Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 While I'm having a little trouble with all your jargon, and I can't say that I see an actual question... CR is AFAIK not so rigid that it matters how you approach that reduced energy intake as long as you get adequate nutrition. I have a sneaking suspicion at least some of the benefit we realize is just from reduced fat mass. In general wrt EOD (every other day) feeding and nutrition I expect we have little to worry about from fat soluble vitamins which are stored for such use, Vit C and other water soluble vitamins that aren't saved might be worth eating on the " other " non feeding day... perhaps an orange for breakfast. Some individuals are less comfortable with their non sugar based energy pathways and find fasting physically distracting... in such cases modest amounts of carbohydrates might be useful. While EOD feeding may not seem very moderate, it doesn't strike me unnatural except perhaps to the snack/fast food industry... Good luck JR jt_qod wrote: > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day (and > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. I > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, and > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long-term - > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, and > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during QOD > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 While I'm having a little trouble with all your jargon, and I can't say that I see an actual question... CR is AFAIK not so rigid that it matters how you approach that reduced energy intake as long as you get adequate nutrition. I have a sneaking suspicion at least some of the benefit we realize is just from reduced fat mass. In general wrt EOD (every other day) feeding and nutrition I expect we have little to worry about from fat soluble vitamins which are stored for such use, Vit C and other water soluble vitamins that aren't saved might be worth eating on the " other " non feeding day... perhaps an orange for breakfast. Some individuals are less comfortable with their non sugar based energy pathways and find fasting physically distracting... in such cases modest amounts of carbohydrates might be useful. While EOD feeding may not seem very moderate, it doesn't strike me unnatural except perhaps to the snack/fast food industry... Good luck JR jt_qod wrote: > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day (and > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. I > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, and > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long-term - > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, and > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during QOD > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hi : Welcome. As you will likely know most of the CR studies have used lower animals from yeast on up to rats. Some long standing, but as yet uncompleted, experiments are still going on in monkeys. The mice CRON experiments, which have produced 40% expansions in maximum lifespan in response to 40% restriction, have been done on an alternate day fasting schedule. Simply for convenience the mice were fed Monday, Wednesday and Friday only. In the light of the above, so long as you are getting the RDAs for all the nutrients, it is difficult to imagine there being problems with alternate day fasting. There are some members here who are doing that, and none that I know of are having any problems. All animals have evolved in an environment where food has been unavailable for periods much longer than one day. So one would presume we are well equipped to handle such short periods without nutrition. Diabetics are likely an exception to this rule. Rodney. > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day (and > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. I > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, and > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long-term - > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, and > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during QOD > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > All the best, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hi : Welcome. As you will likely know most of the CR studies have used lower animals from yeast on up to rats. Some long standing, but as yet uncompleted, experiments are still going on in monkeys. The mice CRON experiments, which have produced 40% expansions in maximum lifespan in response to 40% restriction, have been done on an alternate day fasting schedule. Simply for convenience the mice were fed Monday, Wednesday and Friday only. In the light of the above, so long as you are getting the RDAs for all the nutrients, it is difficult to imagine there being problems with alternate day fasting. There are some members here who are doing that, and none that I know of are having any problems. All animals have evolved in an environment where food has been unavailable for periods much longer than one day. So one would presume we are well equipped to handle such short periods without nutrition. Diabetics are likely an exception to this rule. Rodney. > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day (and > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. I > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, and > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long-term - > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, and > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during QOD > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > All the best, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hello , We discussed Intermittent Fasting some time ago. Message 21137 has a schedule for having breakfast every day while eating only on alternate 24-hour periods. It all depends on the TIMING! MWF intermittent fasting schedule averaging 2000-Calories per day Sunday: 4 meals at any time, 3250 (4000-750) calories Monday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Tuesday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Wednesday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Thursday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Friday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Saturday: 3 meals after 9:00, 2000 calories The schedule has the advantage that there is no fasting on Saturday and Sunday when there are many social activities. A strict 24-hour ON/OFF schedule can only be built over a 2 week period when there is an even number of days. The two-week cycle can be repeated indefinitely: .... Week1: Sunday: 4 meals at any time, 3250 (4000-750) calories Monday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Tuesday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Wednesday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Thursday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Friday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Saturday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories .... Week2: Sunday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Monday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Tuesday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Wednesday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Thursday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Friday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Saturday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories This two-week cycle is a strict 24-hours ON, 24-hours OFF diet suitable for the most extreme IF purist, while at the same time making it possible to replenish electrolytes and minerals every day. The important thing is that 9:00 AM is the cut-off time for the ON/OFF cycles. Tony Zamora > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day (and > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. I > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, and > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long-term - > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, and > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during QOD > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > All the best, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hello , We discussed Intermittent Fasting some time ago. Message 21137 has a schedule for having breakfast every day while eating only on alternate 24-hour periods. It all depends on the TIMING! MWF intermittent fasting schedule averaging 2000-Calories per day Sunday: 4 meals at any time, 3250 (4000-750) calories Monday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Tuesday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Wednesday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Thursday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Friday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Saturday: 3 meals after 9:00, 2000 calories The schedule has the advantage that there is no fasting on Saturday and Sunday when there are many social activities. A strict 24-hour ON/OFF schedule can only be built over a 2 week period when there is an even number of days. The two-week cycle can be repeated indefinitely: .... Week1: Sunday: 4 meals at any time, 3250 (4000-750) calories Monday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Tuesday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Wednesday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Thursday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Friday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Saturday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories .... Week2: Sunday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Monday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Tuesday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Wednesday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Thursday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories Friday: 4 meals after 9:00, 3250 calories Saturday: Only breakfast before 9:00, 750 calories This two-week cycle is a strict 24-hours ON, 24-hours OFF diet suitable for the most extreme IF purist, while at the same time making it possible to replenish electrolytes and minerals every day. The important thing is that 9:00 AM is the cut-off time for the ON/OFF cycles. Tony Zamora > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day (and > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. I > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, and > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long-term - > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, and > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during QOD > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > All the best, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Dr. Daugirdas, Your theory is interesting, and I might take a look at your book, but for now I'm curious about the electrolyte balance issue. How do you feel about using CeraLyte on the off days? I have a lot of this product in the house because my 5-year-old son uses it for daily hydration due to a medical condition. It has worked extremely well for him. > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day (and > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. I > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, and > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long- term - > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, and > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during QOD > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > All the best, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Dr. Daugirdas, Your theory is interesting, and I might take a look at your book, but for now I'm curious about the electrolyte balance issue. How do you feel about using CeraLyte on the off days? I have a lot of this product in the house because my 5-year-old son uses it for daily hydration due to a medical condition. It has worked extremely well for him. > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day (and > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. I > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, and > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long- term - > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, and > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during QOD > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > All the best, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hi folks: Do we really have concerns that going without food for one day, or two at the most, might cause electrolyte problems? If so then that is news to me and I would be interested to see some data/information about it. If anyone has a reference at their fingertips. Rodney. > > > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day > (and > > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. > I > > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, > and > > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long- > term - > > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, > and > > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during > QOD > > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hi folks: Do we really have concerns that going without food for one day, or two at the most, might cause electrolyte problems? If so then that is news to me and I would be interested to see some data/information about it. If anyone has a reference at their fingertips. Rodney. > > > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate > > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day > (and > > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. > I > > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, > and > > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long- > term - > > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of > > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, > and > > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during > QOD > > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hi folks: The kind of data of this type that would be nice to see would be the electrolyte readings of, say 100, healthy weight people with no known health problems who are fasted for two full days - from 8 pm day 1 to 7 am day 4. How many of the subjects would show material problems? And if so how soon? Diabetics clearly would not want to try this. But would it be a problem for normal people? Some people are known to do water-only fasts for a lot longer than this and believe it to be good for their health! I have not heard of any of them keeling over and being dragged off to hospital. Have I been remiss in keeping up with the news reports? Rodney. > > > > > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > > > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified > alternate > > > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > > > > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > > > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day > > (and > > > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a > home. > > I > > > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > > > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > > > > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to > lose, > > and > > > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long- > > term - > > > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > > > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > > > > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role > of > > > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of > diets, > > and > > > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during > > QOD > > > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > > > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hi folks: The kind of data of this type that would be nice to see would be the electrolyte readings of, say 100, healthy weight people with no known health problems who are fasted for two full days - from 8 pm day 1 to 7 am day 4. How many of the subjects would show material problems? And if so how soon? Diabetics clearly would not want to try this. But would it be a problem for normal people? Some people are known to do water-only fasts for a lot longer than this and believe it to be good for their health! I have not heard of any of them keeling over and being dragged off to hospital. Have I been remiss in keeping up with the news reports? Rodney. > > > > > > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR > > > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified > alternate > > > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > > > > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good, > > > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day > > (and > > > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a > home. > > I > > > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing > > > caloric intake overall by about 40%. > > > > > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to > lose, > > and > > > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long- > > term - > > > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for > > > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat. > > > > > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role > of > > > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of > diets, > > and > > > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during > > QOD > > > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of > > > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 I don't know about electrolyte balance but different people vary quite a bit in their ability to shift easily from burning sugar for energy to burning fat or protein. There may be a training effect (gets easier with experience) and probably some physiological differences between individuals. YMMV. My main problem with embracing EOD mouse data without reservation is that a day for a mouse may be quite different than a day for larger mammal. I suspect it isn't a simple scale factor. As usual far more is unknown than known about how to translate such results. JR Rodney wrote: > Hi folks: > > The kind of data of this type that would be nice to see would be the > electrolyte readings of, say 100, healthy weight people with no known > health problems who are fasted for two full days - from 8 pm day 1 to > 7 am day 4. How many of the subjects would show material problems? > And if so how soon? > > Diabetics clearly would not want to try this. But would it be a > problem for normal people? > > Some people are known to do water-only fasts for a lot longer than > this and believe it to be good for their health! I have not heard of > any of them keeling over and being dragged off to hospital. Have I > been remiss in keeping up with the news reports? > > Rodney. > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 I don't know about electrolyte balance but different people vary quite a bit in their ability to shift easily from burning sugar for energy to burning fat or protein. There may be a training effect (gets easier with experience) and probably some physiological differences between individuals. YMMV. My main problem with embracing EOD mouse data without reservation is that a day for a mouse may be quite different than a day for larger mammal. I suspect it isn't a simple scale factor. As usual far more is unknown than known about how to translate such results. JR Rodney wrote: > Hi folks: > > The kind of data of this type that would be nice to see would be the > electrolyte readings of, say 100, healthy weight people with no known > health problems who are fasted for two full days - from 8 pm day 1 to > 7 am day 4. How many of the subjects would show material problems? > And if so how soon? > > Diabetics clearly would not want to try this. But would it be a > problem for normal people? > > Some people are known to do water-only fasts for a lot longer than > this and believe it to be good for their health! I have not heard of > any of them keeling over and being dragged off to hospital. Have I > been remiss in keeping up with the news reports? > > Rodney. > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 I'll let Dr. D speak for himself, but from what I was able to garner from a few searches into his book via Amazon, some people have difficulty when fasting because they are excreting too much salt, making them feel weak and woozy (he's a nephrologist, thus the kidney angle on dieting). That's one reason why he appears to be advocating keeping sodium and potassium levels up on fasting days. But there seems to be an assumption that his reader is on a typical high sodium diet and the kidneys are therefore excreting high levels of sodium. I don't know if his assumptions would hold for CR practitioners, who may tend to take in and excrete less sodium. On the other hand, I'm willing to try an apparently harmless idea for making fasting days easier, because if it works for me, that would be great. > > Hi folks: > > > > The kind of data of this type that would be nice to see would be the > > electrolyte readings of, say 100, healthy weight people with no known > > health problems who are fasted for two full days - from 8 pm day 1 to > > 7 am day 4. How many of the subjects would show material problems? > > And if so how soon? > > > > Diabetics clearly would not want to try this. But would it be a > > problem for normal people? > > > > Some people are known to do water-only fasts for a lot longer than > > this and believe it to be good for their health! I have not heard of > > any of them keeling over and being dragged off to hospital. Have I > > been remiss in keeping up with the news reports? > > > > Rodney. > > > > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 I'll let Dr. D speak for himself, but from what I was able to garner from a few searches into his book via Amazon, some people have difficulty when fasting because they are excreting too much salt, making them feel weak and woozy (he's a nephrologist, thus the kidney angle on dieting). That's one reason why he appears to be advocating keeping sodium and potassium levels up on fasting days. But there seems to be an assumption that his reader is on a typical high sodium diet and the kidneys are therefore excreting high levels of sodium. I don't know if his assumptions would hold for CR practitioners, who may tend to take in and excrete less sodium. On the other hand, I'm willing to try an apparently harmless idea for making fasting days easier, because if it works for me, that would be great. > > Hi folks: > > > > The kind of data of this type that would be nice to see would be the > > electrolyte readings of, say 100, healthy weight people with no known > > health problems who are fasted for two full days - from 8 pm day 1 to > > 7 am day 4. How many of the subjects would show material problems? > > And if so how soon? > > > > Diabetics clearly would not want to try this. But would it be a > > problem for normal people? > > > > Some people are known to do water-only fasts for a lot longer than > > this and believe it to be good for their health! I have not heard of > > any of them keeling over and being dragged off to hospital. Have I > > been remiss in keeping up with the news reports? > > > > Rodney. > > > > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Electrolyte changes can happen on a fast. However, Dr Ds book on amazon is not an authoritative source. We need to see the studies. There are published studies on fasting, some as long as several months and one or two as long as a year, and usually this is not an issue during these extended fasts, many on nothing but pure water. . Remember Terri Shiavo? Sad case, but she didnt have food or water for almost 2 weeks and didnt have electrolyte problems. Skipping meals for one day or 24 hours for most people will not cause a problem in electrolyte balance. jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Electrolyte changes can happen on a fast. However, Dr Ds book on amazon is not an authoritative source. We need to see the studies. There are published studies on fasting, some as long as several months and one or two as long as a year, and usually this is not an issue during these extended fasts, many on nothing but pure water. . Remember Terri Shiavo? Sad case, but she didnt have food or water for almost 2 weeks and didnt have electrolyte problems. Skipping meals for one day or 24 hours for most people will not cause a problem in electrolyte balance. jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 The thing I can tell you for sure is on days that I fast for a blood test from say 8PM to 9AM, I start running on fat. The ketosis is obvious in my breath. I just don't perform as well without carbs. The physical side is I will eat a lot after the test. I don't believe I have to feel hungry, ref: Ornish's book, pg 255, "So eat whenever you feel hungry, but it's best to wait until you do feel hungry". Walford, 120 year, pg 82, says fasting is acceptable for 1 or 2 days, if that's the only way you can do CR, "not a necessary part of CRON", pg 83. I notice the regularity of a low intake diet keeps everything regular. The body will hold on to food in the gut until I eat again. So it seems reasonable if enough stuff is stored in the gut to get thru the second, it shouldn't impact minerals. I read where bears hibernate for several months and their body can use up proteins, then rebuild them when they eat again. and oddly humans do not share that feature. It may be that mice share that, but I never found it. So I question why I'd want to do that. Anyway, hunger is the hardest nutritional thing people have to learn to control. Regards. [ ] Re: Just saying hi. Hi folks:Do we really have concerns that going without food for one day, or two at the most, might cause electrolyte problems? If so then that is news to me and I would be interested to see some data/information about it. If anyone has a reference at their fingertips.Rodney.> >> > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR> > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate> > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good,> > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day > (and> > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. > I> > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing> > caloric intake overall by about 40%.> > > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, > and> > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long-> term -> > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for> > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat.> > > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of> > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, > and> > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during > QOD> > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of> > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > > > All the best,> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 The thing I can tell you for sure is on days that I fast for a blood test from say 8PM to 9AM, I start running on fat. The ketosis is obvious in my breath. I just don't perform as well without carbs. The physical side is I will eat a lot after the test. I don't believe I have to feel hungry, ref: Ornish's book, pg 255, "So eat whenever you feel hungry, but it's best to wait until you do feel hungry". Walford, 120 year, pg 82, says fasting is acceptable for 1 or 2 days, if that's the only way you can do CR, "not a necessary part of CRON", pg 83. I notice the regularity of a low intake diet keeps everything regular. The body will hold on to food in the gut until I eat again. So it seems reasonable if enough stuff is stored in the gut to get thru the second, it shouldn't impact minerals. I read where bears hibernate for several months and their body can use up proteins, then rebuild them when they eat again. and oddly humans do not share that feature. It may be that mice share that, but I never found it. So I question why I'd want to do that. Anyway, hunger is the hardest nutritional thing people have to learn to control. Regards. [ ] Re: Just saying hi. Hi folks:Do we really have concerns that going without food for one day, or two at the most, might cause electrolyte problems? If so then that is news to me and I would be interested to see some data/information about it. If anyone has a reference at their fingertips.Rodney.> >> > Well, my name is Daugirdas, and I've been interested in CR> > primarily in the context of weight loss, using a modified alternate> > day fasting regimen (eatqod.com). > > > > The IF purists now tell me that my diet concept may not be good,> > because it does depend on eating about 300-400 calories one day > (and> > 2000-2600 calories the next). So I'm sort of looking for a home. > I> > figure the diet does qualify as CR, since it does wind up reducing> > caloric intake overall by about 40%.> > > > I personally have now lost most of the weight I've needed to lose, > and> > am experimenting with staying on a QOD type of diet more long-> term -> > not so much for longevity, but to limit my own opportunities for> > overeating and increase the quality of the food that I eat.> > > > I have special interests in mineral balance, especially the role of> > sodium and potassium, calcium, and magnesium in CR types of diets, > and> > the possible advantages of keeping mineral intake constant during > QOD> > type of eating. I'm also interested in a sort of CR-lite type of> > approach, that might be used to mainstream such diets. > > > > All the best,> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 If they were dragged off to the hospital they call it sudden death. I can find little about the FFA, free fatty acids, that power the heart and their transport. At our low level of intake, it is a concern for me. Regards. [ ] Re: Just saying hi. Hi folks:The kind of data of this type that would be nice to see would be the electrolyte readings of, say 100, healthy weight people with no known health problems who are fasted for two full days - from 8 pm day 1 to 7 am day 4. How many of the subjects would show material problems? And if so how soon?Diabetics clearly would not want to try this. But would it be a problem for normal people?Some people are known to do water-only fasts for a lot longer than this and believe it to be good for their health! I have not heard of any of them keeling over and being dragged off to hospital. Have I been remiss in keeping up with the news reports?Rodney.>> Hi folks:> > Do we really have concerns that going without food for one day, or > two at the most, might cause electrolyte problems? If so then that > is news to me and I would be interested to see some data/information > about it. If anyone has a reference at their fingertips.> > Rodney.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 If they were dragged off to the hospital they call it sudden death. I can find little about the FFA, free fatty acids, that power the heart and their transport. At our low level of intake, it is a concern for me. Regards. [ ] Re: Just saying hi. Hi folks:The kind of data of this type that would be nice to see would be the electrolyte readings of, say 100, healthy weight people with no known health problems who are fasted for two full days - from 8 pm day 1 to 7 am day 4. How many of the subjects would show material problems? And if so how soon?Diabetics clearly would not want to try this. But would it be a problem for normal people?Some people are known to do water-only fasts for a lot longer than this and believe it to be good for their health! I have not heard of any of them keeling over and being dragged off to hospital. Have I been remiss in keeping up with the news reports?Rodney.>> Hi folks:> > Do we really have concerns that going without food for one day, or > two at the most, might cause electrolyte problems? If so then that > is news to me and I would be interested to see some data/information > about it. If anyone has a reference at their fingertips.> > Rodney.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 > > Electrolyte changes can happen on a fast. However, Dr Ds book on amazon is not an authoritative source. We need to see the studies. There are published studies on fasting, some as long as several months and one or two as long as a year, and usually this is not an issue during these extended fasts, many on nothing but pure water. . > > Remember Terri Shiavo? Sad case, but she didnt have food or water for almost 2 weeks and didnt have electrolyte problems. Skipping meals for one day or 24 hours for most people will not cause a problem in electrolyte balance. -------------------------------- Jeff, well, I think there are two issues that are being mixed together here. Even if it does take the kidneys a few days to adjust to a lower sodium intake, then by definition, this would be a problem only for day 1 or perhaps day 1 and day 2 of a fast. With a prolonged fast, this would no longer be an issue, as healthy kidneys can almost completely shut off loss of sodium on very low sodium diets - it just takes them a few days. " Skipping meals for one day or 24 hours for most people will not cause a problem in electrolyte balance. " Well, it boils down to what you mean by electolyte balance. Measurable changes in serum sodium level? No, this won't happen. A feeling of being weak and washed out and feeling terrible? I believe this does happen not infrequently, and that people are driven to eat not because of hunger but because of impending salt depletion. However, as you point out, this specific issue has not been submitted to a specific, clinical test or trial. Such transient salt-depletion problems would not be expected to occur in people following a vey low sodium diet, but almost no one does. I don't know - maybe everyone in this discussion group does follow a very low sodium diet and if they do, then this for them would be a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 > > Electrolyte changes can happen on a fast. However, Dr Ds book on amazon is not an authoritative source. We need to see the studies. There are published studies on fasting, some as long as several months and one or two as long as a year, and usually this is not an issue during these extended fasts, many on nothing but pure water. . > > Remember Terri Shiavo? Sad case, but she didnt have food or water for almost 2 weeks and didnt have electrolyte problems. Skipping meals for one day or 24 hours for most people will not cause a problem in electrolyte balance. -------------------------------- Jeff, well, I think there are two issues that are being mixed together here. Even if it does take the kidneys a few days to adjust to a lower sodium intake, then by definition, this would be a problem only for day 1 or perhaps day 1 and day 2 of a fast. With a prolonged fast, this would no longer be an issue, as healthy kidneys can almost completely shut off loss of sodium on very low sodium diets - it just takes them a few days. " Skipping meals for one day or 24 hours for most people will not cause a problem in electrolyte balance. " Well, it boils down to what you mean by electolyte balance. Measurable changes in serum sodium level? No, this won't happen. A feeling of being weak and washed out and feeling terrible? I believe this does happen not infrequently, and that people are driven to eat not because of hunger but because of impending salt depletion. However, as you point out, this specific issue has not been submitted to a specific, clinical test or trial. Such transient salt-depletion problems would not be expected to occur in people following a vey low sodium diet, but almost no one does. I don't know - maybe everyone in this discussion group does follow a very low sodium diet and if they do, then this for them would be a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 The average sodium intake in the USA is 4000 mgs a day. At the center ours is around 900-1200. Every week I see a 100 people who go from 4000 to 900-1200 and watch them for 1 week to 6 months. I rarely if ever see a problem in electrolyte balance, and if I do, it is in someone with advanced kidney disease. The body adjusts not only to a lower sodium intake but also to a higher fiber intake (which may create discomfort for a few days) lower protein intake and etc etc However, remember, when you go on a fast, people are giving up lots of things, besides salt, usually. And, there are many contributors to why they may feel hungry or bad. Regards Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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