Re: Re: Obese Don't Want to Lose Weight

[Guest guest]

Rodney wrote:

> Hi Leanne:

>

> The question this raises for me is why is it that many people,

> although a small minority, are able to get a grip on themselves and

> decide to do what they know is in the best interests of their health,

> while others, the majority by far, are quite incapable of doing so?

>

Objectively, it's hard for most people to control their weight.

I was around 185 lbs for a long time, then I got a gym membership,

did a lot of cardio and weights. I've tried a few regimes, such as the

Zone Diet and weekly fasts/no sugar, and I had no trouble being stable

around 177 lbs; often I managed to stick to regimes for periods of 6 to

18 months. Whenever I got around 175 lbs, it always seemed that I'd

get some virus, lose 2-3 pounds while being sick, and then the really

ravenous hunger would kick in and I'd be back in the 180's soon.

A bit more than a year ago I developed runner's knee and that's

really reduced my activity. I also had trouble at work and a three-year

old in the house, had a father-in-law die, all sorts of trouble. The

stress really got to me and I got into all sorts of bad habits,

especially eating high-calorie, low-nutrient food from packaged junk to

peanut butter right out of the jar. I weighed in at the doctor's office

at 205 pounds, and that's the reason I joined this list.

Something funny is that this year I haven't had any colds at all,

whereas the last couple winters, when I was much thinner, it seemed

like I had colds all the time -- and I've had a sick preschooler crawl

into my bed at night quite often this winter.

--------------

As for the real fatties, you could think the obesity epidemic

doesn't exist if you lived in a place like Ithaca that's populated

largely by students. Go some place with an aging population, like New

England, the fatness is pretty amazing. For a long time my weight

stayed the same, but every time I visited family in NE they'd tell me

they thought I was losing weight... No, it was just that all the

people around them were getting fatter.

There are so many things about the culture that encourage

overconsumption. Last night we invited our family from the area to

dinner at an Italian restaurant. I stayed mostly away from the pizza

and pasta, but had boiled haddock with some vegetables. The vegetables

were in a butter sauce that was so fatty I couldn't stand to eat it --

not from an intellectual perspective, but because they made me feel

sick. (These days I can't stand deep-fried tofu and meat from chinese

resturants, or anything from the " food bars " at the local supermarket

where they seem to stuff the most fat possible in everything they can.)

All of the meat entrees came in two sizes: say $18 for a 12 oz steak

and $20 for a 16 oz steak. Everybody got the bigger entree because it

seemed a better deal.

Restraunts face a fundamental business problem this way: most the

cost is labor and rent, so it costs them about the same to serve a 4 oz

steak and a 16 oz steak. We had a cajun restuarant in town that served

reasonable (won't make you fat) portions of good food, you'd pay $8 a

plate, but you were getting half or a third as much food as you'd get

for that price at other restuarants, so people had the feeling they

were getting " ripped off " -- the place lasted just a year.

For a country that takes buying and selling so seriously, American

retail is in sad shape. 20-30 years ago, people went to places like

Sears and got mass-market items that struck a reasonable balance between

price and quality. Today, many people are buying food from places like

Wal-Mart and ALDI where it's all about getting the most calories per

dollar. My mother-in-law likes it when we buy her natural food from our

food co-op, but she'll never buy anything there herself, because it's

" too expensive " -- she'd rather marvel at the huge sheet cake she can

get at Sam's Club for $9.99. The other half is that she doesn't know

how to cook -- last time she had a party, she had to stuff us all (a

crowd which is half obese & diabetic) with junk... She doesn't even

know how to mash potatoes, instead she gets flavorless flaked mashed

potatoes in a box.

------

There's not just the cultural thing, but there seems to be some

kind of biological setpoint for people's weight: the hormonal circuitry

which centers around leptin. I've found it comfortable to be around

177, but always end up in trouble when I try to get below 175. I'm

just hoping that my sins of the last year won't move my setpoint

permanently up...

[Guest guest]

Rodney wrote:

> Hi Leanne:

>

> The question this raises for me is why is it that many people,

> although a small minority, are able to get a grip on themselves and

> decide to do what they know is in the best interests of their health,

> while others, the majority by far, are quite incapable of doing so?

>

Objectively, it's hard for most people to control their weight.

I was around 185 lbs for a long time, then I got a gym membership,

did a lot of cardio and weights. I've tried a few regimes, such as the

Zone Diet and weekly fasts/no sugar, and I had no trouble being stable

around 177 lbs; often I managed to stick to regimes for periods of 6 to

18 months. Whenever I got around 175 lbs, it always seemed that I'd

get some virus, lose 2-3 pounds while being sick, and then the really

ravenous hunger would kick in and I'd be back in the 180's soon.

A bit more than a year ago I developed runner's knee and that's

really reduced my activity. I also had trouble at work and a three-year

old in the house, had a father-in-law die, all sorts of trouble. The

stress really got to me and I got into all sorts of bad habits,

especially eating high-calorie, low-nutrient food from packaged junk to

peanut butter right out of the jar. I weighed in at the doctor's office

at 205 pounds, and that's the reason I joined this list.

Something funny is that this year I haven't had any colds at all,

whereas the last couple winters, when I was much thinner, it seemed

like I had colds all the time -- and I've had a sick preschooler crawl

into my bed at night quite often this winter.

--------------

As for the real fatties, you could think the obesity epidemic

doesn't exist if you lived in a place like Ithaca that's populated

largely by students. Go some place with an aging population, like New

England, the fatness is pretty amazing. For a long time my weight

stayed the same, but every time I visited family in NE they'd tell me

they thought I was losing weight... No, it was just that all the

people around them were getting fatter.

There are so many things about the culture that encourage

overconsumption. Last night we invited our family from the area to

dinner at an Italian restaurant. I stayed mostly away from the pizza

and pasta, but had boiled haddock with some vegetables. The vegetables

were in a butter sauce that was so fatty I couldn't stand to eat it --

not from an intellectual perspective, but because they made me feel

sick. (These days I can't stand deep-fried tofu and meat from chinese

resturants, or anything from the " food bars " at the local supermarket

where they seem to stuff the most fat possible in everything they can.)

All of the meat entrees came in two sizes: say $18 for a 12 oz steak

and $20 for a 16 oz steak. Everybody got the bigger entree because it

seemed a better deal.

Restraunts face a fundamental business problem this way: most the

cost is labor and rent, so it costs them about the same to serve a 4 oz

steak and a 16 oz steak. We had a cajun restuarant in town that served

reasonable (won't make you fat) portions of good food, you'd pay $8 a

plate, but you were getting half or a third as much food as you'd get

for that price at other restuarants, so people had the feeling they

were getting " ripped off " -- the place lasted just a year.

For a country that takes buying and selling so seriously, American

retail is in sad shape. 20-30 years ago, people went to places like

Sears and got mass-market items that struck a reasonable balance between

price and quality. Today, many people are buying food from places like

Wal-Mart and ALDI where it's all about getting the most calories per

dollar. My mother-in-law likes it when we buy her natural food from our

food co-op, but she'll never buy anything there herself, because it's

" too expensive " -- she'd rather marvel at the huge sheet cake she can

get at Sam's Club for $9.99. The other half is that she doesn't know

how to cook -- last time she had a party, she had to stuff us all (a

crowd which is half obese & diabetic) with junk... She doesn't even

know how to mash potatoes, instead she gets flavorless flaked mashed

potatoes in a box.

------

There's not just the cultural thing, but there seems to be some

kind of biological setpoint for people's weight: the hormonal circuitry

which centers around leptin. I've found it comfortable to be around

177, but always end up in trouble when I try to get below 175. I'm

just hoping that my sins of the last year won't move my setpoint

permanently up...

[Guest guest]

The story of my life.

I finally had to resort to rice, fruit and ffmilk 3 times per day to get it down.

BUT I think there is a metabolic something or other that decides it want to be x# and that's it.

Every fall I get ready for the 10# add-on and this year was harder than last.

My solution is when I get a certain overage, I just quit eating.

With me it doesn't take long to drop back a few #, then I eat a little. You might call it sporadic fasting.

And I can't just do more exercise because it doesn;t burn that many calories. Gym exercise tends to build muscle which is extremely hard to lose.

In restaurants I concentrate on the salads, grilled chicken breast maybe, mostly seafood gumbo, Chinese vegetables. I think I'm quite disciplined in what I've selected to "desire". No gravies or sauces, no fried foods except occasionally FF potatoes (potassium), no large portions of high calorie foods.

But places like Mac's do one thing right - the sell "defined" size servings.

Serving size is one of the big control features of most "bought" diet programs - WW.

Each year we need about 7 kcals less, so in 10 yrs, we need 70 kcals less per day. That means I have to manage my calories to <100 kcals each day and that is not easy.

Since 2000, I've kept my weight down only through much discipline, dedication, devotion, and diet.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: "Obese Don't Want to Lose Weight"

Rodney wrote:> Hi Leanne:>> The question this raises for me is why is it that many people, > although a small minority, are able to get a grip on themselves and > decide to do what they know is in the best interests of their health, > while others, the majority by far, are quite incapable of doing so?> Objectively, it's hard for most people to control their weight. I was around 185 lbs for a long time, then I got a gym membership, did a lot of cardio and weights. I've tried a few regimes, such as the Zone Diet and weekly fasts/no sugar, and I had no trouble being stable around 177 lbs; often I managed to stick to regimes for periods of 6 to 18 months. Whenever I got around 175 lbs, it always seemed that I'd get some virus, lose 2-3 pounds while being sick, and then the really ravenous hunger would kick in and I'd be back in the 180's soon. A bit more than a year ago I developed runner's knee and that's really reduced my activity. I also had trouble at work and a three-year old in the house, had a father-in-law die, all sorts of trouble. The stress really got to me and I got into all sorts of bad habits, especially eating high-calorie, low-nutrient food from packaged junk to peanut butter right out of the jar. I weighed in at the doctor's office at 205 pounds, and that's the reason I joined this list. Something funny is that this year I haven't had any colds at all, whereas the last couple winters, when I was much thinner, it seemed like I had colds all the time -- and I've had a sick preschooler crawl into my bed at night quite often this winter.-------------- As for the real fatties, you could think the obesity epidemic doesn't exist if you lived in a place like Ithaca that's populated largely by students. Go some place with an aging population, like New England, the fatness is pretty amazing. For a long time my weight stayed the same, but every time I visited family in NE they'd tell me they thought I was losing weight... No, it was just that all the people around them were getting fatter. There are so many things about the culture that encourage overconsumption. Last night we invited our family from the area to dinner at an Italian restaurant. I stayed mostly away from the pizza and pasta, but had boiled haddock with some vegetables. The vegetables were in a butter sauce that was so fatty I couldn't stand to eat it -- not from an intellectual perspective, but because they made me feel sick. (These days I can't stand deep-fried tofu and meat from chinese resturants, or anything from the "food bars" at the local supermarket where they seem to stuff the most fat possible in everything they can.) All of the meat entrees came in two sizes: say $18 for a 12 oz steak and $20 for a 16 oz steak. Everybody got the bigger entree because it seemed a better deal. Restraunts face a fundamental business problem this way: most the cost is labor and rent, so it costs them about the same to serve a 4 oz steak and a 16 oz steak. We had a cajun restuarant in town that served reasonable (won't make you fat) portions of good food, you'd pay $8 a plate, but you were getting half or a third as much food as you'd get for that price at other restuarants, so people had the feeling they were getting "ripped off" -- the place lasted just a year. For a country that takes buying and selling so seriously, American retail is in sad shape. 20-30 years ago, people went to places like Sears and got mass-market items that struck a reasonable balance between price and quality. Today, many people are buying food from places like Wal-Mart and ALDI where it's all about getting the most calories per dollar. My mother-in-law likes it when we buy her natural food from our food co-op, but she'll never buy anything there herself, because it's "too expensive" -- she'd rather marvel at the huge sheet cake she can get at Sam's Club for $9.99. The other half is that she doesn't know how to cook -- last time she had a party, she had to stuff us all (a crowd which is half obese & diabetic) with junk... She doesn't even know how to mash potatoes, instead she gets flavorless flaked mashed potatoes in a box.------ There's not just the cultural thing, but there seems to be some kind of biological setpoint for people's weight: the hormonal circuitry which centers around leptin. I've found it comfortable to be around 177, but always end up in trouble when I try to get below 175. I'm just hoping that my sins of the last year won't move my setpoint permanently up...

[Guest guest]

The story of my life.

I finally had to resort to rice, fruit and ffmilk 3 times per day to get it down.

BUT I think there is a metabolic something or other that decides it want to be x# and that's it.

Every fall I get ready for the 10# add-on and this year was harder than last.

My solution is when I get a certain overage, I just quit eating.

With me it doesn't take long to drop back a few #, then I eat a little. You might call it sporadic fasting.

And I can't just do more exercise because it doesn;t burn that many calories. Gym exercise tends to build muscle which is extremely hard to lose.

In restaurants I concentrate on the salads, grilled chicken breast maybe, mostly seafood gumbo, Chinese vegetables. I think I'm quite disciplined in what I've selected to "desire". No gravies or sauces, no fried foods except occasionally FF potatoes (potassium), no large portions of high calorie foods.

But places like Mac's do one thing right - the sell "defined" size servings.

Serving size is one of the big control features of most "bought" diet programs - WW.

Each year we need about 7 kcals less, so in 10 yrs, we need 70 kcals less per day. That means I have to manage my calories to <100 kcals each day and that is not easy.

Since 2000, I've kept my weight down only through much discipline, dedication, devotion, and diet.

Regards.

Re: [ ] Re: "Obese Don't Want to Lose Weight"

Rodney wrote:> Hi Leanne:>> The question this raises for me is why is it that many people, > although a small minority, are able to get a grip on themselves and > decide to do what they know is in the best interests of their health, > while others, the majority by far, are quite incapable of doing so?> Objectively, it's hard for most people to control their weight. I was around 185 lbs for a long time, then I got a gym membership, did a lot of cardio and weights. I've tried a few regimes, such as the Zone Diet and weekly fasts/no sugar, and I had no trouble being stable around 177 lbs; often I managed to stick to regimes for periods of 6 to 18 months. Whenever I got around 175 lbs, it always seemed that I'd get some virus, lose 2-3 pounds while being sick, and then the really ravenous hunger would kick in and I'd be back in the 180's soon. A bit more than a year ago I developed runner's knee and that's really reduced my activity. I also had trouble at work and a three-year old in the house, had a father-in-law die, all sorts of trouble. The stress really got to me and I got into all sorts of bad habits, especially eating high-calorie, low-nutrient food from packaged junk to peanut butter right out of the jar. I weighed in at the doctor's office at 205 pounds, and that's the reason I joined this list. Something funny is that this year I haven't had any colds at all, whereas the last couple winters, when I was much thinner, it seemed like I had colds all the time -- and I've had a sick preschooler crawl into my bed at night quite often this winter.-------------- As for the real fatties, you could think the obesity epidemic doesn't exist if you lived in a place like Ithaca that's populated largely by students. Go some place with an aging population, like New England, the fatness is pretty amazing. For a long time my weight stayed the same, but every time I visited family in NE they'd tell me they thought I was losing weight... No, it was just that all the people around them were getting fatter. There are so many things about the culture that encourage overconsumption. Last night we invited our family from the area to dinner at an Italian restaurant. I stayed mostly away from the pizza and pasta, but had boiled haddock with some vegetables. The vegetables were in a butter sauce that was so fatty I couldn't stand to eat it -- not from an intellectual perspective, but because they made me feel sick. (These days I can't stand deep-fried tofu and meat from chinese resturants, or anything from the "food bars" at the local supermarket where they seem to stuff the most fat possible in everything they can.) All of the meat entrees came in two sizes: say $18 for a 12 oz steak and $20 for a 16 oz steak. Everybody got the bigger entree because it seemed a better deal. Restraunts face a fundamental business problem this way: most the cost is labor and rent, so it costs them about the same to serve a 4 oz steak and a 16 oz steak. We had a cajun restuarant in town that served reasonable (won't make you fat) portions of good food, you'd pay $8 a plate, but you were getting half or a third as much food as you'd get for that price at other restuarants, so people had the feeling they were getting "ripped off" -- the place lasted just a year. For a country that takes buying and selling so seriously, American retail is in sad shape. 20-30 years ago, people went to places like Sears and got mass-market items that struck a reasonable balance between price and quality. Today, many people are buying food from places like Wal-Mart and ALDI where it's all about getting the most calories per dollar. My mother-in-law likes it when we buy her natural food from our food co-op, but she'll never buy anything there herself, because it's "too expensive" -- she'd rather marvel at the huge sheet cake she can get at Sam's Club for $9.99. The other half is that she doesn't know how to cook -- last time she had a party, she had to stuff us all (a crowd which is half obese & diabetic) with junk... She doesn't even know how to mash potatoes, instead she gets flavorless flaked mashed potatoes in a box.------ There's not just the cultural thing, but there seems to be some kind of biological setpoint for people's weight: the hormonal circuitry which centers around leptin. I've found it comfortable to be around 177, but always end up in trouble when I try to get below 175. I'm just hoping that my sins of the last year won't move my setpoint permanently up...

[Guest guest]

Rodney wrote:

> A few such excuses are things like: " It's genetic, some people

> cannot lose weight because of their genes. " Please will someone

> explain to me why it is that three times as many people are obese now

> compared with thirty years ago when their parents were the same age?

> So if they do not have their parents' genes, who in hell's genes do

> these nuts think they have????

>

>

I think it's a change in the environment over the last 30 years.

The real answer may be something like this:

http://arxiv.org/abs/q-bio.NC/0312011

>

> Simply put, I believe that reducing caloric intake to sensible levels

> (gradually, to 1200 to 2000 a day eventually) will return **anyone**

> to a sensible weight. And if this is not correct then it will be

> very important information.

>

>

I don't doubt this. And I don't think any of the reputable work on

setpoints disagrees with this. Yet, people who are overweight have a

difficult time sticking to a reduced calorie regimen.

Changing someone's environment radically can make a different. My

sister-in-law is ludicrously overweight: every so often she sits in a

chair and breaks it. She came to visit us when we were living in

Germany. We were horrified by what we saw when she got off the plane,

rolls of fat everywhere, she looked like she was going to have a heart

attack then and there.

After week and a half of eating vegan food and walking all over

Dresden, Munich, Prague and Amsterdam she was transformed. We didn't

measure her on a scale, but she looked like a different person.

She went back to the US, back to her usual lifestyle, and she

broke a few more chairs.

> The first step in fixing a problem is understanding it. IMO giving

> people all kinds of excuses like: 'your set point will prevent you

> from losing weight', is not likely to be helpful. All it does is

> deflect them from facing up to the only reality as regards excess

> weight - hunger and restraint.

>

> Rodney.

>

Sure, but it's a source of physiological stress in a time where

most people have too much stress from other sources.

It's a lot like doing drugs. Yes, you could control your stress by

doing meditation or exercise, but your average person who feels that

the job and kids are too much, the idea of anything that takes another

20 or 30 minutes out of the day brings on the overwhelm. What's so

appealing about drugs of every kind is that you pop the pill and

experience the effect -- similarly, stuffing food in your mouth lets

you get the feeling that there's at least one source of discomfort in

your life you can do something about.

Not to say it's right, but it's what we're up against.

[Guest guest]

Rodney wrote:

> A few such excuses are things like: " It's genetic, some people

> cannot lose weight because of their genes. " Please will someone

> explain to me why it is that three times as many people are obese now

> compared with thirty years ago when their parents were the same age?

> So if they do not have their parents' genes, who in hell's genes do

> these nuts think they have????

>

>

I think it's a change in the environment over the last 30 years.

The real answer may be something like this:

http://arxiv.org/abs/q-bio.NC/0312011

>

> Simply put, I believe that reducing caloric intake to sensible levels

> (gradually, to 1200 to 2000 a day eventually) will return **anyone**

> to a sensible weight. And if this is not correct then it will be

> very important information.

>

>

I don't doubt this. And I don't think any of the reputable work on

setpoints disagrees with this. Yet, people who are overweight have a

difficult time sticking to a reduced calorie regimen.

Changing someone's environment radically can make a different. My

sister-in-law is ludicrously overweight: every so often she sits in a

chair and breaks it. She came to visit us when we were living in

Germany. We were horrified by what we saw when she got off the plane,

rolls of fat everywhere, she looked like she was going to have a heart

attack then and there.

After week and a half of eating vegan food and walking all over

Dresden, Munich, Prague and Amsterdam she was transformed. We didn't

measure her on a scale, but she looked like a different person.

She went back to the US, back to her usual lifestyle, and she

broke a few more chairs.

> The first step in fixing a problem is understanding it. IMO giving

> people all kinds of excuses like: 'your set point will prevent you

> from losing weight', is not likely to be helpful. All it does is

> deflect them from facing up to the only reality as regards excess

> weight - hunger and restraint.

>

> Rodney.

>

Sure, but it's a source of physiological stress in a time where

most people have too much stress from other sources.

It's a lot like doing drugs. Yes, you could control your stress by

doing meditation or exercise, but your average person who feels that

the job and kids are too much, the idea of anything that takes another

20 or 30 minutes out of the day brings on the overwhelm. What's so

appealing about drugs of every kind is that you pop the pill and

experience the effect -- similarly, stuffing food in your mouth lets

you get the feeling that there's at least one source of discomfort in

your life you can do something about.

Not to say it's right, but it's what we're up against.

[Guest guest]

>>http://arxiv.org/abs/q-bio.NC/0312011

>

Clearly the environment has changed and is much more condusive to being

sedentary and the environment is full of highly refined calorie dense

foods that never existed before, that are now readily available and

cheap.

Put at the end of the day the final control is in the person. Your

sister could have eaten better and moved more regardless of where she

is.

Part of the problem here is that there is an effort to convince people

that trying to do better isnt worth it.

>>And I don't think any of the reputable work on setpoints disagrees

with this.

Can you post some of these references as I am not famaliar with them.

Most have abandoned the theory.

Thanks

Jeff

[Guest guest]

>>http://arxiv.org/abs/q-bio.NC/0312011

>

Clearly the environment has changed and is much more condusive to being

sedentary and the environment is full of highly refined calorie dense

foods that never existed before, that are now readily available and

cheap.

Put at the end of the day the final control is in the person. Your

sister could have eaten better and moved more regardless of where she

is.

Part of the problem here is that there is an effort to convince people

that trying to do better isnt worth it.

>>And I don't think any of the reputable work on setpoints disagrees

with this.

Can you post some of these references as I am not famaliar with them.

Most have abandoned the theory.

Thanks

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Set points may exist, but that doesn't mean that we can't work past them. It just takes effort and dedication.

[Guest guest]

Set points may exist, but that doesn't mean that we can't work past them. It just takes effort and dedication.