vegetarian diets best?

[Guest guest]

We already know that some form

of a " vegetarian " diet is probably best, and probably bester if

we started young.

As someone who became a vegetarian at 22 and added fish 23 years later

and fowl five years after that, I was obviously unconvinced that this was

the case. I added fish not because I just couldn't hold out any longer

(lol) but because I thought there were clearly demonstrated health

benefits from consuming seafood. Similarly with the fowl, it seems like

high-quality, relatively low-calorie protein, when consumed in moderation

(once every week or two for me, although I don't think that more often

would be harmful). So I'd suggest we all take a deep breath and relax

before ceding this high ground to the vegetarians (and such a one was I .

.. .). And absent Beano, vegans fart too much.

;-)

Maco

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Maco,

Didn't mean to inflame anyone, "some form of a vegetarian diet" is just as obscure as your "vegetarian" diet whatever it was. I'm guessing vegan.

Vegetarian diets are used to "cure" people supposedly (pritikin, ricediet), for many years.

Of course, your adding fish is probably good because you added some aminos not found in veggie foods, like taurine, carnitine. Even Ornish has said to add a little fish.

FWIW, I don't accept "high-quality" as an adjective applied to animal protein. Vegetable proteins supposedly tend to be less bioavailable so some compensation is suggested by "Criteria and Significance of Dietary Protein Sources in Humans" series, Nitrogen and Amino Acid Requirements: The MIT Amino Acid Req't Pattern, Young and Borgonha, 2000 Am Soc for Nutr sciences, pg 1841s:

AND "Quantifying the Digestibility of Dietary Protein, Darragh and Hodkinson, pg 1850s:

AND "The Protein Digestibility-Corrected Amino Acid Score, Schaafsma:

AND "Summary of the Workshop with Recommendations, s, Schaafsma, Tome, and Young, pg 1847s.

AND "Dietary Protein and Nitrogen Utilization, Tome and Bos, pg 1868s."

Anyone who really wants to understand the difference in proteins, should get the full texts of these articles. They were the basis for the latest rec's.

Then and only then will we have a better understanding of the problems with a vegan, etc, diet.

I am NOT, BTW, a vegetarian. I eat anything I decide to eat, be it fowl, pork, fish, whatever. But I don;t eat a lot of it. Mainly, because as you demonstrate there is no concensus, even after >100 yrs of using veggies diets to cure people. I am too careful to rely on anyone's views or tests.

The phrase vegans fxxx too much is characteristic of me if I eat too much of any protein. It's the gut process that allows bacteria to feed on excess food. I think you or they were eating more than required which is what CR is all about. And the word vegetarian to a lot of vegetarians mean replacing meat with soy which is characteristically bad for me in the way of fxxxs. I have very little gas eating 1800 kcals, regardless of the foods I eat, except dried beans, which I avoid.

So what form should OUR vegetarian diet take? Walford's was pretty clear to me. I saw him on TV eating a large salad. But I can't eat that much salad, so I stick with a DASH like diet, a diet approved my the medicals.

Still, I can't eat that much protein suggested by the DASH.

So let's look at that.

As Tony pointed out the rec is 54 grams for a 150#er. That's about right for me (56 gms) to maintain weight, it turns out by my experience.

How could I justify Walford's, et al, rec when I eat the minimum calories? Would I eat 1800 kcals of just protein? Well, there's a conversion loss of maybe 10%, so I'd need to eat 1980 if it was all protein. That's for my BMR plus about 250 up and around energy.

Golly, maybe I could substitute some of that with carbos and eat less calories, since I'm gonna burn it anyway. Is that not feasible? In fact, I might substitute all the extra protein with carbos or fat, and achieve a "perfect" diet for me. No bone loss, no fxxxs, and not a lot of wasted nitrogen. And no skatol, etc, in my gut from the conversion of the protein to energy.

Maybe I could depend on animal protein alone and use even less protein because of the higher digestibility, ergo, less calories.

And if I add say 3 miles of energy, 300 kcals, maybe that could be in the same proportion of protein, fat, carbos? If I had a glucose problem I might change it accordingly.

IOW, isn't it possible to find a way to get the right diet that provides the RDAs for vits/minerals, the amino acids I have found for my body, and the fatty acids which are essential or needed in addition to the essentials. I have no idea why I would need more amino acids than I presently eat from a varied diet, in terms of essential aminos or total nitrogen, but it surely is not as simple as multiplying 0.8 or 2 times my weight.

Finally, since my animal intake is relatively low, like 200 - 300 of 1800 kcals, I might call it a plant based diet.

Regards.

[ ] vegetarian diets best?

We already know that some form of a "vegetarian" diet is probably best, and probably bester if we started young. As someone who became a vegetarian at 22 and added fish 23 years later and fowl five years after that, I was obviously unconvinced that this was the case. I added fish not because I just couldn't hold out any longer (lol) but because I thought there were clearly demonstrated health benefits from consuming seafood. Similarly with the fowl, it seems like high-quality, relatively low-calorie protein, when consumed in moderation (once every week or two for me, although I don't think that more often would be harmful). So I'd suggest we all take a deep breath and relax before ceding this high ground to the vegetarians (and such a one was I . . .). And absent Beano, vegans fart too much.;-)Maco

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Maco,

Didn't mean to inflame anyone, "some form of a vegetarian diet" is just as obscure as your "vegetarian" diet whatever it was. I'm guessing vegan.

Vegetarian diets are used to "cure" people supposedly (pritikin, ricediet), for many years.

Of course, your adding fish is probably good because you added some aminos not found in veggie foods, like taurine, carnitine. Even Ornish has said to add a little fish.

FWIW, I don't accept "high-quality" as an adjective applied to animal protein. Vegetable proteins supposedly tend to be less bioavailable so some compensation is suggested by "Criteria and Significance of Dietary Protein Sources in Humans" series, Nitrogen and Amino Acid Requirements: The MIT Amino Acid Req't Pattern, Young and Borgonha, 2000 Am Soc for Nutr sciences, pg 1841s:

AND "Quantifying the Digestibility of Dietary Protein, Darragh and Hodkinson, pg 1850s:

AND "The Protein Digestibility-Corrected Amino Acid Score, Schaafsma:

AND "Summary of the Workshop with Recommendations, s, Schaafsma, Tome, and Young, pg 1847s.

AND "Dietary Protein and Nitrogen Utilization, Tome and Bos, pg 1868s."

Anyone who really wants to understand the difference in proteins, should get the full texts of these articles. They were the basis for the latest rec's.

Then and only then will we have a better understanding of the problems with a vegan, etc, diet.

I am NOT, BTW, a vegetarian. I eat anything I decide to eat, be it fowl, pork, fish, whatever. But I don;t eat a lot of it. Mainly, because as you demonstrate there is no concensus, even after >100 yrs of using veggies diets to cure people. I am too careful to rely on anyone's views or tests.

The phrase vegans fxxx too much is characteristic of me if I eat too much of any protein. It's the gut process that allows bacteria to feed on excess food. I think you or they were eating more than required which is what CR is all about. And the word vegetarian to a lot of vegetarians mean replacing meat with soy which is characteristically bad for me in the way of fxxxs. I have very little gas eating 1800 kcals, regardless of the foods I eat, except dried beans, which I avoid.

So what form should OUR vegetarian diet take? Walford's was pretty clear to me. I saw him on TV eating a large salad. But I can't eat that much salad, so I stick with a DASH like diet, a diet approved my the medicals.

Still, I can't eat that much protein suggested by the DASH.

So let's look at that.

As Tony pointed out the rec is 54 grams for a 150#er. That's about right for me (56 gms) to maintain weight, it turns out by my experience.

How could I justify Walford's, et al, rec when I eat the minimum calories? Would I eat 1800 kcals of just protein? Well, there's a conversion loss of maybe 10%, so I'd need to eat 1980 if it was all protein. That's for my BMR plus about 250 up and around energy.

Golly, maybe I could substitute some of that with carbos and eat less calories, since I'm gonna burn it anyway. Is that not feasible? In fact, I might substitute all the extra protein with carbos or fat, and achieve a "perfect" diet for me. No bone loss, no fxxxs, and not a lot of wasted nitrogen. And no skatol, etc, in my gut from the conversion of the protein to energy.

Maybe I could depend on animal protein alone and use even less protein because of the higher digestibility, ergo, less calories.

And if I add say 3 miles of energy, 300 kcals, maybe that could be in the same proportion of protein, fat, carbos? If I had a glucose problem I might change it accordingly.

IOW, isn't it possible to find a way to get the right diet that provides the RDAs for vits/minerals, the amino acids I have found for my body, and the fatty acids which are essential or needed in addition to the essentials. I have no idea why I would need more amino acids than I presently eat from a varied diet, in terms of essential aminos or total nitrogen, but it surely is not as simple as multiplying 0.8 or 2 times my weight.

Finally, since my animal intake is relatively low, like 200 - 300 of 1800 kcals, I might call it a plant based diet.

Regards.

[ ] vegetarian diets best?

We already know that some form of a "vegetarian" diet is probably best, and probably bester if we started young. As someone who became a vegetarian at 22 and added fish 23 years later and fowl five years after that, I was obviously unconvinced that this was the case. I added fish not because I just couldn't hold out any longer (lol) but because I thought there were clearly demonstrated health benefits from consuming seafood. Similarly with the fowl, it seems like high-quality, relatively low-calorie protein, when consumed in moderation (once every week or two for me, although I don't think that more often would be harmful). So I'd suggest we all take a deep breath and relax before ceding this high ground to the vegetarians (and such a one was I . . .). And absent Beano, vegans fart too much.;-)Maco

[Guest guest]

The implication that a vegan diet is somehow likely to be deficient in

protein is a relic of the 1970s. According to the ADA Position Paper

on Vegetarianism (and veganism), it is trivial to get enough protein

simply by eating a variety of whole foods over a 24 hour period, even

if no animal products are ever consumed. Various amino acids from

many different foods combine to produce complete proteins in the

intestines. You do not even need to consume " complete vegan proteins "

such as soybeans, tofu, soy meat analogs, etc., nor do you need to

worry about food combining at a given meal. All essential amino acids

are easily obtained, and by definition, the nonessential amino acids

can be synthesized by your body, provided that you are healthy.

>

> Thanks, Maco,

> Didn't mean to inflame anyone, " some form of a vegetarian diet " is

just as obscure as your " vegetarian " diet whatever it was. I'm

guessing vegan.

> Vegetarian diets are used to " cure " people supposedly (pritikin,

ricediet), for many years.

> Of course, your adding fish is probably good because you added some

aminos not found in veggie foods, like taurine, carnitine. Even Ornish

has said to add a little fish.

>

> FWIW, I don't accept " high-quality " as an adjective applied to

animal protein. Vegetable proteins supposedly tend to be less

bioavailable so some compensation is suggested by " Criteria and

Significance of Dietary Protein Sources in Humans " series, Nitrogen

and Amino Acid Requirements: The MIT Amino Acid Req't Pattern, Young

and Borgonha, 2000 Am Soc for Nutr sciences, pg 1841s:

> AND " Quantifying the Digestibility of Dietary Protein, Darragh and

Hodkinson, pg 1850s:

> AND " The Protein Digestibility-Corrected Amino Acid Score, Schaafsma:

> AND " Summary of the Workshop with Recommendations, s,

Schaafsma, Tome, and Young, pg 1847s.

> AND " Dietary Protein and Nitrogen Utilization, Tome and Bos, pg 1868s. "

>

> Anyone who really wants to understand the difference in proteins,

should get the full texts of these articles. They were the basis for

the latest rec's.

>

> Then and only then will we have a better understanding of the

problems with a vegan, etc, diet.

>

> I am NOT, BTW, a vegetarian. I eat anything I decide to eat, be it

fowl, pork, fish, whatever. But I don;t eat a lot of it. Mainly,

because as you demonstrate there is no concensus, even after >100 yrs

of using veggies diets to cure people. I am too careful to rely on

anyone's views or tests.

>

> The phrase vegans fxxx too much is characteristic of me if I eat too

much of any protein. It's the gut process that allows bacteria to feed

on excess food. I think you or they were eating more than required

which is what CR is all about. And the word vegetarian to a lot of

vegetarians mean replacing meat with soy which is characteristically

bad for me in the way of fxxxs. I have very little gas eating 1800

kcals, regardless of the foods I eat, except dried beans, which I avoid.

>

> So what form should OUR vegetarian diet take? Walford's was pretty

clear to me. I saw him on TV eating a large salad. But I can't eat

that much salad, so I stick with a DASH like diet, a diet approved my

the medicals.

>

> Still, I can't eat that much protein suggested by the DASH.

>

> So let's look at that.

> As Tony pointed out the rec is 54 grams for a 150#er. That's about

right for me (56 gms) to maintain weight, it turns out by my experience.

>

> How could I justify Walford's, et al, rec when I eat the minimum

calories? Would I eat 1800 kcals of just protein? Well, there's a

conversion loss of maybe 10%, so I'd need to eat 1980 if it was all

protein. That's for my BMR plus about 250 up and around energy.

>

> Golly, maybe I could substitute some of that with carbos and eat

less calories, since I'm gonna burn it anyway. Is that not feasible?

In fact, I might substitute all the extra protein with carbos or fat,

and achieve a " perfect " diet for me. No bone loss, no fxxxs, and not a

lot of wasted nitrogen. And no skatol, etc, in my gut from the

conversion of the protein to energy.

> Maybe I could depend on animal protein alone and use even less

protein because of the higher digestibility, ergo, less calories.

>

> And if I add say 3 miles of energy, 300 kcals, maybe that could be

in the same proportion of protein, fat, carbos? If I had a glucose

problem I might change it accordingly.

>

> IOW, isn't it possible to find a way to get the right diet that

provides the RDAs for vits/minerals, the amino acids I have found for

my body, and the fatty acids which are essential or needed in addition

to the essentials. I have no idea why I would need more amino acids

than I presently eat from a varied diet, in terms of essential aminos

or total nitrogen, but it surely is not as simple as multiplying 0.8

or 2 times my weight.

>

> Finally, since my animal intake is relatively low, like 200 - 300 of

1800 kcals, I might call it a plant based diet.

>

> Regards.

>

>

> [ ] vegetarian diets best?

>

>

> We already know that some form of a " vegetarian " diet is

probably best, and probably bester if we started young.

>

> As someone who became a vegetarian at 22 and added fish 23 years

later and fowl five years after that, I was obviously unconvinced that

this was the case. I added fish not because I just couldn't hold out

any longer (lol) but because I thought there were clearly demonstrated

health benefits from consuming seafood. Similarly with the fowl, it

seems like high-quality, relatively low-calorie protein, when consumed

in moderation (once every week or two for me, although I don't think

that more often would be harmful). So I'd suggest we all take a deep

breath and relax before ceding this high ground to the vegetarians

(and such a one was I . . .). And absent Beano, vegans fart too much.

> ;-)

>

> Maco

>

[Guest guest]

> The implication that a vegan diet is somehow likely

> to be deficient in protein is a relic of the 1970s.

Correct, and not a scientifc one..

even at a slightly lower overall digestibility rate...

and even with a " slightly " higher protein/calorie

ratio if you are doing CR-ON, there is still no

problem.

Read my full posts here from 2 summers ago..

/message/15818

/message/15605

/message/15574

This is not in support of a Vegan diet but to clarify

the issues around plant proteins.

My problem with the terms " vegan " , " vegetarian " are

they do not tell me anything about what someones DOES

eat, they only tell me alittle about what they DONT

eat. You need to know both to understand someones

diet and its relation to health.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

> > As Tony pointed out the rec is 54 grams for a

> 150#er. That's about

> right for me (56 gms) to maintain weight, it turns

> out by my experience.

> >

> > How could I justify Walford's, et al, rec when I

> eat the minimum

> calories? Would I eat 1800 kcals of just protein?

> Well, there's a

> conversion loss of maybe 10%, so I'd need to eat

> 1980 if it was all

> protein. That's for my BMR plus about 250 up and

> around energy.

The math here is incorrect.

if you need 56 grams of protein (which already has a

buffer built in but I will allow you another one of

10%)... than you need 62 grams.

56 grams of protein is 224 calories of protein

62 grams of protein is 248 calories of protein

That is only an addition of 24 calories.

On an 1800 calorie diet if you want from eating 224

calories from protein to 248, you would only shift the

percent protein in the diet from 12.5% to 13.7% and

could easily achieve this with a very slight shift in

some foods you were already consuming.

Even on a Ornish, or Pritikin style diet, you are

consuming around 15-25% of your calories from Protein

BTW, while I am not recommending you do this..

850 Calories of Romaine lettuce would supply you with

62 grams of protein.. And all the amino acids you

need

And

1650 mgs of Ca+

48 mgs of iron

12 mgs of Zinc

2.5 mgs of copper

1200 mgs of Vit C

115,600 mcg of Lutein + zeaxanthin

5125 mcg of Vit K

6800 mcg of folate

and

2.3 grams of Omega 3s in a almost 2:1 ratio with Omega

6s

What piece of animal protein can do that?

Jeff

[Guest guest]

You may also want to see this article on " plant vs

animal proteins " that I posted back on 1/22/06

/message/22128

A concern we have found in our studies on protein,

including with isolated concentrated plants proteins

given in excess , is proteins increase IGF-1, which is

why they help increase growth rate of muscle cells,

but they also increase growth rate of cancer cells.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi ALl,

Walford's reading of the ODA/RDA

http://tinyurl.com/fma4k for that much romaine lettuce

is more like 25%. This seems to be what incomplete

proteins do. A protein with the optimum ratio of

amino acids would require only 62 grams of protein,

but not romaine lettuce protein.

--- Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...> wrote:

> 850 Calories of Romaine lettuce would supply you

> with

> 62 grams of protein.. And all the amino acids you

> need

-- Al Pater, PhD; email: old542000@...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Walford's reading of the ODA/RDA

> http://tinyurl.com/fma4k for that much romaine

> lettuce

> is more like 25%. This seems to be what incomplete

> proteins do. A protein with the optimum ratio of

> amino acids would require only 62 grams of protein,

> but not romaine lettuce protein.

as I went into in my posts...

first, there are no incomplete proteins in plant

foods. THe only one that I know of is an animal food

and that is gelatin. Some plant foods are referred to

as " limiting " but again, that is a misnomer based on

old outdated information and lack of understanding of

the amino acid pool.

Second, that was 850 calories of romaine and no one is

recommending or eating 850 as their only intake... but

if he ate 1800 of romaine, he would way surpass all

the amounts of AA He would ever need. It would be 131

grams of protein from 1800 calories of romaine.

At 1500 calories, it would be 113 grams of protein

with more than enough of every amino acid.

But, you dont need 1500 or 1800 calories of romaine

but 1500 - 1800 calories of a mixture of plant foods

would do the same. Thats the main point. You would

get 2-3x (if not 5x) the amount of every Amino Acid

you would need and there would be no limiting amino

acid.

As I also said in the post, and answered, Walford was

not 100% correct about the amino acid info. THe amino

acid scores/profiles have been updated.

BUt again, this isnt about one food, its about the

" potential " of a variety of plant foods to meet

nutritional adequacy when consumed in the proper

amounts.

And, as I said, the info was not to promote veganism

but to make a point about plant foods.

So, if someone wanted to add in 3-4 oz of lean animal

protein, they could... and again, all their protein

and AA needs would be met.

Clearly, when consuming an well planned intelligent

diet, no one needs to do anymore than that., and that

is the main point.

And, as we are always discussing " published "

endpoints.. does anyone know of any documented case of

a vegan experiencing protein deficiency??

Jeff

[Guest guest]

on a more " philosophical " note...

it doesnt matter what you call your diet...

vegan, vegetarian, traditional, zone, atkins, lacto

ove, pesci vegetarian... etc... etc..

What matter most if that you meet the nutritional

needs of the body as best as possible as set by the

leading scientific organizations for vitamins,

minerals, antioxidants, phytochemicals, fiber,

essential fats, essentials amino acids, etc etc.

Without too much of the bad.. sugar, saturated fat,

cholesterol, sodium, trans fat, etc etc

And do it with a reduction in calories (which ever %

you decide on).

My challange to you, as it has been to everyone, is to

forget the name of the diet but using a nutritional

analysis program, enter differing combinations of

foods ill you can accomplish this.

When you come up with the proper combo of foods to do

this with you will have the " best " diet...

BTW, it will be predominately on a per calorie and per

gram basis, plant foods. What you call it, wont

matter

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hey Al

In using Walfords calculator,, I get different results

than you... (if you see an error, let me know)

For Romaine Lettuce it gives value for 100 grams of

lettuce which is 14 calories (and about ~1/61 of 850

calories).

For protein he says this would provide 1.62 grams

which he says is 3% of the RDA based on 2000 calories.

(RDA for protein based on 2000 calories is 54 grams)

850 calories would than provide 99 grams and 183% of

the RDA for 2000 calories

For amino acids he says that 14 calories provides

Tyrosine 4%RDA

Lysine 15%RDA

Phenylalanine 7%RDA

Leucine 10%RDA

Valine 10 %RDA

Methionine 7%RDA

Cystine 6%RDA

Tryptophan 7%RDA

Threonine 15%RDA

Isoleucine 15%RDA

So multipy each one by 61 and we get the following

Tyrosine 244%RDA

Lysine 915%RDA

Phenylalanine 427%RDA

Leucine 610%RDA

Valine 610%RDA

Methionine 427%RDA

Cystine 366%RDA

Tryptophan 427%RDA

Threonine 915%RDA

Isoleucine 915%RDA

Which looks in line with what I was saying earlier

about every AA being provided in at least 2-5x the

amount, if not more.

If you look at all the other RDA % and multipy them by

61, you also see that outside of Vit D, and B12, every

number will way surpass the RDA/ODI at 850 calories or

Romaine Lettuce.

So, whats missing?

jeff

[Guest guest]

Side note: While vegans on CRON don't really need to worry about

protein, Vitamin B12 is something to worry about. You need to get it

either in fortified soyfoods (soymilk is very commonly supplemented

with it) or take a B12 supplement. Unwashed root vegetables likely

have some B12, but along with plenty of other stuff you don't want to

ingest! I've been vegan for 13 years now, and I have found it to go

quite well with CRON.

>

>

> > Walford's reading of the ODA/RDA

> > http://tinyurl.com/fma4k for that much romaine

> > lettuce

> > is more like 25%. This seems to be what incomplete

> > proteins do. A protein with the optimum ratio of

> > amino acids would require only 62 grams of protein,

> > but not romaine lettuce protein.

>

> as I went into in my posts...

>

> first, there are no incomplete proteins in plant

> foods. THe only one that I know of is an animal food

> and that is gelatin. Some plant foods are referred to

> as " limiting " but again, that is a misnomer based on

> old outdated information and lack of understanding of

> the amino acid pool.

>

> Second, that was 850 calories of romaine and no one is

> recommending or eating 850 as their only intake... but

> if he ate 1800 of romaine, he would way surpass all

> the amounts of AA He would ever need. It would be 131

> grams of protein from 1800 calories of romaine.

>

> At 1500 calories, it would be 113 grams of protein

> with more than enough of every amino acid.

>

> But, you dont need 1500 or 1800 calories of romaine

> but 1500 - 1800 calories of a mixture of plant foods

> would do the same. Thats the main point. You would

> get 2-3x (if not 5x) the amount of every Amino Acid

> you would need and there would be no limiting amino

> acid.

>

> As I also said in the post, and answered, Walford was

> not 100% correct about the amino acid info. THe amino

> acid scores/profiles have been updated.

>

> BUt again, this isnt about one food, its about the

> " potential " of a variety of plant foods to meet

> nutritional adequacy when consumed in the proper

> amounts.

>

> And, as I said, the info was not to promote veganism

> but to make a point about plant foods.

>

> So, if someone wanted to add in 3-4 oz of lean animal

> protein, they could... and again, all their protein

> and AA needs would be met.

>

> Clearly, when consuming an well planned intelligent

> diet, no one needs to do anymore than that., and that

> is the main point.

>

> And, as we are always discussing " published "

> endpoints.. does anyone know of any documented case of

> a vegan experiencing protein deficiency??

>

> Jeff

>