in the mirror. This is a personal journey so

you must choose that path that satisfies your requirements.

JR

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayce:

Well it is clear to me that you and I reside in different galaxies.

Either that or parallel universes : ^ )))

I will be more than happy to be persuaded to your point of view about

the origins of obesity, but only when I see persuasive evidence to

support it. (I list a few examples later, of the kind of evidence I

would need to see.)

I *have* seen studies posted here which indicate that the metabolic

rates of obese people are not lower than the average. Indeed, they

are usually found to be higher, no doubt because they have greater

LBM, in addition to higher fat reserves. I have also very recently

seen reference (in the latest issue of the Preventdisease.com email

newsletter) to a study which showed that when obese individuals,

unable to lose weight and claiming to be eating a low calorie diet,

have their BMR measured, it is clear that they are burning off far

more calories than they claim to be eating. Something doesn't

compute. Right? We all know what, I think.

In addition a study was posted here showing that when overweight

people are escorted throughout the day, and their food intake

recorded and reviewed at the end of the study period, it is found

that the records the subjects themselves kept, had under-recorded

what they had actually eaten by a substantial margin - I recall 40%

was the number. It will be found in the archives. I believe it was

posted by Jeff Novick, quite some time back.

These suggest denial to me.

-----------------------------------------------

We are all aware of the laws of thermodynamics. We all presumably

understand that a reduction in caloric intake below caloric

expenditure must reduce body weight - no exceptions. I have checked

data posted here by Dennis de Jarnette as he lost weight starting

from a BMI of ~35 and had his BF% accurately measured. I have also

checked my own case, losing weight at BMIs in the 21 to 25 range (but

for me using the, not totally accurate, US Navy BF% calculation

method). In each case the weight lost has been composed of 60% to

70% fat, and 30% to 40% LBM. Granted, this is a very limited data

set, but I have seen nothing elsewhere of an empirical nature that

suggests anything other than that if obese people ate a lot less than

they do, they would eventually return to a healthy weight. If there

are studies showing data different from the above they ought to be

posted.

It is also worth noting that while about half the obese community and

their advocates like to assert that it is next to impossible to lose

weight ( " so don't bother even trying " ?) the other half have a quite

different, and entirely contradictory, complaint.

The complaint of this other group is NOT that they cannot lose

weight. Their complaint is that after losing a considerable amount

of weight through restriction of food intake, and having achieved

some targeted lower weight, they quickly return to their original

weight, or higher, after resuming their old eating habits.

Is this not a clear acknowledgment that obese people can and do lose

sizeable amounts of weight if/when they reduce food intake? Rather,

the issue appears to be that they are unable to maintain a reduced

caloric intake once their target has been reached. So I submit there

is no serious dispute, even among the obese, that restriction of

calories is all that is required to achieve an appropriate weight.

-------------------------------------------

However, the above said, I would take a very keen interest, and am

certainly open-minded to changing my view, if someone can post

studies which demonstrate any of the following:

A) That thirty or more obese people, when put on a carefully

controlled, RDA-adequate, 1200 calorie, metabolic ward, study failed

to lose weight, or

That thirty or more obese people, when they put on a metabolic

ward study with 1200 RDA-adequate calories, lost only LBM, while

fully retaining, or increasing, their previous body fat reserves, or

C) Thirty or more obese people, while consuming a carefully measured

1200 calories, and burning off a carefully measured 1200 calories

daily, showed a sustained increase in weight.

These are the types of study that seem to me are required to

substantiate the kinds of arguments you and others put forward. Can

you post any such studies? Or other (very carefully measured)

studies which suggest conclusions similar to those above? If you

were to do this I would take a serious look at them. But do not

bother to post them if the measure used for caloric intake is what

the subjects SAY they are eating. Or if the quantity of exercise

assumed is the amount they CLAIM to be doing.

------------------------------------------

My beliefs about the reason for the emergence of an obesity epidemic

in western countries starting approximately in the 1960s, is too long

and, not the least, too controversial, to go into it here. But it

has nothing to do with supposed violations of the Laws of

Thermodynamics (in all the various disguises these arguments are

presented), and it has everything to do with the reasons for the

failure to restrict food intake.

------------------------------------------

We are all familiar with the list of excuses: " it isn't you, it is

your genes " ; or " it isn't you, its something your mother ate during

pregnancy " ; or " it isn't you, its high fructose corn syrup " (while

many of the same people who think fructose is the near lethal also

think fruit, which contains plenty of it, is just wonderful); or " it

isn't you, it is the junk food corporations who are forcing you to

eat their products " [no doubt plenty more excuses can be added to

this list]. Then, of course, there are the people who will advise

the obese that: " it is impossible to lose weight so do not even

bother trying. "

But perhaps most important point here may be the destructive effect

that the promotion of these excuses, and the giving of that kind of

advice, has on the very people who most need to restrict their food

intake. They are a powerful demotivator that will only serve to

distract them from getting around to doing what they urgently need to

do to protect their health. Not helpful, imo.

Rodney.

PS: I was interested to hear your anecdote about canadians eating

huge meals and staying slim. I doubt you will find anyone resident

in Canada agreeing with your sentiments. I have lived in Canada for

a very long time and almost every day I encounter people who look to

be a mile wide. I very much doubt the average circumference in

Canada is materially different from that in the United States. Next

time you are in Canada try going to the food court in any canadian

shopping mall, or to a Harvey's hamburger chain outlet - or

Mc's or Burger King. You will see plenty of obese people these

places. And almost always, if you take the trouble to observe, you

will find a direct correlation between the size of the individual and

the amount of food they order. By one route of logic one might have

hoped it would be the other way around. By another, of course, it

makes perfect sense. I have often thought of saying to some of these

people: " Look, you really don't need to eat for an entire month do

you? So what are you doing in here? " So far I have been able to

restrain myself.

And as for your point about: " Rodney's doctor needs to refer

patients to competent coaches " .............. what, please, does

this tell you about these people? ....... that, you seem to be

saying, they cannot simply take and act on their doctor's

straightforward advice about how to fix an obviously serious health

problem? You are telling us that they need to be *coached* about how

to follow simple advice?

As I said, we must be from different galaxies.

Rodney.

--- In , " kayce cover " <k_cover@...>

wrote:

>

> I am trying to understand what in this survey - not study -

justifies the

> conclusion that the people are in denial?

>

> Doctor Kaplan points out, relevant information that would allow us

to form a

> logical conclusion about whether the people were truthful or not -

was not

> collected. This, and several other things, cause me to conclude

that this

> survey is badly designed.

>

> I suspect that obese American people have failed to adapt to the

adulterated

> food supplied by the American food industry, and a culture that is

> increasingly sedentary, and not that they are somehow less

truthful,

> observant, or cognizant, than American people who are able to

maintain their

> weight in our environment. I watch young girls STRUGGLE to be trim

and

> athletic, watching everything that goes into their mouths, and

working their

> butts off in sports. We now have studies that indicate that

prenatal

> exposure to certain conditions, may create a heritable genetic

tendency

> toward obesity.

>

> I am wondering who is really in denial. I think it is time to quit

thinking

> this is a matter of personal weakness, and start thinking of

American

> obesity as an evironmental disease.

>

> My European friends say that once they start eating American food,

they

> start gaining weight. They work very hard to reverse this trend by

cooking

> for themselves, removing themselves from the effect of the food

industry

> adulterations. I struggle to keep high fructose corn syrup and

grain

> products out of my diet. It is nearly impossible. Like I said,

the

> evidence suggests environmental effects, not lapses in personal

judgment or

> character.

>

> And by the way, Rodney, I have worked all over the world and have

never seen

> bigger portions or bigger eaters, than I have sat next to in

Canada.

> Nonetheless, these people were mostly beautifully trim. What gives?

>

> And I for one, see people diligently change their lives everyday

and

> Rodney's doctor needs to refer patients to competent coaches. But

then,

> doctors are in the business of disease, not wellness.

>

> Sincerely,

> Kayce

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!

> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

>

[Guest guest]

Or while waiting to check out of the market, take an eyeball survey of the shopping carts of people waiting in line . More often than not, there will be a correlation between what overweight or obese people are buying and their size.

on 8/6/2006 5:58 PM, Rodney at perspect1111@... wrote:

Next

time you are in Canada try going to the food court in any canadian

shopping mall, or to a Harvey's hamburger chain outlet - or

Mc's or Burger King. You will see plenty of obese people these

places. And almost always, if you take the trouble to observe, you

will find a direct correlation between the size of the individual and

the amount of food they order.

[Guest guest]

One thing that seems to fool people is caloric

density...

It seems to me that many people who are overweight

and/or obese who say they don't eat " a lot " of food,

may not eat a lot of food in regard to food volume or

food weight... but the food they eat is extremely

calorically dense. So, they often think they are not

eating much (which in some regard is correct) but they

are eating large amounts of calories..

the reverse is true also..

I use the " Shock and Awe " theory for my salads...

they have to be big enough to create " shock and awe "

in those who see them.....

of course, while huge in volume, they are low in

caloric density and total calories...

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Please read this again and try to understand the obese are suffering a problem in hormone balance. They don't suffer from denial. http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/116/7/1784?maxtoshow= & HITS=10 & hits=10 & RESULTFORMAT= & fulltext=adiponectin & andorexactfulltext=and & searchid=1 & FIRSTINDEX=0 & sortspec=relevance & resourcetype=HWCITAdiponectin and adiponectin receptors in insulin resistance, diabetes, and the metabolic syndrome

Regards.