Re: coffeRe: Re: Coffee toxic

[Guest guest]

Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be classified as a toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.

We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers, heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65 yrs). So it can't be really toxic, like sudden death.

Is it ochratoxin A?

Crit Rev Toxicol. 2005 Jan;35(1):33-60.

Ochratoxin A: the continuing enigma.O'Brien E, Dietrich DR.Environmental Toxicology, University of Konstanz, Germany. evelyn.obrien@...The mycotoxin ochratoxin A (OTA) has been linked to the genesis of several disease states in both animals and humans. It has been described as nephrotoxic, carcinogenic, teratogenic, immunotoxic, and hepatotoxic in laboratory and domestic animals, as well as being thought to be the probable causal agent in the development of nephropathies (Balkan Endemic Nephropathy, BEN and Chronic Interstitial Nephropathy, CIN) and urothelial tumors in humans. As a result, several international agencies are currently attempting to define safe legal limits for OTA concentration in foodstuffs (e.g., grain, meat, wine, and coffee), in processed foods, and in animal fodder. In order to achieve this goal, an accurate risk assessment of OTA toxicity including mechanistic and epidemiological studies must be carried out. Ochratoxin has been suggested by various researchers to mediate its toxic effects via induction of apoptosis, disruption of mitochondrial respiration and/or the cytoskeleton, or, indeed, via the generation of DNA adducts. Thus, it is still unclear if the predominant mechanism is of a genotoxic or an epigenetic nature. One aspect that is clear, however, is that the toxicity of OTA is subject to and characterized by large species- and sex-specific differences, as well as an apparently strict structure-activity relationship. These considerations could be crucial in the investigation of OTA-mediated toxicity. Furthermore, the use of appropriate in vivo and in vitro model systems appears to be vital in the generation of relevant experimental data. The intention of this review is to collate and discuss the currently available data on OTA-mediated toxicity with particular focus on their relevance for the in vivo situation, and also to suggest possible future strategies for unlocking the secrets of ochratoxin A.PMID: 15742902

RESULTS: After adjustment for potential confounding factors (age, body mass index, systolic blood pressure, occupational, commuting and leisure time physical activity, alcohol and tea drinking, smoking), coffee consumption was significantly and inversely associated with fasting glucose, two-hour plasma glucose, and fasting insulin in both men and women. Coffee consumption was significantly and inversely associated with impaired fasting glucose, impaired glucose regulation, and hyperinsulinemia among both men and women and with isolated impaired glucose tolerance among women. CONCLUSIONS: In this cross-sectional analysis, coffee showed positive effects on several glycemia markers. PMID: 16477539

CONCLUSION: Our research confirmed the hypothesis that coffee or alcohol consumption is a potential trigger for sudden cardiac death in persons with risk factors for ischemic heart disease.PMID: 15578815

Maybe it's filtered coffee?

Based on changes in consumption in milk fat, fat from meat and margarine, and taken into consideration the change from boiled to filtered coffee the estimated reduction in serum cholesterol in the population is in the order of 0.8 mmol/l. PMID: 15195160

Old but still important, IMO:

Contrary to common belief, the published literature provides little evidence that coffee and/or caffeine in typical dosages increases the risk of infarction, sudden death or arrhythmia. PMID: 7881818

Regards.

[ ] Re: Cocoa Consumption: a sobering study

Yes, truly amazing findings.I wonder why they are so few studies directed toward an evaluation oftheobromine toxicity (except in dogs). After all it is a stimulantclosely related to caffeine. We know caffeine to be toxic. Economicreasons? One such study I found, out of india, ironically concludesthat this important compound of cacoa is toxic to the heart muscle.What's the good of lowering blood pressure through consumption ofcocoa when there are so many other ways, if it weakens the heartmuscle? The ultimate effects of this practice are not likely to showfor many years.http://www.ijp-online.com/article.asp?issn=0253-7613;year=1998;volume=30;issue=5;spage=339;epage=342;aulast=Eteng;type=0--- In , "Rodney" <perspect1111@...> wrote:>> Hi folks:>> It looks like this is the study:>> "Cocoa intake, blood pressure, and cardiovascular mortality: the> Zutphen Elderly Study.>> Buijsse B, Feskens EJ, Kok FJ, Kromhout D.>> Center for Nutrition and Health, National Institute for Public Health

> and the Environment, Bilthoven, and Division of Human Nutrition,> Wageningen University, Wageningen, the Netherlands.> brian.buijsse@...>> BACKGROUND: Small, short-term, intervention studies indicate that> cocoa-containing foods improve endothelial function and reduce blood> pressure. We studied whether habitual cocoa intake was cross-> sectionally related to blood pressure and prospectively related with> cardiovascular mortality. METHODS: Data used were of 470 elderly men> participating in the Zutphen Elderly Study and free of chronic> diseases at baseline. Blood pressure was measured at baseline and 5> years later, and causes of death were ascertained during 15 years of> follow-up. Habitual food consumption was assessed by the cross-check> dietary history method in 1985, 1990, and 1995. Cocoa intake was> estimated from the consumption of cocoa-containing foods. RESULTS:> One third of the men did not use cocoa at baseline. The median cocoa> intake among users was 2.11 g/d. After adjustment, the mean systolic> blood pressure in the highest tertile of cocoa intake was 3.7 mm Hg> lower (95% confidence interval [CI], -7.1 to -0.3 mm Hg; P = .03 for> trend) and the mean diastolic blood pressure was 2.1 mm Hg lower (95%> CI, -4.0 to -0.2 mm Hg; P = .03 for trend) compared with the lowest> tertile. During follow-up, 314 men died, 152 of cardiovascular> diseases. Compared with the lowest tertile of cocoa intake, the> adjusted relative risk for men in the highest tertile was 0.50 (95%> CI, 0.32-0.78; P = .004 for trend) for cardiovascular mortality and> 0.53 (95% CI, 0.39-0.72; P < .001) for all-cause mortality.> CONCLUSION: In a cohort of elderly men, cocoa intake is inversely> associated with blood pressure and 15-year cardiovascular and all-> cause mortality.">> PMID: 16505260>> Aaaaaamazing!!>> Rodney.>> > >> > Hi folks:> >> > Just 4.2 g a day of it. And it presumably included all kinds of> fat> > and sugar with it. So imagine how good the de-fatted sugar-free> > cocoa must be!> >> >> http://heart.healthcentersonline.com/newsstories/cocoaconsumershavelow> > erdiseaseriskstudy.cfm?nl=1> >> > http://snipurl.com/nce3> >> > Rodney.> >>

[Guest guest]

Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be classified as a toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.

We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers, heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65 yrs). So it can't be really toxic, like sudden death.

Is it ochratoxin A?

Crit Rev Toxicol. 2005 Jan;35(1):33-60.

Ochratoxin A: the continuing enigma.O'Brien E, Dietrich DR.Environmental Toxicology, University of Konstanz, Germany. evelyn.obrien@...The mycotoxin ochratoxin A (OTA) has been linked to the genesis of several disease states in both animals and humans. It has been described as nephrotoxic, carcinogenic, teratogenic, immunotoxic, and hepatotoxic in laboratory and domestic animals, as well as being thought to be the probable causal agent in the development of nephropathies (Balkan Endemic Nephropathy, BEN and Chronic Interstitial Nephropathy, CIN) and urothelial tumors in humans. As a result, several international agencies are currently attempting to define safe legal limits for OTA concentration in foodstuffs (e.g., grain, meat, wine, and coffee), in processed foods, and in animal fodder. In order to achieve this goal, an accurate risk assessment of OTA toxicity including mechanistic and epidemiological studies must be carried out. Ochratoxin has been suggested by various researchers to mediate its toxic effects via induction of apoptosis, disruption of mitochondrial respiration and/or the cytoskeleton, or, indeed, via the generation of DNA adducts. Thus, it is still unclear if the predominant mechanism is of a genotoxic or an epigenetic nature. One aspect that is clear, however, is that the toxicity of OTA is subject to and characterized by large species- and sex-specific differences, as well as an apparently strict structure-activity relationship. These considerations could be crucial in the investigation of OTA-mediated toxicity. Furthermore, the use of appropriate in vivo and in vitro model systems appears to be vital in the generation of relevant experimental data. The intention of this review is to collate and discuss the currently available data on OTA-mediated toxicity with particular focus on their relevance for the in vivo situation, and also to suggest possible future strategies for unlocking the secrets of ochratoxin A.PMID: 15742902

RESULTS: After adjustment for potential confounding factors (age, body mass index, systolic blood pressure, occupational, commuting and leisure time physical activity, alcohol and tea drinking, smoking), coffee consumption was significantly and inversely associated with fasting glucose, two-hour plasma glucose, and fasting insulin in both men and women. Coffee consumption was significantly and inversely associated with impaired fasting glucose, impaired glucose regulation, and hyperinsulinemia among both men and women and with isolated impaired glucose tolerance among women. CONCLUSIONS: In this cross-sectional analysis, coffee showed positive effects on several glycemia markers. PMID: 16477539

CONCLUSION: Our research confirmed the hypothesis that coffee or alcohol consumption is a potential trigger for sudden cardiac death in persons with risk factors for ischemic heart disease.PMID: 15578815

Maybe it's filtered coffee?

Based on changes in consumption in milk fat, fat from meat and margarine, and taken into consideration the change from boiled to filtered coffee the estimated reduction in serum cholesterol in the population is in the order of 0.8 mmol/l. PMID: 15195160

Old but still important, IMO:

Contrary to common belief, the published literature provides little evidence that coffee and/or caffeine in typical dosages increases the risk of infarction, sudden death or arrhythmia. PMID: 7881818

Regards.

[ ] Re: Cocoa Consumption: a sobering study

Yes, truly amazing findings.I wonder why they are so few studies directed toward an evaluation oftheobromine toxicity (except in dogs). After all it is a stimulantclosely related to caffeine. We know caffeine to be toxic. Economicreasons? One such study I found, out of india, ironically concludesthat this important compound of cacoa is toxic to the heart muscle.What's the good of lowering blood pressure through consumption ofcocoa when there are so many other ways, if it weakens the heartmuscle? The ultimate effects of this practice are not likely to showfor many years.http://www.ijp-online.com/article.asp?issn=0253-7613;year=1998;volume=30;issue=5;spage=339;epage=342;aulast=Eteng;type=0--- In , "Rodney" <perspect1111@...> wrote:>> Hi folks:>> It looks like this is the study:>> "Cocoa intake, blood pressure, and cardiovascular mortality: the> Zutphen Elderly Study.>> Buijsse B, Feskens EJ, Kok FJ, Kromhout D.>> Center for Nutrition and Health, National Institute for Public Health

> and the Environment, Bilthoven, and Division of Human Nutrition,> Wageningen University, Wageningen, the Netherlands.> brian.buijsse@...>> BACKGROUND: Small, short-term, intervention studies indicate that> cocoa-containing foods improve endothelial function and reduce blood> pressure. We studied whether habitual cocoa intake was cross-> sectionally related to blood pressure and prospectively related with> cardiovascular mortality. METHODS: Data used were of 470 elderly men> participating in the Zutphen Elderly Study and free of chronic> diseases at baseline. Blood pressure was measured at baseline and 5> years later, and causes of death were ascertained during 15 years of> follow-up. Habitual food consumption was assessed by the cross-check> dietary history method in 1985, 1990, and 1995. Cocoa intake was> estimated from the consumption of cocoa-containing foods. RESULTS:> One third of the men did not use cocoa at baseline. The median cocoa> intake among users was 2.11 g/d. After adjustment, the mean systolic> blood pressure in the highest tertile of cocoa intake was 3.7 mm Hg> lower (95% confidence interval [CI], -7.1 to -0.3 mm Hg; P = .03 for> trend) and the mean diastolic blood pressure was 2.1 mm Hg lower (95%> CI, -4.0 to -0.2 mm Hg; P = .03 for trend) compared with the lowest> tertile. During follow-up, 314 men died, 152 of cardiovascular> diseases. Compared with the lowest tertile of cocoa intake, the> adjusted relative risk for men in the highest tertile was 0.50 (95%> CI, 0.32-0.78; P = .004 for trend) for cardiovascular mortality and> 0.53 (95% CI, 0.39-0.72; P < .001) for all-cause mortality.> CONCLUSION: In a cohort of elderly men, cocoa intake is inversely> associated with blood pressure and 15-year cardiovascular and all-> cause mortality.">> PMID: 16505260>> Aaaaaamazing!!>> Rodney.>> > >> > Hi folks:> >> > Just 4.2 g a day of it. And it presumably included all kinds of> fat> > and sugar with it. So imagine how good the de-fatted sugar-free> > cocoa must be!> >> >> http://heart.healthcentersonline.com/newsstories/cocoaconsumershavelow> > erdiseaseriskstudy.cfm?nl=1> >> > http://snipurl.com/nce3> >> > Rodney.> >>

[Guest guest]

IIRC the recent report is blaming caffeine and a genetic variant on our

ability to metabolize it. FWIW caffeine can be found elsewhere in lesser

quantities also.

Add me to the list of coffee " users " , with no immediate plans to stop.

One of life's relatively low calorie pleasures.

JR

jwwright wrote:

> Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be classified as a

> toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless

> one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association

> with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in

> me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control

> that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.

>

> We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers,

> heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure

> one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65 yrs). So

> it can't be really toxic, like sudden death.

>

> Is it ochratoxin A?

> Crit Rev Toxicol. <javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Crit Rev

> Toxicol.');> 2005 Jan;35(1):33-60.

>

> *Ochratoxin A: the continuing enigma.*

> *O'Brien E*

>

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pubmed\

_Abstract & term=%22O%27Brien+E%22%5BAuthor%5D>,

> *Dietrich DR*

>

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pubmed\

_Abstract & term=%22Dietrich+DR%22%5BAuthor%5D>.

> Environmental Toxicology, University of Konstanz, Germany.

> evelyn.obrien@...

>

> The mycotoxin ochratoxin A (OTA) has been linked to the genesis of

> several disease states in both animals and humans. It has been described

> as nephrotoxic, carcinogenic, teratogenic, immunotoxic, and hepatotoxic

> in laboratory and domestic animals, as well as being thought to be the

> probable causal agent in the development of nephropathies (Balkan

> Endemic Nephropathy, BEN and Chronic Interstitial Nephropathy, CIN) and

> urothelial tumors in humans. As a result, several international agencies

> are currently attempting to define safe legal limits for OTA

> concentration in foodstuffs (e.g., grain, meat, wine, and coffee), in

> processed foods, and in animal fodder. In order to achieve this goal, an

> accurate risk assessment of OTA toxicity including mechanistic and

> epidemiological studies must be carried out. Ochratoxin has been

> suggested by various researchers to mediate its toxic effects via

> induction of apoptosis, disruption of mitochondrial respiration and/or

> the cytoskeleton, or, indeed, via the generation of DNA adducts. Thus,

> it is still unclear if the predominant mechanism is of a genotoxic or an

> epigenetic nature. One aspect that is clear, however, is that the

> toxicity of OTA is subject to and characterized by large species- and

> sex-specific differences, as well as an apparently strict

> structure-activity relationship. These considerations could be crucial

> in the investigation of OTA-mediated toxicity. Furthermore, the use of

> appropriate in vivo and in vitro model systems appears to be vital in

> the generation of relevant experimental data. The intention of this

> review is to collate and discuss the currently available data on

> OTA-mediated toxicity with particular focus on their relevance for the

> in vivo situation, and also to suggest possible future strategies for

> unlocking the secrets of ochratoxin A.

> PMID: 15742902

>

> RESULTS: After adjustment for potential confounding factors (age, body

> mass index, systolic blood pressure, occupational, commuting and leisure

> time physical activity, alcohol and tea drinking, smoking), coffee

> consumption was significantly and inversely associated with fasting

> glucose, two-hour plasma glucose, and fasting insulin in both men and

> women. Coffee consumption was significantly and inversely associated

> with impaired fasting glucose, impaired glucose regulation, and

> hyperinsulinemia among both men and women and with isolated impaired

> glucose tolerance among women. CONCLUSIONS: In this cross-sectional

> analysis, coffee showed positive effects on several glycemia markers.

> PMID: 16477539

>

> CONCLUSION: Our research confirmed the hypothesis that coffee or alcohol

> consumption is a potential trigger for sudden cardiac death in persons

> with risk factors for ischemic heart disease.PMID: 15578815

>

> Maybe it's filtered coffee?

> Based on changes in consumption in milk fat, fat from meat and

> margarine, and taken into consideration the change from boiled to

> filtered coffee the estimated reduction in serum cholesterol in the

> population is in the order of 0.8 mmol/l. PMID: 15195160

>

> Old but still important, IMO:

> Contrary to common belief, the published literature provides little

> evidence that coffee and/or caffeine in typical dosages increases the

> risk of infarction, sudden death or arrhythmia. PMID: 7881818

>

> Regards.

>

>

> * [ ] Re: Cocoa Consumption: a sobering

>> study

>>

>>

>> Yes, truly amazing findings.

>>

>> I wonder why they are so few studies directed toward an

>> evaluation of

>> theobromine toxicity (except in dogs). After all it is a stimulant

>> closely related to caffeine. We know caffeine to be toxic.

>> Economic

>> reasons? One such study I found, out of india, ironically

>> concludes

>> that this important compound of cacoa is toxic to the heart

>> muscle.

>> What's the good of lowering blood pressure through consumption of

>> cocoa when there are so many other ways, if it weakens the heart

>> muscle? The ultimate effects of this practice are not likely

>> to show

>> for many years.

>>

>>

http://www.ijp-online.com/article.asp?issn=0253-7613;year=1998;volume=30;issue=5\

;spage=339;epage=342;aulast=Eteng;type=0

>>

<http://www.ijp-online.com/article.asp?issn=0253-7613;year=1998;volume=30;issue=\

5;spage=339;epage=342;aulast=Eteng;type=0>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> > >

>> > > Hi folks:

>> > >

>> > > Just 4.2 g a day of it. And it presumably included all

>> kinds of

>> > fat

>> > > and sugar with it. So imagine how good the de-fatted

>> sugar-free

>> > > cocoa must be!

>> > >

>> > >

>> >

>>

http://heart.healthcentersonline.com/newsstories/cocoaconsumershavelow

>>

<http://heart.healthcentersonline.com/newsstories/cocoaconsumershavelow>

>> > > erdiseaseriskstudy.cfm?nl=1

>> > >

>> > > http://snipurl.com/nce3

>> > >

>> > > Rodney.

>> > >

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

IIRC the recent report is blaming caffeine and a genetic variant on our

ability to metabolize it. FWIW caffeine can be found elsewhere in lesser

quantities also.

Add me to the list of coffee " users " , with no immediate plans to stop.

One of life's relatively low calorie pleasures.

JR

jwwright wrote:

> Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be classified as a

> toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless

> one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association

> with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in

> me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control

> that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.

>

> We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers,

> heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure

> one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65 yrs). So

> it can't be really toxic, like sudden death.

>

> Is it ochratoxin A?

> Crit Rev Toxicol. <javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Crit Rev

> Toxicol.');> 2005 Jan;35(1):33-60.

>

> *Ochratoxin A: the continuing enigma.*

> *O'Brien E*

>

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pubmed\

_Abstract & term=%22O%27Brien+E%22%5BAuthor%5D>,

> *Dietrich DR*

>

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pubmed\

_Abstract & term=%22Dietrich+DR%22%5BAuthor%5D>.

> Environmental Toxicology, University of Konstanz, Germany.

> evelyn.obrien@...

>

> The mycotoxin ochratoxin A (OTA) has been linked to the genesis of

> several disease states in both animals and humans. It has been described

> as nephrotoxic, carcinogenic, teratogenic, immunotoxic, and hepatotoxic

> in laboratory and domestic animals, as well as being thought to be the

> probable causal agent in the development of nephropathies (Balkan

> Endemic Nephropathy, BEN and Chronic Interstitial Nephropathy, CIN) and

> urothelial tumors in humans. As a result, several international agencies

> are currently attempting to define safe legal limits for OTA

> concentration in foodstuffs (e.g., grain, meat, wine, and coffee), in

> processed foods, and in animal fodder. In order to achieve this goal, an

> accurate risk assessment of OTA toxicity including mechanistic and

> epidemiological studies must be carried out. Ochratoxin has been

> suggested by various researchers to mediate its toxic effects via

> induction of apoptosis, disruption of mitochondrial respiration and/or

> the cytoskeleton, or, indeed, via the generation of DNA adducts. Thus,

> it is still unclear if the predominant mechanism is of a genotoxic or an

> epigenetic nature. One aspect that is clear, however, is that the

> toxicity of OTA is subject to and characterized by large species- and

> sex-specific differences, as well as an apparently strict

> structure-activity relationship. These considerations could be crucial

> in the investigation of OTA-mediated toxicity. Furthermore, the use of

> appropriate in vivo and in vitro model systems appears to be vital in

> the generation of relevant experimental data. The intention of this

> review is to collate and discuss the currently available data on

> OTA-mediated toxicity with particular focus on their relevance for the

> in vivo situation, and also to suggest possible future strategies for

> unlocking the secrets of ochratoxin A.

> PMID: 15742902

>

> RESULTS: After adjustment for potential confounding factors (age, body

> mass index, systolic blood pressure, occupational, commuting and leisure

> time physical activity, alcohol and tea drinking, smoking), coffee

> consumption was significantly and inversely associated with fasting

> glucose, two-hour plasma glucose, and fasting insulin in both men and

> women. Coffee consumption was significantly and inversely associated

> with impaired fasting glucose, impaired glucose regulation, and

> hyperinsulinemia among both men and women and with isolated impaired

> glucose tolerance among women. CONCLUSIONS: In this cross-sectional

> analysis, coffee showed positive effects on several glycemia markers.

> PMID: 16477539

>

> CONCLUSION: Our research confirmed the hypothesis that coffee or alcohol

> consumption is a potential trigger for sudden cardiac death in persons

> with risk factors for ischemic heart disease.PMID: 15578815

>

> Maybe it's filtered coffee?

> Based on changes in consumption in milk fat, fat from meat and

> margarine, and taken into consideration the change from boiled to

> filtered coffee the estimated reduction in serum cholesterol in the

> population is in the order of 0.8 mmol/l. PMID: 15195160

>

> Old but still important, IMO:

> Contrary to common belief, the published literature provides little

> evidence that coffee and/or caffeine in typical dosages increases the

> risk of infarction, sudden death or arrhythmia. PMID: 7881818

>

> Regards.

>

>

> * [ ] Re: Cocoa Consumption: a sobering

>> study

>>

>>

>> Yes, truly amazing findings.

>>

>> I wonder why they are so few studies directed toward an

>> evaluation of

>> theobromine toxicity (except in dogs). After all it is a stimulant

>> closely related to caffeine. We know caffeine to be toxic.

>> Economic

>> reasons? One such study I found, out of india, ironically

>> concludes

>> that this important compound of cacoa is toxic to the heart

>> muscle.

>> What's the good of lowering blood pressure through consumption of

>> cocoa when there are so many other ways, if it weakens the heart

>> muscle? The ultimate effects of this practice are not likely

>> to show

>> for many years.

>>

>>

http://www.ijp-online.com/article.asp?issn=0253-7613;year=1998;volume=30;issue=5\

;spage=339;epage=342;aulast=Eteng;type=0

>>

<http://www.ijp-online.com/article.asp?issn=0253-7613;year=1998;volume=30;issue=\

5;spage=339;epage=342;aulast=Eteng;type=0>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> > >

>> > > Hi folks:

>> > >

>> > > Just 4.2 g a day of it. And it presumably included all

>> kinds of

>> > fat

>> > > and sugar with it. So imagine how good the de-fatted

>> sugar-free

>> > > cocoa must be!

>> > >

>> > >

>> >

>>

http://heart.healthcentersonline.com/newsstories/cocoaconsumershavelow

>>

<http://heart.healthcentersonline.com/newsstories/cocoaconsumershavelow>

>> > > erdiseaseriskstudy.cfm?nl=1

>> > >

>> > > http://snipurl.com/nce3

>> > >

>> > > Rodney.

>> > >

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, , I was recalling your usage.

I have switched to tea for periods of several weeks, and on various vacations have been treated to well wishing relatives to decaf, only to find that real coffee keeps my BP lower, believe it or not.

Tea, especially green tea keeps me awake better than any drug - as in 2AM.

The reason I ask the question is that I heard that coffee contains deadly mercaptans (maybe 20 yrs ago) and I guess the newer coffees don't have that now? (he said begging for correction).

What are the toxins that people refer to? I can't find them, but I'm no expert.

Please enlighten me folks.

What's wrong with this:

http://www.modern-psychiatry.com/coffee.htm

by E. Radecki, M.D., J.D.

who is published per Medline.

Regards.

Re: Re: coffeRe: [ ] Re: Coffee toxic

IIRC the recent report is blaming caffeine and a genetic variant on our ability to metabolize it. FWIW caffeine can be found elsewhere in lesser quantities also.Add me to the list of coffee "users", with no immediate plans to stop.One of life's relatively low calorie pleasures.JRjwwright wrote:> Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be classified as a > toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless > one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association > with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in > me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control > that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.> > We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers, > heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure > one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65 yrs). So > it can't be really toxic, like sudden death.>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, , I was recalling your usage.

I have switched to tea for periods of several weeks, and on various vacations have been treated to well wishing relatives to decaf, only to find that real coffee keeps my BP lower, believe it or not.

Tea, especially green tea keeps me awake better than any drug - as in 2AM.

The reason I ask the question is that I heard that coffee contains deadly mercaptans (maybe 20 yrs ago) and I guess the newer coffees don't have that now? (he said begging for correction).

What are the toxins that people refer to? I can't find them, but I'm no expert.

Please enlighten me folks.

What's wrong with this:

http://www.modern-psychiatry.com/coffee.htm

by E. Radecki, M.D., J.D.

who is published per Medline.

Regards.

Re: Re: coffeRe: [ ] Re: Coffee toxic

IIRC the recent report is blaming caffeine and a genetic variant on our ability to metabolize it. FWIW caffeine can be found elsewhere in lesser quantities also.Add me to the list of coffee "users", with no immediate plans to stop.One of life's relatively low calorie pleasures.JRjwwright wrote:> Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be classified as a > toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless > one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association > with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in > me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control > that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.> > We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers, > heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure > one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65 yrs). So > it can't be really toxic, like sudden death.>

[Guest guest]

I know that older decaf processes used solvents and many (?) have been

replaced with more modern water processes that are better. Thanks to

less invasive decaffeination techniques some growers/providers are now

committing better raw beans to it. I roast my own coffee from green

beans and can actually buy water process decaffeinated green beans (they

are quite good BTW). I drink both regular (in AM) and decaf (in PM) to

not degrade my sleep quality... green tea in the evening will also

interfere with my sleep patterns so it obviously has caffeine and/or

similar agents.

I tend to ignore most popular studies on coffee since they don't appear

to be controlling for some IMO important variables (like how roasted, or

growing conditions, etc). I suspect they will keep doing them, despite

my wan attention.

JR

jwwright wrote:

> Thanks, , I was recalling your usage.

> I have switched to tea for periods of several weeks, and on various

> vacations have been treated to well wishing relatives to decaf, only to

> find that real coffee keeps my BP lower, believe it or not.

> Tea, especially green tea keeps me awake better than any drug - as in 2AM.

> The reason I ask the question is that I heard that coffee contains

> deadly mercaptans (maybe 20 yrs ago) and I guess the newer coffees don't

> have that now? (he said begging for correction).

> What are the toxins that people refer to? I can't find them, but I'm no

> expert.

> Please enlighten me folks.

>

> What's wrong with this:

> http://www.modern-psychiatry.com/coffee.htm

> by E. Radecki, M.D., J.D.

> who is published per Medline.

>

> Regards.

>

>

>

>

> * Re: Re: coffeRe: [ ] Re: Coffee toxic

>

> IIRC the recent report is blaming caffeine and a genetic variant on our

> ability to metabolize it. FWIW caffeine can be found elsewhere in

> lesser

> quantities also.

>

> Add me to the list of coffee " users " , with no immediate plans to stop.

>

> One of life's relatively low calorie pleasures.

>

> JR

>

> jwwright wrote:

> > Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be

> classified as a

> > toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine

> unless

> > one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's

> association

> > with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs

> (not in

> > me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control

> > that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.

> >

> > We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers,

> > heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and

> I'm sure

> > one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65

> yrs). So

> > it can't be really toxic, like sudden death.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I know that older decaf processes used solvents and many (?) have been

replaced with more modern water processes that are better. Thanks to

less invasive decaffeination techniques some growers/providers are now

committing better raw beans to it. I roast my own coffee from green

beans and can actually buy water process decaffeinated green beans (they

are quite good BTW). I drink both regular (in AM) and decaf (in PM) to

not degrade my sleep quality... green tea in the evening will also

interfere with my sleep patterns so it obviously has caffeine and/or

similar agents.

I tend to ignore most popular studies on coffee since they don't appear

to be controlling for some IMO important variables (like how roasted, or

growing conditions, etc). I suspect they will keep doing them, despite

my wan attention.

JR

jwwright wrote:

> Thanks, , I was recalling your usage.

> I have switched to tea for periods of several weeks, and on various

> vacations have been treated to well wishing relatives to decaf, only to

> find that real coffee keeps my BP lower, believe it or not.

> Tea, especially green tea keeps me awake better than any drug - as in 2AM.

> The reason I ask the question is that I heard that coffee contains

> deadly mercaptans (maybe 20 yrs ago) and I guess the newer coffees don't

> have that now? (he said begging for correction).

> What are the toxins that people refer to? I can't find them, but I'm no

> expert.

> Please enlighten me folks.

>

> What's wrong with this:

> http://www.modern-psychiatry.com/coffee.htm

> by E. Radecki, M.D., J.D.

> who is published per Medline.

>

> Regards.

>

>

>

>

> * Re: Re: coffeRe: [ ] Re: Coffee toxic

>

> IIRC the recent report is blaming caffeine and a genetic variant on our

> ability to metabolize it. FWIW caffeine can be found elsewhere in

> lesser

> quantities also.

>

> Add me to the list of coffee " users " , with no immediate plans to stop.

>

> One of life's relatively low calorie pleasures.

>

> JR

>

> jwwright wrote:

> > Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be

> classified as a

> > toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine

> unless

> > one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's

> association

> > with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs

> (not in

> > me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control

> > that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.

> >

> > We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers,

> > heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and

> I'm sure

> > one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65

> yrs). So

> > it can't be really toxic, like sudden death.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:48 AM 3/10/2006, you wrote:

Serious question. WHAT exactly

in coffee, that could be classified as a toxin that kills humans say in

<100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless one uses tablets or a lot of

soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association with arrhythmia (motorboat)

but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in me) without the caffeine as

well, and only a medication will control that. In a person who has drunk

a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.

We sometimes use deadly toxins

to kill certain things like cancers, heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3

CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure one of them has drunk it longer than a

lot have been alive (65 yrs). So it can't be really toxic, like sudden

death.

Coffee is

a poison for this mouse: if I drink a small quantity of

Coffee, Black or Green Tea or Herba Mate, I'll be taking a

puff of albuterol half an hour later. The decaf in the coffee shop

downstairs ~does not~ have this effect, but I've often had

breathing problems after drinking other decafs. It could be that

there is residual caffeine (or something else) in some decafs.

My

allergist thinks this is nuts, since most people find caffeine

relieves asthma symptoms. Theophylline, a related

compound, is used as a long-term asthma controller, but has

fallen out of fashion in the developed world since we have inhaled

steroids and leukotriene inhibitors.

Caffeine

has at least two actions at the molecular level.

Caffeine inhibits

the action of adenosine, a hormone that builds up in the body when

you're awake and is destroyed in your sleep. That is,

caffeine turns off a hormonal pathway that makes you feel tired.

Caffeine also

inhibits certain phosphodiesterases, which play a role in signal

transduction from cell membranes to the genetic material in the

nucleus. For instance, phosphodiesterases are involved when

an immune receptor detects an antigen. Thus, caffeine (and

theophyilline) have an immunomodulatory effect. It helps most

asthmatics, but it's bad for me.

Caffeine also has

an effect on blood sugar regulation (makes it easier to mobilize

glycogen), which may be secondary to the above two things,

and it raises serotonin levels in the brain (which may have be caused by

changes in glucose metabolism.)

If you

look at a recent textbook, say, Janeway's

" Immunobiology " you'll see that the immune system consists of

complex interlocked networks. For instance, B cells and

helper T-cells play a role like the two keys that people have to turn

simultaneously to fire a nuclear missle. The

" inflammation " concept is big these days in pop med and

alternative health, but the chemistry of asthma,

allergies, arthritis and the vascular inflammation that contributes

to heat disease are quite different, and you can't expect one drug

(supplement or whatever) to help in all these areas. In fact,

as we've seen with Vioxx, something that helps in one area can hurt

in another area. So, anything immunomodulary may have complex

effects across different systems and in different people.

When you

look at the binding of a drug to a receptor and downstream effects,

most drugs have a sigmoid curve between dosage an effect. A drug is

useful if you get up past the " knee " of the sigmoid curve of a

desired effect, before you reach the same point on dangerous side

effects. For instance, at a certain dose, tricyclic

antidepressants affect the metabolism of serotonin and/or

norephinephrine. At a dose about five times higher, they

affect electrical transmission in the heart.

Lab

studies on caffeine tend to be flawed because, generally,

they give people small doses, about the same as an 8 oz cup of gas

station coffee. Starbucks has been adding supplementary caffeine

for years, and you're even finding caffeine-enriched coffee at

places like burger kind today. 24 oz fills aren't unusual these

days, and many people drink a few of those a day. The

anti-asthmatic effects of caffeine are usually reported to start at high

doses, the 8 oz dose doesn't do it; since we know that is

mediated by the effect on phosphodiesterase, it's a reasonable

guess that the adenosine inhibition (psychostimulant) kicks in at lower

doses than the immunomodulatory effects.

Caffeine

is addictive. Personally I have to keep away from it

completely, or I'll get back into it. When I quit I have

horrible withdrawl symptoms: two days of horrible headaches and

body aches, and then about two weeks of general listlessness.

If I went downstairs and filled my mug, I'd be hooked

again.

Caffeine

also exacerbates anxiety disorders. A person who's high in

" Trait N " , who tends towards the " Type A

personality " or " Generalized Anxiety Disorder " , is

going to have these tendencies made worse, and that will probably

mean BP up.

[Guest guest]

At 11:48 AM 3/10/2006, you wrote:

Serious question. WHAT exactly

in coffee, that could be classified as a toxin that kills humans say in

<100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless one uses tablets or a lot of

soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association with arrhythmia (motorboat)

but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in me) without the caffeine as

well, and only a medication will control that. In a person who has drunk

a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks.

We sometimes use deadly toxins

to kill certain things like cancers, heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3

CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure one of them has drunk it longer than a

lot have been alive (65 yrs). So it can't be really toxic, like sudden

death.

Coffee is

a poison for this mouse: if I drink a small quantity of

Coffee, Black or Green Tea or Herba Mate, I'll be taking a

puff of albuterol half an hour later. The decaf in the coffee shop

downstairs ~does not~ have this effect, but I've often had

breathing problems after drinking other decafs. It could be that

there is residual caffeine (or something else) in some decafs.

My

allergist thinks this is nuts, since most people find caffeine

relieves asthma symptoms. Theophylline, a related

compound, is used as a long-term asthma controller, but has

fallen out of fashion in the developed world since we have inhaled

steroids and leukotriene inhibitors.

Caffeine

has at least two actions at the molecular level.

Caffeine inhibits

the action of adenosine, a hormone that builds up in the body when

you're awake and is destroyed in your sleep. That is,

caffeine turns off a hormonal pathway that makes you feel tired.

Caffeine also

inhibits certain phosphodiesterases, which play a role in signal

transduction from cell membranes to the genetic material in the

nucleus. For instance, phosphodiesterases are involved when

an immune receptor detects an antigen. Thus, caffeine (and

theophyilline) have an immunomodulatory effect. It helps most

asthmatics, but it's bad for me.

Caffeine also has

an effect on blood sugar regulation (makes it easier to mobilize

glycogen), which may be secondary to the above two things,

and it raises serotonin levels in the brain (which may have be caused by

changes in glucose metabolism.)

If you

look at a recent textbook, say, Janeway's

" Immunobiology " you'll see that the immune system consists of

complex interlocked networks. For instance, B cells and

helper T-cells play a role like the two keys that people have to turn

simultaneously to fire a nuclear missle. The

" inflammation " concept is big these days in pop med and

alternative health, but the chemistry of asthma,

allergies, arthritis and the vascular inflammation that contributes

to heat disease are quite different, and you can't expect one drug

(supplement or whatever) to help in all these areas. In fact,

as we've seen with Vioxx, something that helps in one area can hurt

in another area. So, anything immunomodulary may have complex

effects across different systems and in different people.

When you

look at the binding of a drug to a receptor and downstream effects,

most drugs have a sigmoid curve between dosage an effect. A drug is

useful if you get up past the " knee " of the sigmoid curve of a

desired effect, before you reach the same point on dangerous side

effects. For instance, at a certain dose, tricyclic

antidepressants affect the metabolism of serotonin and/or

norephinephrine. At a dose about five times higher, they

affect electrical transmission in the heart.

Lab

studies on caffeine tend to be flawed because, generally,

they give people small doses, about the same as an 8 oz cup of gas

station coffee. Starbucks has been adding supplementary caffeine

for years, and you're even finding caffeine-enriched coffee at

places like burger kind today. 24 oz fills aren't unusual these

days, and many people drink a few of those a day. The

anti-asthmatic effects of caffeine are usually reported to start at high

doses, the 8 oz dose doesn't do it; since we know that is

mediated by the effect on phosphodiesterase, it's a reasonable

guess that the adenosine inhibition (psychostimulant) kicks in at lower

doses than the immunomodulatory effects.

Caffeine

is addictive. Personally I have to keep away from it

completely, or I'll get back into it. When I quit I have

horrible withdrawl symptoms: two days of horrible headaches and

body aches, and then about two weeks of general listlessness.

If I went downstairs and filled my mug, I'd be hooked

again.

Caffeine

also exacerbates anxiety disorders. A person who's high in

" Trait N " , who tends towards the " Type A

personality " or " Generalized Anxiety Disorder " , is

going to have these tendencies made worse, and that will probably

mean BP up.

[Guest guest]

A Houle wrote:

>

>

> Coffee is a poison for this mouse: if I drink a small quantity

> of Coffee, Black or Green Tea or Herba Mate, I'll be taking a puff of

> albuterol half an hour later. The decaf in the coffee shop downstairs

> ~does not~ have this effect, but I've often had breathing problems

> after drinking other decafs. It could be that there is residual

> caffeine (or something else) in some decafs.

>

> My allergist thinks this is nuts, since most people find

> caffeine relieves asthma symptoms. Theophylline, a related compound,

> is used as a long-term asthma controller, but has fallen out of fashion

> in the developed world since we have inhaled steroids and leukotriene

> inhibitors.

>

> Caffeine has at least two actions at the molecular level.

>

> Caffeine inhibits the action of adenosine, a hormone that

> builds up in the body when you're awake and is destroyed in your sleep.

> That is, caffeine turns off a hormonal pathway that makes you feel tired.

>

> Caffeine also inhibits certain phosphodiesterases, which play

> a role in signal transduction from cell membranes to the genetic

> material in the nucleus. For instance, phosphodiesterases are involved

> when an immune receptor detects an antigen. Thus, caffeine (and

> theophyilline) have an immunomodulatory effect. It helps most

> asthmatics, but it's bad for me.

>

> Caffeine also has an effect on blood sugar regulation (makes

> it easier to mobilize glycogen), which may be secondary to the above

> two things, and it raises serotonin levels in the brain (which may have

> be caused by changes in glucose metabolism.)

>

> If you look at a recent textbook, say, Janeway's

> " Immunobiology " you'll see that the immune system consists of complex

> interlocked networks. For instance, B cells and helper T-cells play a

> role like the two keys that people have to turn simultaneously to fire a

> nuclear missle. The " inflammation " concept is big these days in pop med

> and alternative health, but the chemistry of asthma, allergies,

> arthritis and the vascular inflammation that contributes to heat disease

> are quite different, and you can't expect one drug (supplement or

> whatever) to help in all these areas. In fact, as we've seen with

> Vioxx, something that helps in one area can hurt in another area. So,

> anything immunomodulary may have complex effects across different

> systems and in different people.

>

> When you look at the binding of a drug to a receptor and

> downstream effects, most drugs have a sigmoid curve between dosage an

> effect. A drug is useful if you get up past the " knee " of the sigmoid

> curve of a desired effect, before you reach the same point on dangerous

> side effects. For instance, at a certain dose, tricyclic

> antidepressants affect the metabolism of serotonin and/or

> norephinephrine. At a dose about five times higher, they affect

> electrical transmission in the heart.

>

> Lab studies on caffeine tend to be flawed because, generally,

> they give people small doses, about the same as an 8 oz cup of gas

> station coffee. Starbucks has been adding supplementary caffeine for

> years, and you're even finding caffeine-enriched coffee at places like

> burger kind today. 24 oz fills aren't unusual these days, and many

> people drink a few of those a day. The anti-asthmatic effects of

> caffeine are usually reported to start at high doses, the 8 oz dose

> doesn't do it; since we know that is mediated by the effect on

> phosphodiesterase, it's a reasonable guess that the adenosine

> inhibition (psychostimulant) kicks in at lower doses than the

> immunomodulatory effects.

>

> Caffeine is addictive. Personally I have to keep away from it

> completely, or I'll get back into it. When I quit I have horrible

> withdrawl symptoms: two days of horrible headaches and body aches, and

> then about two weeks of general listlessness. If I went downstairs and

> filled my mug, I'd be hooked again.

>

> Caffeine also exacerbates anxiety disorders. A person who's

> high in " Trait N " , who tends towards the " Type A personality " or

> " Generalized Anxiety Disorder " , is going to have these tendencies made

> worse, and that will probably mean BP up.

>

Yes, different decaf processes have less than 100% removal.

this is more evidence that we are all individuals with clearly different

factors to consider when choosing our path through this maze. Good

luck and watch out for those new energy drinks, tons of caffiene.

JR

[Guest guest]

A Houle wrote:

>

>

> Coffee is a poison for this mouse: if I drink a small quantity

> of Coffee, Black or Green Tea or Herba Mate, I'll be taking a puff of

> albuterol half an hour later. The decaf in the coffee shop downstairs

> ~does not~ have this effect, but I've often had breathing problems

> after drinking other decafs. It could be that there is residual

> caffeine (or something else) in some decafs.

>

> My allergist thinks this is nuts, since most people find

> caffeine relieves asthma symptoms. Theophylline, a related compound,

> is used as a long-term asthma controller, but has fallen out of fashion

> in the developed world since we have inhaled steroids and leukotriene

> inhibitors.

>

> Caffeine has at least two actions at the molecular level.

>

> Caffeine inhibits the action of adenosine, a hormone that

> builds up in the body when you're awake and is destroyed in your sleep.

> That is, caffeine turns off a hormonal pathway that makes you feel tired.

>

> Caffeine also inhibits certain phosphodiesterases, which play

> a role in signal transduction from cell membranes to the genetic

> material in the nucleus. For instance, phosphodiesterases are involved

> when an immune receptor detects an antigen. Thus, caffeine (and

> theophyilline) have an immunomodulatory effect. It helps most

> asthmatics, but it's bad for me.

>

> Caffeine also has an effect on blood sugar regulation (makes

> it easier to mobilize glycogen), which may be secondary to the above

> two things, and it raises serotonin levels in the brain (which may have

> be caused by changes in glucose metabolism.)

>

> If you look at a recent textbook, say, Janeway's

> " Immunobiology " you'll see that the immune system consists of complex

> interlocked networks. For instance, B cells and helper T-cells play a

> role like the two keys that people have to turn simultaneously to fire a

> nuclear missle. The " inflammation " concept is big these days in pop med

> and alternative health, but the chemistry of asthma, allergies,

> arthritis and the vascular inflammation that contributes to heat disease

> are quite different, and you can't expect one drug (supplement or

> whatever) to help in all these areas. In fact, as we've seen with

> Vioxx, something that helps in one area can hurt in another area. So,

> anything immunomodulary may have complex effects across different

> systems and in different people.

>

> When you look at the binding of a drug to a receptor and

> downstream effects, most drugs have a sigmoid curve between dosage an

> effect. A drug is useful if you get up past the " knee " of the sigmoid

> curve of a desired effect, before you reach the same point on dangerous

> side effects. For instance, at a certain dose, tricyclic

> antidepressants affect the metabolism of serotonin and/or

> norephinephrine. At a dose about five times higher, they affect

> electrical transmission in the heart.

>

> Lab studies on caffeine tend to be flawed because, generally,

> they give people small doses, about the same as an 8 oz cup of gas

> station coffee. Starbucks has been adding supplementary caffeine for

> years, and you're even finding caffeine-enriched coffee at places like

> burger kind today. 24 oz fills aren't unusual these days, and many

> people drink a few of those a day. The anti-asthmatic effects of

> caffeine are usually reported to start at high doses, the 8 oz dose

> doesn't do it; since we know that is mediated by the effect on

> phosphodiesterase, it's a reasonable guess that the adenosine

> inhibition (psychostimulant) kicks in at lower doses than the

> immunomodulatory effects.

>

> Caffeine is addictive. Personally I have to keep away from it

> completely, or I'll get back into it. When I quit I have horrible

> withdrawl symptoms: two days of horrible headaches and body aches, and

> then about two weeks of general listlessness. If I went downstairs and

> filled my mug, I'd be hooked again.

>

> Caffeine also exacerbates anxiety disorders. A person who's

> high in " Trait N " , who tends towards the " Type A personality " or

> " Generalized Anxiety Disorder " , is going to have these tendencies made

> worse, and that will probably mean BP up.

>

Yes, different decaf processes have less than 100% removal.

this is more evidence that we are all individuals with clearly different

factors to consider when choosing our path through this maze. Good

luck and watch out for those new energy drinks, tons of caffiene.

JR

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much, ,

Obviously not your bag.

It'll take me a while to digest all that. Several things to look at.

Regards.

Re: coffeRe: [ ] Re: Coffee toxic

At 11:48 AM 3/10/2006, you wrote:

Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be classified as a toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks. We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers, heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65 yrs). So it can't be really toxic, like sudden death. Coffee is a poison for this mouse: if I drink a small quantity of Coffee, Black or Green Tea or Herba Mate, I'll be taking a puff of albuterol half an hour later. The decaf in the coffee shop downstairs ~does not~ have this effect, but I've often had breathing problems after drinking other decafs. It could be that there is residual caffeine (or something else) in some decafs. My allergist thinks this is nuts, since most people find caffeine relieves asthma symptoms. Theophylline, a related compound, is used as a long-term asthma controller, but has fallen out of fashion in the developed world since we have inhaled steroids and leukotriene inhibitors. Caffeine has at least two actions at the molecular level. Caffeine inhibits the action of adenosine, a hormone that builds up in the body when you're awake and is destroyed in your sleep. That is, caffeine turns off a hormonal pathway that makes you feel tired. Caffeine also inhibits certain phosphodiesterases, which play a role in signal transduction from cell membranes to the genetic material in the nucleus. For instance, phosphodiesterases are involved when an immune receptor detects an antigen. Thus, caffeine (and theophyilline) have an immunomodulatory effect. It helps most asthmatics, but it's bad for me. Caffeine also has an effect on blood sugar regulation (makes it easier to mobilize glycogen), which may be secondary to the above two things, and it raises serotonin levels in the brain (which may have be caused by changes in glucose metabolism.) If you look at a recent textbook, say, Janeway's "Immunobiology" you'll see that the immune system consists of complex interlocked networks. For instance, B cells and helper T-cells play a role like the two keys that people have to turn simultaneously to fire a nuclear missle. The "inflammation" concept is big these days in pop med and alternative health, but the chemistry of asthma, allergies, arthritis and the vascular inflammation that contributes to heat disease are quite different, and you can't expect one drug (supplement or whatever) to help in all these areas. In fact, as we've seen with Vioxx, something that helps in one area can hurt in another area. So, anything immunomodulary may have complex effects across different systems and in different people. When you look at the binding of a drug to a receptor and downstream effects, most drugs have a sigmoid curve between dosage an effect. A drug is useful if you get up past the "knee" of the sigmoid curve of a desired effect, before you reach the same point on dangerous side effects. For instance, at a certain dose, tricyclic antidepressants affect the metabolism of serotonin and/or norephinephrine. At a dose about five times higher, they affect electrical transmission in the heart. Lab studies on caffeine tend to be flawed because, generally, they give people small doses, about the same as an 8 oz cup of gas station coffee. Starbucks has been adding supplementary caffeine for years, and you're even finding caffeine-enriched coffee at places like burger kind today. 24 oz fills aren't unusual these days, and many people drink a few of those a day. The anti-asthmatic effects of caffeine are usually reported to start at high doses, the 8 oz dose doesn't do it; since we know that is mediated by the effect on phosphodiesterase, it's a reasonable guess that the adenosine inhibition (psychostimulant) kicks in at lower doses than the immunomodulatory effects. Caffeine is addictive. Personally I have to keep away from it completely, or I'll get back into it. When I quit I have horrible withdrawl symptoms: two days of horrible headaches and body aches, and then about two weeks of general listlessness. If I went downstairs and filled my mug, I'd be hooked again. Caffeine also exacerbates anxiety disorders. A person who's high in "Trait N", who tends towards the "Type A personality" or "Generalized Anxiety Disorder", is going to have these tendencies made worse, and that will probably mean BP up.

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much, ,

Obviously not your bag.

It'll take me a while to digest all that. Several things to look at.

Regards.

Re: coffeRe: [ ] Re: Coffee toxic

At 11:48 AM 3/10/2006, you wrote:

Serious question. WHAT exactly in coffee, that could be classified as a toxin that kills humans say in <100 yrs? Certainly not caffeine unless one uses tablets or a lot of soft drinks. I'm aware of it's association with arrhythmia (motorboat) but I notice the arrhythmia occurs (not in me) without the caffeine as well, and only a medication will control that. In a person who has drunk a lot of coffee, tea, soft drinks. We sometimes use deadly toxins to kill certain things like cancers, heart worms in dogs, etc. At least 3 CRONies enjoy coffee, and I'm sure one of them has drunk it longer than a lot have been alive (65 yrs). So it can't be really toxic, like sudden death. Coffee is a poison for this mouse: if I drink a small quantity of Coffee, Black or Green Tea or Herba Mate, I'll be taking a puff of albuterol half an hour later. The decaf in the coffee shop downstairs ~does not~ have this effect, but I've often had breathing problems after drinking other decafs. It could be that there is residual caffeine (or something else) in some decafs. My allergist thinks this is nuts, since most people find caffeine relieves asthma symptoms. Theophylline, a related compound, is used as a long-term asthma controller, but has fallen out of fashion in the developed world since we have inhaled steroids and leukotriene inhibitors. Caffeine has at least two actions at the molecular level. Caffeine inhibits the action of adenosine, a hormone that builds up in the body when you're awake and is destroyed in your sleep. That is, caffeine turns off a hormonal pathway that makes you feel tired. Caffeine also inhibits certain phosphodiesterases, which play a role in signal transduction from cell membranes to the genetic material in the nucleus. For instance, phosphodiesterases are involved when an immune receptor detects an antigen. Thus, caffeine (and theophyilline) have an immunomodulatory effect. It helps most asthmatics, but it's bad for me. Caffeine also has an effect on blood sugar regulation (makes it easier to mobilize glycogen), which may be secondary to the above two things, and it raises serotonin levels in the brain (which may have be caused by changes in glucose metabolism.) If you look at a recent textbook, say, Janeway's "Immunobiology" you'll see that the immune system consists of complex interlocked networks. For instance, B cells and helper T-cells play a role like the two keys that people have to turn simultaneously to fire a nuclear missle. The "inflammation" concept is big these days in pop med and alternative health, but the chemistry of asthma, allergies, arthritis and the vascular inflammation that contributes to heat disease are quite different, and you can't expect one drug (supplement or whatever) to help in all these areas. In fact, as we've seen with Vioxx, something that helps in one area can hurt in another area. So, anything immunomodulary may have complex effects across different systems and in different people. When you look at the binding of a drug to a receptor and downstream effects, most drugs have a sigmoid curve between dosage an effect. A drug is useful if you get up past the "knee" of the sigmoid curve of a desired effect, before you reach the same point on dangerous side effects. For instance, at a certain dose, tricyclic antidepressants affect the metabolism of serotonin and/or norephinephrine. At a dose about five times higher, they affect electrical transmission in the heart. Lab studies on caffeine tend to be flawed because, generally, they give people small doses, about the same as an 8 oz cup of gas station coffee. Starbucks has been adding supplementary caffeine for years, and you're even finding caffeine-enriched coffee at places like burger kind today. 24 oz fills aren't unusual these days, and many people drink a few of those a day. The anti-asthmatic effects of caffeine are usually reported to start at high doses, the 8 oz dose doesn't do it; since we know that is mediated by the effect on phosphodiesterase, it's a reasonable guess that the adenosine inhibition (psychostimulant) kicks in at lower doses than the immunomodulatory effects. Caffeine is addictive. Personally I have to keep away from it completely, or I'll get back into it. When I quit I have horrible withdrawl symptoms: two days of horrible headaches and body aches, and then about two weeks of general listlessness. If I went downstairs and filled my mug, I'd be hooked again. Caffeine also exacerbates anxiety disorders. A person who's high in "Trait N", who tends towards the "Type A personality" or "Generalized Anxiety Disorder", is going to have these tendencies made worse, and that will probably mean BP up.