Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

[Guest guest]

>

> and as jes said,,,suppose you are pace dependant and not aware of

it,

>

>

I'm not sure about this, but I sort of think my Device nurse said

your can't shut the pacing off with a magnet, only the

defibrillator. I'd have to ask again to be sure.

Bridget

[Guest guest]

Given that my husband is a broadcast engineer, I think he knows his

magnets.

Bridget

> >

> > >

> > > Still for anyone interested, the strongest magnets I know of

come

> >out of

> > > computer hard drives. If you ever have a disk crash, crack open

the

> >old

> > > drive and find two small, powerful magnets in the vicinity of

the

> >head

> > > armature. Amazing little buggers! WARNING -- you can get a bad

> >pinch if you

> > > put them together near a fingertip.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!

> http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

-Anyone noticed that the ads that come up when reading messages

are heavily into bio magnets?

Ralph

[Guest guest]

OK let's not fight about magnets and who knows more. It was really a general

interest comment for anyone interested in magnets as I am.

I too have had an FCC Broadcast Engineering license for 28 years and teach

electronics etc...

Merely a comment about some interesting small magnets. If anyone can get

their hands on some you will find them incredibly powerful for their size,

and really do watch out for your fingers if you set them against any metal.

Peace -- Ken

>From: " Bridget " <rumplegroups@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

>Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:04:49 -0000

>

>

>Given that my husband is a broadcast engineer, I think he knows his

>magnets.

>

>Bridget

>

>

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Still for anyone interested, the strongest magnets I know of

>come

> > >out of

> > > > computer hard drives. If you ever have a disk crash, crack open

>the

> > >old

> > > > drive and find two small, powerful magnets in the vicinity of

>the

> > >head

> > > > armature. Amazing little buggers! WARNING -- you can get a bad

> > >pinch if you

> > > > put them together near a fingertip.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > _________________________________________________________________

> > Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!

> > http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/

>

_________________________________________________________________

Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide.

http://special.msn.com/home/firsthome.armx

[Guest guest]

Yes I have!

That is just what I need to wear every day to lose weight, a magnetic belt...Not...LOL...

I think that is called irony Ralph. :-)

Dave

Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

-Anyone noticed that the ads that come up when reading messagesare heavily into bio magnets?RalphPlease visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

[Guest guest]

I'm not fighting about it. It's just that you make it sound as if

the magnet in my hard drive is more powerful than the magnet in my

speakers. It's not. It may be more powerful in a size/power ratio,

but it is tiny. The power in my speaker magnet is much greater

overall because it is a bigger magnet.

Bridget

ps - we've found over the years that having the license and/or

teaching doesn't necessarily equate to knowledge in the field. Heck,

even working in the field has not been a guarentee of that.

Obviously, you are quite knowledgable . . . a fact I'm sure your

students have been thankful for.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Still for anyone interested, the strongest magnets I know of

> >come

> > > >out of

> > > > > computer hard drives. If you ever have a disk crash, crack

open

> >the

> > > >old

> > > > > drive and find two small, powerful magnets in the vicinity

of

> >the

> > > >head

> > > > > armature. Amazing little buggers! WARNING -- you can get a

bad

> > > >pinch if you

> > > > > put them together near a fingertip.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

_________________________________________________________________

> > > Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!

> > > http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying

Guide.

> http://special.msn.com/home/firsthome.armx

[Guest guest]

For those interested: In the article at the St. Jude website,

they call for a donut shaped magnet.

A complete copy of their article is below, except for the illustrations. Obviously, this information pertains to

the St.Jude models. Others may work

somewhat differently. The link which

includes the illustrations follows:

http://www.sjm.com/documents/resources/magnetuseforsjmicds.pdf

Norm

Technical Insight July 2002 Magnet Use for SJM

Implanted Cardioverter Defibrillators Technical Services 15900

Valley View Court Sylmar, CA 91342 USA

Magnet Use for SJM Implanted Cardioverter

Defibrillators

When a

patient with a Ventritex® or St. Jude Medical® ICD needs to have

his or her high-voltage therapiestemporarily

disabled for a medical procedure, use a magnet as a

convenient alternative to temporary programming.

Switch Closure (Magnet Mode): If the device is

exposed to a constant magnetic field of sufficient strength (22.5 Gauss), a

reed switch is closed within the device. This causes the detection circuitry to

be temporarily interrupted, thereby

disabling any tachyarrhythmia detection. Once the magnetic field is removed, arrhythmiadetection is again enabled.

switch

closure will not affect the Bradycardia pacing

function – Bradycardia pacing will continue as programmed. Unlike the function of a pacemaker, the brady pacing operation of an ICD

is not forced to paceasynchronously

when exposed to a magnet.

Note: ICDs can have their

magnet response programmed to IGNORE the placement of a magnet and thereforecontinue to deliver

therapy even if a magnet is positioned properly over the device.

Be sure to verify that this featureis programmed as required to insure proper magnet response.

If the

patient needs their high-voltage therapies suspended for longer than 8 hours, we recommend that the device be temporarily programmed to Defib Off, Bradycardia Pacing

Only, or All Functions Off depending on the programmer options for each

specific model.

Position the magnet off-center so that the curve of the

“donut” magnet is over the top or bottom end of the deviceas shown below.

Improper magnet placement may hinder reed switch closure and could lead to

undesired deliveredtherapy.

After the

procedure is complete, removal of the magnet will restore the device to its

previous settings. Werecommend that the device

be interrogated to verify programmed parameters.

If you have

questions or want to discuss this topic in greater

detail, contact Technical Services at 800.722.3774.

800.722.3774

Re: Having a

magnet to turn off your own ICD

Hi Bob,

You should

NOT put a magnet on your ICD since you do not know what

the

consequences might be. Anyone who is not educated as to how their

device

operates or knowledgeable as to what function their ICD

performs for

them should NEVER use a magnet to shut their device off

ever.

And there is

nothing wrong with not knowing how your device operates.

For some,

letting there doctor make all decisions in regard to there

ICD without

questioning or asking details of what there device does

or how

exactly it functions is preferable to them.

I respect

that. Why worry about it, let the pro's handle it all.

But for me,

I am an engineer and by nature want to know exactly what

this gizmo

inside me does and exactly how it works.

In my ICD

(ST Jude V-199) there is a " switch " that when closed,

prevents

delivery of " Tachyarrhythmia therapy. "

The reed

switch closes in the presence of a " Strong magnetic field. "

A magnet

placed over the ICD can, therefor, be used to prevent the

delivery of

therapy if no one is around to turn the device off.

The ICD also

can be programmed by your doctor to ignore the position

of the reed

switch.

If a device

is programmed in this manner a magnet will not have any

effect on

the operation of the ICD whatsoever.

Meaning it

will deliver therapy (Shocks) even in the presence of a

strong

magnetic field.

My User

manual says that if one magnet is not sufficient to interrupt

operation of

the pulse generator, I am to place a second magnet on

top of the

fist one and press firmly on the magnet to decrease the

distance

between the magnet and the device. Also " Bradycardia pacing "

and

" Non-invasive stimulation " are not effected by magnet application

on my

device.

OK, I know,

too much info for you, sorry for that, I just can't seem

to shake

this feeling of defensiveness about this topic and feel the

need to

further explain myself.

God bless

and good health comrade, ;-)

Dave

>

> >

* hi everybody,,

>

>

> i think

id hesitate before turning a magnet loose on my icd. one

never

> knows

what the consequences may be.

>

> suppose

to much magnet could damage the thing and then the

insurance

> company

leaves you flying in the wind looking for the many

thousands to

> replace

it.

>

> and as jes

said,,,suppose you are pace dependant and not aware of

it,

>

>

>

just a thought,,

>

>

bob in ms

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone:

I don't know if you read this article about the magnet being put on the ICD to stop therapy while the pacing still goes on. In the article it says, improper placement of the Magnet could lead to undesired therapy, so for the ones that will do this make sure you get your doctor show it to you and choose your magnet otherwise while you are getting shock needlessly(like it happened to Sharon) and constantly you can actually increase the frequency of the therapy or how many shock you will receive per whatever seconds. I will not comment on my opinion on this until I ask him March 2nd when my appt is. Although I believe there is a need for a back up system to stop unnecessary therapy until the pros arrive. Because I don't want what happened to Sharon (sorry honey) happen to me. Good Luck. TURK

RE: Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

For those interested: In the article at the St. Jude website, they call for a donut shaped magnet. A complete copy of their article is below, except for the illustrations. Obviously, this information pertains to the St.Jude models. Others may work somewhat differently. The link which includes the illustrations follows: http://www.sjm.com/documents/resources/magnetuseforsjmicds.pdf

Norm

Technical Insight July 2002 Magnet Use for SJM Implanted Cardioverter Defibrillators Technical Services 15900 Valley View Court Sylmar, CA 91342 USA

Magnet Use for SJM Implanted Cardioverter Defibrillators

When a patient with a Ventritex® or St. Jude Medical® ICD needs to have his or her high-voltage therapiestemporarily disabled for a medical procedure, use a magnet as a convenient alternative to temporary programming.

Switch Closure (Magnet Mode): If the device is exposed to a constant magnetic field of sufficient strength (22.5 Gauss), a reed switch is closed within the device. This causes the detection circuitry to be temporarily interrupted, thereby disabling any tachyarrhythmia detection. Once the magnetic field is removed, arrhythmiadetection is again enabled.

switch closure will not affect the Bradycardia pacing function – Bradycardia pacing will continue as programmed. Unlike the function of a pacemaker, the brady pacing operation of an ICD is not forced to paceasynchronously when exposed to a magnet.

Note: ICDs can have their magnet response programmed to IGNORE the placement of a magnet and thereforecontinue to deliver therapy even if a magnet is positioned properly over the device. Be sure to verify that this featureis programmed as required to insure proper magnet response.

If the patient needs their high-voltage therapies suspended for longer than 8 hours, we recommend that the device be temporarily programmed to Defib Off, Bradycardia Pacing Only, or All Functions Off depending on the programmer options for each specific model.

Position the magnet off-center so that the curve of the “donut” magnet is over the top or bottom end of the deviceas shown below. Improper magnet placement may hinder reed switch closure and could lead to undesired deliveredtherapy.

After the procedure is complete, removal of the magnet will restore the device to its previous settings. Werecommend that the device be interrogated to verify programmed parameters.

If you have questions or want to discuss this topic in greater detail, contact Technical Services at 800.722.3774.

800.722.3774

-----Original Message-----From: red6903904 [mailto:bobcat256@...] Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

Hi Bob,You should NOT put a magnet on your ICD since you do not know what the consequences might be. Anyone who is not educated as to how their device operates or knowledgeable as to what function their ICD performs for them should NEVER use a magnet to shut their device off ever.And there is nothing wrong with not knowing how your device operates. For some, letting there doctor make all decisions in regard to there ICD without questioning or asking details of what there device does or how exactly it functions is preferable to them.I respect that. Why worry about it, let the pro's handle it all.But for me, I am an engineer and by nature want to know exactly what this gizmo inside me does and exactly how it works. In my ICD (ST Jude V-199) there is a " switch" that when closed, prevents delivery of "Tachyarrhythmia therapy."The reed switch closes in the presence of a "Strong magnetic field." A magnet placed over the ICD can, therefor, be used to prevent the delivery of therapy if no one is around to turn the device off.The ICD also can be programmed by your doctor to ignore the position of the reed switch.If a device is programmed in this manner a magnet will not have any effect on the operation of the ICD whatsoever. Meaning it will deliver therapy (Shocks) even in the presence of a strong magnetic field. My User manual says that if one magnet is not sufficient to interrupt operation of the pulse generator, I am to place a second magnet on top of the fist one and press firmly on the magnet to decrease the distance between the magnet and the device. Also "Bradycardia pacing" and "Non-invasive stimulation" are not effected by magnet application on my device. OK, I know, too much info for you, sorry for that, I just can't seem to shake this feeling of defensiveness about this topic and feel the need to further explain myself.God bless and good health comrade, ;-)Dave> > > * hi everybody,,> > > i think id hesitate before turning a magnet loose on my icd. one never > knows what the consequences may be.> > suppose to much magnet could damage the thing and then the insurance > company leaves you flying in the wind looking for the many thousands to > replace it.> > and as jes said,,,suppose you are pace dependant and not aware of it,> > > just a thought,,> > bob in ms Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/24/2004 12:29:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, norm@... writes:

In the article at the St. Jude website, they call for a donut shaped magnet. A complete copy of their article is below, except for the illustrations.

I have stayed quiet about this issue but because Norm pointed this out I feel I should mention that when I had ECT (shock therapy) for my depression about a year and a half ago I had to have the magnet placed over my ICD before they could administer the therapy. The Mfg (St Jude) provided a donut magnet to the hospital for this purpose. Only during the brief treatment did they place it over my ICD site and once removed it went back to normal.

M in CA

[Guest guest]

Wow!!!!! another engineer!!!! My husband is an Industrial Engineer...Dave, what kind are you??? just curious here in calif

>From: "Bridget"

>Reply- > >Subject: Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD >Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:04:49 -0000 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Originating-IP: 68.72.219.146 >X-Sender: rumplegroups@... >Received: from n30.grp.scd. ([66.218.66.87]) by mc1-f42.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:06:10 -0800 >Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n30.grp.scd. with NNFMP; 23 Feb 2004 21:05:52 -0000 >Received: (qmail 52488 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2004 21:05:50 -0000 >Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd. with QMQP; 23 Feb 2004 21:05:50 -0000 >Received: from unknown (HELO n32.grp.scd.) (66.218.66.100) by mta1.grp.scd. with SMTP; 23 Feb 2004 21:05:50 -0000 >Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n32.grp.scd. with NNFMP; 23 Feb 2004 21:04:51 -0000 >X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGlgAO5oIle2lbq5tvH89WM >X-eGroups-Return: sentto-1018255-10196-1077570351-her_timid_heart=hotmail.com@... >X-Apparently- >Message-ID:

>In-Reply-

>User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 >X-Mailer: Message Poster >X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.100 >X--Profile: rumpleteasermom >Mailing-List: list ; contact -owner >Delivered-mailing list >Precedence: bulk >List-Unsubscribe:

>Return-Path: sentto-1018255-10196-1077570351-her_timid_heart=hotmail.com@... >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Feb 2004 21:06:10.0385 (UTC) FILETIME=[DCB78C10:01C3FA50] > > >Given that my husband is a broadcast engineer, I think he knows his >magnets. > >Bridget > > > > > > > > > > > > > Still for anyone interested, the strongest magnets I know of >come > > >out of > > > > computer hard drives. If you ever have a disk crash, crack open >the > > >old > > > > drive and find two small, powerful magnets in the vicinity of >the > > >head > > > > armature. Amazing little buggers! WARNING -- you can get a bad > > >pinch if you > > > > put them together near a fingertip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! > > http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ > Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from!

[Guest guest]

I think you are misreading this: " Improper magnet placement may

hinder reed switch closure and could lead to undesired delivered

therapy. "

It won't CAUSE zaps. It just won't stop them when you want it to.

As for Sharon's experience, I was talking to my husband about it. We

think (mind you this is educated guess work at this point) that when

the lead breaks, the unit sees the higher level of resistance and

increases the volatage to deliver the 'right' level of joules. A

magnet definitely won't do that.

Bridget

> Hello everyone:

> I don't know if you read this article about the magnet being put on

the ICD to stop therapy while the pacing still goes on. In the

article it says, improper placement of the Magnet could lead to

undesired therapy, so for the ones that will do this make sure you

get your doctor show it to you and choose your magnet otherwise while

you are getting shock needlessly(like it happened to Sharon) and

constantly you can actually increase the frequency of the therapy or

how many shock you will receive per whatever seconds. I will not

comment on my opinion on this until I ask him March 2nd when my appt

is. Although I believe there is a need for a back up system to stop

unnecessary therapy until the pros arrive. Because I don't want what

happened to Sharon (sorry honey) happen to me. Good Luck. TURK

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bridget. You learn something new everyday. I thought that it would cause a shock. Thanks. TURK

Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

I think you are misreading this: "Improper magnet placement may hinder reed switch closure and could lead to undesired delivered therapy."It won't CAUSE zaps. It just won't stop them when you want it to.As for Sharon's experience, I was talking to my husband about it. We think (mind you this is educated guess work at this point) that when the lead breaks, the unit sees the higher level of resistance and increases the volatage to deliver the 'right' level of joules. A magnet definitely won't do that.Bridget> Hello everyone:> I don't know if you read this article about the magnet being put on the ICD to stop therapy while the pacing still goes on. In the article it says, improper placement of the Magnet could lead to undesired therapy, so for the ones that will do this make sure you get your doctor show it to you and choose your magnet otherwise while you are getting shock needlessly(like it happened to Sharon) and constantly you can actually increase the frequency of the therapy or how many shock you will receive per whatever seconds. I will not comment on my opinion on this until I ask him March 2nd when my appt is. Although I believe there is a need for a back up system to stop unnecessary therapy until the pros arrive. Because I don't want what happened to Sharon (sorry honey) happen to me. Good Luck. TURKPlease visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org