Re: Alcohol's heath benefits overstated?

[Guest guest]

Thanks Mike (!)

A couple of points.

First, this study certainly does not suggest there is evidence that

intake of alcohol is harmful.

Second, I do not believe it is the alcohol that confers the benefit.

The 10,000 subject, thirteen year, prospective, Copenhagen study I

have posted here more than once, which DID differentiate between

different types of alcoholic beverages, found a benefit only for

wine - and that benefit was HUGE (a dose response benefit up to a

gigantic 50% reduction in mortality) and true for all causes of

death, not just heart disease.

I suspect the alcohol may be net slightly harmful, and that it

is 'products of fermentation' (excluding the alcohol) in wine that

are responsible for the benefit. Otherwise beer and liquor would

have been found to have benefits similar to those of wine. Did they,

in the study you referenced, distinguish between liquor (in which

pretty much the only fermentation product present is alcohol) and

beer, and wine?

It seems to me this issue may be highly relevant for the validity of

the current study. Because if, as they would have us believe, the

reason for the apparent benefit is merely that sick people stop

drinking, then why would liquor and beer not display benefits as

large as those for wine? Are they claiming that it is only wine

drinkers who stop drinking if they get sick, while beer and liquor

drinkers continue to drink?

That is a bit too much of a stretch for my taste. So this suggests

to me this study's fundamental hypothesis is mistaken.

However, I am quite sure we still do not know the whole story on

this. Other issues that are relevant include: Does de-alcoholized

wine confer equal apparent benefits? My guess is the answer will

probably be found to be " Yes " . Are there differences in the benefits

of red compared with white wine? (Dunno.) Does grape juice confer

similar apparent benefits? (I dunno, but my guess is the benefits

are probably appreciably less because of the lack of fermentation

products). Do the benefits apply to people who are already

outstandingly healthy (such as those at what I would

call 'established CRON status'), or does wine simply make less

healthy people more healthy? I dunno the answer to this either of

course. My guess is it could go either way.

So we should be open minded to studies which confirm these previous

findings, especially whether wine really is superior to other

alcoholic beverages; and to other grape-related products, when

someone finally gets around to doing them. Hopefully the people in

Copenhagan are already pursuing some of these questions. If they are

then the results, whatever they turn out to be, will be

important ......... either way.

Rodney.

--- In , " mikesheldrick " <mike@...>

wrote:

>

> http://tinyurl.com/z22ak

>

> Rodney, especially, will note how statistics on health and alcohol

> could be skewed because sicker people give up drinking

>

> THURSDAY, March 30 (HealthDay News) -- Many previous studies

> suggesting that moderate drinking helps prevent heart disease may

be

> flawed, says a report by a group of researchers from Australia,

> Canada and the United States.

>

> They analyzed 54 studies that looked at the association between

> drinking and risk of premature death from all causes, including

> heart disease. The new report concluded that many of those studies

> did not account for the effects of age and illness that make

> abstainers have higher death rates than moderate drinkers.

>

> The researchers investigated suspicions that many of the abstainers

> included in these studies were actually people who'd reduced or

quit

> drinking due to declining health, frailty, medication use or

> disability. They found that only seven of the 54 studies included

> only long-term non-drinkers in the abstainers' group. Those seven

> studies found no difference in death risk between abstainers and

> moderate drinkers.

>

> The findings appear online in advance of the May issue of the

> journal Addiction Research and Theory.

>

> " The widely held belief that light or moderate drinking protects

> against coronary heart disease has had great influence on alcohol

> policy and clinical advice of doctors to their patients throughout

> the world. These findings suggest that caution should be exerted in

> recommending light drinking to abstainers because of the

possibility

> that this result may be more apparent than real, " researcher Tim

> Stockwell, of the Centre for Addictions Research at the University

> of in British Columbia, Canada, said in a prepared

> statement.

>

> " We know that older people who are light drinkers are usually

> healthier than their non-drinking peers. Our research suggests

light

> drinking is a sign of good health, not necessarily its cause. Many

> people reduce their drinking as they get older for a variety of

> health reasons, " Kaye Fillmore, of the University of California,

San

> Francisco, School of Nursing, added in a prepared statement.

>

> The researchers cautioned that their report doesn't disprove the

> idea that light drinking is good for health, because too few error-

> free studies have been performed.

>

> Mike

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Mike (!)

A couple of points.

First, this study certainly does not suggest there is evidence that

intake of alcohol is harmful.

Second, I do not believe it is the alcohol that confers the benefit.

The 10,000 subject, thirteen year, prospective, Copenhagen study I

have posted here more than once, which DID differentiate between

different types of alcoholic beverages, found a benefit only for

wine - and that benefit was HUGE (a dose response benefit up to a

gigantic 50% reduction in mortality) and true for all causes of

death, not just heart disease.

I suspect the alcohol may be net slightly harmful, and that it

is 'products of fermentation' (excluding the alcohol) in wine that

are responsible for the benefit. Otherwise beer and liquor would

have been found to have benefits similar to those of wine. Did they,

in the study you referenced, distinguish between liquor (in which

pretty much the only fermentation product present is alcohol) and

beer, and wine?

It seems to me this issue may be highly relevant for the validity of

the current study. Because if, as they would have us believe, the

reason for the apparent benefit is merely that sick people stop

drinking, then why would liquor and beer not display benefits as

large as those for wine? Are they claiming that it is only wine

drinkers who stop drinking if they get sick, while beer and liquor

drinkers continue to drink?

That is a bit too much of a stretch for my taste. So this suggests

to me this study's fundamental hypothesis is mistaken.

However, I am quite sure we still do not know the whole story on

this. Other issues that are relevant include: Does de-alcoholized

wine confer equal apparent benefits? My guess is the answer will

probably be found to be " Yes " . Are there differences in the benefits

of red compared with white wine? (Dunno.) Does grape juice confer

similar apparent benefits? (I dunno, but my guess is the benefits

are probably appreciably less because of the lack of fermentation

products). Do the benefits apply to people who are already

outstandingly healthy (such as those at what I would

call 'established CRON status'), or does wine simply make less

healthy people more healthy? I dunno the answer to this either of

course. My guess is it could go either way.

So we should be open minded to studies which confirm these previous

findings, especially whether wine really is superior to other

alcoholic beverages; and to other grape-related products, when

someone finally gets around to doing them. Hopefully the people in

Copenhagan are already pursuing some of these questions. If they are

then the results, whatever they turn out to be, will be

important ......... either way.

Rodney.

--- In , " mikesheldrick " <mike@...>

wrote:

>

> http://tinyurl.com/z22ak

>

> Rodney, especially, will note how statistics on health and alcohol

> could be skewed because sicker people give up drinking

>

> THURSDAY, March 30 (HealthDay News) -- Many previous studies

> suggesting that moderate drinking helps prevent heart disease may

be

> flawed, says a report by a group of researchers from Australia,

> Canada and the United States.

>

> They analyzed 54 studies that looked at the association between

> drinking and risk of premature death from all causes, including

> heart disease. The new report concluded that many of those studies

> did not account for the effects of age and illness that make

> abstainers have higher death rates than moderate drinkers.

>

> The researchers investigated suspicions that many of the abstainers

> included in these studies were actually people who'd reduced or

quit

> drinking due to declining health, frailty, medication use or

> disability. They found that only seven of the 54 studies included

> only long-term non-drinkers in the abstainers' group. Those seven

> studies found no difference in death risk between abstainers and

> moderate drinkers.

>

> The findings appear online in advance of the May issue of the

> journal Addiction Research and Theory.

>

> " The widely held belief that light or moderate drinking protects

> against coronary heart disease has had great influence on alcohol

> policy and clinical advice of doctors to their patients throughout

> the world. These findings suggest that caution should be exerted in

> recommending light drinking to abstainers because of the

possibility

> that this result may be more apparent than real, " researcher Tim

> Stockwell, of the Centre for Addictions Research at the University

> of in British Columbia, Canada, said in a prepared

> statement.

>

> " We know that older people who are light drinkers are usually

> healthier than their non-drinking peers. Our research suggests

light

> drinking is a sign of good health, not necessarily its cause. Many

> people reduce their drinking as they get older for a variety of

> health reasons, " Kaye Fillmore, of the University of California,

San

> Francisco, School of Nursing, added in a prepared statement.

>

> The researchers cautioned that their report doesn't disprove the

> idea that light drinking is good for health, because too few error-

> free studies have been performed.

>

> Mike

>