Going out on a limb here........

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am of two minds on this. While I am sure that Dr. Koren has many fine qualities and has obviously inspired a lot of docs to a more successful practice, I have to admit that I wince a bit whenever I see his advertising. Issues like vaccination are very complicated and I think that his analyses as well as the highly selected publications and researchers that he relies upon are so one-sided that they don't allow for a prudent determination of the merits of his arguments. I think that when "science" is used as a marketing tool that liberties tend to be taken, and that has happened with Dr. Koren's material, in my opinion.

On the other hand, a really inspirational speaker can do a lot to get folks fired up, and chiropractors can really get fired up. I have never heard Dr. Koren speak and have only seen some of his materials, so I admit that I may be leaping to an unfair conclusion.

Are you familiar with Dr. Koren's lectures, and what do you think of them?

D Freeman Mailing address: 1165 Union Street NE, Suite 300Salem, Oregon 97301ph 503 586-0127 fax 503 763-3581cell 503 871-0715 drmfreeman@...

-----Original Message-----From: Bingham [mailto:bingonis@...]Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 10:06 PM SnellCc: Subject: Going out on a limb here........Listserve, Would anyone be interested in hearing Ted Koren speak ?? I just got an email from him and he said that he would be happy to come to Portland if we could get a group of docs together. Let us keep the responses clean, and I am sure that you would be able to pass up this one . Bingham Namaste Chiropractic On Jan 19, 2004, at 10:01 AM, Snell wrote:

Hey folks,Anyone have a printable Spanish version of the ROQ they'd be willing to share? Thanks in advance. W. Snell, D.C.127-G NE 102nd AvenuePortland, OR 97220Ph. 503-253-0827Fax 503-253-4760_________________________________________________________________Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

,

Just to address one aspect of your discussion:

SSRI's have been miracle drugs for people with low grade depression. The side effects are minimal compared to tricyclics and other meds. The fact that docs have acted like they were in a prescribing contest to get them to everyone on the planet does not discount the situations where they are merited (is merited a verb?).

I agree though. Koren is a wild and a-crazy guy which provides ammo for our critics but much needed passion for us field docs.

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

Please note " New address " 315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

drscott@...

or

info@...

[Guest guest]

,

It is interesting that you wrote, "The fact that docs have acted like they were in a prescribing contest to get them to everyone on the planet does not discount the situations where they are merited." Articles have detailed the rewards prescribers merit when they prescribe a certain pharmaceutical. Receiving tips, new golf clubs, etc. are all condoned by the AMA as ethical practices. Funny, I would have suspected the awards would have blurred the situations where the med is merited. I suspect the pharmaceutical companies had the same suspicion. My point is that it is no longer a black and white decision of what is best for the patient.

DeSiena

----- Forwarded Message -----

From: "Dr. " <drscott@...>

<adesiena@...>, < >

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:59:13 -0800

Subject: Re: Going out on a limb here........

Message-ID: <BC32AC70.2A0B%drscott@...>

,Just to address one aspect of your discussion:SSRI's have been miracle drugs for people with low grade depression. The side effects are minimal compared to tricyclics and other meds. The fact that docs have acted like they were in a prescribing contest to get them to everyone on the planet does not discount the situations where they are merited (is merited a verb?).I agree though. Koren is a wild and a-crazy guy which provides ammo for our critics but much needed passion for us field docs. E. Abrahamson, D.C.Chiropractic physicianLake Oswego Chiropractic ClinicPlease note "New address" 315 Second StreetLake Oswego, OR 97034503-635-6246drscott@...orinfo@...

[Guest guest]

: I agree with you. I kept adjusting my teenage daughter's neck and

upper back daily when she swam competitively until one of her friend's

asked- why don't you take her to a doctor? After I got over being insulted,

I realized I had just been providing palliative are and hadn't even thought

about the underlying cause. When I increased her Vitamin C, bioflavinoids

and calcium intakes her pain went away even with the swimming. No more

daily adjustments. I am sure I have done it at the office also. I keep

doing what I have done expecting a good result. Ann Goldeen, Astoria

Re: Going out on a limb here........

> In a message dated 1/20/04 12:50:17 PM Central Standard Time,

> adesiena@... writes:

>

> << Marketing wise

> there is more money in covering a symptom than creating a cure. Was

> that the motivation of the pharmaceutical companies in their choice of

> covering the symptoms or curing the issue? >>

>

>

> I am not sure they had a motive to cover symptoms or cure disease. Some

> medications cure disease - I saw a child not too long ago with bacterial

> meningitis. I have no doubt that by using a third generation cephalosporin

with good

> cerebrospinal penetration was what cured the potentially fatal disease.

>

> Like (to play devils advocate, create some food for thought) - do spinal

> adjustments simply cover symptoms at times? Examples - gallbladder pain

referred

> to the right shoulder blade area - after an adjustment feels better-but is

not

> cured until the gallbladder is fixed.

>

> Are some fixations beneficial - the bodies effort to make a more stable

joint

> - perhaps joint degeneration that the body is trying to help through

ligament

> sclerosis and muscle splinting? Could an adjustment make the joint less

> stable?

>

> There are other thoughts, but that ought to stir some controversy.

>

> Anglen

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his

or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In my neck of the woods, the insurance reps show up at the medical clinics

every week with presents galore. They hang around and flatter the staff.

While the staff knows what it is for, the doctors seem clueless. They keep

writing those scripts for Vioxx and Prozak to EVERYONE. Ann Goldeen,

Astoria

Re: Going out on a limb here........

> In a message dated 1/20/04 3:16:29 PM Central Standard Time,

> adesiena@... writes:

>

> << Receiving tips, new golf clubs, etc. are all condoned by

> the AMA as ethical practices. >>

>

> This use to be the case but new laws have pretty much eliminated all of

this

> - even baseball tickets. However drug companies have found a more

effective

> use of their money, and a more insidious way to drug the public - its

called

> direct to market advertising - with slogans like " just ask your doctor for

the

> little purple pill " . They tell the patients now what they need and to ask

their

> doctors for it. The spending on direct to market advertising has gone up

> tremendously.

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his

or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/20/04 11:53:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time, anngoldeen@... writes:

the insurance reps show up at the medical clinics

every week with presents galore

you mean drug reps, don't you? yeah they still show up with some note pads, a book on ear infections, or maybe a tote bag - but that is about it - due to the new laws. Sometimes if they have an in office lunch mini-lectuer on a drug, they provide lunch. Otherwise the cruises, money kickbacks and baseball tickets are a thing of the past. But yearh thye come by every week and give free samples to provide the patients with etc.

Anglen

[Guest guest]

Well said!! Try to catch Bruce Lipton if you haven't already. He's a kick, and a lot more science oriented. TEaches at Life WEst.

Dr.Don White

[Guest guest]

,

Your example of the gallbladder pain resolving after an adjustment with the

organ still subacute is good. Here is where we, as DCs, particularly in

Oregon with our scope of practice need to take a few further steps. In this

clinic, we follow that adjustment with instructions for a gallbladder/liver

cleanse. THAT does resolve the problem .. or, at least, it has in every

acute case I have handled since adding the follow-up cleanse. Then dietary

advise and all the home-instruction stuff seems to seep into the patient's

ear a bit more readily.

Now, the gb/liver cleanse is (approximately) lesson # 8 in a patient's

passage through this clinic.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 711 Country Club

Rd., #1A Eugene, Oregon 541-345-9436

Re: Going out on a limb here........

> In a message dated 1/20/04 12:50:17 PM Central Standard Time,

> adesiena@... writes:

>

> << Marketing wise

> there is more money in covering a symptom than creating a cure. Was

> that the motivation of the pharmaceutical companies in their choice of

> covering the symptoms or curing the issue? >>

>

>

> I am not sure they had a motive to cover symptoms or cure disease. Some

> medications cure disease - I saw a child not too long ago with bacterial

> meningitis. I have no doubt that by using a third generation cephalosporin

with good

> cerebrospinal penetration was what cured the potentially fatal disease.

>

> Like (to play devils advocate, create some food for thought) - do spinal

> adjustments simply cover symptoms at times? Examples - gallbladder pain

referred

> to the right shoulder blade area - after an adjustment feels better-but is

not

> cured until the gallbladder is fixed.

>

> Are some fixations beneficial - the bodies effort to make a more stable

joint

> - perhaps joint degeneration that the body is trying to help through

ligament

> sclerosis and muscle splinting? Could an adjustment make the joint less

> stable?

>

> There are other thoughts, but that ought to stir some controversy.

>

> Anglen

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward,

or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his

or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Don and OR DCs,

Yep, I was at the Ted Koren seminar a few years ago. (BTW: Whatever happened

to the Chiropractic Forum anyway? They put on some good stuff.)

Ted at the time was having some issues with the FDA for over-reaching with some

of his publications. He beat 'em ultimately, but more or less on 1st Amendment

grounds as I recall and not on the scientific rigor of his analysis.

Listening to him is interesting and he provides some good ideas about what

" science " may be saying about things relevant to chiropractic. But I'd suspect

that " junk science " might be on the minds of some folks on this list were they

in attendance at one of his programs.

I guess I'm in support of the Joe Keating/Jay Triano school of skepticism. Let

the evidence speak for itself and not stretch a little science here to some

grander speculation there. In part I suppose it depends on the audience.

Hard-nosed epidemiologist-types aren't impressed by small clinical trials with

suggetive outcomes. Less rigorous minds look at the same studies and think " why

not? " " We all know it works...this proves it. "

Still loving what I do and comfortable that some things aren't readily explained

by " science. "

C Simpson

[Guest guest]

You are correct, . I just saw an ad for Zoloft with little bouncing

ovoid characters. One of the ovoids was sad, isolated, unmotivated. It took

Zoloft and got in the group with the other ovoids. I think they were on

Zoloft, too. I found myself wishing I could be an unhappy ovid so I could

take Zoloft.

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

Please note " New address " 315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

drscott@...

or

info@...

> From: ang320@...

> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:41:04 EST

> adesiena@...,

> Subject: Re: Going out on a limb here........

>

> In a message dated 1/20/04 3:16:29 PM Central Standard Time,

> adesiena@... writes:

>

> << Receiving tips, new golf clubs, etc. are all condoned by

> the AMA as ethical practices. >>

>

> This use to be the case but new laws have pretty much eliminated all of this

> - even baseball tickets. However drug companies have found a more effective

> use of their money, and a more insidious way to drug the public - its called

> direct to market advertising - with slogans like " just ask your doctor for the

> little purple pill " . They tell the patients now what they need and to ask

> their

> doctors for it. The spending on direct to market advertising has gone up

> tremendously.

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster

> communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will

> be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it

> is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise

> distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her

> consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

>

>