Interesting Question

January 4, 2006

In the mid 1940s, Ancel Keys did his famous starvation experiments. It is

reported that he fed his ~35 subjects around 1500-1600 calories during the

" starvation " period which lasted around 6 months. In additon, he insisited

that they walked 22 miles a week. (which based on averages is about the

equivalent of burning 2200 calories a week). Pictures of the experiment showed

highly emaciated subjects. They lost about 25% of their intial weight.

In the 1990s, Rena Wing published data on the NWCR. It is reported that the ~

5000 subjects in the NWCR averaged around 1306 calories for men and 1685 for

men. They reported on average burning around 2800 calories per week in

exercise. The average BMI was around 25-27 and 35 at the start. They lost a

significant amount of weight. Pictures of the registry members do not look

anywhere near emaciated.

In the registry over 90% reported improved physical health, quality of life,

energy level, physical mobility, general mood, self esteem, relatioships, .etc

etc and one of the studies concluded .... " There was no evidence that long-term

suppression of body weight is associated with psychological distress. "

In the starvation studies, most reported severe psychological problems and

physical problems that lasted long after the experiement ended. Quoting... "

Volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal

discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to

noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid

causing swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold

hands and feet); visual disturbances (i.e., inability to focus, eye aches,

" spots " in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the

ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling sensations,

especially in the hands or feet). Almost 20% experienced extreme emotional

deterioration that markedly interfered with their functioning. Depression became

more severe during the course of the experiment. Elation was observed

occasionally, but this was inevitably followed by " low periods. " Mood swings

were extreme for some of the volunteers:Irritability and frequent outbursts of

anger were common, anxiety became more evident. As the experiment progressed,

many of the formerly even-tempered men began biting their nails or smoking

because they felt nervous. Apathy also became common, and some men who had been

quite fastidious neglected various aspects of personal hygiene. During

semistarvation, two subjects developed disturbances of " psychotic " proportions. "

Anyone know why the dramatic differences in these two experiments when the

calorie levels were similar yet they subjects in the NWCR didnt report the same

psychological or physical problems reported in the starvation studies?

There is a fairly good review of the Ancel Keys experiments here...

http://www.river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html

<http://www.river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html>

http://gunpowder.quaker.org/documents/starvation-kalm.pdf

<http://gunpowder.quaker.org/documents/starvation-kalm.pdf>

and of the NWCR studies here...

http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm

<http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm>

Thanks

jeff

January 4, 2006

Unfortunately, I've never gotten access to Key's book, but I can guess the diff is the subjects. I'm guessing Keys subjects might have started with less excess weight, less body fat.

Also guessing that 19 of 36 alive at age ~80 is pretty good.

Regards.

[ ] Interesting Question

In the mid 1940s, Ancel Keys did his famous starvation experiments. It is reported that he fed his ~35 subjects around 1500-1600 calories during the "starvation" period which lasted around 6 months. In additon, he insisited that they walked 22 miles a week. (which based on averages is about the equivalent of burning 2200 calories a week). Pictures of the experiment showed highly emaciated subjects. They lost about 25% of their intial weight.In the 1990s, Rena Wing published data on the NWCR. It is reported that the ~ 5000 subjects in the NWCR averaged around 1306 calories for men and 1685 for men. They reported on average burning around 2800 calories per week in exercise. The average BMI was around 25-27 and 35 at the start. They lost a significant amount of weight. Pictures of the registry members do not look anywhere near emaciated.In the registry over 90% reported improved physical health, quality of life, energy level, physical mobility, general mood, self esteem, relatioships, .etc etc and one of the studies concluded .... "There was no evidence that long-term suppression of body weight is associated with psychological distress."In the starvation studies, most reported severe psychological problems and physical problems that lasted long after the experiement ended. Quoting... " Volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid causing swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold hands and feet); visual disturbances (i.e., inability to focus, eye aches, "spots" in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling sensations, especially in the hands or feet). Almost 20% experienced extreme emotional deterioration that markedly interfered with their functioning. Depression became more severe during the course of the experiment. Elation was observed occasionally, but this was inevitably followed by "low periods." Mood swings were extreme for some of the volunteers:Irritability and frequent outbursts of anger were common, anxiety became more evident. As the experiment progressed, many of the formerly even-tempered men began biting their nails or smoking because they felt nervous. Apathy also became common, and some men who had been quite fastidious neglected various aspects of personal hygiene. During semistarvation, two subjects developed disturbances of "psychotic" proportions."Anyone know why the dramatic differences in these two experiments when the calorie levels were similar yet they subjects in the NWCR didnt report the same psychological or physical problems reported in the starvation studies?There is a fairly good review of the Ancel Keys experiments here...http://www.river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html <http://www.river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html> http://gunpowder.quaker.org/documents/starvation-kalm.pdf <http://gunpowder.quaker.org/documents/starvation-kalm.pdf> and of the NWCR studies here...http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm <http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm> Thanksjeff

January 4, 2006

Unfortunately, I've never gotten access to Key's book, but I can guess the diff is the subjects. I'm guessing Keys subjects might have started with less excess weight, less body fat.

Also guessing that 19 of 36 alive at age ~80 is pretty good.

Regards.

[ ] Interesting Question

In the mid 1940s, Ancel Keys did his famous starvation experiments. It is reported that he fed his ~35 subjects around 1500-1600 calories during the "starvation" period which lasted around 6 months. In additon, he insisited that they walked 22 miles a week. (which based on averages is about the equivalent of burning 2200 calories a week). Pictures of the experiment showed highly emaciated subjects. They lost about 25% of their intial weight.In the 1990s, Rena Wing published data on the NWCR. It is reported that the ~ 5000 subjects in the NWCR averaged around 1306 calories for men and 1685 for men. They reported on average burning around 2800 calories per week in exercise. The average BMI was around 25-27 and 35 at the start. They lost a significant amount of weight. Pictures of the registry members do not look anywhere near emaciated.In the registry over 90% reported improved physical health, quality of life, energy level, physical mobility, general mood, self esteem, relatioships, .etc etc and one of the studies concluded .... "There was no evidence that long-term suppression of body weight is associated with psychological distress."In the starvation studies, most reported severe psychological problems and physical problems that lasted long after the experiement ended. Quoting... " Volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid causing swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold hands and feet); visual disturbances (i.e., inability to focus, eye aches, "spots" in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling sensations, especially in the hands or feet). Almost 20% experienced extreme emotional deterioration that markedly interfered with their functioning. Depression became more severe during the course of the experiment. Elation was observed occasionally, but this was inevitably followed by "low periods." Mood swings were extreme for some of the volunteers:Irritability and frequent outbursts of anger were common, anxiety became more evident. As the experiment progressed, many of the formerly even-tempered men began biting their nails or smoking because they felt nervous. Apathy also became common, and some men who had been quite fastidious neglected various aspects of personal hygiene. During semistarvation, two subjects developed disturbances of "psychotic" proportions."Anyone know why the dramatic differences in these two experiments when the calorie levels were similar yet they subjects in the NWCR didnt report the same psychological or physical problems reported in the starvation studies?There is a fairly good review of the Ancel Keys experiments here...http://www.river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html <http://www.river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html> http://gunpowder.quaker.org/documents/starvation-kalm.pdf <http://gunpowder.quaker.org/documents/starvation-kalm.pdf> and of the NWCR studies here...http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm <http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm> Thanksjeff

January 4, 2006

Hi JW:

Agree. My understanding from long ago is that once there are no fat

reserves left and lean mass starts to be used to satisfy energy

requirments, people go off the rails. But down to 6% BF they feel

great.

In 's disastrous antarctic expedition the first man to succumb

was the strongest. At the end they were eating next to nothing and

trudging through blizzards and snow towing a sledge weighed down by

hundreds of pounds of rocks for ten miles a day. They were all

eating the same, tiny, amount of food, but he was much bigger and

stronger so no doubt was pulling harder than the rest. So he was

expending many more calories and got to zero body fat before the

others. He was going insane for a number of days before he died.

The others were still apparently sane at that time, presumably

because they still had some fat reserves. But they were suffering

all kinds of other problems in addition, one of the more important

being scurvy.

So in the experiments outlined by Jeff those who had a much improved

quality of life had reduced their BMIs from obese to normal or CR'ed -

so they felt great. Had they gone a little further and started

burning lean body mass they would have gone off the rails too, IMO.

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

>

> Unfortunately, I've never gotten access to Key's book, but I can

guess the diff is the subjects. I'm guessing Keys subjects might have

started with less excess weight, less body fat.

> Also guessing that 19 of 36 alive at age ~80 is pretty good.

>

> Regards.

>

> [ ] Interesting Question

>

> In the mid 1940s, Ancel Keys did his famous starvation

experiments. It is reported that he fed his ~35 subjects around 1500-

1600 calories during the " starvation " period which lasted around 6

months. In additon, he insisited that they walked 22 miles a week.

(which based on averages is about the equivalent of burning 2200

calories a week). Pictures of the experiment showed highly emaciated

subjects. They lost about 25% of their intial weight.

>

> In the 1990s, Rena Wing published data on the NWCR. It is

reported that the ~ 5000 subjects in the NWCR averaged around 1306

calories for men and 1685 for men. They reported on average burning

around 2800 calories per week in exercise. The average BMI was

around 25-27 and 35 at the start. They lost a significant amount of

weight. Pictures of the registry members do not look anywhere near

emaciated.

>

> In the registry over 90% reported improved physical health,

quality of life, energy level, physical mobility, general mood, self

esteem, relatioships, .etc etc and one of the studies

concluded .... " There was no evidence that long-term suppression of

body weight is associated with psychological distress. "

>

> In the starvation studies, most reported severe psychological

problems and physical problems that lasted long after the experiement

ended. Quoting... " Volunteers exhibited many physical changes,

including gastrointestinal discomfort; decreased need for sleep;

dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced

strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid causing

swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold

hands and feet); visual disturbances (i.e., inability to focus, eye

aches, " spots " in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e.,

ringing noise in the ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling

or prickling sensations, especially in the hands or feet). Almost

20% experienced extreme emotional deterioration that markedly

interfered with their functioning. Depression became more severe

during the course of the experiment. Elation was observed

occasionally, but this was inevitably followed by " low periods. " Mood

swings were extreme for some of the volunteers:Irritability and

frequent outbursts of anger were common, anxiety became more evident.

As the experiment progressed, many of the formerly even-tempered men

began biting their nails or smoking because they felt nervous. Apathy

also became common, and some men who had been quite fastidious

neglected various aspects of personal hygiene. During semistarvation,

two subjects developed disturbances of " psychotic " proportions. "

>

> Anyone know why the dramatic differences in these two experiments

when the calorie levels were similar yet they subjects in the NWCR

didnt report the same psychological or physical problems reported in

the starvation studies?

>

> There is a fairly good review of the Ancel Keys experiments

here...

>

> http://www.river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html <http://www.river-

centre.org/StarvSympt.html>

>

> http://gunpowder.quaker.org/documents/starvation-kalm.pdf

<http://gunpowder.quaker.org/documents/starvation-kalm.pdf>

>

> and of the NWCR studies here...

>

> http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm

<http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm>

>

> Thanks

> jeff

>

January 4, 2006