Re: Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

[Guest guest]

I use lots of different hot peppers in dishes and find the extra heat causes me

to consume more drink with such meals and eat

slightly slower. I manage my portion size in advance by freezing and reheating

individual servings, so it doesn't affect my intake

but I can imagine an ad lib eater being satisfied with less calories due to

those two mechanisms.

JR

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

> So salty, spicy foods cause people to eat more foods, and if you

don't eat those you'll eat less calories.

I thought someone had previously posted here an article

indicating that spicy/hot foods curbed appetite.

-

[Guest guest]

I use lots of different hot peppers in dishes and find the extra heat causes me

to consume more drink with such meals and eat

slightly slower. I manage my portion size in advance by freezing and reheating

individual servings, so it doesn't affect my intake

but I can imagine an ad lib eater being satisfied with less calories due to

those two mechanisms.

JR

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

> So salty, spicy foods cause people to eat more foods, and if you

don't eat those you'll eat less calories.

I thought someone had previously posted here an article

indicating that spicy/hot foods curbed appetite.

-

[Guest guest]

Did you eat similar amount of calories?

JR

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

OK. I did a one meal experiment to see what happened:

I cooked up some garlic, strong red onions, ostrich, and a mixture of

herbs from the garden (basil, oregano, cilantro, sage) in some olive

oil (stir fried in a wok). It was very rich in flavour. Here's what

I noticed:

1. I ate 2-3 times quicker than normal as I enjoyed the taste of it.

2. I was hungrier after the meal than before it, so I had to add a

pear for dessert to curb my appetite.

3. I still want to eat, even though this meal was an hour ago.

4. I keep thinking about the food.

This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet. What I

am craving the most right now is the taste of the food, not the

calories. I feel quite swollen, actually, even though I am still

contemplating eating (which I won't).

Completely unscientific, of course.

Kat.

> I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response

> occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in

> the NY Times.

[Guest guest]

Did you eat similar amount of calories?

JR

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

OK. I did a one meal experiment to see what happened:

I cooked up some garlic, strong red onions, ostrich, and a mixture of

herbs from the garden (basil, oregano, cilantro, sage) in some olive

oil (stir fried in a wok). It was very rich in flavour. Here's what

I noticed:

1. I ate 2-3 times quicker than normal as I enjoyed the taste of it.

2. I was hungrier after the meal than before it, so I had to add a

pear for dessert to curb my appetite.

3. I still want to eat, even though this meal was an hour ago.

4. I keep thinking about the food.

This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet. What I

am craving the most right now is the taste of the food, not the

calories. I feel quite swollen, actually, even though I am still

contemplating eating (which I won't).

Completely unscientific, of course.

Kat.

> I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response

> occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in

> the NY Times.

[Guest guest]

Why white rice instead of brown?

on 9/15/2005 11:24 PM, Katrina at katnap@... wrote:

This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet.

[Guest guest]

Why white rice instead of brown?

on 9/15/2005 11:24 PM, Katrina at katnap@... wrote:

This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past couple

of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet.

[Guest guest]

Wild rice? Buckwheat? etc.

Positive Dennis

Katrina wrote:

Brown rice makes me feel awful, and my feet start itching insanely.

It's an almost instantaneous reaction. Plus, when I eat brown rice, I

get the craving/addictive sensations and I eat too much (i.e., go well

over my daily limit).

As I said, there appears to be a link between inflammatory/immune

reactions, flavour, and addictions. I think that a craving as

insatiable as mine that occurs only after consuming certain substances

should be classified as addiction.

Whereas, if I eat white rice, I can eat one grain or 10,000 grains and

it makes little difference to my mental or physical state. It just

provides calories and a small amount of nutrition (its main drawback).

Kat.

>

> This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past

couple

> of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet.

[Guest guest]

Wild rice? Buckwheat? etc.

Positive Dennis

Katrina wrote:

Brown rice makes me feel awful, and my feet start itching insanely.

It's an almost instantaneous reaction. Plus, when I eat brown rice, I

get the craving/addictive sensations and I eat too much (i.e., go well

over my daily limit).

As I said, there appears to be a link between inflammatory/immune

reactions, flavour, and addictions. I think that a craving as

insatiable as mine that occurs only after consuming certain substances

should be classified as addiction.

Whereas, if I eat white rice, I can eat one grain or 10,000 grains and

it makes little difference to my mental or physical state. It just

provides calories and a small amount of nutrition (its main drawback).

Kat.

>

> This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past

couple

> of months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet.

[Guest guest]

Back in the days of the famous Walter Kempner " rice diet " , he used white rice

instead of brown rice.

The reason why, and why it is often recommended over brown rice in some " detox "

or " allergy " diets, is because it is less allergenic.

Mostly due to the lower protein content, as that is the component many people

have immune reactions to.

Regards

jeff

[Guest guest]

Back in the days of the famous Walter Kempner " rice diet " , he used white rice

instead of brown rice.

The reason why, and why it is often recommended over brown rice in some " detox "

or " allergy " diets, is because it is less allergenic.

Mostly due to the lower protein content, as that is the component many people

have immune reactions to.

Regards

jeff

[Guest guest]

There's a ricediet book written by Kitty ti of Duke Univ, who states there is something magic about rice. Perhaps there is. When I sense I'm losing control of my weight, I go back to steamed brown rice, ffmilk and fruit.

Notice that 3 cups of rice(18oz wt), 3 cups milk(24oz fl), 3 cups fruit (15 oz wt) is

993 kcals. So for me that's a deficit of about 800 kcals. It wouldn't hurt if I did that 4 times per day.

It's filling, low protein, not exactly CRON, but a LOT better than fasting, IMO.

It's 16% P / 5% F / 79% C. So probably not good for diabetics.

That was for my overweight condition and it may not suit everyone - they may need more protein.

It is bland and I picked it for that reason, having never heard of the rice diet, because I was searching out things that I might be allergic to. It worked for me, but it doesn't work for a 600#er I saw on TV. He dropped like 300# and quit. I say it didn't work because he recovered the lost weight in the following year.

So I ask the question "why would he have recovered his lost weight?" And I look for a scientific answer, not a critical one. Something in his system wants his body at 600#. A pointer is set at 600#, and perhaps the hunger becomes overbearing.

Other 600#ers have kept their weight off once they spent 18 months at Duke. Their desire must be supported by their metabolism, somehow. So Pavlovian may be the way to describe the effect but it is not supported with the metabolic scientific data. But maybe I missed it in the report. I get "up-to-here" with stuff, and I quit reading.

I do believe the idea that it's just calories in / calories out is just too simple a statement to describe the process. Too many variables, like certain foods cooked a certain way influence hunger, other ways not.

EG, this morning I woke up a pound heavier than I expected, so I didn't eat yet. That simple. I am not hungry - hardly ever am, but I overcome the hunger one way, by thinking that I must have several pounds of fat my body can use for energy. Maybe my conscious thought programs my body.

I don't know, but I have since about 1961 controlled my weight by just skipping breakfast. And I've been hyperactive my whole life. In spite of that I grew to 234#, a lot more than 's 200#, but surrounded by heavier folks, I didn't think much of it. So partly, my weight gain was acceptance of the weight increase.

I once told a friend I had gained 2# per year for 20 yrs, and I wanted to gain 60# more. He missed the joke.

Anyway at 172 - 180, I feel a lot lighter, more flexible, maybe stronger. And I run on 1800 kcals most days, more if I exercise more. I can walk 3.25 mph for 3 miles, max at least 3.5 mph. So I've trained myself to accept that weight, that exercise level, that food intake and my question will always be, I guess, what weight should I set?

Maybe I'll drop to 165# just to match 's weight (Seth, ie).

Regards.

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

OK. I did a one meal experiment to see what happened:I cooked up some garlic, strong red onions, ostrich, and a mixture ofherbs from the garden (basil, oregano, cilantro, sage) in some oliveoil (stir fried in a wok). It was very rich in flavour. Here's whatI noticed:1. I ate 2-3 times quicker than normal as I enjoyed the taste of it.2. I was hungrier after the meal than before it, so I had to add apear for dessert to curb my appetite.3. I still want to eat, even though this meal was an hour ago.4. I keep thinking about the food.This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past coupleof months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet. What Iam craving the most right now is the taste of the food, not thecalories. I feel quite swollen, actually, even though I am stillcontemplating eating (which I won't).Completely unscientific, of course.Kat.> I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response> occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in> the NY Times.

[Guest guest]

There's a ricediet book written by Kitty ti of Duke Univ, who states there is something magic about rice. Perhaps there is. When I sense I'm losing control of my weight, I go back to steamed brown rice, ffmilk and fruit.

Notice that 3 cups of rice(18oz wt), 3 cups milk(24oz fl), 3 cups fruit (15 oz wt) is

993 kcals. So for me that's a deficit of about 800 kcals. It wouldn't hurt if I did that 4 times per day.

It's filling, low protein, not exactly CRON, but a LOT better than fasting, IMO.

It's 16% P / 5% F / 79% C. So probably not good for diabetics.

That was for my overweight condition and it may not suit everyone - they may need more protein.

It is bland and I picked it for that reason, having never heard of the rice diet, because I was searching out things that I might be allergic to. It worked for me, but it doesn't work for a 600#er I saw on TV. He dropped like 300# and quit. I say it didn't work because he recovered the lost weight in the following year.

So I ask the question "why would he have recovered his lost weight?" And I look for a scientific answer, not a critical one. Something in his system wants his body at 600#. A pointer is set at 600#, and perhaps the hunger becomes overbearing.

Other 600#ers have kept their weight off once they spent 18 months at Duke. Their desire must be supported by their metabolism, somehow. So Pavlovian may be the way to describe the effect but it is not supported with the metabolic scientific data. But maybe I missed it in the report. I get "up-to-here" with stuff, and I quit reading.

I do believe the idea that it's just calories in / calories out is just too simple a statement to describe the process. Too many variables, like certain foods cooked a certain way influence hunger, other ways not.

EG, this morning I woke up a pound heavier than I expected, so I didn't eat yet. That simple. I am not hungry - hardly ever am, but I overcome the hunger one way, by thinking that I must have several pounds of fat my body can use for energy. Maybe my conscious thought programs my body.

I don't know, but I have since about 1961 controlled my weight by just skipping breakfast. And I've been hyperactive my whole life. In spite of that I grew to 234#, a lot more than 's 200#, but surrounded by heavier folks, I didn't think much of it. So partly, my weight gain was acceptance of the weight increase.

I once told a friend I had gained 2# per year for 20 yrs, and I wanted to gain 60# more. He missed the joke.

Anyway at 172 - 180, I feel a lot lighter, more flexible, maybe stronger. And I run on 1800 kcals most days, more if I exercise more. I can walk 3.25 mph for 3 miles, max at least 3.5 mph. So I've trained myself to accept that weight, that exercise level, that food intake and my question will always be, I guess, what weight should I set?

Maybe I'll drop to 165# just to match 's weight (Seth, ie).

Regards.

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

OK. I did a one meal experiment to see what happened:I cooked up some garlic, strong red onions, ostrich, and a mixture ofherbs from the garden (basil, oregano, cilantro, sage) in some oliveoil (stir fried in a wok). It was very rich in flavour. Here's whatI noticed:1. I ate 2-3 times quicker than normal as I enjoyed the taste of it.2. I was hungrier after the meal than before it, so I had to add apear for dessert to curb my appetite.3. I still want to eat, even though this meal was an hour ago.4. I keep thinking about the food.This contrasts to the lack of appetite I have had for the past coupleof months on my white rice and plain fish/meat/veggies diet. What Iam craving the most right now is the taste of the food, not thecalories. I feel quite swollen, actually, even though I am stillcontemplating eating (which I won't).Completely unscientific, of course.Kat.> I suspect there is an inflammatory/autoimmune/addiction response> occuring in addition to the mechanism sugested by the individual in> the NY Times.

[Guest guest]

Agree it might be addiction.

I find rice more favorable over other grains, except I do corn also.

I just chose brown rice cause I liked it.

I get severely criticized by some diabetics, but I don't have diabetes - every one is diff.

I found there are long term "allergies" to some foods, so I cut those when I found them, regardless how "nutrient wise" they are.

Regards.

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Hi Rodney,These are all good ideas. The nutrition aspect concerns me also, butI intend to address that after I get the calories and cravings undercontrol. I am gluten intolerant, and that may have something to do with myreactions to food. It can lead to a leakier gut, so the undigestedproteins might be moving into my bloodstream. But that's speculation.However, I can't help feeling that addiction is also the reason thatpeople are eating more. If you can't stop doing something that is badfor you, then that is what I would call it.I currently avoid all grains, except white rice.K.

[Guest guest]

Agree it might be addiction.

I find rice more favorable over other grains, except I do corn also.

I just chose brown rice cause I liked it.

I get severely criticized by some diabetics, but I don't have diabetes - every one is diff.

I found there are long term "allergies" to some foods, so I cut those when I found them, regardless how "nutrient wise" they are.

Regards.

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Hi Rodney,These are all good ideas. The nutrition aspect concerns me also, butI intend to address that after I get the calories and cravings undercontrol. I am gluten intolerant, and that may have something to do with myreactions to food. It can lead to a leakier gut, so the undigestedproteins might be moving into my bloodstream. But that's speculation.However, I can't help feeling that addiction is also the reason thatpeople are eating more. If you can't stop doing something that is badfor you, then that is what I would call it.I currently avoid all grains, except white rice.K.

[Guest guest]

There has been recent articles about obesity for some being similar to drug addiction. Problem is we can't give

up eating cold turkey, because then we'd be dead turkeys.....

JR

-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of jwwrightSent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Agree it might be addiction.

I find rice more favorable over other grains, except I do corn also.

I just chose brown rice cause I liked it.

I get severely criticized by some diabetics, but I don't have diabetes - every one is diff.

I found there are long term "allergies" to some foods, so I cut those when I found them, regardless how "nutrient wise" they are.

Regards.

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Hi Rodney,These are all good ideas. The nutrition aspect concerns me also, butI intend to address that after I get the calories and cravings undercontrol. I am gluten intolerant, and that may have something to do with myreactions to food. It can lead to a leakier gut, so the undigestedproteins might be moving into my bloodstream. But that's speculation.However, I can't help feeling that addiction is also the reason thatpeople are eating more. If you can't stop doing something that is badfor you, then that is what I would call it.I currently avoid all grains, except white rice.K.

[Guest guest]

There has been recent articles about obesity for some being similar to drug addiction. Problem is we can't give

up eating cold turkey, because then we'd be dead turkeys.....

JR

-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of jwwrightSent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Agree it might be addiction.

I find rice more favorable over other grains, except I do corn also.

I just chose brown rice cause I liked it.

I get severely criticized by some diabetics, but I don't have diabetes - every one is diff.

I found there are long term "allergies" to some foods, so I cut those when I found them, regardless how "nutrient wise" they are.

Regards.

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Hi Rodney,These are all good ideas. The nutrition aspect concerns me also, butI intend to address that after I get the calories and cravings undercontrol. I am gluten intolerant, and that may have something to do with myreactions to food. It can lead to a leakier gut, so the undigestedproteins might be moving into my bloodstream. But that's speculation.However, I can't help feeling that addiction is also the reason thatpeople are eating more. If you can't stop doing something that is badfor you, then that is what I would call it.I currently avoid all grains, except white rice.K.

[Guest guest]

>>There has been recent articles about obesity for some being similar to drug

addiction. Problem is we can't give up eating cold turkey, because then we'd be

dead turkeys.....

Maybe, but few if any of these discussions over this issue discuss addiction to

food in relation to broccoli or oatmeal or berries.

So, while we may not be able to give up food 100%, we surely dont have to eat

candy,cookies, sugar, potato chips, junk food, etc, or those foods are discussed

when it comes to addiction to food.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

>>There has been recent articles about obesity for some being similar to drug

addiction. Problem is we can't give up eating cold turkey, because then we'd be

dead turkeys.....

Maybe, but few if any of these discussions over this issue discuss addiction to

food in relation to broccoli or oatmeal or berries.

So, while we may not be able to give up food 100%, we surely dont have to eat

candy,cookies, sugar, potato chips, junk food, etc, or those foods are discussed

when it comes to addiction to food.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Fruit doesn't have that many calories.

5 servings (15 oz) is about 200.

Like veggies, I consider those nutrient rich.

Regards.

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

I'm addicted to all fruit, so I keep it out of my diet. I could eatit all day long. As soon as I get to Wild Oats, I head to the fruitsection - but now I have to control that urge. The pear I ate lastnight was the first in months (it was my room-mates), and I only hadthat because of the intense cravings caused by the main meal.I grew up on a council estate in England in the 70's. The LabourParty and socialism were rampant, and my dad couldn't find work. Welived on child benefit payments, social security, and housing benefit.The only way we could survive was for dad to buy food that nobodyliked. The phrase "You can't have that, because you like it, andit'll be gone in 5 minutes" was heard again and again. Perhaps my dadwas wise?If CRONies stick to bland food that doesn't make you go mmmmmmm, Isuspect they will be able to reduce calories easier and stay on thediet longer. Nobody here talks much of failure to stick to the diet,or the cravings that we deal with, but I'm sure it happens. And, whoknows, maybe we'll reduce inflammation in the body also?Kat.> Maybe, but few if any of these discussions over this issue discussaddiction to food in relation to broccoli or oatmeal or berries.

[Guest guest]

Fruit doesn't have that many calories.

5 servings (15 oz) is about 200.

Like veggies, I consider those nutrient rich.

Regards.

[ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

I'm addicted to all fruit, so I keep it out of my diet. I could eatit all day long. As soon as I get to Wild Oats, I head to the fruitsection - but now I have to control that urge. The pear I ate lastnight was the first in months (it was my room-mates), and I only hadthat because of the intense cravings caused by the main meal.I grew up on a council estate in England in the 70's. The LabourParty and socialism were rampant, and my dad couldn't find work. Welived on child benefit payments, social security, and housing benefit.The only way we could survive was for dad to buy food that nobodyliked. The phrase "You can't have that, because you like it, andit'll be gone in 5 minutes" was heard again and again. Perhaps my dadwas wise?If CRONies stick to bland food that doesn't make you go mmmmmmm, Isuspect they will be able to reduce calories easier and stay on thediet longer. Nobody here talks much of failure to stick to the diet,or the cravings that we deal with, but I'm sure it happens. And, whoknows, maybe we'll reduce inflammation in the body also?Kat.> Maybe, but few if any of these discussions over this issue discussaddiction to food in relation to broccoli or oatmeal or berries.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

The problem is in knowing what to give up.

I don't think Seth has a handle on the real problem yet, but just restricting calories takes me only so far without complications. There are hundred's of known hormones by Hadley's definition of a hormone, and more are being found. All noted with a "we don't know how this works.".

Regards.

RE: [ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

There has been recent articles about obesity for some being similar to drug addiction. Problem is we can't give

up eating cold turkey, because then we'd be dead turkeys.....

JR

-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of jwwrightSent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Agree it might be addiction.

I find rice more favorable over other grains, except I do corn also.

I just chose brown rice cause I liked it.

I get severely criticized by some diabetics, but I don't have diabetes - every one is diff.

I found there are long term "allergies" to some foods, so I cut those when I found them, regardless how "nutrient wise" they are.

Regards.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

The problem is in knowing what to give up.

I don't think Seth has a handle on the real problem yet, but just restricting calories takes me only so far without complications. There are hundred's of known hormones by Hadley's definition of a hormone, and more are being found. All noted with a "we don't know how this works.".

Regards.

RE: [ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

There has been recent articles about obesity for some being similar to drug addiction. Problem is we can't give

up eating cold turkey, because then we'd be dead turkeys.....

JR

-----Original Message-----From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of jwwrightSent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: A Pavlovian Theory of Weight Control

Agree it might be addiction.

I find rice more favorable over other grains, except I do corn also.

I just chose brown rice cause I liked it.

I get severely criticized by some diabetics, but I don't have diabetes - every one is diff.

I found there are long term "allergies" to some foods, so I cut those when I found them, regardless how "nutrient wise" they are.

Regards.

[Guest guest]

Katrina,

Your ideas resonate with my experiences. I notice myself saying, " I'm just

tired of eating " when in the non-addictive phases. I've also noticed that

the " bland " foods start tasting better, actually pretty good, but not good

enough to binge on....just satisfying.

Thanks for reifying this for me. I'm a binger/yo-yo type. With only 15 lbs

to go to my ideal BW, this might do the trick...finally.

[Guest guest]

Katrina,

Your ideas resonate with my experiences. I notice myself saying, " I'm just

tired of eating " when in the non-addictive phases. I've also noticed that

the " bland " foods start tasting better, actually pretty good, but not good

enough to binge on....just satisfying.

Thanks for reifying this for me. I'm a binger/yo-yo type. With only 15 lbs

to go to my ideal BW, this might do the trick...finally.