Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I know it is debated, but I personally was healed with the help of prayer. I was paralyzed neck down from a car accident and through God and prayer, I know can walk without help. I also was having up to 10 seizures a day, was prayed over (medication did not work-tried them all) and immediately after being prayed over, I stopped having them. JasmynOn 1/21/06, Logan <loganruns73@...> wrote: Faith & Healing Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in journals and med schools, more Americans ask for doctors' prayers http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I know it is debated, but I personally was healed with the help of prayer. I was paralyzed neck down from a car accident and through God and prayer, I know can walk without help. I also was having up to 10 seizures a day, was prayed over (medication did not work-tried them all) and immediately after being prayed over, I stopped having them. JasmynOn 1/21/06, Logan <loganruns73@...> wrote: Faith & Healing Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in journals and med schools, more Americans ask for doctors' prayers http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I have a problem with this anecdote. For every person who claims to have been healed by God or prayer, there are many who haven't been (despite having been prayed for). I also resent it when people who have narrow escapes from death, illness, whatever, attribute their good fortune to God . What about those people who weren't saved?? Shall they attribute their bad fortune to God too? on 1/22/2006 5:49 PM, Jasmyn at jazzzys@... wrote: I know it is debated, but I personally was healed with the help of prayer. I was paralyzed neck down from a car accident and through God and prayer, I know can walk without help. I also was having up to 10 seizures a day, was prayed over (medication did not work-tried them all) and immediately after being prayed over, I stopped having them. Jasmyn On 1/21/06, Logan <loganruns73@...> wrote: Faith & Healing Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in journals and med schools, more Americans ask for doctors' prayers http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I have a problem with this anecdote. For every person who claims to have been healed by God or prayer, there are many who haven't been (despite having been prayed for). I also resent it when people who have narrow escapes from death, illness, whatever, attribute their good fortune to God . What about those people who weren't saved?? Shall they attribute their bad fortune to God too? on 1/22/2006 5:49 PM, Jasmyn at jazzzys@... wrote: I know it is debated, but I personally was healed with the help of prayer. I was paralyzed neck down from a car accident and through God and prayer, I know can walk without help. I also was having up to 10 seizures a day, was prayed over (medication did not work-tried them all) and immediately after being prayed over, I stopped having them. Jasmyn On 1/21/06, Logan <loganruns73@...> wrote: Faith & Healing Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in journals and med schools, more Americans ask for doctors' prayers http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 >> more Americans ask for doctors' prayers Popularity does not equate to " proof " (or anything else but popularity). For instance, in the supplement world, people spend billions on supplements that have been shown to be worthless. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 >> more Americans ask for doctors' prayers Popularity does not equate to " proof " (or anything else but popularity). For instance, in the supplement world, people spend billions on supplements that have been shown to be worthless. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi Jasmyn: It is good to hear of your good fortune. It is, I believe, well established that some medical doctors given patients with a well documented illness, will consistently cure considerably more of them than other doctors applying exactly the same treatments to another 100 patients with precisely the same condition. It is believed to have something to do with the doctor's ability to instill in the patient a profound conviction that the doctor will indeed succeed in curing the patient. So I have no trouble believing that having a profound conviction about one god or another may also have the power to heal problems that are psychosomatic in nature. And also that some problems that show all the outward appearances of being physical in nature are in fact psychosomatic. Similarly, I believe morale has important effects on immune response. But in order to persuade me that someone was cured of a problem that is not psychosomatic, or a condition for which immune function is irrelevant, I would need to see VERY persuasive evidence (X-rays, or whatever), assessed by physicians highly qualified in their field. Of course some animals can regenerate lost limbs, and it is conceivable some humans may have mutations that endow them with higher regeneration capabilities than the rest of us. jmo, fwiw Rodney. > > > > Faith & Healing > > > > Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in > > journals and med schools, more Americans ask for > > doctors' prayers > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi Jasmyn: It is good to hear of your good fortune. It is, I believe, well established that some medical doctors given patients with a well documented illness, will consistently cure considerably more of them than other doctors applying exactly the same treatments to another 100 patients with precisely the same condition. It is believed to have something to do with the doctor's ability to instill in the patient a profound conviction that the doctor will indeed succeed in curing the patient. So I have no trouble believing that having a profound conviction about one god or another may also have the power to heal problems that are psychosomatic in nature. And also that some problems that show all the outward appearances of being physical in nature are in fact psychosomatic. Similarly, I believe morale has important effects on immune response. But in order to persuade me that someone was cured of a problem that is not psychosomatic, or a condition for which immune function is irrelevant, I would need to see VERY persuasive evidence (X-rays, or whatever), assessed by physicians highly qualified in their field. Of course some animals can regenerate lost limbs, and it is conceivable some humans may have mutations that endow them with higher regeneration capabilities than the rest of us. jmo, fwiw Rodney. > > > > Faith & Healing > > > > Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in > > journals and med schools, more Americans ask for > > doctors' prayers > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 >>> more Americans ask for doctors' prayers > > Popularity does not equate to " proof " (or anything else but popularity). The popularity was the point, not that that popularity is somehow proof of prayer's effectiveness. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 >>> more Americans ask for doctors' prayers > > Popularity does not equate to " proof " (or anything else but popularity). The popularity was the point, not that that popularity is somehow proof of prayer's effectiveness. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 >I have a problem with this anecdote. For every person who claims to have > been healed by God or prayer, there are many who haven't been (despite > having been prayed for). Citations? > on 1/22/2006 5:49 PM, Jasmyn at jazzzys@... wrote: > > I know it is debated, but I personally was healed with the help of prayer. > I was paralyzed neck down from a car accident and through God and prayer, > I > know can walk without help. I also was having up to 10 seizures a day, > was > prayed over (medication did not work-tried them all) and immediately after > being prayed over, I stopped having them. > Jasmyn > > On 1/21/06, Logan <loganruns73@...> wrote: > Faith & Healing > > Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in > journals and med schools, more Americans ask for > doctors' prayers > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 >I have a problem with this anecdote. For every person who claims to have > been healed by God or prayer, there are many who haven't been (despite > having been prayed for). Citations? > on 1/22/2006 5:49 PM, Jasmyn at jazzzys@... wrote: > > I know it is debated, but I personally was healed with the help of prayer. > I was paralyzed neck down from a car accident and through God and prayer, > I > know can walk without help. I also was having up to 10 seizures a day, > was > prayed over (medication did not work-tried them all) and immediately after > being prayed over, I stopped having them. > Jasmyn > > On 1/21/06, Logan <loganruns73@...> wrote: > Faith & Healing > > Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in > journals and med schools, more Americans ask for > doctors' prayers > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 >I have a problem with this anecdote. For every person who claims to have > been healed by God or prayer, there are many who haven't been (despite > having been prayed for). >>Citations? Australas Psychiatry. 2004 Dec;12(4):386-9. Related Articles, Links Pilot study investigating the effect of intercessory prayer in the treatment of child psychiatric disorders. Mathai J, Bourne A. Royal Children's Hospital Mental Health Service, Parkville, Vic., Australia. john.mathai@... OBJECTIVE: To investigate whether intercessory prayer had an effect on the outcomes of a group of children with psychiatric conditions, using a triple blind randomized study design. CONCLUSION: This study was unable to show any additional benefits for patients who received intercessory prayer compared to those who received treatment as usual. Altern Ther Health Med. 1997 Nov;3(6):79-86. Related Articles, Links Intercessory prayer in the treatment of alcohol abuse and dependence: a pilot investigation. SR, Tonigan JS, WR, Corner S, Kahlich L. University of New Mexico, USA. OBJECTIVE: To conduct a pilot study of the effect of intercessory prayer on patients entering treatment for alcohol abuse or dependence. DESIGN: In addition to standard treatment, 40 patients admitted to a public substance abuse treatment facility for treatment of alcohol problems who consented to participate were randomized to receive or not receive intercessory prayer (double-blind) by outside volunteers. Assessments were conducted at baseline, 3 months, and 6 months. RESULTS: No differences were found between prayer intervention and nonintervention groups on alcohol consumption. Compared with a normative group of patients treated at the same facility participants in the prayer study experienced a delay in drinking reduction. Those who reported at baseline that a family member or friend was already praying for them were found to be drinking significantly more at 6 months than were those who reported being unaware of anyone praying for them. Greater frequency of prayer by the participants themselves was associated with less drinking, but only at months 2 and 3. CONCLUSION: Intercessory prayer did not demonstrate clinical benefit in the treatment of alcohol abuse and dependence under these study conditions. Prayer may be a complex phenomenon with many interacting variables. Mayo Clin Proc. 2001 Dec;76(12):1192-8. Related Articles, Links Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a coronary care unit population: a randomized controlled trial. Aviles JM, Whelan SE, Hernke DA, BA, Kenny KE, O'Fallon WM, Kopecky SL. Mayo Physician Alliance for Clinical Trials Coordinating Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 55902, USA. OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of intercessory prayer, a widely practiced complementary therapy, on cardiovascular disease progression after hospital discharge. PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this randomized controlled trial conducted between 1997 and 1999, a total of 799 coronary care unit patients were randomized at hospital discharge to the intercessory prayer group or to the control group. Intercessory prayer, ie, prayer by 1 or more persons on behalf of another, was administered at least once a week for 26 weeks by 5 intercessors per patient. The primary end point after 26 weeks was any of the following: death, cardiac arrest, rehospitalization for cardiovascular disease, coronary revascularization, or an emergency department visit for cardiovascular disease. Patients were divided into a high-risk group based on the presence of any of 5 risk factors (age = or >70 years, diabetes mellitus, prior myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, or peripheral vascular disease) or a low-risk group (absence of risk factors) for subsequent primary events. RESULTS: At 26 weeks, a primary end point had occurred in 25.6% of the intercessory prayer group and 29.3% of the control group (odds ratio [OR], 0.83 [95% confidence interval (CI), 0.60-1.14]; P=.25). Among high-risk patients, 31.0% in the prayer group vs 33.3% in the control group (OR, 0.90 [95% CI, 0.60-1.34]; P=.60) experienced a primary end point. Among low-risk patients, a primary end point occurred in 17.0% in the prayer group vs 24.1% in the control group (OR, 0.65 [95% CI, 0.20-1.36]; P=.12). CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit. 1: Altern Ther Health Med. 2001 Sep-Oct;7(5):42-52. Related Articles, Links The effects of intercessory prayer, positive visualization, and expectancy on the well-being of kidney dialysis patients. s WJ, Conti JM, Sireci SG. School Psychology Program, School of Education, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003, USA. shamrock@... CONTEXT: Little replicable empirical evidence on the effectiveness of prayer is available. OBJECTIVE: To explore the effect of intercessory prayer, positive visualization, and outcome expectancy on a wide range of medical and psychological measures in critically ill patients. DESIGN: 2 x 3 (expectancy x treatment) factorial study. PARTICIPANTS: 95 adult male and female volunteer hemodialysis subjects with end-stage renal disease from an outpatient clinic in Miami, Fla. INTERVENTION: Participants were randomly assigned to 1 of the 6 treatment conditions. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: A total of 20 dependent measures (10 medically based and 10 psychological) were used to assess the subjects' overall well-being. Analysis of covariance was used to control for pre-treatment differences between groups. RESULTS: Subjects who expected to receive intercessory prayer reported feeling significantly better than did those who expected to receive positive visualization (F1.93 = 5.42; P < .02). No other statistically significant main effects or interactions were found for either expectancy, intercessory prayer, or positive visualization on the remaining dependent measures. Analysis of effect sizes on all dependent measures failed to indicate even a small magnitude of effect for intercessory prayer as contrasted with expectancy on the medical or psychological variables. CONCLUSIONS: The effects of intercessory prayer and transpersonal positive visualization cannot be distinguished from the effect of expectancy. Therefore, those 2 interventions do not appear to be effective treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 >I have a problem with this anecdote. For every person who claims to have > been healed by God or prayer, there are many who haven't been (despite > having been prayed for). >>Citations? Australas Psychiatry. 2004 Dec;12(4):386-9. Related Articles, Links Pilot study investigating the effect of intercessory prayer in the treatment of child psychiatric disorders. Mathai J, Bourne A. Royal Children's Hospital Mental Health Service, Parkville, Vic., Australia. john.mathai@... OBJECTIVE: To investigate whether intercessory prayer had an effect on the outcomes of a group of children with psychiatric conditions, using a triple blind randomized study design. CONCLUSION: This study was unable to show any additional benefits for patients who received intercessory prayer compared to those who received treatment as usual. Altern Ther Health Med. 1997 Nov;3(6):79-86. Related Articles, Links Intercessory prayer in the treatment of alcohol abuse and dependence: a pilot investigation. SR, Tonigan JS, WR, Corner S, Kahlich L. University of New Mexico, USA. OBJECTIVE: To conduct a pilot study of the effect of intercessory prayer on patients entering treatment for alcohol abuse or dependence. DESIGN: In addition to standard treatment, 40 patients admitted to a public substance abuse treatment facility for treatment of alcohol problems who consented to participate were randomized to receive or not receive intercessory prayer (double-blind) by outside volunteers. Assessments were conducted at baseline, 3 months, and 6 months. RESULTS: No differences were found between prayer intervention and nonintervention groups on alcohol consumption. Compared with a normative group of patients treated at the same facility participants in the prayer study experienced a delay in drinking reduction. Those who reported at baseline that a family member or friend was already praying for them were found to be drinking significantly more at 6 months than were those who reported being unaware of anyone praying for them. Greater frequency of prayer by the participants themselves was associated with less drinking, but only at months 2 and 3. CONCLUSION: Intercessory prayer did not demonstrate clinical benefit in the treatment of alcohol abuse and dependence under these study conditions. Prayer may be a complex phenomenon with many interacting variables. Mayo Clin Proc. 2001 Dec;76(12):1192-8. Related Articles, Links Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a coronary care unit population: a randomized controlled trial. Aviles JM, Whelan SE, Hernke DA, BA, Kenny KE, O'Fallon WM, Kopecky SL. Mayo Physician Alliance for Clinical Trials Coordinating Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 55902, USA. OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of intercessory prayer, a widely practiced complementary therapy, on cardiovascular disease progression after hospital discharge. PATIENTS AND METHODS: In this randomized controlled trial conducted between 1997 and 1999, a total of 799 coronary care unit patients were randomized at hospital discharge to the intercessory prayer group or to the control group. Intercessory prayer, ie, prayer by 1 or more persons on behalf of another, was administered at least once a week for 26 weeks by 5 intercessors per patient. The primary end point after 26 weeks was any of the following: death, cardiac arrest, rehospitalization for cardiovascular disease, coronary revascularization, or an emergency department visit for cardiovascular disease. Patients were divided into a high-risk group based on the presence of any of 5 risk factors (age = or >70 years, diabetes mellitus, prior myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, or peripheral vascular disease) or a low-risk group (absence of risk factors) for subsequent primary events. RESULTS: At 26 weeks, a primary end point had occurred in 25.6% of the intercessory prayer group and 29.3% of the control group (odds ratio [OR], 0.83 [95% confidence interval (CI), 0.60-1.14]; P=.25). Among high-risk patients, 31.0% in the prayer group vs 33.3% in the control group (OR, 0.90 [95% CI, 0.60-1.34]; P=.60) experienced a primary end point. Among low-risk patients, a primary end point occurred in 17.0% in the prayer group vs 24.1% in the control group (OR, 0.65 [95% CI, 0.20-1.36]; P=.12). CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit. 1: Altern Ther Health Med. 2001 Sep-Oct;7(5):42-52. Related Articles, Links The effects of intercessory prayer, positive visualization, and expectancy on the well-being of kidney dialysis patients. s WJ, Conti JM, Sireci SG. School Psychology Program, School of Education, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003, USA. shamrock@... CONTEXT: Little replicable empirical evidence on the effectiveness of prayer is available. OBJECTIVE: To explore the effect of intercessory prayer, positive visualization, and outcome expectancy on a wide range of medical and psychological measures in critically ill patients. DESIGN: 2 x 3 (expectancy x treatment) factorial study. PARTICIPANTS: 95 adult male and female volunteer hemodialysis subjects with end-stage renal disease from an outpatient clinic in Miami, Fla. INTERVENTION: Participants were randomly assigned to 1 of the 6 treatment conditions. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: A total of 20 dependent measures (10 medically based and 10 psychological) were used to assess the subjects' overall well-being. Analysis of covariance was used to control for pre-treatment differences between groups. RESULTS: Subjects who expected to receive intercessory prayer reported feeling significantly better than did those who expected to receive positive visualization (F1.93 = 5.42; P < .02). No other statistically significant main effects or interactions were found for either expectancy, intercessory prayer, or positive visualization on the remaining dependent measures. Analysis of effect sizes on all dependent measures failed to indicate even a small magnitude of effect for intercessory prayer as contrasted with expectancy on the medical or psychological variables. CONCLUSIONS: The effects of intercessory prayer and transpersonal positive visualization cannot be distinguished from the effect of expectancy. Therefore, those 2 interventions do not appear to be effective treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Precisely. on 1/22/2006 9:19 PM, Al Young at acyoung@... wrote: >I have a problem with this anecdote. For every person who claims to have > been healed by God or prayer, there are many who haven't been (despite > having been prayed for). Citations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Precisely. on 1/22/2006 9:19 PM, Al Young at acyoung@... wrote: >I have a problem with this anecdote. For every person who claims to have > been healed by God or prayer, there are many who haven't been (despite > having been prayed for). Citations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 I never expected anyone to really believe me. After all, the doctors were quite amazed when I walked back into the hospital. They had told my family that the damage to my brain was so severe there was no chance of me walking again. (let alone talk) I was given the weekend away from the hospital so I could be with family. It was there that I heard a voice tell me to stand. Do I beleive this is a result of prayer and God hearing the prayers of many people? Yes. I do not expect you to believe me. All I know is, is that if you were me, how could you even doubt prayer? As for others who have not been healed...I can walk. I walk with a limp. I can not run. My healing was not total. Does God answer all prayers? Yes. Just sometimes it is not how we'd like. (He does say no sometimes too) Some people are not born perfect (in response to one email I received) Is this Gods will? No, but we bring this upon ourselves. We don't always follow His rules and bad things happen. Oh...I thought Id mention that I was in a serious accident. Half my brain died in it and I flatlined on the operating table. That I even made it through it all was a miracle enough. That I am walking and have finished high school (and college) the doctors when they see me are still amazed. (14 years laetr) JasmynOn 1/22/06, Rodney <perspect1111@...> wrote: Hi Jasmyn: It is good to hear of your good fortune. It is, I believe, well established that some medical doctors given patients with a well documented illness, will consistently cure considerably more of them than other doctors applying exactly the same treatments to another 100 patients with precisely the same condition. It is believed to have something to do with the doctor's ability to instill in the patient a profound conviction that the doctor will indeed succeed in curing the patient. So I have no trouble believing that having a profound conviction about one god or another may also have the power to heal problems that are psychosomatic in nature. And also that some problems that show all the outward appearances of being physical in nature are in fact psychosomatic. Similarly, I believe morale has important effects on immune response. But in order to persuade me that someone was cured of a problem that is not psychosomatic, or a condition for which immune function is irrelevant, I would need to see VERY persuasive evidence (X-rays, or whatever), assessed by physicians highly qualified in their field. Of course some animals can regenerate lost limbs, and it is conceivable some humans may have mutations that endow them with higher regeneration capabilities than the rest of us. jmo, fwiw Rodney. > > > > Faith & Healing > > > > Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in > > journals and med schools, more Americans ask for > > doctors' prayers > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 I never expected anyone to really believe me. After all, the doctors were quite amazed when I walked back into the hospital. They had told my family that the damage to my brain was so severe there was no chance of me walking again. (let alone talk) I was given the weekend away from the hospital so I could be with family. It was there that I heard a voice tell me to stand. Do I beleive this is a result of prayer and God hearing the prayers of many people? Yes. I do not expect you to believe me. All I know is, is that if you were me, how could you even doubt prayer? As for others who have not been healed...I can walk. I walk with a limp. I can not run. My healing was not total. Does God answer all prayers? Yes. Just sometimes it is not how we'd like. (He does say no sometimes too) Some people are not born perfect (in response to one email I received) Is this Gods will? No, but we bring this upon ourselves. We don't always follow His rules and bad things happen. Oh...I thought Id mention that I was in a serious accident. Half my brain died in it and I flatlined on the operating table. That I even made it through it all was a miracle enough. That I am walking and have finished high school (and college) the doctors when they see me are still amazed. (14 years laetr) JasmynOn 1/22/06, Rodney <perspect1111@...> wrote: Hi Jasmyn: It is good to hear of your good fortune. It is, I believe, well established that some medical doctors given patients with a well documented illness, will consistently cure considerably more of them than other doctors applying exactly the same treatments to another 100 patients with precisely the same condition. It is believed to have something to do with the doctor's ability to instill in the patient a profound conviction that the doctor will indeed succeed in curing the patient. So I have no trouble believing that having a profound conviction about one god or another may also have the power to heal problems that are psychosomatic in nature. And also that some problems that show all the outward appearances of being physical in nature are in fact psychosomatic. Similarly, I believe morale has important effects on immune response. But in order to persuade me that someone was cured of a problem that is not psychosomatic, or a condition for which immune function is irrelevant, I would need to see VERY persuasive evidence (X-rays, or whatever), assessed by physicians highly qualified in their field. Of course some animals can regenerate lost limbs, and it is conceivable some humans may have mutations that endow them with higher regeneration capabilities than the rest of us. jmo, fwiw Rodney. > > > > Faith & Healing > > > > Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in > > journals and med schools, more Americans ask for > > doctors' prayers > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 I think you'll find the vast number of us here would be in the camp of the abstracts sent by Jeff Novick: As one them succintly put it, " Conclusions: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit. " We place most of our faith in evidence validated by many controlled experiments. On the other hand, as Kinky Friedman, possibly the next governor of Texas, says " May the God of your choice bless you, " he says. " Criticize me all you want, but don't circumcise me anymore! " Mike > > > > > > > > Faith & Healing > > > > > > > > Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in > > > > journals and med schools, more Americans ask for > > > > doctors' prayers > > > > > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 I think you'll find the vast number of us here would be in the camp of the abstracts sent by Jeff Novick: As one them succintly put it, " Conclusions: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit. " We place most of our faith in evidence validated by many controlled experiments. On the other hand, as Kinky Friedman, possibly the next governor of Texas, says " May the God of your choice bless you, " he says. " Criticize me all you want, but don't circumcise me anymore! " Mike > > > > > > > > Faith & Healing > > > > > > > > Can religion improve health? While the debate rages in > > > > journals and med schools, more Americans ask for > > > > doctors' prayers > > > > > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3339654/site/newsweek/ > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Your story is truly amazing and I applaud you for having the courage to report it here. But it's presumptuous for anyone to state with such certainty and conviction that they understand the mind of God (for those that believe in God). Such concepts have been debated for centuries (without unanimous agreement) by some of the most brilliant philosophers who've ever lived. Your " proof while convincing to you, would not be accepted in any scientific forum; and there are plenty of stories of other " spontaneous healings " (without claims of divine intervention). Nevertheless, these kinds of stories are fascinating. on 1/22/2006 10:13 PM, Jasmyn at jazzzys@... wrote: I never expected anyone to really believe me. After all, the doctors were quite amazed when I walked back into the hospital. They had told my family that the damage to my brain was so severe there was no chance of me walking again. (let alone talk) I was given the weekend away from the hospital so I could be with family. It was there that I heard a voice tell me to stand. Do I beleive this is a result of prayer and God hearing the prayers of many people? Yes. I do not expect you to believe me. All I know is, is that if you were me, how could you even doubt prayer? As for others who have not been healed...I can walk. I walk with a limp. I can not run. My healing was not total. Does God answer all prayers? Yes. Just sometimes it is not how we'd like. (He does say no sometimes too) Some people are not born perfect (in response to one email I received) Is this Gods will? No, but we bring this upon ourselves. We don't always follow His rules and bad things happen. Oh...I thought Id mention that I was in a serious accident. Half my brain died in it and I flatlined on the operating table. That I even made it through it all was a miracle enough. That I am walking and have finished high school (and college) the doctors when they see me are still amazed. (14 years laetr) Jasmyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Your story is truly amazing and I applaud you for having the courage to report it here. But it's presumptuous for anyone to state with such certainty and conviction that they understand the mind of God (for those that believe in God). Such concepts have been debated for centuries (without unanimous agreement) by some of the most brilliant philosophers who've ever lived. Your " proof while convincing to you, would not be accepted in any scientific forum; and there are plenty of stories of other " spontaneous healings " (without claims of divine intervention). Nevertheless, these kinds of stories are fascinating. on 1/22/2006 10:13 PM, Jasmyn at jazzzys@... wrote: I never expected anyone to really believe me. After all, the doctors were quite amazed when I walked back into the hospital. They had told my family that the damage to my brain was so severe there was no chance of me walking again. (let alone talk) I was given the weekend away from the hospital so I could be with family. It was there that I heard a voice tell me to stand. Do I beleive this is a result of prayer and God hearing the prayers of many people? Yes. I do not expect you to believe me. All I know is, is that if you were me, how could you even doubt prayer? As for others who have not been healed...I can walk. I walk with a limp. I can not run. My healing was not total. Does God answer all prayers? Yes. Just sometimes it is not how we'd like. (He does say no sometimes too) Some people are not born perfect (in response to one email I received) Is this Gods will? No, but we bring this upon ourselves. We don't always follow His rules and bad things happen. Oh...I thought Id mention that I was in a serious accident. Half my brain died in it and I flatlined on the operating table. That I even made it through it all was a miracle enough. That I am walking and have finished high school (and college) the doctors when they see me are still amazed. (14 years laetr) Jasmyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Its not that i dont think prayer and faith have value.... But, like with most other things, there is so much fraud, deception and deceit, especially in the field of " faith healing " that we would need some really good evidence to substantiate it. Extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary proof, not less. No one has ever been able to beat the Amazing Randi's 1 million dollar challenge to perform any one of these therapies or healings under controlled conditons. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html Three weeks ago, the most famous psychic of today, Slyvia Browne was on the Norry show (formerly the Art Bell show) and during the show there was an update on the lost miners, saying they hadnt found them yet, and Slyia responded " I know they are alive, I can feel their energy'.... 2 hours later, there was another update saying they had found the miners and they were dead. Slyvia was still in the studio on the show, and tried to cover up her mistake. You can read the story here.. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,180681,00.html Many claims of healing when thouroughly investigated have turned out to be false. Either the intial diagnosis was wrong, or there was no formal conclusive testing done before or after, or the disease re occured and killed the patient shortly after the miraculous healing. There was a famous book in the 70s called " recalled by life " by Sattilaro, M.D., a Philadelphia physician, who claimed that he was completely healed by cancer thru a macrobiotic diet. It was a huge seller. Only problem, he died of the same disease a few years later, and that seemed to not get the same coverage or press. I am glad you are doing better. And, I dont doubt that your experience and perception of the event is accurate. I am just not sure that the it actually happened that way you experienced or perceived it. Do you have accurate medical records from before and after that document the problem, the treatments, and the healing ? If so, I would love to see them. If we win the million dollars, you can keep it all. This is an interesting article on " faith healing " http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html Regards Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Its not that i dont think prayer and faith have value.... But, like with most other things, there is so much fraud, deception and deceit, especially in the field of " faith healing " that we would need some really good evidence to substantiate it. Extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary proof, not less. No one has ever been able to beat the Amazing Randi's 1 million dollar challenge to perform any one of these therapies or healings under controlled conditons. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html Three weeks ago, the most famous psychic of today, Slyvia Browne was on the Norry show (formerly the Art Bell show) and during the show there was an update on the lost miners, saying they hadnt found them yet, and Slyia responded " I know they are alive, I can feel their energy'.... 2 hours later, there was another update saying they had found the miners and they were dead. Slyvia was still in the studio on the show, and tried to cover up her mistake. You can read the story here.. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,180681,00.html Many claims of healing when thouroughly investigated have turned out to be false. Either the intial diagnosis was wrong, or there was no formal conclusive testing done before or after, or the disease re occured and killed the patient shortly after the miraculous healing. There was a famous book in the 70s called " recalled by life " by Sattilaro, M.D., a Philadelphia physician, who claimed that he was completely healed by cancer thru a macrobiotic diet. It was a huge seller. Only problem, he died of the same disease a few years later, and that seemed to not get the same coverage or press. I am glad you are doing better. And, I dont doubt that your experience and perception of the event is accurate. I am just not sure that the it actually happened that way you experienced or perceived it. Do you have accurate medical records from before and after that document the problem, the treatments, and the healing ? If so, I would love to see them. If we win the million dollars, you can keep it all. This is an interesting article on " faith healing " http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html Regards Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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