Re: I got the ball rolling

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:27:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mom2lfm@...

writes:

An alarm is going off in my head. Can't they use the test results to try and

prove he can't handle it? It might do you more harm than good.

Kathy, Liam's mom( 5)

Before you approve ANY tests, ask for a list of the assessments (by name)

they plan to use and a description of the form and purpose of each test.

Yup - they CAN try to use it against you - esp watch out for the IQ test.

There is no point in an IQ test ... he doesn't need it to qualify for services,

it won't accurately reflect his strength and weaknesses, the results will be

skewed because most tests are heavily based on language skills (unless they use

a test designed for kids with English-as-a-second-language), and can only make

him look bad.

Point out any testing done is ONLY to help write the goals and to determine

what supports and services are needed in the classroom - NOT to determine the

placement. Get a small tape player and tape every meeting.

- Becky

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:27:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mom2lfm@...

writes:

An alarm is going off in my head. Can't they use the test results to try and

prove he can't handle it? It might do you more harm than good.

There is a difference between academic testing (usually done by teachers)

and psych evals (usually done by pyschologists) Academic testing can give a

baseline of current level functioning, such as reading levels and math levels,

where pysch results can be used to show predicted peaks, potential, etc.

Kathy's point should be considered. Will an IQ test come back with a low number

and give them ammunition to say, " Oh we don't think a child with this IQ can

possibly function in a regular class, he won't benefit and will be stressed

because so much is above him .... yadda yadda yadda. "

Ask how the eval will provide educational benefit to your child. What

information will an IQ test give a teacher to help her in presenting curriculum?

If

you already know your child is delayed or has a particular IQ, why would it be

beneficial to repeat that testing? (My kid has DS, my kid has MR, it ain't

going away, why test again?)

But if you want to know where he is reading, as compared to the last time he

was tested (and personally, I think academic testing should be done at least

yearly to have a good PLOP) which will also demonstrate progress (if they use

the same test) then ask for that!

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/8/2004 9:00:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, RSYOSH@...

writes:

She asked how will Nic learn his Life

Skills? I said I will teach him life skills. I taught my older son how to do

laundry, buy things at a store, etc. She said she commended me on that-some

parents expect the school to do everything.

So, I would assure them that you want school to focus on academics and

devote their time to that part of Nic's education and that you are taking

responsibility for life skills. You certainly expect there to be times when

overlaps

can occur, as you will be working on academics at home with your child, as you

do with all your children, and they can work on particular life skills when

necessary. That's the reason you have a TEAM!

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

I don't know what sat you are in Di but check your state regs and DO NOT let

them IQ test him when they re evaluate him. they will use that number against

him. It is routinely done in psych eval. and I have seen it used as a

double edged sword. (IQ to high to get certain services, or to low to

participate

in certain programs ie. inclusion_ In NY state it is not mandatory to do this

and I would not let them. Talk about confusion, the school said it was up to

psychologist and the psychologist said it was up to the school district, when

in actuality it was up to me because it was not mandated by law. I know you

will get a lot of other great ideas here. This sight is a blessing and a joy

to all of us!! Good luck and hang in there.

Loree

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:50:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, Wildwards

writes:

>

> >> .

>

> There is a difference between academic testing (usually done by teachers)

> and psych evals (usually done by pyschologists) Academic testing can give a

> baseline of current level functioning, such as reading levels and math

> levels, where pysch results can be used to show predicted peaks, potential,

etc.

>

Cheryl,

I think both a psych and an academic test can be used to exclude. The psych

can say that he's easily distracted, doesn't interact with other children and

generally used to say a child needs a small class size. If an academic test

shows delays you can modify the curriculum,( right?) without it being used to

exclude a child from a regular environment. I'm sure they'd use any

'weaknesses' to fight inclusion if they don't agree.

Kathy, Liam's mom( 5)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/8/2004 8:00:38 PM Central Standard Time, RSYOSH@...

writes:

> I DO need school to teach how to live in a world populated by

> non-disabled people - which she can only do in a classroom full of

> non-disabled

> people (!)

>

You are so right Becky. I just had a sped teacher tell me she was going to

work with Micah in a corner so that he was not distracted by his surrounding,

DUH This is not real life. I understand that you want there to be minimal

distractions but in a classroom (as wekll as in life BIG TIME) there are always

going to be distractions so he needs to learn to re-direct his attention and

focus to the task at hand. Sometimes I scratch my head in wonderment lol!!

Loree

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/04 9:58:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mom2lfm@...

writes:

Cheryl,

I think both a psych and an academic test can be used to exclude. The psych

can say that he's easily distracted, doesn't interact with other children and

generally used to say a child needs a small class size. If an academic test

shows delays you can modify the curriculum,( right?) without it being used to

exclude a child from a regular environment. I'm sure they'd use any

'weaknesses' to fight inclusion if they don't agree.

Kathy, Liam's mom( 5)

before you approve ANY assessments you want:

1) a meeting which you TAPE - discussing the purpose of the assessments -

making clear that any assessments are strictly for the purpose of establishing

Nic's current levels, to establish appropriate IEP goals, to determine supports

& services - and NOT for placement purposes

2) school submits to you a list of proposed assessments- with descriptions &

purpose of each assessment in language " easily understood by the parent " . If

they don't provide the descriptions - HOLD OUT SIGNING UNTIL THEY DO

3) REFUSE to sign approval for any test which will not help set goals or

define needed supports.

EXAMPLE - an IQ test will do nothing to establish goals

ACHIEVEMENT tests MAY help to establish goals, if administered in a way that

reflects Nic's learning style. If they ask for output based on language or

fine motor skills that are a problem, then the tests may not reflect his true

achievements.

OT/PT - definitely want - also insist on an ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY assessment -

you want to make sure he has the property seating, pencil grips, position in

the classroom, language output devices that he needs to be successful.

Ideally you want to make sure he has dedicated access to a computer.

SPEECH & LANGUAGE - also ok - use to both make sure he gets classroom

supports AND to prove (if necessary) that achievement & IQ tests are INVALID

because

of underlying disabilities (this is in the directions the test administrator

sees but you don't - the conditions that make a test invalid.)

Also insist that the school get an INCLUSION SPECIALIST to work with the

teacher. If your district has one on staff, great. Our old school disatrict was

small & eliminated the position due to budget constraints. I pushed for and got

outside help (thru a Functional Behavior Analysis - but that's another story!)

Insist on STAFF TRAINING in Inclusion for people who will be working with

Nic. Also tell them as you get ready to write the IEP for next year, next

year's

teacher needs to be in on the meetings now, so they need to chose next year's

teacher ASAP.

The biggest reason for this - the earlier the regular classroom teacher gets

involved, the more likely he/she will buy into the process.

- Becky

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/04 10:00:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, Loree5@...

writes:

You are so right Becky. I just had a sped teacher tell me she was going to

work with Micah in a corner so that he was not distracted by his surrounding,

DUH This is not real life. I understand that you want there to be minimal

distractions but in a classroom (as wekll as in life BIG TIME) there are

always

going to be distractions so he needs to learn to re-direct his attention and

focus to the task at hand. Sometimes I scratch my head in wonderment lol!!

Loree

this is another argument that gets me so annoyed - reg ed people saying the

child needs to be in a Special Ed class where there will be " fewer

distractions. " ARGGHHH - have any of them been in a Spec Ed class lately?

Usually a high

adult - to -student ratio... and all the adults are talking! Constant

reprimanding, redirecting. Everyone has a totally different task going on, so

there's

LOTS of noise and distraction.

My son with CAPD (central auditory processing disorder, non-DS) also has

problems with distractions. For a while he used headphones in class. Also look

into a FM system (headphones directly wired to a microphone on the teacher)

used for hard of hearing kids.

- Becky

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/2004 8:58:42 AM Central Standard Time, Mom2lfm@...

writes:

> The psych

> can say that he's easily distracted, doesn't interact with other children

> and

But then you could use the argument that there are many children in Reg. Ed.

with learning disabilities and the like (ADHD) that are easily distractable.

That would be discriminatory if they were only using that to keep him out.

Micah's psych. did testing to find where he was developmentally and observed him

in the classroom. His developmental equivalent is only an indicator of where

he is at the moment, not his potential. So they could not use that to keep

him out of reg. ed. If this makes any sense at all.

Loree

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/2004 9:20:28 AM Central Standard Time, RSYOSH writes:

> My son with CAPD (central auditory processing disorder, non-DS) also has

> problems with distractions. For a while he used headphones in class. Also

> look into a FM system (headphones directly wired to a microphone on the

teacher)

> used for hard of hearing kids

We looked into these also for my son with ADHD but he has the most wonderful

teacher this year. She does lesson modifications for all her kids (this is a

regular ed classroom!!!) when I went to meet the teacher night I thought I

had died and gone to heaven. I don't think most of the parents realize what a

wonderful dedicated teacher she is to do this. And so caleb is flourishing

without the use of auditory help. Oh in a perfect world they would all be like

this sweet angel and there would be no need to keep any children out of the

regular classroom, only perhaps smaller classes!! Sigh...it's a dream really

but

we can dream can't we...

Loree

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/04 10:29:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, Loree5@...

writes:

But then you could use the argument that there are many children in Reg. Ed.

with learning disabilities and the like (ADHD) that are easily distractable.

That would be discriminatory if they were only using that to keep him out.

Micah's psych. did testing to find where he was developmentally and observed

him

in the classroom. His developmental equivalent is only an indicator of where

he is at the moment, not his potential. So they could not use that to keep

him out of reg. ed. If this makes any sense at all.

Loree

it comes down to that word " appropriate " in FAPE - the double edge swaord

that's used to fight LRE

It doesn't make sense so it's hard to argue!

- Becky

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/2004 9:38:09 AM Central Standard Time, RSYOSH@...

writes:

> It doesn't make sense so it's hard to argue!

>

>

Then it should be on both sides of the fence lol!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/04 5:54:09 PM Central Standard Time,

writes:

> She asked how will Nic learn his Life

> Skills? I said I will teach him life skills. I taught my older son how to do

> laundry, buy things at a store, etc. She said she commended me on that-some

> parents expect the school to do everything.

> So, I would assure them that you want school to focus on academics and

> devote their time to that part of Nic's education and that you are taking

> responsibility for life skills. You certainly expect there to be times when

> overlaps

> can occur, as you will be working on academics at home with your child, as

> you

> do with all your children, and they can work on particular life skills when

> necessary. That's the reason you have a TEAM!

> Cheryl in VA

let's see, life skills are things such as working in a group, getting along

with others, appropriate behavior in a public restroom, eating using

appropriate manners and skills, etc. I don't see any of these as being things

that need

a special classroom to address them.

Good luck and best wishes on this journey.

Karyn

[Guest guest]

How old is this flippin' teacher anyway? Is she from the dark ages or

something? You don't limit or label elementary school kids. How the heck

else does she think other kids learn life skills--from their parents for

heaven's sake!!! This really makes me want to blow a gasket. I don't know

how many times I've had to explain to school personnel that most kids learn

these skills at home and so will . I take it she is very

anti-inclusion. It's just plain prejudice IMHO. Perhaps you can request

that she receive training appropriate for an inclusion student. You have a

right to do so legally.

Elaine

I got the ball rolling

> I mailed my letter (after several revisions 80) ). I called the

supervisor

> of SPED K-4 and gave her a heads-up on what we were thinking. I sensed

some

> resistance (as I expected). I said Nic's re-eval and IEP was coming up in

> March. I asked if we should determine his progress then or ask for an eval

> now. She suggested I ask for an Evaluation with testing. I didn't know

there

> were different types of evals. This one would be like the one he had

before

> he started school for the first time. A psychologist would do a thorough

> eval. Whereas his re-eval would only consist of using his progress reports

> etc. I was surprised she helped me out there. She said we'll see if the

> eval determines he can " perform " in a reg ed classroom. I didn't say

> anything I just let her go. She suggested instead, to have Nic

participate

> in the reg Art and Music class there at school and I politely said we had

a

> bit more " inclusion " in mind. So I'm taking this one step at a time for

now.

> She also said They have a Learning support class at another elem. school

but

> it wouldn't be appropriate for a " Life Skills Student " . I said well if we

> move him to that, he won't BE a Life Skills student any longer.

>

> Today I called his teacher to let her know. She said she didn't think Nic

> was ready for it yet , that he was still immature. She said as a team

member

> she will have to mention that at the meeting. I said that's fine, I didn't

> expect her to lie about anything. She asked how will Nic learn his Life

> Skills? I said I will teach him life skills. I taught my older son how to

do

> laundry, buy things at a store, etc. She said she commended me on

that-some

> parents expect the school to do everything.

>

> So I guess I have my work cut out for me.

> I know we can't MAKE them agree so I'm asking you all for some good

> strategies I can use when the meeting finally happens. I need to convince

> them to at least give Nic a chance.

>

> Tomorrow I call the advocate.

>

> Di

>

>

> Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good point Kathy!! They can and they probably will if this teacher acts like

she sounds. Been there, done that and got the stinkin' t-shirt.

Elaine

Re: I got the ball rolling

In a message dated 1/8/2004 7:28:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,

drf218@... writes:

> I said Nic's re-eval and IEP was coming up in

> March. I asked if we should determine his progress then or ask for an eval

> now. She suggested I ask for an Evaluation with testing. I didn't know there

> were different types of evals. This one would be like the one he had before

> he started school for the first time. A psychologist would do a thorough

> eval. Whereas his re-eval would only consist of using his progress reports

> etc. I was surprised she helped me out there

An alarm is going off in my head. Can't they use the test results to try and

prove he can't handle it? It might do you more harm than good.

Kathy, Liam's mom( 5)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:47:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, RSYOSH@...

writes:

> An alarm is going off in my head. Can't they use the test results to try

> and

> prove he can't handle it? It might do you more harm than good.

> Kathy, Liam's mom( 5)

> Before you approve ANY tests, ask for a list of the assessments (by name)

> they plan to use and a description of the form and purpose of each test.

>

> Yup - they CAN try to use it against you - esp watch out for the IQ test.

> There is no point in an IQ test ... he doesn't need it to qualify for

> services,

> it won't accurately reflect his strength and weaknesses, the results will be

>

> skewed because most tests are heavily based on language skills (unless they

> use

> a test designed for kids with English-as-a-second-language), and can only

> make

> him look bad.

>

> Point out any testing done is ONLY to help write the goals and to determine

> what supports and services are needed in the classroom - NOT to determine

> the

> placement. Get a small tape player and tape every meeting.

>

> - Becky

I would not allow any testing and question why any tests are necessary. In

our district they allow evaluations based on teacher and parent observation.

What is the purpose of testing to see if he can perform at a first grade level

when it does not matter if he has an IEP? Good luck.

Donna

[Guest guest]

Hi,

My name is and I have been reading this list for a bit. I have an 11

yr old with Ds. It is funny, this one hits home. My son's class goes to a

small supermarket next to his school every day for a break and get these

" Life Skills " too. Then they make their afternoon snack. He has 6 kids in

his class with varying Multi handicaps (Forgive me if that is not

politically correct)one teacher and 2 aids. One day the one aid saw us at

our grocery store and was amazed to see Luke scanning our groceries at the

serve yourself isle! She just could not believe it.

(Mom to Luke 11 DS)

[Guest guest]

Talk about distractions. 's classrooms were usually pretty

informal, small classes with one teacher. occasionally an aid. Anyway he was

about 10 or 11 when I took a friend to visit his school. This was not a special

ed. situation, they had mostly regular kids. when we got to 's class

the t eacher was out of the room momentarily, and it was chaos. I'm sure you

can remember how that was. But sat in the middle of it doing his

math. Talk about distractions!! My friend was really

impressed. So was I but not surprised. Jessie

[Guest guest]

If you opt for any testing whatever, be sure to obtain all the subtest

scores and get the raw as well as standard and percentile scores.

Judi HL

Re: I got the ball rolling

In a message dated 1/9/2004 7:47:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, RSYOSH@...

writes:

> An alarm is going off in my head. Can't they use the test results to try

> and

> prove he can't handle it? It might do you more harm than good.

> Kathy, Liam's mom( 5)

> Before you approve ANY tests, ask for a list of the assessments (by name)

> they plan to use and a description of the form and purpose of each test.

>

> Yup - they CAN try to use it against you - esp watch out for the IQ test.

> There is no point in an IQ test ... he doesn't need it to qualify for

> services,

> it won't accurately reflect his strength and weaknesses, the results will

be

>

> skewed because most tests are heavily based on language skills (unless

they

> use

> a test designed for kids with English-as-a-second-language), and can only

> make

> him look bad.

>

> Point out any testing done is ONLY to help write the goals and to

determine

> what supports and services are needed in the classroom - NOT to determine

> the

> placement. Get a small tape player and tape every meeting.

>

> - Becky

I would not allow any testing and question why any tests are necessary. In

our district they allow evaluations based on teacher and parent observation.

What is the purpose of testing to see if he can perform at a first grade

level

when it does not matter if he has an IEP? Good luck.

Donna

[Guest guest]

we have an FM system in our classroom, but no one is directly hook into

it...the teacher wears a microphone, she looks remarkably like Madonna...and

there are four speakers placed around the room directed right at the middle of

the room, that way all the kids benefit from it, because let's face it by

definition isn't everyone affected by A.D.D. to a certain extent? jennie--- On

Fri 01/09, & lt; RSYOSH@... & gt; wrote:From: [mailto: RSYOSH@...]To:

Loree5@..., drf218@..., @...: Fri, 9 Jan

2004 10:20:28 ESTSubject: Re: I got the ball rollingIn a message

dated 1/9/04 10:00:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, Loree5@... writes:You are so

right Becky. I just had a sped teacher tell me she was going to work with Micah

in a corner so that he was not distracted by his surrounding, DUH This is not

real life. I understand that you want there to be minimal distractions but in a

classroom (as wekll as in life BIG TIME) there are always going to be

distractions so he needs to learn to re-direct his attention and focus to the

task at hand. Sometimes I scratch my head in wonderment lol!!Loreethis is

another argument that gets me so annoyed - reg ed people saying the child needs

to be in a Special Ed class where there will be " fewer distractions. " ARGGHHH -

have any of them been in a Spec Ed class lately? Usually a high adult - to

-student ratio... and all the adults are talking! Constant reprimanding,

redirecting. Everyone has a totally different task going on, so there's LOTS of

noise and distraction.My son with CAPD (central auditory processing disorder,

non-DS) also has problems with distractions. For a while he used headphones in

class. Also look into a FM system (headphones directly wired to a microphone on

the teacher) used for hard of hearing kids.- Becky[Non-text portions of this

message have been removed]Click reply to all for messages to go to the list.

Just hit reply for messages to go to the sender of the message.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/04 7:20:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lisaschulze@... writes:

Hi,

My name is and I have been reading this list for a bit. I have an 11

yr old with Ds. It is funny, this one hits home. My son's class goes to a

small supermarket next to his school every day for a break and get these

" Life Skills " too. Then they make their afternoon snack. He has 6 kids in

his class with varying Multi handicaps (Forgive me if that is not

politically correct)one teacher and 2 aids. One day the one aid saw us at

our grocery store and was amazed to see Luke scanning our groceries at the

serve yourself isle! She just could not believe it.

(Mom to Luke 11 DS)

just goes to show - the " Life Skills " class has lower expextations than you

do (!)

- Becky

[Guest guest]

I tried to send a personal welcome to you but it came back to me. It

bounced.

Elaine

Re: I got the ball rolling

> Hi,

> My name is and I have been reading this list for a bit. I have an 11

> yr old with Ds. It is funny, this one hits home. My son's class goes to

a

> small supermarket next to his school every day for a break and get these

> " Life Skills " too. Then they make their afternoon snack. He has 6 kids

in

> his class with varying Multi handicaps (Forgive me if that is not

> politically correct)one teacher and 2 aids. One day the one aid saw us at

> our grocery store and was amazed to see Luke scanning our groceries at the

> serve yourself isle! She just could not believe it.

>

> (Mom to Luke 11 DS)

>

>

>

> Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Elaine. I don't know why it bounced back. My personal e-mail is

lisaschulze@...

I live east of Cleveland Ohio. My son is 11 yrs with Down Syndrome. I have

posted a couple pictures on the upsNDowns picture page. I made an album and

named it Luke's pics it think.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/15/04 8:21:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,

drf218@... writes:

Judi,

This is pretty new to me. Once I get that info, what do I do with it?

Di

If you opt for any testing whatever, be sure to obtain all the subtest

scores and get the raw as well as standard and percentile scores.

Judi HL

It takes someone pretty knowledgeable in how to interpret subtests - usually

beyond the scope of a school psychologist.

If the school pushes for an IQ test, run it by here first & do some research

before giving them a reply. Most IQ tests are going to be inappropriate. We

lucked out at our new school - the school psychologist is excited to do

something called a Dynamic Assessment which she was trained in years ago by the

Isreali man who assessed Burke years ago and got his academic program on

track - her purpose in doing it is NOT to get an Iq " score " but to determine

's strengths and weaknesses so materials can be adapted specifically to

learning style. Also she informed me that there are assessments designed for

kids

who don't speak English so are not language dependent. But this is unusual -

most schools use either the WISC or SB (Stanford Binet) which are heavily

language dependent and include scores based on how FAST you respond - totally

inappropriate for a child with language processing issues.

- Becky

[Guest guest]

His old ER is 2 years old, he barely was able to speak then. When compared to

what he's doing now, it's a major improvement.

Di

Re: I got the ball rolling

In a message dated 1/8/2004 7:28:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,

drf218@... writes:

I said Nic's re-eval and IEP was coming up in

March. I asked if we should determine his progress then or ask for an eval

now. She suggested I ask for an Evaluation with testing. I didn't know there

were different types of evals. This one would be like the one he had before

he started school for the first time. A psychologist would do a thorough

eval. Whereas his re-eval would only consist of using his progress reports

etc. I was surprised she helped me out there

An alarm is going off in my head. Can't they use the test results to try and

prove he can't handle it? It might do you more harm than good.

Kathy, Liam's mom( 5)