Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Kayce: this reference is ancient! Please use the most current references as noted in our new rules for posting. A reference that is 16 years old is an eternity in the growing field of nutrition. on 1/31/2006 12:38 AM, kayce cover at k_cover@... wrote: PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat Enzyme Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from Sites Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise Extensive Sequence Conservation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Kayce: this reference is ancient! Please use the most current references as noted in our new rules for posting. A reference that is 16 years old is an eternity in the growing field of nutrition. on 1/31/2006 12:38 AM, kayce cover at k_cover@... wrote: PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat Enzyme Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from Sites Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise Extensive Sequence Conservation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi Kayce: Well I do not understand the significance of your reference. It covers material I am not familiar with. But as we all know a calorie is a measure of energy. If two individuals start out at the same weight, ingest the same amount of energy (calories), absorb the same proportion of them from the intestine and burn the same amount of energy in the form of exercise, and one of them deposits less body fat than the other, THEN WHERE DOES THE ENERGY THEY DID NOT DEPOSIT AS BODY FAT DISAPPEAR TO? As you know, whatever differences they may have in the way they metabolize things, whatever hormomal differences they may have, energy does not magically appear or disappear. It MUST always all be accounted for. Perhaps there was a difference in body temperature - if so then the investigators need to show that it was large enough, via transmission of heat from in the body to outside, to account for the difference. (But the opposite has been shown, that the slim people, us for example, have a lower, not higher, body temperature) Perhaps by loss of lean body mass - in which case the investigators need to demonstrate where it was the LBM was lost. Or perhaps by some other mysterious means? But please tell me where and how, in your opinion, does the energy not deposited as fat in the slimmer individual disappear to? I am not saying that some people may, perhaps, have a tendency, for whatever reason, to deposit more or less fat, I am asking how you account for the apparent energy discrepancy? If anyone ever does manage to provide clear evidence that energy can just appear or disappear, as you seem to be suggesting, ('appear' in the individual who becomes fat, 'disappear' in the case of the subject who remains slim) then absolutely for certain they will get a Nobel prize. The reason is that it would turn the very foundations of science on their ear, to a greater extent than they have ever been turned on their ear in the whole of history. Sincerely I am open to listening to your answer to this. People in equi-caloric circumstances cannot deposit more fat without the energy for that purpose coming from somewhere. Where, please? Rodney. --- In , " kayce cover " <k_cover@h...> wrote: > > Hi Rodney, > > So, I guess you suspect the mice of sneaking into the refrigerator at night? > > A calorie is determined by a single way of oxidizing a fuel source. There > is more than one way to metabolize fuel. A pile of food burned in a black > box may not tell us how a body oxidizes that same fuel. It is just an > imperfect way of standardizing an aspect of food value. > > Bela Szepesi, USDA, is a carbohydrate metobolics researcher who was my > biochem prof. A citation/abstract follows, of one verified point of > diversity. He explained the difference in the way high fructose corn syrup > is metabolized and stored in the body contrasted to regular sugar. He told > his class in 1990 that it was expected that the diseases of the coming > generation would be obesity, fatty liver and diabetes - just from the > prevalence of high fructose corn syrup on American foods (not from an > increase of calories). It appears he was correct. Both high fructose corn > syrup and alcohol are metabolised in the liver and deposit fat directly into > the liver, which is different than sugar. All calories are not equal. > > And even if they were, they are not handled equally by all bodies. You can > feed a bull dog and a grey hound exactly the same way, and you still get a > bull dog and a grey hound. People who work out on weights don't get the > same results. People who go to the same schools don't get the same results. > We are a myriad of variations on a theme. > > If we both start out with a cup of water,and neithers spills nor drinks > their water, and you walk around with your cup open, and I put a lid on > mine, at the end of the day, I will probably have more water than you do. > It has nothing to do with the water. It has all to do with how we handled > the water. > > These studies are ellucidating some of the variables which are making sense > out of a situation not satisfactorily explained by the 'facts', as is noted > in the studies. You may doubt their validity, but I have been responsible > for managing the weights of lots of animals, and I have been wondering when > science would catch up to reality on this issue. Finally they are. > > PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 > Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences > Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat Enzyme > Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from Sites > Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise Extensive > Sequence Conservation > > Jeffery, Jane Soderling-Barros, Lynda A. Murray, J. Hansen, > Bela Szepesi, and Hans Jornvall > > > > The NH2-terminal region of rat liver glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (EC > 1.1.1.49) is shown to differ radically from a reported amino acid sequence > for the fruit fly enzyme and from one for the human enzyme. The results > indicate considerable differences in the translational start point. However, > a close relationship with another reported sequence for the human enzyme is > established, now showing agreement between an indirectly deduced and a > directly analyzed NH2-terminal structure of this enzyme type. The results > provide evidence of one structural motif common to mammalian species but > also suggest that genetic inconstancy 5' to, or at the start of, the region > coding for the enzyme protein could be a source of intra- and interspecies > diversity. This is of interest in relation to the large number of genetic > variants of human glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. > > > Best, > Kayce > > > From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> > Hi folks: > > Well count me skeptical on this for now. > > Are we logically to conclude from this that those who are able to > restrain their food intake and maintain a very healthy weight are by > definition sick because the only way anyone should be expected to be > able to control how much they eat is if they do not have the right > flora in their intestines to cause the absorption of all the nutients? > > And is it only the obese people who are well, because their > intestines are so much more efficient? > > Or are their body temperatures much lower than those of the very > healthy weight people? I think the opposite is true. Most people on > CR have lower body temperatures, not higher temperatures. > > Has it been shown that the feces of very-healthy-weight people are > loaded with unabsorbed calories? Has it been shown they have lower > body temperatures? I think these things need to be demonstrated > before I will be able to take this seriously. > ------ > And as for the claimed increase in adipose, has it been demonstrated > that in these people who add a lot of adipose everything > else ........... bone, organs, brain etc. are reduced in size > when these people are on iso-caloric diets and compared with people > who do not have the adenovirus? > > Calories do not just appear out of, or disappear into, the air. If > they are eating the same amount and they have added a lot more fat > then where did they get the calories from to do that? > ------ > Or is the argument that these adenoviruses make people uncontrollably > and irresistably hungry? So that it is not their fault they eat > more? Or is the excuse that the virus destroys a person's ability to > discipline the amount they eat? > > Or are these people simply no different from the healthy weight > people, except that they voluntarily choose to eat more? > ------ > It seems to me that none of these studies so far go anywhere remotely > close to providing rational, and credible, answers to the above > questions. > > Rodney. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi Kayce: Well I do not understand the significance of your reference. It covers material I am not familiar with. But as we all know a calorie is a measure of energy. If two individuals start out at the same weight, ingest the same amount of energy (calories), absorb the same proportion of them from the intestine and burn the same amount of energy in the form of exercise, and one of them deposits less body fat than the other, THEN WHERE DOES THE ENERGY THEY DID NOT DEPOSIT AS BODY FAT DISAPPEAR TO? As you know, whatever differences they may have in the way they metabolize things, whatever hormomal differences they may have, energy does not magically appear or disappear. It MUST always all be accounted for. Perhaps there was a difference in body temperature - if so then the investigators need to show that it was large enough, via transmission of heat from in the body to outside, to account for the difference. (But the opposite has been shown, that the slim people, us for example, have a lower, not higher, body temperature) Perhaps by loss of lean body mass - in which case the investigators need to demonstrate where it was the LBM was lost. Or perhaps by some other mysterious means? But please tell me where and how, in your opinion, does the energy not deposited as fat in the slimmer individual disappear to? I am not saying that some people may, perhaps, have a tendency, for whatever reason, to deposit more or less fat, I am asking how you account for the apparent energy discrepancy? If anyone ever does manage to provide clear evidence that energy can just appear or disappear, as you seem to be suggesting, ('appear' in the individual who becomes fat, 'disappear' in the case of the subject who remains slim) then absolutely for certain they will get a Nobel prize. The reason is that it would turn the very foundations of science on their ear, to a greater extent than they have ever been turned on their ear in the whole of history. Sincerely I am open to listening to your answer to this. People in equi-caloric circumstances cannot deposit more fat without the energy for that purpose coming from somewhere. Where, please? Rodney. --- In , " kayce cover " <k_cover@h...> wrote: > > Hi Rodney, > > So, I guess you suspect the mice of sneaking into the refrigerator at night? > > A calorie is determined by a single way of oxidizing a fuel source. There > is more than one way to metabolize fuel. A pile of food burned in a black > box may not tell us how a body oxidizes that same fuel. It is just an > imperfect way of standardizing an aspect of food value. > > Bela Szepesi, USDA, is a carbohydrate metobolics researcher who was my > biochem prof. A citation/abstract follows, of one verified point of > diversity. He explained the difference in the way high fructose corn syrup > is metabolized and stored in the body contrasted to regular sugar. He told > his class in 1990 that it was expected that the diseases of the coming > generation would be obesity, fatty liver and diabetes - just from the > prevalence of high fructose corn syrup on American foods (not from an > increase of calories). It appears he was correct. Both high fructose corn > syrup and alcohol are metabolised in the liver and deposit fat directly into > the liver, which is different than sugar. All calories are not equal. > > And even if they were, they are not handled equally by all bodies. You can > feed a bull dog and a grey hound exactly the same way, and you still get a > bull dog and a grey hound. People who work out on weights don't get the > same results. People who go to the same schools don't get the same results. > We are a myriad of variations on a theme. > > If we both start out with a cup of water,and neithers spills nor drinks > their water, and you walk around with your cup open, and I put a lid on > mine, at the end of the day, I will probably have more water than you do. > It has nothing to do with the water. It has all to do with how we handled > the water. > > These studies are ellucidating some of the variables which are making sense > out of a situation not satisfactorily explained by the 'facts', as is noted > in the studies. You may doubt their validity, but I have been responsible > for managing the weights of lots of animals, and I have been wondering when > science would catch up to reality on this issue. Finally they are. > > PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 > Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences > Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat Enzyme > Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from Sites > Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise Extensive > Sequence Conservation > > Jeffery, Jane Soderling-Barros, Lynda A. Murray, J. Hansen, > Bela Szepesi, and Hans Jornvall > > > > The NH2-terminal region of rat liver glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (EC > 1.1.1.49) is shown to differ radically from a reported amino acid sequence > for the fruit fly enzyme and from one for the human enzyme. The results > indicate considerable differences in the translational start point. However, > a close relationship with another reported sequence for the human enzyme is > established, now showing agreement between an indirectly deduced and a > directly analyzed NH2-terminal structure of this enzyme type. The results > provide evidence of one structural motif common to mammalian species but > also suggest that genetic inconstancy 5' to, or at the start of, the region > coding for the enzyme protein could be a source of intra- and interspecies > diversity. This is of interest in relation to the large number of genetic > variants of human glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. > > > Best, > Kayce > > > From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> > Hi folks: > > Well count me skeptical on this for now. > > Are we logically to conclude from this that those who are able to > restrain their food intake and maintain a very healthy weight are by > definition sick because the only way anyone should be expected to be > able to control how much they eat is if they do not have the right > flora in their intestines to cause the absorption of all the nutients? > > And is it only the obese people who are well, because their > intestines are so much more efficient? > > Or are their body temperatures much lower than those of the very > healthy weight people? I think the opposite is true. Most people on > CR have lower body temperatures, not higher temperatures. > > Has it been shown that the feces of very-healthy-weight people are > loaded with unabsorbed calories? Has it been shown they have lower > body temperatures? I think these things need to be demonstrated > before I will be able to take this seriously. > ------ > And as for the claimed increase in adipose, has it been demonstrated > that in these people who add a lot of adipose everything > else ........... bone, organs, brain etc. are reduced in size > when these people are on iso-caloric diets and compared with people > who do not have the adenovirus? > > Calories do not just appear out of, or disappear into, the air. If > they are eating the same amount and they have added a lot more fat > then where did they get the calories from to do that? > ------ > Or is the argument that these adenoviruses make people uncontrollably > and irresistably hungry? So that it is not their fault they eat > more? Or is the excuse that the virus destroys a person's ability to > discipline the amount they eat? > > Or are these people simply no different from the healthy weight > people, except that they voluntarily choose to eat more? > ------ > It seems to me that none of these studies so far go anywhere remotely > close to providing rational, and credible, answers to the above > questions. > > Rodney. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi Kayce: I suppose there is another possibility. Can it be shown that the weight, volume, bulk, of obese people, is not composed of energy- containing material? If it could be shown that the excess weight of obese people is not energy-containing fat but, say, almost entirely water, then one could imagine that a person could be large because of a dramatically increased body water content, without increased energy intake. But does anyone believe this? Is there evidence of it? I realize that certain conditions, medications and foods (salt, wine, tea for example) cause the body to retain larger or smaller amounts of water. But I am not aware that anyone is claiming this is what is going on in obesity. Rodney. > > > > Hi Rodney, > > > > So, I guess you suspect the mice of sneaking into the refrigerator > at night? > > > > A calorie is determined by a single way of oxidizing a fuel > source. There > > is more than one way to metabolize fuel. A pile of food burned in > a black > > box may not tell us how a body oxidizes that same fuel. It is just > an > > imperfect way of standardizing an aspect of food value. > > > > Bela Szepesi, USDA, is a carbohydrate metobolics researcher who was > my > > biochem prof. A citation/abstract follows, of one verified point of > > diversity. He explained the difference in the way high fructose > corn syrup > > is metabolized and stored in the body contrasted to regular sugar. > He told > > his class in 1990 that it was expected that the diseases of the > coming > > generation would be obesity, fatty liver and diabetes - just from > the > > prevalence of high fructose corn syrup on American foods (not from > an > > increase of calories). It appears he was correct. Both high > fructose corn > > syrup and alcohol are metabolised in the liver and deposit fat > directly into > > the liver, which is different than sugar. All calories are not > equal. > > > > And even if they were, they are not handled equally by all bodies. > You can > > feed a bull dog and a grey hound exactly the same way, and you > still get a > > bull dog and a grey hound. People who work out on weights don't > get the > > same results. People who go to the same schools don't get the same > results. > > We are a myriad of variations on a theme. > > > > If we both start out with a cup of water,and neithers spills nor > drinks > > their water, and you walk around with your cup open, and I put a > lid on > > mine, at the end of the day, I will probably have more water than > you do. > > It has nothing to do with the water. It has all to do with how we > handled > > the water. > > > > These studies are ellucidating some of the variables which are > making sense > > out of a situation not satisfactorily explained by the 'facts', as > is noted > > in the studies. You may doubt their validity, but I have been > responsible > > for managing the weights of lots of animals, and I have been > wondering when > > science would catch up to reality on this issue. Finally they are. > > > > PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 > > Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences > > Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat > Enzyme > > Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from > Sites > > Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise > Extensive > > Sequence Conservation > > > > Jeffery, Jane Soderling-Barros, Lynda A. Murray, J. > Hansen, > > Bela Szepesi, and Hans Jornvall > > > > > > > > The NH2-terminal region of rat liver glucose-6-phosphate > dehydrogenase (EC > > 1.1.1.49) is shown to differ radically from a reported amino acid > sequence > > for the fruit fly enzyme and from one for the human enzyme. The > results > > indicate considerable differences in the translational start point. > However, > > a close relationship with another reported sequence for the human > enzyme is > > established, now showing agreement between an indirectly deduced > and a > > directly analyzed NH2-terminal structure of this enzyme type. The > results > > provide evidence of one structural motif common to mammalian > species but > > also suggest that genetic inconstancy 5' to, or at the start of, > the region > > coding for the enzyme protein could be a source of intra- and > interspecies > > diversity. This is of interest in relation to the large number of > genetic > > variants of human glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. > > > > > > Best, > > Kayce > > > > > > From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> > > Hi folks: > > > > Well count me skeptical on this for now. > > > > Are we logically to conclude from this that those who are able to > > restrain their food intake and maintain a very healthy weight are by > > definition sick because the only way anyone should be expected to be > > able to control how much they eat is if they do not have the right > > flora in their intestines to cause the absorption of all the > nutients? > > > > And is it only the obese people who are well, because their > > intestines are so much more efficient? > > > > Or are their body temperatures much lower than those of the very > > healthy weight people? I think the opposite is true. Most people > on > > CR have lower body temperatures, not higher temperatures. > > > > Has it been shown that the feces of very-healthy-weight people are > > loaded with unabsorbed calories? Has it been shown they have lower > > body temperatures? I think these things need to be demonstrated > > before I will be able to take this seriously. > > ------ > > And as for the claimed increase in adipose, has it been demonstrated > > that in these people who add a lot of adipose everything > > else ........... bone, organs, brain etc. are reduced in size > > when these people are on iso-caloric diets and compared with people > > who do not have the adenovirus? > > > > Calories do not just appear out of, or disappear into, the air. If > > they are eating the same amount and they have added a lot more fat > > then where did they get the calories from to do that? > > ------ > > Or is the argument that these adenoviruses make people > uncontrollably > > and irresistably hungry? So that it is not their fault they eat > > more? Or is the excuse that the virus destroys a person's ability > to > > discipline the amount they eat? > > > > Or are these people simply no different from the healthy weight > > people, except that they voluntarily choose to eat more? > > ------ > > It seems to me that none of these studies so far go anywhere > remotely > > close to providing rational, and credible, answers to the above > > questions. > > > > Rodney. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi Kayce: I suppose there is another possibility. Can it be shown that the weight, volume, bulk, of obese people, is not composed of energy- containing material? If it could be shown that the excess weight of obese people is not energy-containing fat but, say, almost entirely water, then one could imagine that a person could be large because of a dramatically increased body water content, without increased energy intake. But does anyone believe this? Is there evidence of it? I realize that certain conditions, medications and foods (salt, wine, tea for example) cause the body to retain larger or smaller amounts of water. But I am not aware that anyone is claiming this is what is going on in obesity. Rodney. > > > > Hi Rodney, > > > > So, I guess you suspect the mice of sneaking into the refrigerator > at night? > > > > A calorie is determined by a single way of oxidizing a fuel > source. There > > is more than one way to metabolize fuel. A pile of food burned in > a black > > box may not tell us how a body oxidizes that same fuel. It is just > an > > imperfect way of standardizing an aspect of food value. > > > > Bela Szepesi, USDA, is a carbohydrate metobolics researcher who was > my > > biochem prof. A citation/abstract follows, of one verified point of > > diversity. He explained the difference in the way high fructose > corn syrup > > is metabolized and stored in the body contrasted to regular sugar. > He told > > his class in 1990 that it was expected that the diseases of the > coming > > generation would be obesity, fatty liver and diabetes - just from > the > > prevalence of high fructose corn syrup on American foods (not from > an > > increase of calories). It appears he was correct. Both high > fructose corn > > syrup and alcohol are metabolised in the liver and deposit fat > directly into > > the liver, which is different than sugar. All calories are not > equal. > > > > And even if they were, they are not handled equally by all bodies. > You can > > feed a bull dog and a grey hound exactly the same way, and you > still get a > > bull dog and a grey hound. People who work out on weights don't > get the > > same results. People who go to the same schools don't get the same > results. > > We are a myriad of variations on a theme. > > > > If we both start out with a cup of water,and neithers spills nor > drinks > > their water, and you walk around with your cup open, and I put a > lid on > > mine, at the end of the day, I will probably have more water than > you do. > > It has nothing to do with the water. It has all to do with how we > handled > > the water. > > > > These studies are ellucidating some of the variables which are > making sense > > out of a situation not satisfactorily explained by the 'facts', as > is noted > > in the studies. You may doubt their validity, but I have been > responsible > > for managing the weights of lots of animals, and I have been > wondering when > > science would catch up to reality on this issue. Finally they are. > > > > PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 > > Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences > > Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat > Enzyme > > Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from > Sites > > Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise > Extensive > > Sequence Conservation > > > > Jeffery, Jane Soderling-Barros, Lynda A. Murray, J. > Hansen, > > Bela Szepesi, and Hans Jornvall > > > > > > > > The NH2-terminal region of rat liver glucose-6-phosphate > dehydrogenase (EC > > 1.1.1.49) is shown to differ radically from a reported amino acid > sequence > > for the fruit fly enzyme and from one for the human enzyme. The > results > > indicate considerable differences in the translational start point. > However, > > a close relationship with another reported sequence for the human > enzyme is > > established, now showing agreement between an indirectly deduced > and a > > directly analyzed NH2-terminal structure of this enzyme type. The > results > > provide evidence of one structural motif common to mammalian > species but > > also suggest that genetic inconstancy 5' to, or at the start of, > the region > > coding for the enzyme protein could be a source of intra- and > interspecies > > diversity. This is of interest in relation to the large number of > genetic > > variants of human glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. > > > > > > Best, > > Kayce > > > > > > From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> > > Hi folks: > > > > Well count me skeptical on this for now. > > > > Are we logically to conclude from this that those who are able to > > restrain their food intake and maintain a very healthy weight are by > > definition sick because the only way anyone should be expected to be > > able to control how much they eat is if they do not have the right > > flora in their intestines to cause the absorption of all the > nutients? > > > > And is it only the obese people who are well, because their > > intestines are so much more efficient? > > > > Or are their body temperatures much lower than those of the very > > healthy weight people? I think the opposite is true. Most people > on > > CR have lower body temperatures, not higher temperatures. > > > > Has it been shown that the feces of very-healthy-weight people are > > loaded with unabsorbed calories? Has it been shown they have lower > > body temperatures? I think these things need to be demonstrated > > before I will be able to take this seriously. > > ------ > > And as for the claimed increase in adipose, has it been demonstrated > > that in these people who add a lot of adipose everything > > else ........... bone, organs, brain etc. are reduced in size > > when these people are on iso-caloric diets and compared with people > > who do not have the adenovirus? > > > > Calories do not just appear out of, or disappear into, the air. If > > they are eating the same amount and they have added a lot more fat > > then where did they get the calories from to do that? > > ------ > > Or is the argument that these adenoviruses make people > uncontrollably > > and irresistably hungry? So that it is not their fault they eat > > more? Or is the excuse that the virus destroys a person's ability > to > > discipline the amount they eat? > > > > Or are these people simply no different from the healthy weight > > people, except that they voluntarily choose to eat more? > > ------ > > It seems to me that none of these studies so far go anywhere > remotely > > close to providing rational, and credible, answers to the above > > questions. > > > > Rodney. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 > > Hi Kayce: > > I suppose there is another possibility. Can it be shown that the > weight, volume, bulk, of obese people, is not composed of energy- > containing material? > --------------------- Lots of studies of body composition in obesity. Bioimpedance is used, DXA, and deuterated water. Here is one such study: Not surprisingly, most of the extra body weight of obese persons is fat, and not water. This study did find, however, that total body water was 45% of weight in obese women as opposed to 39% in lean women. This is interesting, so you are partially correct. This may explain the very large initial weight loss that some obese people undergo when going on any sort of a diet. ********************** Eur J Clin Nutr. 2005 Feb;59(2):155-60. Body water distribution in severe obesity and its assessment from eight-polar bioelectrical impedance analysis. Sartorio A, Malavolti M, Agosti F, Marinone PG, Caiti O, Battistini N, Bedogni G. Malattie Metaboliche III e Laboratorio di Endocrinologia Sperimentale, Istituto Auxologico Italiano IRCCS, Piancavallo, Italy. OBJECTIVE: To measure body water distribution and to evaluate the accuracy of eight-polar bioelectrical impedance analysis (BIA) for the assessment of total body water (TBW) and extracellular water (ECW) in severe obesity. DESIGN: Cross-sectional study. SETTING: Obesity clinic. SUBJECTS: In all, 75 women aged 18-66 y, 25 with body mass index (BMI) between 19.1 and 29.9 kg/m(2) (ie not obese), 25 with BMI between 30.0 and 39.9 kg/m(2) (ie class I and II obese), and 25 with BMI between 40.0 and 48.2 kg/m(2) (ie class III obese). METHODS: TBW and ECW were measured by (2)H(2)O and Br dilution. Body resistance ® was obtained by summing the resistances of arms, trunk and legs as measured by eight-polar BIA (InBody 3.0, Biospace, Seoul, Korea). The resistance index at a frequency of x kHz (RI(x)) was calculated as height (2)/R(x). RESULTS: ECW : TBW was similar in women with class III (46+/-3%, mean+/-s.d.) and class I-II obesity (45+/-3%) but higher than in nonobese women (39+/-3%, P<0.05). In a random subsample of 37 subjects, RI(500) explained 82% of TBW variance (P<0.0001) and cross-validation of the obtained algorithm in the remaining 38 subjects gave a percent root mean square error (RMSE%) of 5% and a pure error (PE) of 2.1 l. In the same subjects, RI(5) explained 87% of ECW variance (P<0.0001) and cross-validation of the obtained algorithm gave a RMSE% of 8% and a PE of 1.4 l. The contribution of weight and BMI to the prediction of TBW and ECW was nil or negligible on practical grounds. CONCLUSIONS: ECW : TBW is similar in women with class I-II and class III obesity up to BMI values of 48.2 kg/m(2). Eight-polar BIA offers accurate estimates of TBW and ECW in women with a wide range of BMI (19.1-48.2 kg/m(2)) without the need of population-specific formulae. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 > > Hi Kayce: > > I suppose there is another possibility. Can it be shown that the > weight, volume, bulk, of obese people, is not composed of energy- > containing material? > --------------------- Lots of studies of body composition in obesity. Bioimpedance is used, DXA, and deuterated water. Here is one such study: Not surprisingly, most of the extra body weight of obese persons is fat, and not water. This study did find, however, that total body water was 45% of weight in obese women as opposed to 39% in lean women. This is interesting, so you are partially correct. This may explain the very large initial weight loss that some obese people undergo when going on any sort of a diet. ********************** Eur J Clin Nutr. 2005 Feb;59(2):155-60. Body water distribution in severe obesity and its assessment from eight-polar bioelectrical impedance analysis. Sartorio A, Malavolti M, Agosti F, Marinone PG, Caiti O, Battistini N, Bedogni G. Malattie Metaboliche III e Laboratorio di Endocrinologia Sperimentale, Istituto Auxologico Italiano IRCCS, Piancavallo, Italy. OBJECTIVE: To measure body water distribution and to evaluate the accuracy of eight-polar bioelectrical impedance analysis (BIA) for the assessment of total body water (TBW) and extracellular water (ECW) in severe obesity. DESIGN: Cross-sectional study. SETTING: Obesity clinic. SUBJECTS: In all, 75 women aged 18-66 y, 25 with body mass index (BMI) between 19.1 and 29.9 kg/m(2) (ie not obese), 25 with BMI between 30.0 and 39.9 kg/m(2) (ie class I and II obese), and 25 with BMI between 40.0 and 48.2 kg/m(2) (ie class III obese). METHODS: TBW and ECW were measured by (2)H(2)O and Br dilution. Body resistance ® was obtained by summing the resistances of arms, trunk and legs as measured by eight-polar BIA (InBody 3.0, Biospace, Seoul, Korea). The resistance index at a frequency of x kHz (RI(x)) was calculated as height (2)/R(x). RESULTS: ECW : TBW was similar in women with class III (46+/-3%, mean+/-s.d.) and class I-II obesity (45+/-3%) but higher than in nonobese women (39+/-3%, P<0.05). In a random subsample of 37 subjects, RI(500) explained 82% of TBW variance (P<0.0001) and cross-validation of the obtained algorithm in the remaining 38 subjects gave a percent root mean square error (RMSE%) of 5% and a pure error (PE) of 2.1 l. In the same subjects, RI(5) explained 87% of ECW variance (P<0.0001) and cross-validation of the obtained algorithm gave a RMSE% of 8% and a PE of 1.4 l. The contribution of weight and BMI to the prediction of TBW and ECW was nil or negligible on practical grounds. CONCLUSIONS: ECW : TBW is similar in women with class I-II and class III obesity up to BMI values of 48.2 kg/m(2). Eight-polar BIA offers accurate estimates of TBW and ECW in women with a wide range of BMI (19.1-48.2 kg/m(2)) without the need of population-specific formulae. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Rodney wrote: > Hi Kayce: > > I suppose there is another possibility. Can it be shown that the > weight, volume, bulk, of obese people, is not composed of energy- > containing material? > How about this: under some circumstances, the kind and quantity of excretions from the body can change. For instance, a person on a ketogenic diet (no carbs) breaks down fat into ketone bodies (acetone, etc.) that pass through the blood-brain barrier and can be used to run the brain without glucose. In that case, about 100 calories worth of ketone bodies can be urinated daily. Regulation of body temperature isn't just a matter of how much heat your body produces, but how much it retains. Body temperature regulation involves the control of peripheral circulation AND the perception that your body is cold, so that you put more clothes on. For instance, when I have a fever, I often want to wear a heavy coat or be under a lot of blankets, and that's one of the ways that my temperature regulation system gets my temperature up. Along the lines you mention, it's also true that ketogenic diets can affect water retention. Sometimes people " lose " 10 pounds in a few days on the Atkins diet, but those pounds are mostly water, much of that bound up in the process of glycogen storage. I've known more than one alternative health practitioner that insists that water retention is a big factor in obesity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Rodney wrote: > Hi Kayce: > > I suppose there is another possibility. Can it be shown that the > weight, volume, bulk, of obese people, is not composed of energy- > containing material? > How about this: under some circumstances, the kind and quantity of excretions from the body can change. For instance, a person on a ketogenic diet (no carbs) breaks down fat into ketone bodies (acetone, etc.) that pass through the blood-brain barrier and can be used to run the brain without glucose. In that case, about 100 calories worth of ketone bodies can be urinated daily. Regulation of body temperature isn't just a matter of how much heat your body produces, but how much it retains. Body temperature regulation involves the control of peripheral circulation AND the perception that your body is cold, so that you put more clothes on. For instance, when I have a fever, I often want to wear a heavy coat or be under a lot of blankets, and that's one of the ways that my temperature regulation system gets my temperature up. Along the lines you mention, it's also true that ketogenic diets can affect water retention. Sometimes people " lose " 10 pounds in a few days on the Atkins diet, but those pounds are mostly water, much of that bound up in the process of glycogen storage. I've known more than one alternative health practitioner that insists that water retention is a big factor in obesity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I think that Rodney makes a good point in trying to account for where the energy goes. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy is always conserved; it cannot be created or destroyed. In the final analysis, the following equation must be satisfied: Food_Energy = BMR + Exercise + Waste + Weight_Change We know for a fact that BMR can be reduced through caloric restriction as was shown by Keys in 1950 [1]. Human metabolism has not changed since 1950 (the reference is still valid Francesca) and it is confirmed by more recent studies [2]. I don't know if BMR can be INCREASED by increasing Food_Energy, but this could also be a factor. If this is true, a person who overeats regularly would not gain weight in proportion to the food eaten. Cycling between starvation and gorging (yo-yo dieting) will tend to accumulate fat because the BMR decreases during starvation, and a normal amount of food eaten when the BMR is lower provides excess calories that are stored as extra weight. Exercise is another big variable. I have read accounts that bicycle riders like Lance Armstrong consume over 6,000 calories per day during competition. An active person will tend to be slimmer than an inactive one. Also, as recently mentioned, we don't know too much about intestinal microbiota. We know that some bacteria will ferment fiber into short-chain fatty acids that provide extra calories [3], but since there are over 400 types of intestinal bacteria, and every individual has their customized colonies based on diet, it is not possible to know how much is really absorbed or passed as waste. The hunger suppression of guar gum used by some CRONies may be due to the fatty acids produced by colonic fermenation, not just the extra fiber bulk. The WASTE factor is very important. If you don't chew your food thoroughly, or if the transit time of the food through the digestive tract is fast, fewer calories can be absorbed. People with chronic diarrhea tend to lose weight from dehydration and lack of time to absorb nutrients. The way you chew your food could affect the absorption of food. First of all, there is the mechanical breakdown of the food that increases the surface area (and the absorption of nutrients). Second, saliva has the enzyme amylase that hydrolyzes carbohydrates into digestible sugars. A person who wolfs the food down can eat more food and be thinner than the thorough chewer who eats less. Just my thoughts, Tony [1] Keys A, Brozek J, Henschel A, Mickelsen O, HL. " The biology of human starvation " , Minneapolis: University of Minneapolis Press, 1950. [2] Friedlander AL, et al. " Three weeks of caloric restriction alters protein metabolism in normal-weight, young men " Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab., 2005 Sep;289(3):E446-55. Epub 2005 May 3. PMID: 15870104 [3] http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?ss=15 & doc_id=3795 & nbr=3021 " Soluble fiber is fermented to short-chain fatty acids by colonic bacteria and serve as an additional energy source. Small amounts of medium-chain triglycerides are absorbed by the colon and may be included in the diet as an additional energy source. " ================= > > > > Hi Rodney, > > > > So, I guess you suspect the mice of sneaking into the refrigerator > at night? > > > > A calorie is determined by a single way of oxidizing a fuel > source. There > > is more than one way to metabolize fuel. A pile of food burned in > a black > > box may not tell us how a body oxidizes that same fuel. It is just > an > > imperfect way of standardizing an aspect of food value. > > > > Bela Szepesi, USDA, is a carbohydrate metobolics researcher who was > my > > biochem prof. A citation/abstract follows, of one verified point of > > diversity. He explained the difference in the way high fructose > corn syrup > > is metabolized and stored in the body contrasted to regular sugar. > He told > > his class in 1990 that it was expected that the diseases of the > coming > > generation would be obesity, fatty liver and diabetes - just from > the > > prevalence of high fructose corn syrup on American foods (not from > an > > increase of calories). It appears he was correct. Both high > fructose corn > > syrup and alcohol are metabolised in the liver and deposit fat > directly into > > the liver, which is different than sugar. All calories are not > equal. > > > > And even if they were, they are not handled equally by all bodies. > You can > > feed a bull dog and a grey hound exactly the same way, and you > still get a > > bull dog and a grey hound. People who work out on weights don't > get the > > same results. People who go to the same schools don't get the same > results. > > We are a myriad of variations on a theme. > > > > If we both start out with a cup of water,and neithers spills nor > drinks > > their water, and you walk around with your cup open, and I put a > lid on > > mine, at the end of the day, I will probably have more water than > you do. > > It has nothing to do with the water. It has all to do with how we > handled > > the water. > > > > These studies are ellucidating some of the variables which are > making sense > > out of a situation not satisfactorily explained by the 'facts', as > is noted > > in the studies. You may doubt their validity, but I have been > responsible > > for managing the weights of lots of animals, and I have been > wondering when > > science would catch up to reality on this issue. Finally they are. > > > > PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 > > Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences > > Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat > Enzyme > > Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from > Sites > > Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise > Extensive > > Sequence Conservation > > > > Jeffery, Jane Soderling-Barros, Lynda A. Murray, J. > Hansen, > > Bela Szepesi, and Hans Jornvall > > > > > > > > The NH2-terminal region of rat liver glucose-6-phosphate > dehydrogenase (EC > > 1.1.1.49) is shown to differ radically from a reported amino acid > sequence > > for the fruit fly enzyme and from one for the human enzyme. The > results > > indicate considerable differences in the translational start point. > However, > > a close relationship with another reported sequence for the human > enzyme is > > established, now showing agreement between an indirectly deduced > and a > > directly analyzed NH2-terminal structure of this enzyme type. The > results > > provide evidence of one structural motif common to mammalian > species but > > also suggest that genetic inconstancy 5' to, or at the start of, > the region > > coding for the enzyme protein could be a source of intra- and > interspecies > > diversity. This is of interest in relation to the large number of > genetic > > variants of human glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. > > > > > > Best, > > Kayce > > > > > > From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> > > Hi folks: > > > > Well count me skeptical on this for now. > > > > Are we logically to conclude from this that those who are able to > > restrain their food intake and maintain a very healthy weight are by > > definition sick because the only way anyone should be expected to be > > able to control how much they eat is if they do not have the right > > flora in their intestines to cause the absorption of all the > nutients? > > > > And is it only the obese people who are well, because their > > intestines are so much more efficient? > > > > Or are their body temperatures much lower than those of the very > > healthy weight people? I think the opposite is true. Most people > on > > CR have lower body temperatures, not higher temperatures. > > > > Has it been shown that the feces of very-healthy-weight people are > > loaded with unabsorbed calories? Has it been shown they have lower > > body temperatures? I think these things need to be demonstrated > > before I will be able to take this seriously. > > ------ > > And as for the claimed increase in adipose, has it been demonstrated > > that in these people who add a lot of adipose everything > > else ........... bone, organs, brain etc. are reduced in size > > when these people are on iso-caloric diets and compared with people > > who do not have the adenovirus? > > > > Calories do not just appear out of, or disappear into, the air. If > > they are eating the same amount and they have added a lot more fat > > then where did they get the calories from to do that? > > ------ > > Or is the argument that these adenoviruses make people > uncontrollably > > and irresistably hungry? So that it is not their fault they eat > > more? Or is the excuse that the virus destroys a person's ability > to > > discipline the amount they eat? > > > > Or are these people simply no different from the healthy weight > > people, except that they voluntarily choose to eat more? > > ------ > > It seems to me that none of these studies so far go anywhere > remotely > > close to providing rational, and credible, answers to the above > > questions. > > > > Rodney. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I think that Rodney makes a good point in trying to account for where the energy goes. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy is always conserved; it cannot be created or destroyed. In the final analysis, the following equation must be satisfied: Food_Energy = BMR + Exercise + Waste + Weight_Change We know for a fact that BMR can be reduced through caloric restriction as was shown by Keys in 1950 [1]. Human metabolism has not changed since 1950 (the reference is still valid Francesca) and it is confirmed by more recent studies [2]. I don't know if BMR can be INCREASED by increasing Food_Energy, but this could also be a factor. If this is true, a person who overeats regularly would not gain weight in proportion to the food eaten. Cycling between starvation and gorging (yo-yo dieting) will tend to accumulate fat because the BMR decreases during starvation, and a normal amount of food eaten when the BMR is lower provides excess calories that are stored as extra weight. Exercise is another big variable. I have read accounts that bicycle riders like Lance Armstrong consume over 6,000 calories per day during competition. An active person will tend to be slimmer than an inactive one. Also, as recently mentioned, we don't know too much about intestinal microbiota. We know that some bacteria will ferment fiber into short-chain fatty acids that provide extra calories [3], but since there are over 400 types of intestinal bacteria, and every individual has their customized colonies based on diet, it is not possible to know how much is really absorbed or passed as waste. The hunger suppression of guar gum used by some CRONies may be due to the fatty acids produced by colonic fermenation, not just the extra fiber bulk. The WASTE factor is very important. If you don't chew your food thoroughly, or if the transit time of the food through the digestive tract is fast, fewer calories can be absorbed. People with chronic diarrhea tend to lose weight from dehydration and lack of time to absorb nutrients. The way you chew your food could affect the absorption of food. First of all, there is the mechanical breakdown of the food that increases the surface area (and the absorption of nutrients). Second, saliva has the enzyme amylase that hydrolyzes carbohydrates into digestible sugars. A person who wolfs the food down can eat more food and be thinner than the thorough chewer who eats less. Just my thoughts, Tony [1] Keys A, Brozek J, Henschel A, Mickelsen O, HL. " The biology of human starvation " , Minneapolis: University of Minneapolis Press, 1950. [2] Friedlander AL, et al. " Three weeks of caloric restriction alters protein metabolism in normal-weight, young men " Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab., 2005 Sep;289(3):E446-55. Epub 2005 May 3. PMID: 15870104 [3] http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?ss=15 & doc_id=3795 & nbr=3021 " Soluble fiber is fermented to short-chain fatty acids by colonic bacteria and serve as an additional energy source. Small amounts of medium-chain triglycerides are absorbed by the colon and may be included in the diet as an additional energy source. " ================= > > > > Hi Rodney, > > > > So, I guess you suspect the mice of sneaking into the refrigerator > at night? > > > > A calorie is determined by a single way of oxidizing a fuel > source. There > > is more than one way to metabolize fuel. A pile of food burned in > a black > > box may not tell us how a body oxidizes that same fuel. It is just > an > > imperfect way of standardizing an aspect of food value. > > > > Bela Szepesi, USDA, is a carbohydrate metobolics researcher who was > my > > biochem prof. A citation/abstract follows, of one verified point of > > diversity. He explained the difference in the way high fructose > corn syrup > > is metabolized and stored in the body contrasted to regular sugar. > He told > > his class in 1990 that it was expected that the diseases of the > coming > > generation would be obesity, fatty liver and diabetes - just from > the > > prevalence of high fructose corn syrup on American foods (not from > an > > increase of calories). It appears he was correct. Both high > fructose corn > > syrup and alcohol are metabolised in the liver and deposit fat > directly into > > the liver, which is different than sugar. All calories are not > equal. > > > > And even if they were, they are not handled equally by all bodies. > You can > > feed a bull dog and a grey hound exactly the same way, and you > still get a > > bull dog and a grey hound. People who work out on weights don't > get the > > same results. People who go to the same schools don't get the same > results. > > We are a myriad of variations on a theme. > > > > If we both start out with a cup of water,and neithers spills nor > drinks > > their water, and you walk around with your cup open, and I put a > lid on > > mine, at the end of the day, I will probably have more water than > you do. > > It has nothing to do with the water. It has all to do with how we > handled > > the water. > > > > These studies are ellucidating some of the variables which are > making sense > > out of a situation not satisfactorily explained by the 'facts', as > is noted > > in the studies. You may doubt their validity, but I have been > responsible > > for managing the weights of lots of animals, and I have been > wondering when > > science would catch up to reality on this issue. Finally they are. > > > > PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 > > Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences > > Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat > Enzyme > > Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from > Sites > > Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise > Extensive > > Sequence Conservation > > > > Jeffery, Jane Soderling-Barros, Lynda A. Murray, J. > Hansen, > > Bela Szepesi, and Hans Jornvall > > > > > > > > The NH2-terminal region of rat liver glucose-6-phosphate > dehydrogenase (EC > > 1.1.1.49) is shown to differ radically from a reported amino acid > sequence > > for the fruit fly enzyme and from one for the human enzyme. The > results > > indicate considerable differences in the translational start point. > However, > > a close relationship with another reported sequence for the human > enzyme is > > established, now showing agreement between an indirectly deduced > and a > > directly analyzed NH2-terminal structure of this enzyme type. The > results > > provide evidence of one structural motif common to mammalian > species but > > also suggest that genetic inconstancy 5' to, or at the start of, > the region > > coding for the enzyme protein could be a source of intra- and > interspecies > > diversity. This is of interest in relation to the large number of > genetic > > variants of human glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. > > > > > > Best, > > Kayce > > > > > > From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...> > > Hi folks: > > > > Well count me skeptical on this for now. > > > > Are we logically to conclude from this that those who are able to > > restrain their food intake and maintain a very healthy weight are by > > definition sick because the only way anyone should be expected to be > > able to control how much they eat is if they do not have the right > > flora in their intestines to cause the absorption of all the > nutients? > > > > And is it only the obese people who are well, because their > > intestines are so much more efficient? > > > > Or are their body temperatures much lower than those of the very > > healthy weight people? I think the opposite is true. Most people > on > > CR have lower body temperatures, not higher temperatures. > > > > Has it been shown that the feces of very-healthy-weight people are > > loaded with unabsorbed calories? Has it been shown they have lower > > body temperatures? I think these things need to be demonstrated > > before I will be able to take this seriously. > > ------ > > And as for the claimed increase in adipose, has it been demonstrated > > that in these people who add a lot of adipose everything > > else ........... bone, organs, brain etc. are reduced in size > > when these people are on iso-caloric diets and compared with people > > who do not have the adenovirus? > > > > Calories do not just appear out of, or disappear into, the air. If > > they are eating the same amount and they have added a lot more fat > > then where did they get the calories from to do that? > > ------ > > Or is the argument that these adenoviruses make people > uncontrollably > > and irresistably hungry? So that it is not their fault they eat > > more? Or is the excuse that the virus destroys a person's ability > to > > discipline the amount they eat? > > > > Or are these people simply no different from the healthy weight > > people, except that they voluntarily choose to eat more? > > ------ > > It seems to me that none of these studies so far go anywhere > remotely > > close to providing rational, and credible, answers to the above > > questions. > > > > Rodney. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I have this: Larsen: Textbook of Endocrinology, 10th ed., pg 140, A reduction in leptin levels occurs because of loss of adipose mass such as in anorexia nervosa, weight loss induced by diet or exercise, or starvation and is crucial to metabolic adaptation to a state of negative energy balance. This metabolic adaptation includes a decrease in metabolic rate that allows extended survival periods; inhibition of the reproductive, GH, and thyroid axes[283] ; and, at least in rodents, inhibition of the activity of the sympathetic nervous system. Regards. [ ] Re: to Rodney re obesity I think that Rodney makes a good point in trying to account for wherethe energy goes. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energyis always conserved; it cannot be created or destroyed. In the finalanalysis, the following equation must be satisfied:Food_Energy = BMR + Exercise + Waste + Weight_ChangeWe know for a fact that BMR can be reduced through caloric restrictionas was shown by Keys in 1950 [1]. Human metabolism has not changedsince 1950 (the reference is still valid Francesca) and it isconfirmed by more recent studies [2].I don't know if BMR can be INCREASED by increasing Food_Energy, butthis could also be a factor. If this is true, a person who overeatsregularly would not gain weight in proportion to the food eaten.Cycling between starvation and gorging (yo-yo dieting) will tend toaccumulate fat because the BMR decreases during starvation, and anormal amount of food eaten when the BMR is lower provides excesscalories that are stored as extra weight.Exercise is another big variable. I have read accounts that bicycleriders like Lance Armstrong consume over 6,000 calories per day duringcompetition. An active person will tend to be slimmer than aninactive one.Also, as recently mentioned, we don't know too much aboutintestinal microbiota. We know that some bacteria will ferment fiberinto short-chain fatty acids that provide extra calories [3], butsince there are over 400 types of intestinal bacteria, and everyindividual has their customized colonies based on diet, it is notpossible to know how much is really absorbed or passed as waste. Thehunger suppression of guar gum used by some CRONies may be due to thefatty acids produced by colonic fermenation, not just the extra fiberbulk.The WASTE factor is very important. If you don't chew your foodthoroughly, or if the transit time of the food through the digestivetract is fast, fewer calories can be absorbed. People with chronicdiarrhea tend to lose weight from dehydration and lack of time toabsorb nutrients. The way you chew your food could affect the absorption of food. Firstof all, there is the mechanical breakdown of the food that increasesthe surface area (and the absorption of nutrients). Second, salivahas the enzyme amylase that hydrolyzes carbohydrates into digestiblesugars. A person who wolfs the food down can eat more food and bethinner than the thorough chewer who eats less.Just my thoughts,Tony[1] Keys A, Brozek J, Henschel A, Mickelsen O, HL. "The biologyof human starvation", Minneapolis: University of Minneapolis Press, 1950.[2] Friedlander AL, et al. "Three weeks of caloric restriction altersprotein metabolism in normal-weight, young men" Am J PhysiolEndocrinol Metab., 2005 Sep;289(3):E446-55. Epub 2005 May 3. PMID:15870104[3] http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?ss=15 & doc_id=3795 & nbr=3021"Soluble fiber is fermented to short-chain fatty acids by colonicbacteria and serve as an additional energy source. Small amounts ofmedium-chain triglycerides are absorbed by the colon and may beincluded in the diet as an additional energy source. "=================> >> > Hi Rodney,> > > > So, I guess you suspect the mice of sneaking into the refrigerator > at night?> > > > A calorie is determined by a single way of oxidizing a fuel > source. There > > is more than one way to metabolize fuel. A pile of food burned in > a black > > box may not tell us how a body oxidizes that same fuel. It is just > an > > imperfect way of standardizing an aspect of food value.> > > > Bela Szepesi, USDA, is a carbohydrate metobolics researcher who was > my > > biochem prof. A citation/abstract follows, of one verified point of > > diversity. He explained the difference in the way high fructose > corn syrup > > is metabolized and stored in the body contrasted to regular sugar. > He told > > his class in 1990 that it was expected that the diseases of the > coming > > generation would be obesity, fatty liver and diabetes - just from > the > > prevalence of high fructose corn syrup on American foods (not from > an > > increase of calories). It appears he was correct. Both high > fructose corn > > syrup and alcohol are metabolised in the liver and deposit fat > directly into > > the liver, which is different than sugar. All calories are not > equal.> > > > And even if they were, they are not handled equally by all bodies. > You can > > feed a bull dog and a grey hound exactly the same way, and you > still get a > > bull dog and a grey hound. People who work out on weights don't > get the > > same results. People who go to the same schools don't get the same > results. > > We are a myriad of variations on a theme.> > > > If we both start out with a cup of water,and neithers spills nor > drinks > > their water, and you walk around with your cup open, and I put a > lid on > > mine, at the end of the day, I will probably have more water than > you do. > > It has nothing to do with the water. It has all to do with how we > handled > > the water.> > > > These studies are ellucidating some of the variables which are > making sense > > out of a situation not satisfactorily explained by the 'facts', as > is noted > > in the studies. You may doubt their validity, but I have been > responsible > > for managing the weights of lots of animals, and I have been > wondering when > > science would catch up to reality on this issue. Finally they are.> > > > PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843> > Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences> > Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat > Enzyme > > Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from > Sites > > Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise > Extensive > > Sequence Conservation> > > > Jeffery, Jane Soderling-Barros, Lynda A. Murray, J. > Hansen, > > Bela Szepesi, and Hans Jornvall> > > > > > > > The NH2-terminal region of rat liver glucose-6-phosphate > dehydrogenase (EC > > 1.1.1.49) is shown to differ radically from a reported amino acid > sequence > > for the fruit fly enzyme and from one for the human enzyme. The > results > > indicate considerable differences in the translational start point. > However, > > a close relationship with another reported sequence for the human > enzyme is > > established, now showing agreement between an indirectly deduced > and a > > directly analyzed NH2-terminal structure of this enzyme type. The > results > > provide evidence of one structural motif common to mammalian > species but > > also suggest that genetic inconstancy 5' to, or at the start of, > the region > > coding for the enzyme protein could be a source of intra- and > interspecies > > diversity. This is of interest in relation to the large number of > genetic > > variants of human glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase.> > > > > > Best,> > Kayce> > > > > > From: "Rodney" <perspect1111@y...>> > Hi folks:> > > > Well count me skeptical on this for now.> > > > Are we logically to conclude from this that those who are able to> > restrain their food intake and maintain a very healthy weight are by> > definition sick because the only way anyone should be expected to be> > able to control how much they eat is if they do not have the right> > flora in their intestines to cause the absorption of all the > nutients?> > > > And is it only the obese people who are well, because their> > intestines are so much more efficient?> > > > Or are their body temperatures much lower than those of the very> > healthy weight people? I think the opposite is true. Most people > on> > CR have lower body temperatures, not higher temperatures.> > > > Has it been shown that the feces of very-healthy-weight people are> > loaded with unabsorbed calories? Has it been shown they have lower> > body temperatures? I think these things need to be demonstrated> > before I will be able to take this seriously.> > ------> > And as for the claimed increase in adipose, has it been demonstrated> > that in these people who add a lot of adipose everything> > else ........... bone, organs, brain etc. are reduced in size> > when these people are on iso-caloric diets and compared with people> > who do not have the adenovirus?> > > > Calories do not just appear out of, or disappear into, the air. If> > they are eating the same amount and they have added a lot more fat> > then where did they get the calories from to do that?> > ------> > Or is the argument that these adenoviruses make people > uncontrollably> > and irresistably hungry? So that it is not their fault they eat> > more? Or is the excuse that the virus destroys a person's ability > to> > discipline the amount they eat?> > > > Or are these people simply no different from the healthy weight> > people, except that they voluntarily choose to eat more?> > ------> > It seems to me that none of these studies so far go anywhere > remotely> > close to providing rational, and credible, answers to the above> > questions.> > > > Rodney.> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I have this: Larsen: Textbook of Endocrinology, 10th ed., pg 140, A reduction in leptin levels occurs because of loss of adipose mass such as in anorexia nervosa, weight loss induced by diet or exercise, or starvation and is crucial to metabolic adaptation to a state of negative energy balance. This metabolic adaptation includes a decrease in metabolic rate that allows extended survival periods; inhibition of the reproductive, GH, and thyroid axes[283] ; and, at least in rodents, inhibition of the activity of the sympathetic nervous system. Regards. [ ] Re: to Rodney re obesity I think that Rodney makes a good point in trying to account for wherethe energy goes. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energyis always conserved; it cannot be created or destroyed. In the finalanalysis, the following equation must be satisfied:Food_Energy = BMR + Exercise + Waste + Weight_ChangeWe know for a fact that BMR can be reduced through caloric restrictionas was shown by Keys in 1950 [1]. Human metabolism has not changedsince 1950 (the reference is still valid Francesca) and it isconfirmed by more recent studies [2].I don't know if BMR can be INCREASED by increasing Food_Energy, butthis could also be a factor. If this is true, a person who overeatsregularly would not gain weight in proportion to the food eaten.Cycling between starvation and gorging (yo-yo dieting) will tend toaccumulate fat because the BMR decreases during starvation, and anormal amount of food eaten when the BMR is lower provides excesscalories that are stored as extra weight.Exercise is another big variable. I have read accounts that bicycleriders like Lance Armstrong consume over 6,000 calories per day duringcompetition. An active person will tend to be slimmer than aninactive one.Also, as recently mentioned, we don't know too much aboutintestinal microbiota. We know that some bacteria will ferment fiberinto short-chain fatty acids that provide extra calories [3], butsince there are over 400 types of intestinal bacteria, and everyindividual has their customized colonies based on diet, it is notpossible to know how much is really absorbed or passed as waste. Thehunger suppression of guar gum used by some CRONies may be due to thefatty acids produced by colonic fermenation, not just the extra fiberbulk.The WASTE factor is very important. If you don't chew your foodthoroughly, or if the transit time of the food through the digestivetract is fast, fewer calories can be absorbed. People with chronicdiarrhea tend to lose weight from dehydration and lack of time toabsorb nutrients. The way you chew your food could affect the absorption of food. Firstof all, there is the mechanical breakdown of the food that increasesthe surface area (and the absorption of nutrients). Second, salivahas the enzyme amylase that hydrolyzes carbohydrates into digestiblesugars. A person who wolfs the food down can eat more food and bethinner than the thorough chewer who eats less.Just my thoughts,Tony[1] Keys A, Brozek J, Henschel A, Mickelsen O, HL. "The biologyof human starvation", Minneapolis: University of Minneapolis Press, 1950.[2] Friedlander AL, et al. "Three weeks of caloric restriction altersprotein metabolism in normal-weight, young men" Am J PhysiolEndocrinol Metab., 2005 Sep;289(3):E446-55. Epub 2005 May 3. PMID:15870104[3] http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?ss=15 & doc_id=3795 & nbr=3021"Soluble fiber is fermented to short-chain fatty acids by colonicbacteria and serve as an additional energy source. Small amounts ofmedium-chain triglycerides are absorbed by the colon and may beincluded in the diet as an additional energy source. "=================> >> > Hi Rodney,> > > > So, I guess you suspect the mice of sneaking into the refrigerator > at night?> > > > A calorie is determined by a single way of oxidizing a fuel > source. There > > is more than one way to metabolize fuel. A pile of food burned in > a black > > box may not tell us how a body oxidizes that same fuel. It is just > an > > imperfect way of standardizing an aspect of food value.> > > > Bela Szepesi, USDA, is a carbohydrate metobolics researcher who was > my > > biochem prof. A citation/abstract follows, of one verified point of > > diversity. He explained the difference in the way high fructose > corn syrup > > is metabolized and stored in the body contrasted to regular sugar. > He told > > his class in 1990 that it was expected that the diseases of the > coming > > generation would be obesity, fatty liver and diabetes - just from > the > > prevalence of high fructose corn syrup on American foods (not from > an > > increase of calories). It appears he was correct. Both high > fructose corn > > syrup and alcohol are metabolised in the liver and deposit fat > directly into > > the liver, which is different than sugar. All calories are not > equal.> > > > And even if they were, they are not handled equally by all bodies. > You can > > feed a bull dog and a grey hound exactly the same way, and you > still get a > > bull dog and a grey hound. People who work out on weights don't > get the > > same results. People who go to the same schools don't get the same > results. > > We are a myriad of variations on a theme.> > > > If we both start out with a cup of water,and neithers spills nor > drinks > > their water, and you walk around with your cup open, and I put a > lid on > > mine, at the end of the day, I will probably have more water than > you do. > > It has nothing to do with the water. It has all to do with how we > handled > > the water.> > > > These studies are ellucidating some of the variables which are > making sense > > out of a situation not satisfactorily explained by the 'facts', as > is noted > > in the studies. You may doubt their validity, but I have been > responsible > > for managing the weights of lots of animals, and I have been > wondering when > > science would catch up to reality on this issue. Finally they are.> > > > PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843> > Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences> > Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat > Enzyme > > Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from > Sites > > Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise > Extensive > > Sequence Conservation> > > > Jeffery, Jane Soderling-Barros, Lynda A. Murray, J. > Hansen, > > Bela Szepesi, and Hans Jornvall> > > > > > > > The NH2-terminal region of rat liver glucose-6-phosphate > dehydrogenase (EC > > 1.1.1.49) is shown to differ radically from a reported amino acid > sequence > > for the fruit fly enzyme and from one for the human enzyme. The > results > > indicate considerable differences in the translational start point. > However, > > a close relationship with another reported sequence for the human > enzyme is > > established, now showing agreement between an indirectly deduced > and a > > directly analyzed NH2-terminal structure of this enzyme type. The > results > > provide evidence of one structural motif common to mammalian > species but > > also suggest that genetic inconstancy 5' to, or at the start of, > the region > > coding for the enzyme protein could be a source of intra- and > interspecies > > diversity. This is of interest in relation to the large number of > genetic > > variants of human glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase.> > > > > > Best,> > Kayce> > > > > > From: "Rodney" <perspect1111@y...>> > Hi folks:> > > > Well count me skeptical on this for now.> > > > Are we logically to conclude from this that those who are able to> > restrain their food intake and maintain a very healthy weight are by> > definition sick because the only way anyone should be expected to be> > able to control how much they eat is if they do not have the right> > flora in their intestines to cause the absorption of all the > nutients?> > > > And is it only the obese people who are well, because their> > intestines are so much more efficient?> > > > Or are their body temperatures much lower than those of the very> > healthy weight people? I think the opposite is true. Most people > on> > CR have lower body temperatures, not higher temperatures.> > > > Has it been shown that the feces of very-healthy-weight people are> > loaded with unabsorbed calories? Has it been shown they have lower> > body temperatures? I think these things need to be demonstrated> > before I will be able to take this seriously.> > ------> > And as for the claimed increase in adipose, has it been demonstrated> > that in these people who add a lot of adipose everything> > else ........... bone, organs, brain etc. are reduced in size> > when these people are on iso-caloric diets and compared with people> > who do not have the adenovirus?> > > > Calories do not just appear out of, or disappear into, the air. If> > they are eating the same amount and they have added a lot more fat> > then where did they get the calories from to do that?> > ------> > Or is the argument that these adenoviruses make people > uncontrollably> > and irresistably hungry? So that it is not their fault they eat> > more? Or is the excuse that the virus destroys a person's ability > to> > discipline the amount they eat?> > > > Or are these people simply no different from the healthy weight> > people, except that they voluntarily choose to eat more?> > ------> > It seems to me that none of these studies so far go anywhere > remotely> > close to providing rational, and credible, answers to the above> > questions.> > > > Rodney.> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi : So is the next obesity explanation gonna be expressed in terms of: " some people deposit water around their hips and others around their waist " ? ; ^ ))) Clearly water is one component in the weight issue - largely diuretics and anti-diuretics. And it doubtless explains the huge increase in weight Dr. Atkins experienced in hospital (while on carb- containing IV feed) before he died. But I doubt it accounts for much more than 10% of the added weight of obese individuals eating a normal diet - beyond the fact that in order for 3500 calories to get incorporated into body tissues water is necessary to accommodate it, and that water accounts for much of the normally expected one pound increase in weight. My weight, taken at the same time in the am, before eating or drinking anything, fluctuates within a six pound range around its 'reality' mid-point on a regular basis. Occasionally the range widens to nine pounds. I once saw an eleven pound rise in weight from 8 am one morning to 8 am the next. Almost all of these fluctuations are predictable on the basis of the diuretic characteristics of what I have eaten, along with other factors affecting body water content. And are reversed over the following few days. Rodney. > > Hi Kayce: > > > > I suppose there is another possibility. Can it be shown that the > > weight, volume, bulk, of obese people, is not composed of energy- > > containing material? > > > How about this: under some circumstances, the kind and quantity of > excretions from the body can change. > > For instance, a person on a ketogenic diet (no carbs) breaks down > fat into ketone bodies (acetone, etc.) that pass through the > blood-brain barrier and can be used to run the brain without glucose. > In that case, about 100 calories worth of ketone bodies can be urinated > daily. > > Regulation of body temperature isn't just a matter of how much heat > your body produces, but how much it retains. Body temperature > regulation involves the control of peripheral circulation AND the > perception that your body is cold, so that you put more clothes on. > For instance, when I have a fever, I often want to wear a heavy coat > or be under a lot of blankets, and that's one of the ways that my > temperature regulation system gets my temperature up. > > Along the lines you mention, it's also true that ketogenic diets > can affect water retention. Sometimes people " lose " 10 pounds in a few > days on the Atkins diet, but those pounds are mostly water, much of > that bound up in the process of glycogen storage. > > I've known more than one alternative health practitioner that > insists that water retention is a big factor in obesity. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi : So is the next obesity explanation gonna be expressed in terms of: " some people deposit water around their hips and others around their waist " ? ; ^ ))) Clearly water is one component in the weight issue - largely diuretics and anti-diuretics. And it doubtless explains the huge increase in weight Dr. Atkins experienced in hospital (while on carb- containing IV feed) before he died. But I doubt it accounts for much more than 10% of the added weight of obese individuals eating a normal diet - beyond the fact that in order for 3500 calories to get incorporated into body tissues water is necessary to accommodate it, and that water accounts for much of the normally expected one pound increase in weight. My weight, taken at the same time in the am, before eating or drinking anything, fluctuates within a six pound range around its 'reality' mid-point on a regular basis. Occasionally the range widens to nine pounds. I once saw an eleven pound rise in weight from 8 am one morning to 8 am the next. Almost all of these fluctuations are predictable on the basis of the diuretic characteristics of what I have eaten, along with other factors affecting body water content. And are reversed over the following few days. Rodney. > > Hi Kayce: > > > > I suppose there is another possibility. Can it be shown that the > > weight, volume, bulk, of obese people, is not composed of energy- > > containing material? > > > How about this: under some circumstances, the kind and quantity of > excretions from the body can change. > > For instance, a person on a ketogenic diet (no carbs) breaks down > fat into ketone bodies (acetone, etc.) that pass through the > blood-brain barrier and can be used to run the brain without glucose. > In that case, about 100 calories worth of ketone bodies can be urinated > daily. > > Regulation of body temperature isn't just a matter of how much heat > your body produces, but how much it retains. Body temperature > regulation involves the control of peripheral circulation AND the > perception that your body is cold, so that you put more clothes on. > For instance, when I have a fever, I often want to wear a heavy coat > or be under a lot of blankets, and that's one of the ways that my > temperature regulation system gets my temperature up. > > Along the lines you mention, it's also true that ketogenic diets > can affect water retention. Sometimes people " lose " 10 pounds in a few > days on the Atkins diet, but those pounds are mostly water, much of > that bound up in the process of glycogen storage. > > I've known more than one alternative health practitioner that > insists that water retention is a big factor in obesity. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 At 01:27 PM 1/31/2006, you wrote: Hi : So is the next obesity explanation gonna be expressed in terms of: " some people deposit water around their hips and others around their waist " ? ; ^ ))) Clearly water is one component in the weight issue - largely diuretics and anti-diuretics. And it doubtless explains the huge increase in weight Dr. Atkins experienced in hospital (while on carb- containing IV feed) before he died. But I doubt it accounts for much more than 10% of the added weight of obese individuals eating a normal diet - beyond the fact that in order for 3500 calories to get incorporated into body tissues water is necessary to accommodate it, and that water accounts for much of the normally expected one pound increase in weight. My weight, taken at the same time in the am, before eating or drinking anything, fluctuates within a six pound range around its 'reality' mid-point on a regular basis. Occasionally the range widens to nine pounds. I once saw an eleven pound rise in weight from 8 am one morning to 8 am the next. I have noticed similar excursions. I, however, am convinced that the lowest reading in any reasonable period is always the " real " one. ;-) Maco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 At 01:27 PM 1/31/2006, you wrote: Hi : So is the next obesity explanation gonna be expressed in terms of: " some people deposit water around their hips and others around their waist " ? ; ^ ))) Clearly water is one component in the weight issue - largely diuretics and anti-diuretics. And it doubtless explains the huge increase in weight Dr. Atkins experienced in hospital (while on carb- containing IV feed) before he died. But I doubt it accounts for much more than 10% of the added weight of obese individuals eating a normal diet - beyond the fact that in order for 3500 calories to get incorporated into body tissues water is necessary to accommodate it, and that water accounts for much of the normally expected one pound increase in weight. My weight, taken at the same time in the am, before eating or drinking anything, fluctuates within a six pound range around its 'reality' mid-point on a regular basis. Occasionally the range widens to nine pounds. I once saw an eleven pound rise in weight from 8 am one morning to 8 am the next. I have noticed similar excursions. I, however, am convinced that the lowest reading in any reasonable period is always the " real " one. ;-) Maco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Francesca, I specifically chose an " ancient " , reference to demonstrate that it has long been known that there are verifiable biological bases for differences in metabolism. This is not presented as a " news " item. I do not imagine that you have any problems with the rigor of the paper or the conclusions, or the independence of the scientists. Best, Kayce From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> Reply- < > Subject: Re: [ ] to Rodney re obesity Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:57:08 -0500 Kayce: this reference is ancient! Please use the most current references as noted in our new rules for posting. A reference that is 16 years old is an eternity in the growing field of nutrition. on 1/31/2006 12:38 AM, kayce cover at k_cover@... wrote: PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat Enzyme Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from Sites Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise Extensive Sequence Conservation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Francesca, I specifically chose an " ancient " , reference to demonstrate that it has long been known that there are verifiable biological bases for differences in metabolism. This is not presented as a " news " item. I do not imagine that you have any problems with the rigor of the paper or the conclusions, or the independence of the scientists. Best, Kayce From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> Reply- < > Subject: Re: [ ] to Rodney re obesity Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:57:08 -0500 Kayce: this reference is ancient! Please use the most current references as noted in our new rules for posting. A reference that is 16 years old is an eternity in the growing field of nutrition. on 1/31/2006 12:38 AM, kayce cover at k_cover@... wrote: PNAS | November 1, 1988 | vol. 85 | no. 21 | 7840-7843 Copyright © 1988 by the National Academy of Sciences Molecular Diversity of Glucose-6-phosphate Dehydrogenase: Rat Enzyme Structure Identifies NH2-terminal Segment, Shows Initiation from Sites Nonequivalent in Different Organisms, and Establishes Otherwise Extensive Sequence Conservation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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