Re: WebMD on Organic Foods

[Guest guest]

Consumer Reoports this month has a feature report on Organic Foods. If people

want, I can post the 3 article to the list

Jeff

________________________________

From: on behalf of Rodney

Sent: Wed 01/11/06 7:54 AM

Subject: [ ] WebMD on Organic Foods

http://foxnews.webmd.com/content/article/82/97396.htm?src=rss_foxnews

Rodney.

[Guest guest]

Consumer Reoports this month has a feature report on Organic Foods. If people

want, I can post the 3 article to the list

Jeff

________________________________

From: on behalf of Rodney

Sent: Wed 01/11/06 7:54 AM

Subject: [ ] WebMD on Organic Foods

http://foxnews.webmd.com/content/article/82/97396.htm?src=rss_foxnews

Rodney.

[Guest guest]

I would be grateful if you would post that article here, or send to me

offlist. TIA.

Jeff Novick wrote:

>Consumer Reoports this month has a feature report on Organic Foods. If people

want, I can post the 3 article to the list

>

>Jeff

>

>________________________________

>From: on behalf of Rodney

>Sent: Wed 01/11/06 7:54 AM

>

>Subject: [ ] WebMD on Organic Foods

>

>http://foxnews.webmd.com/content/article/82/97396.htm?src=rss_foxnews

>

>Rodney.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would be grateful if you would post that article here, or send to me

offlist. TIA.

Jeff Novick wrote:

>Consumer Reoports this month has a feature report on Organic Foods. If people

want, I can post the 3 article to the list

>

>Jeff

>

>________________________________

>From: on behalf of Rodney

>Sent: Wed 01/11/06 7:54 AM

>

>Subject: [ ] WebMD on Organic Foods

>

>http://foxnews.webmd.com/content/article/82/97396.htm?src=rss_foxnews

>

>Rodney.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If I had the choice and the money, I'd probably prefer organically grown stuff, but as a teen I lived on an acre of poor sandy soil and tried to get into it everything I could to enrich it, which wasn't much. Grass clippings, chicken manure, etc.

There are significant losses feeding warm blooded animals. In the limit I doubt very seriously you can recycle the wastes to feed a growing population. Fertilizer is required and insect and other animal depredation cannot be tolerated. We waste a lot of organic material simply because it's not "economical" to recycle it.

If you had a few acres and grew a beautiful crop you'd notice the bugs, birds raccoons, and everything else drawn to it. Then there's the weather. So if you try raising organic produce it will cost more - significantly more.

So the real question is how to develop fertilizers and pesticides that grow the most healthy food and conserve resources.

I doubt any label that says organic - I don't care who inspects it. They won't be inspecting every batch and anyone can be bought.

We have to find the foods that provide what we need and minimize disease.

I picked up a box of organic raisins yesterday - cost 3.69, when I could get a name brand twice as large for half the cost. And probably the worst part of raisins is the sugar. (I wash the ones I eat).

Regards.

[ ] WebMD on Organic Foods

http://foxnews.webmd.com/content/article/82/97396.htm?src=rss_foxnewsRodney.

[Guest guest]

If I had the choice and the money, I'd probably prefer organically grown stuff, but as a teen I lived on an acre of poor sandy soil and tried to get into it everything I could to enrich it, which wasn't much. Grass clippings, chicken manure, etc.

There are significant losses feeding warm blooded animals. In the limit I doubt very seriously you can recycle the wastes to feed a growing population. Fertilizer is required and insect and other animal depredation cannot be tolerated. We waste a lot of organic material simply because it's not "economical" to recycle it.

If you had a few acres and grew a beautiful crop you'd notice the bugs, birds raccoons, and everything else drawn to it. Then there's the weather. So if you try raising organic produce it will cost more - significantly more.

So the real question is how to develop fertilizers and pesticides that grow the most healthy food and conserve resources.

I doubt any label that says organic - I don't care who inspects it. They won't be inspecting every batch and anyone can be bought.

We have to find the foods that provide what we need and minimize disease.

I picked up a box of organic raisins yesterday - cost 3.69, when I could get a name brand twice as large for half the cost. And probably the worst part of raisins is the sugar. (I wash the ones I eat).

Regards.

[ ] WebMD on Organic Foods

http://foxnews.webmd.com/content/article/82/97396.htm?src=rss_foxnewsRodney.

[Guest guest]

jwwright wrote:

>

> There are significant losses feeding warm blooded animals. In the

> limit I doubt very seriously you can recycle the wastes to feed a

> growing population. Fertilizer is required and insect and other animal

> depredation cannot be tolerated. We waste a lot of organic material

> simply because it's not " economical " to recycle it.

>

The people on this list may not live to see it, but the lifespan of

our civilization could be cut short by ~not~ recycling waste products.

Modern agriculture is a 1-way pipeline that transports phosphate from

concentrated rock deposits to fertilizer products to crops to feces to

rivers to the ocean. At current rates we can imagine running out of

usable phosphate deposits in a few hundred years.

I tried explaining to my kid how a lush natural ecosystem can exist

on much poorer soil than an agricultural operation: the basic answer is

that (almost) nothing leaves the system, so that the slow release of

nutrients from rocks eroding matches the losses. I've got a small hobby

farm where animals eat grass from our fields and we put (some) of the

manure on our vegetable beds, and it's been astonishing how much the

soil quality has changed in the vegetable beds in the last four years.

Organic food? I pick and choose. I eat organic dairy products as

much as I can. We have organic and conventional foods side-by-side at

our co-op and I decide on the basis of quality and price. Sometimes we

see organic Bosc pears from Oregon for 79 cents a pound, and that's an

obvious decision. Pesticide use and risk depends on the crop and the

location. Organic Apples are hard to grow here in NY because you need

strong chemicals to control fire blight; the Pacific NW doesn't have

the problem, which benefits organic and conventional producers here.

As for your kale, swiss chard and such, your best bet is grow your

own.

[Guest guest]

jwwright wrote:

>

> There are significant losses feeding warm blooded animals. In the

> limit I doubt very seriously you can recycle the wastes to feed a

> growing population. Fertilizer is required and insect and other animal

> depredation cannot be tolerated. We waste a lot of organic material

> simply because it's not " economical " to recycle it.

>

The people on this list may not live to see it, but the lifespan of

our civilization could be cut short by ~not~ recycling waste products.

Modern agriculture is a 1-way pipeline that transports phosphate from

concentrated rock deposits to fertilizer products to crops to feces to

rivers to the ocean. At current rates we can imagine running out of

usable phosphate deposits in a few hundred years.

I tried explaining to my kid how a lush natural ecosystem can exist

on much poorer soil than an agricultural operation: the basic answer is

that (almost) nothing leaves the system, so that the slow release of

nutrients from rocks eroding matches the losses. I've got a small hobby

farm where animals eat grass from our fields and we put (some) of the

manure on our vegetable beds, and it's been astonishing how much the

soil quality has changed in the vegetable beds in the last four years.

Organic food? I pick and choose. I eat organic dairy products as

much as I can. We have organic and conventional foods side-by-side at

our co-op and I decide on the basis of quality and price. Sometimes we

see organic Bosc pears from Oregon for 79 cents a pound, and that's an

obvious decision. Pesticide use and risk depends on the crop and the

location. Organic Apples are hard to grow here in NY because you need

strong chemicals to control fire blight; the Pacific NW doesn't have

the problem, which benefits organic and conventional producers here.

As for your kale, swiss chard and such, your best bet is grow your

own.

[Guest guest]

Thanks ,

No disagreement, but I think you'll find the "fertilizer products to crops to feces to rivers to the ocean"

sequence will not be changed a lot if we recover ALL the human waste to fertilize crops. I believe we get more nitrogen form the air in rain.

Re: [ ] WebMD on Organic Foods

jwwright wrote:>> There are significant losses feeding warm blooded animals. In the > limit I doubt very seriously you can recycle the wastes to feed a > growing population. Fertilizer is required and insect and other animal > depredation cannot be tolerated. We waste a lot of organic material > simply because it's not "economical" to recycle it.> The people on this list may not live to see it, but the lifespan of our civilization could be cut short by ~not~ recycling waste products. Modern agriculture is a 1-way pipeline that transports phosphate from concentrated rock deposits to fertilizer products to crops to feces to rivers to the ocean. At current rates we can imagine running out of usable phosphate deposits in a few hundred years. I tried explaining to my kid how a lush natural ecosystem can exist on much poorer soil than an agricultural operation: the basic answer is that (almost) nothing leaves the system, so that the slow release of nutrients from rocks eroding matches the losses.

I believe what you're saying but recognize we humans would take a lot out of that ecosystem. If we insert ourselves into that system without changing anything except we eat the fruits/nuts, it will eventually die. That forest can only give up nutrients to just so many humans.

So maybe it can support one family per 50 acres? What happens when we reproduce?

The agri system has to provide food for others as well.

I've got a small hobby farm where animals eat grass from our fields and we put (some) of the manure on our vegetable beds, and it's been astonishing how much the soil quality has changed in the vegetable beds in the last four years. Organic food? I pick and choose. I eat organic dairy products as much as I can. We have organic and conventional foods side-by-side at our co-op and I decide on the basis of quality and price. Sometimes we see organic Bosc pears from Oregon for 79 cents a pound, and that's an obvious decision. Pesticide use and risk depends on the crop and the location. Organic Apples are hard to grow here in NY because you need strong chemicals to control fire blight; the Pacific NW doesn't have the problem, which benefits organic and conventional producers here. As for your kale, swiss chard and such, your best bet is grow your own.Regards.

[Guest guest]

Thanks ,

No disagreement, but I think you'll find the "fertilizer products to crops to feces to rivers to the ocean"

sequence will not be changed a lot if we recover ALL the human waste to fertilize crops. I believe we get more nitrogen form the air in rain.

Re: [ ] WebMD on Organic Foods

jwwright wrote:>> There are significant losses feeding warm blooded animals. In the > limit I doubt very seriously you can recycle the wastes to feed a > growing population. Fertilizer is required and insect and other animal > depredation cannot be tolerated. We waste a lot of organic material > simply because it's not "economical" to recycle it.> The people on this list may not live to see it, but the lifespan of our civilization could be cut short by ~not~ recycling waste products. Modern agriculture is a 1-way pipeline that transports phosphate from concentrated rock deposits to fertilizer products to crops to feces to rivers to the ocean. At current rates we can imagine running out of usable phosphate deposits in a few hundred years. I tried explaining to my kid how a lush natural ecosystem can exist on much poorer soil than an agricultural operation: the basic answer is that (almost) nothing leaves the system, so that the slow release of nutrients from rocks eroding matches the losses.

I believe what you're saying but recognize we humans would take a lot out of that ecosystem. If we insert ourselves into that system without changing anything except we eat the fruits/nuts, it will eventually die. That forest can only give up nutrients to just so many humans.

So maybe it can support one family per 50 acres? What happens when we reproduce?

The agri system has to provide food for others as well.

I've got a small hobby farm where animals eat grass from our fields and we put (some) of the manure on our vegetable beds, and it's been astonishing how much the soil quality has changed in the vegetable beds in the last four years. Organic food? I pick and choose. I eat organic dairy products as much as I can. We have organic and conventional foods side-by-side at our co-op and I decide on the basis of quality and price. Sometimes we see organic Bosc pears from Oregon for 79 cents a pound, and that's an obvious decision. Pesticide use and risk depends on the crop and the location. Organic Apples are hard to grow here in NY because you need strong chemicals to control fire blight; the Pacific NW doesn't have the problem, which benefits organic and conventional producers here. As for your kale, swiss chard and such, your best bet is grow your own.Regards.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I have a slightly different slant on this. Scientific progress is

rapid enough that in a couple of hundred years I very much doubt we

will still be digging up phosphates with which to grow food.

I don't know how fast scientific knowledge is accumulating, pehaps

you do? But let's say the amount discovered each year is growing at

a rate of 4% per year, then the amount of knowledge discovered in the

year 2206 will be 2550 times as much as will be discovered this

year. And the accumulated body of scientific knowledge will be about

2500 times as great also.

When we know 2500 times as much as we do now, digging up phosphates

may be a standing joke among students and regarded as " oh how very

quaint " by then.

If scientific knowledge is accumulating at a rate that is growing

faster than 4%, or if the rate of scientific discovery is

accelerating, then the numbers will be much greater than those quoted

above.

But I do like the very elegant simplicity of your model, from the ore

deposit to the sea. It gave me a very broad smile : ^ )))))

[And welcome if you are new, I haven't seen you post before].

Rodney.

> >

> > There are significant losses feeding warm blooded animals. In the

> > limit I doubt very seriously you can recycle the wastes to feed a

> > growing population. Fertilizer is required and insect and other

animal

> > depredation cannot be tolerated. We waste a lot of organic

material

> > simply because it's not " economical " to recycle it.

> >

> The people on this list may not live to see it, but the

lifespan of

> our civilization could be cut short by ~not~ recycling waste

products.

> Modern agriculture is a 1-way pipeline that transports phosphate

from

> concentrated rock deposits to fertilizer products to crops to feces

to

> rivers to the ocean. At current rates we can imagine running out

of

> usable phosphate deposits in a few hundred years.

>

> I tried explaining to my kid how a lush natural ecosystem can

exist

> on much poorer soil than an agricultural operation: the basic

answer is

> that (almost) nothing leaves the system, so that the slow release

of

> nutrients from rocks eroding matches the losses. I've got a small

hobby

> farm where animals eat grass from our fields and we put (some) of

the

> manure on our vegetable beds, and it's been astonishing how much

the

> soil quality has changed in the vegetable beds in the last four

years.

>

> Organic food? I pick and choose. I eat organic dairy products

as

> much as I can. We have organic and conventional foods side-by-side

at

> our co-op and I decide on the basis of quality and price.

Sometimes we

> see organic Bosc pears from Oregon for 79 cents a pound, and

that's an

> obvious decision. Pesticide use and risk depends on the crop and

the

> location. Organic Apples are hard to grow here in NY because you

need

> strong chemicals to control fire blight; the Pacific NW doesn't

have

> the problem, which benefits organic and conventional producers

here.

>

> As for your kale, swiss chard and such, your best bet is grow

your

> own.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I have a slightly different slant on this. Scientific progress is

rapid enough that in a couple of hundred years I very much doubt we

will still be digging up phosphates with which to grow food.

I don't know how fast scientific knowledge is accumulating, pehaps

you do? But let's say the amount discovered each year is growing at

a rate of 4% per year, then the amount of knowledge discovered in the

year 2206 will be 2550 times as much as will be discovered this

year. And the accumulated body of scientific knowledge will be about

2500 times as great also.

When we know 2500 times as much as we do now, digging up phosphates

may be a standing joke among students and regarded as " oh how very

quaint " by then.

If scientific knowledge is accumulating at a rate that is growing

faster than 4%, or if the rate of scientific discovery is

accelerating, then the numbers will be much greater than those quoted

above.

But I do like the very elegant simplicity of your model, from the ore

deposit to the sea. It gave me a very broad smile : ^ )))))

[And welcome if you are new, I haven't seen you post before].

Rodney.

> >

> > There are significant losses feeding warm blooded animals. In the

> > limit I doubt very seriously you can recycle the wastes to feed a

> > growing population. Fertilizer is required and insect and other

animal

> > depredation cannot be tolerated. We waste a lot of organic

material

> > simply because it's not " economical " to recycle it.

> >

> The people on this list may not live to see it, but the

lifespan of

> our civilization could be cut short by ~not~ recycling waste

products.

> Modern agriculture is a 1-way pipeline that transports phosphate

from

> concentrated rock deposits to fertilizer products to crops to feces

to

> rivers to the ocean. At current rates we can imagine running out

of

> usable phosphate deposits in a few hundred years.

>

> I tried explaining to my kid how a lush natural ecosystem can

exist

> on much poorer soil than an agricultural operation: the basic

answer is

> that (almost) nothing leaves the system, so that the slow release

of

> nutrients from rocks eroding matches the losses. I've got a small

hobby

> farm where animals eat grass from our fields and we put (some) of

the

> manure on our vegetable beds, and it's been astonishing how much

the

> soil quality has changed in the vegetable beds in the last four

years.

>

> Organic food? I pick and choose. I eat organic dairy products

as

> much as I can. We have organic and conventional foods side-by-side

at

> our co-op and I decide on the basis of quality and price.

Sometimes we

> see organic Bosc pears from Oregon for 79 cents a pound, and

that's an

> obvious decision. Pesticide use and risk depends on the crop and

the

> location. Organic Apples are hard to grow here in NY because you

need

> strong chemicals to control fire blight; the Pacific NW doesn't

have

> the problem, which benefits organic and conventional producers

here.

>

> As for your kale, swiss chard and such, your best bet is grow

your

> own.

>