choline

[Guest guest]

From USDA choline.mdb:

Notice raw egg yolk is highest in phosphatidylcholine.

Total Choline

Free Choline

Choline from phosphocholine

Choline from phosphatidylcholine (Lecithin)

Choline from glycerophoshocholine

Betaine

Choline from sphingomyelin

mg

mg

mg

mg

mg

mg

mg

Egg, yolk, raw, fresh

682.4

1.3

1

634.1

0.9

0.9

45.1

Coffee, instant, decaffeinated, powder

101.9

93.7

0

0

8.2

0.7

0

Veal, variety meats and by-products, liver, cooked, pan-fried

411

92.9

9.7

224.3

56.8

8.1

27.3

Veal, variety meats and by-products, liver, cooked, braised

398.8

88.6

6.7

220.8

54.6

9.8

28.1

Veal, variety meats and by-products, liver, raw

309.9

85.3

11.1

132.7

64

7.6

16.8

Cereals ready-to-eat, wheat germ, toasted, plain

152.1

69.2

4.2

44.9

33.8

1396.1

0

Broccoli raab, cooked

33.6

4.3

13.1

13.8

2.4

0.2

0

Beef, variety meats and by-products, liver, raw

333.2

56.2

11.8

166.2

85.4

4.4

13.6

Wheat bran, crude

74.5

50.2

2.1

17.8

4.4

1506.8

0

Spinach, frozen, whole leaf, cooked, microwaved

27.5

2.2

1.8

23.5

0

808.6

0

[Guest guest]

At 06:58 PM 1/16/2006, you wrote:

From USDA choline.mdb:

Notice raw egg yolk is highest in phosphatidylcholine

Egg, yolk, raw, fresh 634.1

mg

Hi. One tablespoon of lecithin granules (from soy) would give more like

1,500 mg of PC, plus p-ethanolamine, p-inositol and a little p-serine

(along with ALA and LA). Also, the choline in lecithin is of the type

polyenolphoshpatidylcholine (PPC). I don't know which kind is in eggs,

though IIRC the word 'lecithin' is said to come from the Greek for

" egg yolk " .

Also, phosphatides contains arachidonic acid, though I believe it can be

displaced by Omega-3's.

--

Regards,

Ken

[Guest guest]

The reason I posted the choline source was in response to the BBC article. Seemed they thought eggs were good and maybe they are.

Two things - I posted what the nih thinks is in eggs. Lecithin is phosphatidylcholine.

Secondly AA is a major component of the brain, and I wonder about replacing it with ALA, DHA, etc.

I read one article which stated that DHA replaced AA. I question why I want to do that? Recall soy was associated with dementia or some brainal problem a cupla years ago (Koreans in Hawaii?).

Also, a recent dementia medical text stated lecithin and choline (supplements) were not effective against dementia. (probably because fortunately the body controls how much is absorbed).

I get confused easily.

Maybe I need to limit AA products for muscle health, but not eliminate the brain's AA?

You know if I believed everything I read, I hafta add a raw egg per day.

Also, there's a thing called acetylcholinase inhibitor, which: can be used to treat cognitive deficits.

I find it interesting that one brain health article can say the diet is short of choline and another saying to treat dementia with an acetylcholinase inhibitor.

But it's 4 AM, I may figure it out if I get my buttermilk and go back to bed.

Regards.

Re: [ ] choline

At 06:58 PM 1/16/2006, you wrote:

From USDA choline.mdb:Notice raw egg yolk is highest in phosphatidylcholineEgg, yolk, raw, fresh 634.1 mg Hi. One tablespoon of lecithin granules (from soy) would give more like 1,500 mg of PC, plus p-ethanolamine, p-inositol and a little p-serine (along with ALA and LA). Also, the choline in lecithin is of the type polyenolphoshpatidylcholine (PPC). I don't know which kind is in eggs, though IIRC the word 'lecithin' is said to come from the Greek for "egg yolk".Also, phosphatides contains arachidonic acid, though I believe it can be displaced by Omega-3's.

[Guest guest]

needed to correct the spelling:

American Family PhysicianVolume 68 • Number 7 • October 1, 2003ACETYLCHOLINESTERASE INHIBITORS

The cholinesterase inhibitor tacrine (Cognex) is used rarely because of potential liver toxicity and the need for frequent laboratory monitoring. The acetylcholinesterase inhibitors donepezil (Aricept), rivastigmine (Exelon), and galantamine (Reminyl) have been proved effective in clinical trials.

Regards.

Re: [ ] choline

At 06:58 PM 1/16/2006, you wrote:

From USDA choline.mdb:Notice raw egg yolk is highest in phosphatidylcholineEgg, yolk, raw, fresh 634.1 mg Hi. One tablespoon of lecithin granules (from soy) would give more like 1,500 mg of PC, plus p-ethanolamine, p-inositol and a little p-serine (along with ALA and LA). Also, the choline in lecithin is of the type polyenolphoshpatidylcholine (PPC). I don't know which kind is in eggs, though IIRC the word 'lecithin' is said to come from the Greek for "egg yolk".Also, phosphatides contains arachidonic acid, though I believe it can be displaced by Omega-3's.

[Guest guest]

No argument with those, but they seem to not agree with dementia. Most dementia is AD, as much as 70%, as I recall. Ischemia is the baddy for strokes up to maybe 85 where it crosses into hemorrhagic stroke.

So the question is what do we guard against.

I don't think they've got that worked out yet. Consider the family who gets dementia first, at 75 yo - no stroke, no cardio disease.

Anyway brain health is what we were discussing. Stroke is bad enough, then you throw in dementia? D is no small issue if you're planning to live to 100.

Also, think food sources not supplements if possible. The thing about supps is interaction with prescription meds, OTC meds (like Tylenol) and other supplements.

Like how much lecithin do we need?

AND:

"The study builds upon previous USF/VA research showing that diets enriched with blueberries, spinach or spirulina reversed normal age-related declines in memory and learning in old rats. " {I may not be able to eat that many blueberries.}

There's:

Am J Psychiatry. 2005 Nov;162(11):2071-7.

Prevalence and natural course of aging-associated cognitive decline in a population-based sample of young-old subjects. PMID: 16263846

Then there's Cholinergic enhancement

Am J Psychiatry. 2005 Nov;162(11):2061-70.

Pharmacological modulation of prefrontal cortical activity during a working memory task in young and older humans: a PET study with physostigmine.

CONCLUSIONS: Cholinergic enhancement does not affect structurally defined cortical regions but rather modulates neural activity in functionally defined regions, that is, in task-related prefrontal cortical areas that are selectively and distinctively recruited in young and older subjects. PMID: 16263845

Early treatment:

Int Psychogeriatr. 2003;15 Suppl 1:105-10.

Epidemiology of cerebrovascular disease related cognitive decline.Cognitive decline is a central component of the dementia process. Population-based prospective studies have confirmed the existence of age-related cognitive decline, although its conceptual basis and nosological status remain controversial. Healthy old people show decline with aging in global cognition and memory function in particular. Preclinical and clinical dementia patients exhibit deficits across multiple cognitive domains, with the largest and most consistent deficits in memory function. Cerebrovascluar disease may lead to cognitive decline and promote the clinical expression of dementia directly or by interaction with APOE epsilon4. Early treatment and prevention of cerebrovascular disease may be the major measures for preventing and postponing the progression of the vascular disease related cognitive decline. PMID: 16191225

Lesions:

Ann Neurol. 2005 Oct;58(4):610-6.

White matter lesion progression, brain atrophy, and cognitive decline: the Austrian stroke prevention study.White matter lesions progress over time, but the clinical consequences are widely unknown. ....

Associations between changes in white matter lesion load and cognitive functioning were no longer significant when adding change in brain volume to the models, suggesting that cognitive decline related directly to loss of brain substance with progression of lesion burden. PMID: 16178017

Therapy:

: Am J Geriatr Psychiatry. 2005 Aug;13(8):645-55.

Mild cognitive impairment.Mild cognitive impairment (MCI) describes a state of cognitive functioning that is below defined norms, yet falls short of dementia in severity.....

Although there are no pharmacological treatments at present that are capable of delaying the long-term progression of MCI to dementia, there is some evidence of short-term symptomatic benefits with acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. MCI is an important clinical problem, which clinicians can expect to face with increasing frequency. The essentials of management include a thorough assessment directed at etiological determination and counseling and judicious use of available therapeutics. PMID: 16085780

Then the med data:

NeurologyVolume 64 • Number 9 • May 10, 2005

APOE genotype, cholesterol level, lipid-lowering treatment, and dementia

The Three-City Study

"As in other studies, [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] we did observe an association between high cholesterol level and higher prevalence of dementia. Studies have suggested interactions between plasma cholesterol, APOE genotype, and dementia. [12] [14] [15] [17] [18] In the 3C Study, we did observe that APOE genotype modified the relationship between cholesterol level and dementia (although the interaction was not significant). The effect of hyperlipidemia was associated with increased prevalence of dementia only in non-e4 carriers."

Large observational prospective studies and randomized trials are needed to confirm the effect of statin and other LLAs {lipid-lowering agents} on the risk of dementia and to explore the impact of dosage and duration of therapy. Additional research is also needed to further delineate the LLAs’ central mechanism of action that could lead to dementia prevention.

Regards.

Re: [ ] choline>>At 06:58 PM 1/16/2006, you wrote:>> From USDA choline.mdb:>>Notice raw egg yolk is highest in phosphatidylcholine>>Egg, yolk, raw, fresh 634.1 mg>>>Hi. One tablespoon of lecithin granules (from soy) would give more >like 1,500 mg of PC, plus p-ethanolamine, p-inositol and a little >p-serine (along with ALA and LA). Also, the choline in lecithin is >of the type polyenolphoshpatidylcholine (PPC). I don't know which >kind is in eggs, though IIRC the word 'lecithin' is said to come >from the Greek for "egg yolk".>>Also, phosphatides contains arachidonic acid, though I believe it >can be displaced by Omega-3's.>>

[Guest guest]

No argument with those, but they seem to not agree with dementia. Most dementia is AD, as much as 70%, as I recall. Ischemia is the baddy for strokes up to maybe 85 where it crosses into hemorrhagic stroke.

So the question is what do we guard against.

I don't think they've got that worked out yet. Consider the family who gets dementia first, at 75 yo - no stroke, no cardio disease.

Anyway brain health is what we were discussing. Stroke is bad enough, then you throw in dementia? D is no small issue if you're planning to live to 100.

Also, think food sources not supplements if possible. The thing about supps is interaction with prescription meds, OTC meds (like Tylenol) and other supplements.

Like how much lecithin do we need?

AND:

"The study builds upon previous USF/VA research showing that diets enriched with blueberries, spinach or spirulina reversed normal age-related declines in memory and learning in old rats. " {I may not be able to eat that many blueberries.}

There's:

Am J Psychiatry. 2005 Nov;162(11):2071-7.

Prevalence and natural course of aging-associated cognitive decline in a population-based sample of young-old subjects. PMID: 16263846

Then there's Cholinergic enhancement

Am J Psychiatry. 2005 Nov;162(11):2061-70.

Pharmacological modulation of prefrontal cortical activity during a working memory task in young and older humans: a PET study with physostigmine.

CONCLUSIONS: Cholinergic enhancement does not affect structurally defined cortical regions but rather modulates neural activity in functionally defined regions, that is, in task-related prefrontal cortical areas that are selectively and distinctively recruited in young and older subjects. PMID: 16263845

Early treatment:

Int Psychogeriatr. 2003;15 Suppl 1:105-10.

Epidemiology of cerebrovascular disease related cognitive decline.Cognitive decline is a central component of the dementia process. Population-based prospective studies have confirmed the existence of age-related cognitive decline, although its conceptual basis and nosological status remain controversial. Healthy old people show decline with aging in global cognition and memory function in particular. Preclinical and clinical dementia patients exhibit deficits across multiple cognitive domains, with the largest and most consistent deficits in memory function. Cerebrovascluar disease may lead to cognitive decline and promote the clinical expression of dementia directly or by interaction with APOE epsilon4. Early treatment and prevention of cerebrovascular disease may be the major measures for preventing and postponing the progression of the vascular disease related cognitive decline. PMID: 16191225

Lesions:

Ann Neurol. 2005 Oct;58(4):610-6.

White matter lesion progression, brain atrophy, and cognitive decline: the Austrian stroke prevention study.White matter lesions progress over time, but the clinical consequences are widely unknown. ....

Associations between changes in white matter lesion load and cognitive functioning were no longer significant when adding change in brain volume to the models, suggesting that cognitive decline related directly to loss of brain substance with progression of lesion burden. PMID: 16178017

Therapy:

: Am J Geriatr Psychiatry. 2005 Aug;13(8):645-55.

Mild cognitive impairment.Mild cognitive impairment (MCI) describes a state of cognitive functioning that is below defined norms, yet falls short of dementia in severity.....

Although there are no pharmacological treatments at present that are capable of delaying the long-term progression of MCI to dementia, there is some evidence of short-term symptomatic benefits with acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. MCI is an important clinical problem, which clinicians can expect to face with increasing frequency. The essentials of management include a thorough assessment directed at etiological determination and counseling and judicious use of available therapeutics. PMID: 16085780

Then the med data:

NeurologyVolume 64 • Number 9 • May 10, 2005

APOE genotype, cholesterol level, lipid-lowering treatment, and dementia

The Three-City Study

"As in other studies, [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] we did observe an association between high cholesterol level and higher prevalence of dementia. Studies have suggested interactions between plasma cholesterol, APOE genotype, and dementia. [12] [14] [15] [17] [18] In the 3C Study, we did observe that APOE genotype modified the relationship between cholesterol level and dementia (although the interaction was not significant). The effect of hyperlipidemia was associated with increased prevalence of dementia only in non-e4 carriers."

Large observational prospective studies and randomized trials are needed to confirm the effect of statin and other LLAs {lipid-lowering agents} on the risk of dementia and to explore the impact of dosage and duration of therapy. Additional research is also needed to further delineate the LLAs’ central mechanism of action that could lead to dementia prevention.

Regards.

Re: [ ] choline>>At 06:58 PM 1/16/2006, you wrote:>> From USDA choline.mdb:>>Notice raw egg yolk is highest in phosphatidylcholine>>Egg, yolk, raw, fresh 634.1 mg>>>Hi. One tablespoon of lecithin granules (from soy) would give more >like 1,500 mg of PC, plus p-ethanolamine, p-inositol and a little >p-serine (along with ALA and LA). Also, the choline in lecithin is >of the type polyenolphoshpatidylcholine (PPC). I don't know which >kind is in eggs, though IIRC the word 'lecithin' is said to come >from the Greek for "egg yolk".>>Also, phosphatides contains arachidonic acid, though I believe it >can be displaced by Omega-3's.>>

[Guest guest]

Here's what Oregon (Linus ing's place) has for choline RDA

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/choline/#rda

Adequate Intake (AI) for Choline

Life stage

Age

Males (mg/day)

Females

Infants

0-6 months

125

125

Infants

7-12 months

150

150

Children

1-3 years

200

200

Children

4-8 years

250

250

Children

9-13 years

375

375

Adolescents

14-18 years

550

400

Adults

19 years and older

550

425

Pregnancy

All ages

-

450

Breastfeeding

All ages

-

550

AND:

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309065542/html/390.html

"Choline functions as a precursor for acetylcholine, phospholipids, and the methyl donor betaine. The primary criterion used to estimate the Adequate Intake (AI) for choline is the prevention of liver damage as assessed by measuring serum alanine aminotransferase levels. The AI for adults is 550 mg/day of choline for men and 425 mg/day for women. There are no nationally representative estimates of the intake of choline from food or food supplements. Choline in the diet is available as free choline or is bound as esters such as phosphocholine, glycerophosphocholine, sphingomyelin, or phosphatidylcholine. The critical adverse effect from high intake of choline is hypotension, with corroborative evidence on cholinergic side effects (e.g., sweating and diarrhea) and fishy body odor. The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for adults is 3.5 g/day."

Might be hard to get without wheat bran (include the betaine) or 2 oz egg yolks.

Regards.

Re: [ ] choline

Like how much lecithin do we need?

AND:

"The study builds upon previous USF/VA research showing that diets enriched with blueberries, spinach or spirulina reversed normal age-related declines in memory and learning in old rats. " {I may not be able to eat that many blueberries.}

[Guest guest]

Here's what Oregon (Linus ing's place) has for choline RDA

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/choline/#rda

Adequate Intake (AI) for Choline

Life stage

Age

Males (mg/day)

Females

Infants

0-6 months

125

125

Infants

7-12 months

150

150

Children

1-3 years

200

200

Children

4-8 years

250

250

Children

9-13 years

375

375

Adolescents

14-18 years

550

400

Adults

19 years and older

550

425

Pregnancy

All ages

-

450

Breastfeeding

All ages

-

550

AND:

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309065542/html/390.html

"Choline functions as a precursor for acetylcholine, phospholipids, and the methyl donor betaine. The primary criterion used to estimate the Adequate Intake (AI) for choline is the prevention of liver damage as assessed by measuring serum alanine aminotransferase levels. The AI for adults is 550 mg/day of choline for men and 425 mg/day for women. There are no nationally representative estimates of the intake of choline from food or food supplements. Choline in the diet is available as free choline or is bound as esters such as phosphocholine, glycerophosphocholine, sphingomyelin, or phosphatidylcholine. The critical adverse effect from high intake of choline is hypotension, with corroborative evidence on cholinergic side effects (e.g., sweating and diarrhea) and fishy body odor. The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for adults is 3.5 g/day."

Might be hard to get without wheat bran (include the betaine) or 2 oz egg yolks.

Regards.

Re: [ ] choline

Like how much lecithin do we need?

AND:

"The study builds upon previous USF/VA research showing that diets enriched with blueberries, spinach or spirulina reversed normal age-related declines in memory and learning in old rats. " {I may not be able to eat that many blueberries.}