Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the article.

First let's don't use Dr Kempner' s rice diet to support bland - it was after all, 600 kcals. Any 600 kcals diet will lose weight.

The article mixes the terms fat with weight.

Using flavorings may raise the "set point", but you don't know what is IN the flavorings they use. They even add "natural flavor" to strawberry products. Natural flavors are manufactured.

High GI foods might cause more fat storage because it peaks quicker and gets converted to palmitate when excesses. But the absolute amount stored over a meal period should not change. It gets stored then burned.

I'm not so sure hyperinsulemia causes less fat to be stored in adipose tissue. It is associated with less fat lypolysis in insulin resistant tissues.

Using "supermarket foods" I guess he means prepared foods, not basic stuff like produce. So salty, spicy foods cause people to eat more foods, and if you don't eat those you'll eat less calories. The question is, does it trigger a hormone balance that accumulates adipose tissue? Something gets triggered, but it would be hard to separate from an aging effect.

I think there might be a different set point for winter.

I've been listening to the Eagles DVD for a long time during my treadmills. Maybe I'll try just listening to the dvd without the exercise and see if I get a CR (conditioned response).

Regards.

[ ] A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Hi all,Look at this way of controling hunger and set point.http://www.freakonomics.com/pdf/whatmakesfoodfattening.pdfInteresting not only under the point of view of weight control, but regarding how to manage hunger and body hability to adapt to a CR diet.Not hard-core science, but interesing enough yet.Willie.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the article.

First let's don't use Dr Kempner' s rice diet to support bland - it was after all, 600 kcals. Any 600 kcals diet will lose weight.

The article mixes the terms fat with weight.

Using flavorings may raise the "set point", but you don't know what is IN the flavorings they use. They even add "natural flavor" to strawberry products. Natural flavors are manufactured.

High GI foods might cause more fat storage because it peaks quicker and gets converted to palmitate when excesses. But the absolute amount stored over a meal period should not change. It gets stored then burned.

I'm not so sure hyperinsulemia causes less fat to be stored in adipose tissue. It is associated with less fat lypolysis in insulin resistant tissues.

Using "supermarket foods" I guess he means prepared foods, not basic stuff like produce. So salty, spicy foods cause people to eat more foods, and if you don't eat those you'll eat less calories. The question is, does it trigger a hormone balance that accumulates adipose tissue? Something gets triggered, but it would be hard to separate from an aging effect.

I think there might be a different set point for winter.

I've been listening to the Eagles DVD for a long time during my treadmills. Maybe I'll try just listening to the dvd without the exercise and see if I get a CR (conditioned response).

Regards.

[ ] A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Hi all,Look at this way of controling hunger and set point.http://www.freakonomics.com/pdf/whatmakesfoodfattening.pdfInteresting not only under the point of view of weight control, but regarding how to manage hunger and body hability to adapt to a CR diet.Not hard-core science, but interesing enough yet.Willie.

[Guest guest]

> So salty, spicy foods cause people to eat more foods, and if you

don't eat those you'll eat less calories.

I thought someone had previously posted here an article

indicating that spicy/hot foods curbed appetite.

-

[Guest guest]

> So salty, spicy foods cause people to eat more foods, and if you

don't eat those you'll eat less calories.

I thought someone had previously posted here an article

indicating that spicy/hot foods curbed appetite.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

No, this guy's theory is more complicated than that. Or not

complicated really, just a much different way of looking at how maybe

our bodies control weight. This is how I understand it:

He believes that when we eat a high-calorie food, when our body

detects the caloric content, it associates the caloric content with a

taste. The stronger the taste, the stronger the association. The

association also becomes stronger over time. (The more often we eat

the caloric food, the easier our body recognizes it by the taste).

So, once our body has learned this association, the mere taste of the

particular familiar food makes our bodies think it is abundant food

time, and its time to put on fat to get us through the next famine.

(Our body raises its " set point. " )

On the other hand, he believes supplying a small portion of our daily

calories with a single bland tasting food (like sugar water or

vegetable oil) lowers our set point, no matter the total calories

we've eaten that day.

If my understanding is inaccurate here, anyone on the list please

correct me or help me clarify these ideas.

Dave

> > So salty, spicy foods cause people to eat more foods, and if you

> don't eat those you'll eat less calories.

>

> I thought someone had previously posted here an article

> indicating that spicy/hot foods curbed appetite.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

No, this guy's theory is more complicated than that. Or not

complicated really, just a much different way of looking at how maybe

our bodies control weight. This is how I understand it:

He believes that when we eat a high-calorie food, when our body

detects the caloric content, it associates the caloric content with a

taste. The stronger the taste, the stronger the association. The

association also becomes stronger over time. (The more often we eat

the caloric food, the easier our body recognizes it by the taste).

So, once our body has learned this association, the mere taste of the

particular familiar food makes our bodies think it is abundant food

time, and its time to put on fat to get us through the next famine.

(Our body raises its " set point. " )

On the other hand, he believes supplying a small portion of our daily

calories with a single bland tasting food (like sugar water or

vegetable oil) lowers our set point, no matter the total calories

we've eaten that day.

If my understanding is inaccurate here, anyone on the list please

correct me or help me clarify these ideas.

Dave

> > So salty, spicy foods cause people to eat more foods, and if you

> don't eat those you'll eat less calories.

>

> I thought someone had previously posted here an article

> indicating that spicy/hot foods curbed appetite.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

I found the article interesting as I have been doing somewhat similar

research on myself. I had to find a way to control my appetite if I

were going to be a successful CR person. I knew that certain foods

were making me hungry as I'd be hungrier after eating than I was

before eating. Or, as the French would say: " L'appetite viens en

manger " (The appetite comes whilst eating).

My first step was to be tested for food sensitivities. This revealed

reactions to gluten, dairy, tomatoes, potatoes, corn, chicken, yeast,

mushrooms, and a couple of other foods. So I now avoid those foods.

Once I avoided them, I found it much easier to notice how other foods

affected me, and I started cutting out anything which caused skin or

gastric reactions. What I ended up with was a bland diet (white rice,

veggies, fish, eggs, and a little pork/beef). This leaves me

unexcited about food (except for the eggs) and my appetite has dropped

considerably for the past 3 months. My skin is clearer, and my almost

constant gastric troubles have gone.

I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response

occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in

the NY Times.

I now deal with hunger in the following way: " Am I hungry enough to

enough broccoli or brussell sprouts? " . If the answer is no, then I am

eating for reasons other than real hunger.

Katrina.

> He believes that when we eat a high-calorie food, when our body

> detects the caloric content, it associates the caloric content with a

> taste. The stronger the taste, the stronger the association. The

> association also becomes stronger over time. (The more often we eat

> the caloric food, the easier our body recognizes it by the taste).

[Guest guest]

I found the article interesting as I have been doing somewhat similar

research on myself. I had to find a way to control my appetite if I

were going to be a successful CR person. I knew that certain foods

were making me hungry as I'd be hungrier after eating than I was

before eating. Or, as the French would say: " L'appetite viens en

manger " (The appetite comes whilst eating).

My first step was to be tested for food sensitivities. This revealed

reactions to gluten, dairy, tomatoes, potatoes, corn, chicken, yeast,

mushrooms, and a couple of other foods. So I now avoid those foods.

Once I avoided them, I found it much easier to notice how other foods

affected me, and I started cutting out anything which caused skin or

gastric reactions. What I ended up with was a bland diet (white rice,

veggies, fish, eggs, and a little pork/beef). This leaves me

unexcited about food (except for the eggs) and my appetite has dropped

considerably for the past 3 months. My skin is clearer, and my almost

constant gastric troubles have gone.

I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response

occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in

the NY Times.

I now deal with hunger in the following way: " Am I hungry enough to

enough broccoli or brussell sprouts? " . If the answer is no, then I am

eating for reasons other than real hunger.

Katrina.

> He believes that when we eat a high-calorie food, when our body

> detects the caloric content, it associates the caloric content with a

> taste. The stronger the taste, the stronger the association. The

> association also becomes stronger over time. (The more often we eat

> the caloric food, the easier our body recognizes it by the taste).

[Guest guest]

OK. I did a one meal experiment to see what happened:

I cooked up some garlic, strong red onions, ostrich, and a mixture of

herbs from the garden (basil, oregano, cilantro, sage) in some olive

oil (stir fried in a wok). It was very rich in flavour. Here's what

I noticed:

1. I ate 2-3 times quicker than normal as I enjoyed the taste of it.

2. I was hungrier after the meal than before it, so I had to add a

pear for dessert to curb my appetite.

3. I still want to eat, even though this meal was an hour ago.

4. I keep thinking about the food.

This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet. What I

am craving the most right now is the taste of the food, not the

calories. I feel quite swollen, actually, even though I am still

contemplating eating (which I won't).

Completely unscientific, of course.

Kat.

> I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response

> occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in

> the NY Times.

[Guest guest]

OK. I did a one meal experiment to see what happened:

I cooked up some garlic, strong red onions, ostrich, and a mixture of

herbs from the garden (basil, oregano, cilantro, sage) in some olive

oil (stir fried in a wok). It was very rich in flavour. Here's what

I noticed:

1. I ate 2-3 times quicker than normal as I enjoyed the taste of it.

2. I was hungrier after the meal than before it, so I had to add a

pear for dessert to curb my appetite.

3. I still want to eat, even though this meal was an hour ago.

4. I keep thinking about the food.

This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet. What I

am craving the most right now is the taste of the food, not the

calories. I feel quite swollen, actually, even though I am still

contemplating eating (which I won't).

Completely unscientific, of course.

Kat.

> I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response

> occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in

> the NY Times.

[Guest guest]

Brown rice makes me feel awful, and my feet start itching insanely.

It's an almost instantaneous reaction. Plus, when I eat brown rice, I

get the craving/addictive sensations and I eat too much (i.e., go well

over my daily limit).

As I said, there appears to be a link between inflammatory/immune

reactions, flavour, and addictions. I think that a craving as

insatiable as mine that occurs only after consuming certain substances

should be classified as addiction.

Whereas, if I eat white rice, I can eat one grain or 10,000 grains and

it makes little difference to my mental or physical state. It just

provides calories and a small amount of nutrition (its main drawback).

Kat.

>

> This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

> of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet.

[Guest guest]

Brown rice makes me feel awful, and my feet start itching insanely.

It's an almost instantaneous reaction. Plus, when I eat brown rice, I

get the craving/addictive sensations and I eat too much (i.e., go well

over my daily limit).

As I said, there appears to be a link between inflammatory/immune

reactions, flavour, and addictions. I think that a craving as

insatiable as mine that occurs only after consuming certain substances

should be classified as addiction.

Whereas, if I eat white rice, I can eat one grain or 10,000 grains and

it makes little difference to my mental or physical state. It just

provides calories and a small amount of nutrition (its main drawback).

Kat.

>

> This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

> of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet.

[Guest guest]

The number of calories was not important for me at this stage. I

wanted to see if I got the obsessive thoughts and cravings. If I'd

had a very small piece of cod and a couple of green beans and brussels

then I would have been fine, even thought it contains less calories.

Or, if I'd added a large bowl of white rice to the cod and sprouts and

increased the calories then I also would have been fine, but very full.

But you're right, in order to be more scientific, I need to be more

controlled in my studies. This was just me doing a mind experiment.

The mind is a very difficult thing to measure.

I suspect it was about the normal amount of calories I consume in one

meal, but I am not sure how much of the oil ended up on the food.

K.

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> Did you eat similar amount of calories?

>

>

> JR

>

> [ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

>

>

> OK. I did a one meal experiment to see what happened:

>

> I cooked up some garlic, strong red onions, ostrich, and a mixture of

> herbs from the garden (basil, oregano, cilantro, sage) in some olive

> oil (stir fried in a wok). It was very rich in flavour. Here's what

> I noticed:

>

> 1. I ate 2-3 times quicker than normal as I enjoyed the taste of it.

> 2. I was hungrier after the meal than before it, so I had to add a

> pear for dessert to curb my appetite.

> 3. I still want to eat, even though this meal was an hour ago.

> 4. I keep thinking about the food.

>

> This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

> of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet. What I

> am craving the most right now is the taste of the food, not the

> calories. I feel quite swollen, actually, even though I am still

> contemplating eating (which I won't).

>

> Completely unscientific, of course.

>

> Kat.

>

>

>

> > I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response

> > occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in

> > the NY Times.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The number of calories was not important for me at this stage. I

wanted to see if I got the obsessive thoughts and cravings. If I'd

had a very small piece of cod and a couple of green beans and brussels

then I would have been fine, even thought it contains less calories.

Or, if I'd added a large bowl of white rice to the cod and sprouts and

increased the calories then I also would have been fine, but very full.

But you're right, in order to be more scientific, I need to be more

controlled in my studies. This was just me doing a mind experiment.

The mind is a very difficult thing to measure.

I suspect it was about the normal amount of calories I consume in one

meal, but I am not sure how much of the oil ended up on the food.

K.

--- In , " " <crjohnr@b...>

wrote:

> Did you eat similar amount of calories?

>

>

> JR

>

> [ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

>

>

> OK. I did a one meal experiment to see what happened:

>

> I cooked up some garlic, strong red onions, ostrich, and a mixture of

> herbs from the garden (basil, oregano, cilantro, sage) in some olive

> oil (stir fried in a wok). It was very rich in flavour. Here's what

> I noticed:

>

> 1. I ate 2-3 times quicker than normal as I enjoyed the taste of it.

> 2. I was hungrier after the meal than before it, so I had to add a

> pear for dessert to curb my appetite.

> 3. I still want to eat, even though this meal was an hour ago.

> 4. I keep thinking about the food.

>

> This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

> of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet. What I

> am craving the most right now is the taste of the food, not the

> calories. I feel quite swollen, actually, even though I am still

> contemplating eating (which I won't).

>

> Completely unscientific, of course.

>

> Kat.

>

>

>

> > I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response

> > occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in

> > the NY Times.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kat:

If brown rice is a problem, it might be worth trying to figure out

which part of the grain is responsible. Is it the bran? Or the

germ? (it presumably is not the endosperm). So see if taking rice

bran is a problem on its own. If not then try rice germ. Then, once

you know which, say for example it is the germ, you could eat the

bran and still get the benefit of it.

You also might want to see whether the problem component of grains

other than rice causes similar difficulties ......... or whether it

is unique to rice. And depending on what you found you might be

able to draw some conclusions as to which food nutrient is the issue.

Just a few thoughts.

Rodney.

> >

> > This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past

couple

> > of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kat:

If brown rice is a problem, it might be worth trying to figure out

which part of the grain is responsible. Is it the bran? Or the

germ? (it presumably is not the endosperm). So see if taking rice

bran is a problem on its own. If not then try rice germ. Then, once

you know which, say for example it is the germ, you could eat the

bran and still get the benefit of it.

You also might want to see whether the problem component of grains

other than rice causes similar difficulties ......... or whether it

is unique to rice. And depending on what you found you might be

able to draw some conclusions as to which food nutrient is the issue.

Just a few thoughts.

Rodney.

> >

> > This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past

couple

> > of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet.

[Guest guest]

Haven't tried those yet. I wanted a stable base with no reactions.

Now I intend to add one food at a time to see how I react.

Kat.

> Wild rice? Buckwheat? etc.

>

> Positive Dennis

>

[Guest guest]

Haven't tried those yet. I wanted a stable base with no reactions.

Now I intend to add one food at a time to see how I react.

Kat.

> Wild rice? Buckwheat? etc.

>

> Positive Dennis

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rodney,

These are all good ideas. The nutrition aspect concerns me also, but

I intend to address that after I get the calories and cravings under

control.

I am gluten intolerant, and that may have something to do with my

reactions to food. It can lead to a leakier gut, so the undigested

proteins might be moving into my bloodstream. But that's speculation.

However, I can't help feeling that addiction is also the reason that

people are eating more. If you can't stop doing something that is bad

for you, then that is what I would call it.

I currently avoid all grains, except white rice.

K.

> Hi Kat:

>

> If brown rice is a problem, it might be worth trying to figure out

> which part of the grain is responsible. Is it the bran? Or the

> germ?

[Guest guest]

Hi Rodney,

These are all good ideas. The nutrition aspect concerns me also, but

I intend to address that after I get the calories and cravings under

control.

I am gluten intolerant, and that may have something to do with my

reactions to food. It can lead to a leakier gut, so the undigested

proteins might be moving into my bloodstream. But that's speculation.

However, I can't help feeling that addiction is also the reason that

people are eating more. If you can't stop doing something that is bad

for you, then that is what I would call it.

I currently avoid all grains, except white rice.

K.

> Hi Kat:

>

> If brown rice is a problem, it might be worth trying to figure out

> which part of the grain is responsible. Is it the bran? Or the

> germ?

[Guest guest]

I'm addicted to all fruit, so I keep it out of my diet. I could eat

it all day long. As soon as I get to Wild Oats, I head to the fruit

section - but now I have to control that urge. The pear I ate last

night was the first in months (it was my room-mates), and I only had

that because of the intense cravings caused by the main meal.

I grew up on a council estate in England in the 70's. The Labour

Party and socialism were rampant, and my dad couldn't find work. We

lived on child benefit payments, social security, and housing benefit.

The only way we could survive was for dad to buy food that nobody

liked. The phrase " You can't have that, because you like it, and

it'll be gone in 5 minutes " was heard again and again. Perhaps my dad

was wise?

If CRONies stick to bland food that doesn't make you go mmmmmmm, I

suspect they will be able to reduce calories easier and stay on the

diet longer. Nobody here talks much of failure to stick to the diet,

or the cravings that we deal with, but I'm sure it happens. And, who

knows, maybe we'll reduce inflammation in the body also?

Kat.

> Maybe, but few if any of these discussions over this issue discuss

addiction to food in relation to broccoli or oatmeal or berries.

[Guest guest]

I'm addicted to all fruit, so I keep it out of my diet. I could eat

it all day long. As soon as I get to Wild Oats, I head to the fruit

section - but now I have to control that urge. The pear I ate last

night was the first in months (it was my room-mates), and I only had

that because of the intense cravings caused by the main meal.

I grew up on a council estate in England in the 70's. The Labour

Party and socialism were rampant, and my dad couldn't find work. We

lived on child benefit payments, social security, and housing benefit.

The only way we could survive was for dad to buy food that nobody

liked. The phrase " You can't have that, because you like it, and

it'll be gone in 5 minutes " was heard again and again. Perhaps my dad

was wise?

If CRONies stick to bland food that doesn't make you go mmmmmmm, I

suspect they will be able to reduce calories easier and stay on the

diet longer. Nobody here talks much of failure to stick to the diet,

or the cravings that we deal with, but I'm sure it happens. And, who

knows, maybe we'll reduce inflammation in the body also?

Kat.

> Maybe, but few if any of these discussions over this issue discuss

addiction to food in relation to broccoli or oatmeal or berries.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Good to hear you have things under control. Just out of curiosity

what method(s) did you use to determine your ideal weight? There has

been quite a bit of healthy discussion of this here in the past and

there is far from full agreement here about it. Indeed my views

about what my ideal weight " is " have changed quite considerably over

the years. ty.

Rodney.

> Katrina,

> Your ideas resonate with my experiences. I notice myself

saying, " I'm just

> tired of eating " when in the non-addictive phases. I've also

noticed that

> the " bland " foods start tasting better, actually pretty good, but

not good

> enough to binge on....just satisfying.

>

> Thanks for reifying this for me. I'm a binger/yo-yo type. With only

15 lbs

> to go to my ideal BW, this might do the trick...finally.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Good to hear you have things under control. Just out of curiosity

what method(s) did you use to determine your ideal weight? There has

been quite a bit of healthy discussion of this here in the past and

there is far from full agreement here about it. Indeed my views

about what my ideal weight " is " have changed quite considerably over

the years. ty.

Rodney.

> Katrina,

> Your ideas resonate with my experiences. I notice myself

saying, " I'm just

> tired of eating " when in the non-addictive phases. I've also

noticed that

> the " bland " foods start tasting better, actually pretty good, but

not good

> enough to binge on....just satisfying.

>

> Thanks for reifying this for me. I'm a binger/yo-yo type. With only

15 lbs

> to go to my ideal BW, this might do the trick...finally.

>

>

[Guest guest]

My pleasure. And if you think about it, it's actually very close to

the diet that asian fisherman followed for most of their history:

fish, rice, veggies, and the occasional meat. And I think various

cancer victims follow a similar diet when trying to get well.

On another group (PALEOFOOD - excellent data), there are other people

following the bland approach to food. So it's not that uncommon,

particularly in those who yo-yo and have food sensitivities.

I hope you reach your ideal weight.

I like this quote:

" To safeguard one's health at the cost of too strict a diet is a

tiresome illness indeed " . -Francios de La Rochefoucauld

Kat.

> Katrina,

> Thanks for reifying this for me. I'm a binger/yo-yo type. With only

15 lbs

> to go to my ideal BW, this might do the trick...finally.

>

>