Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

February 21, 2004

I suppose it might come in handy as in the case of repeated, incessant

shocks that don't stop as have been described by some as lead failure.

However.....!!!!

I have a Guidant Ventak Prism II device. Recently I cut a tendon in my wrist

due to an accident, so I needed surgery to repair it. My local hospital

didn't have any direct expertise in that model and were planning to use a

magnet to shut it off for the electro-cautery. Dr. Estes was emphatic about

that being inappropriate for my device. He wanted a Guidant rep to come and

shut it off. His concern was that it wouldn't restart properly after the

magnet was removed.

They ended up settling on using a hand-held battery device for the cautery

instead of 'BOVIE'. So the ICD was still on for the procedure -- no problem.

I know that the manual for the device shows a 'magnet mode' being able to be

enabled or disabled.

I have a feeling that there's more going on than just, " put a magnet there

to disable the device " .

Still for anyone interested, the strongest magnets I know of come out of

computer hard drives. If you ever have a disk crash, crack open the old

drive and find two small, powerful magnets in the vicinity of the head

armature. Amazing little buggers! WARNING -- you can get a bad pinch if you

put them together near a fingertip.

>From: " Red " <bobcat256@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: Abdominal implanted ICD's and lead problems.

>Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:12:41 -0500

>

>Thanks for you response Jack,

>I must tell you I have the utmost respect for anyone who has had to endure

>inappropriate repeated shocks.

>Just yesterday I told my wife I want to get a strong magnet to have around

>in case this scary situation arises.

>She was not very receptive to the idea, (I am sure neither would my

>Doctor's) but I know when I am having a heart episode and if I can feel a

>pulse then I know I am not in V-tach. For me it seems like a prudent move.

>I had my wisdom teeth removed in the local hospital a few months back and

>that is exactly what they did during the surgery to deactivate my device

>temporarily.

>

>Good health,

>

>Dave

>

> Abdominal implanted ICD's and lead problems.

>

> Hello Group,

> I was wondering if anyone in the group still has an abdominal ICD

>implanted besides myself?

> Also, anyone who used to have an abdominal implant and now has a chest

>implanted device please give me there opinion on the experience. I have

>talked with a couple of people who say the new chest devices although there

>now quite small, they are more uncomfortable in the chest area.

> My fist device was huge, the size of 2 cigarette packs and weighed a

>pound, my second device was half the size only 3 years later. My current

>device (Implanted 2 years ago) is the size of a pager but a little thinner.

> Apparently the main advantage to the chest implants are it requires

>only one operation and a much reduced risk (So the doctors tell me) of lead

>problems.

> Many people have had lead failures with the abdominal implants that

>were either discovered at an EP interrogation or received inappropriate

>repeated shocks out of the blue.

>

> Thanks in advance,

>

> Dave

>

> Please visit the Zapper homepage at

> http://www.ZapLife.org

>

> Please visit the Zapper homepage at

> http://www.ZapLife.org

>

February 21, 2004

Ken

I too have a Guidant Ventak. Just before Christmas, we were in Harbor

Freight and my wife said " Ralph you ought to see this. " and as I

turned she placed a 50 pound magnet against my implant. She claims

not intentially.

We called guidant and they told us that if it were just momentary

(as it was) no harm was done, but the rep was really curious as to how

I had had a 50 pound magnet on my implant. Still I think Id feel

better if a rep turned it off.

Ralph

February 21, 2004

Speaker magnets are stronger.

Bridget

>

> Still for anyone interested, the strongest magnets I know of come

out of

> computer hard drives. If you ever have a disk crash, crack open the

old

> drive and find two small, powerful magnets in the vicinity of the

head

> armature. Amazing little buggers! WARNING -- you can get a bad

pinch if you

> put them together near a fingertip.

February 22, 2004

JUST TRY TO PRY ONE OFF YOUR REFRIGERATOR !!!! :-D

------- HANK

Ken McCormick wrote:

I suppose it might come in handy as in the case of repeated, incessant shocks that don't stop as have been described by some as lead failure.

However.....!!!!

I have a Guidant Ventak Prism II device. Recently I cut a tendon in my wrist due to an accident, so I needed surgery to repair it. My local hospital didn't have any direct expertise in that model and were planning to use a magnet to shut it off for the electro-cautery. Dr. Estes was emphatic about that being inappropriate for my device. He wanted a Guidant rep to come and shut it off. His concern was that it wouldn't restart properly after the magnet was removed.

They ended up settling on using a hand-held battery device for the cautery instead of 'BOVIE'. So the ICD was still on for the procedure -- no problem.

I know that the manual for the device shows a 'magnet mode' being able to be enabled or disabled.

I have a feeling that there's more going on than just, "put a magnet there to disable the device".

Still for anyone interested, the strongest magnets I know of come out of computer hard drives. If you ever have a disk crash, crack open the old drive and find two small, powerful magnets in the vicinity of the head armature. Amazing little buggers! WARNING -- you can get a bad pinch if you put them together near a fingertip.

From: "Red" <bobcat256@...>

Reply-

< >

Subject: Re: Abdominal implanted ICD's and lead problems.

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:12:41 -0500

Thanks for you response Jack,

I must tell you I have the utmost respect for anyone who has had to endure inappropriate repeated shocks.

Just yesterday I told my wife I want to get a strong magnet to have around in case this scary situation arises.

She was not very receptive to the idea, (I am sure neither would my Doctor's) but I know when I am having a heart episode and if I can feel a pulse then I know I am not in V-tach. For me it seems like a prudent move. I had my wisdom teeth removed in the local hospital a few months back and that is exactly what they did during the surgery to deactivate my device temporarily.

Good health,

Dave

Abdominal implanted ICD's and lead problems.

Hello Group,

I was wondering if anyone in the group still has an abdominal ICD implanted besides myself?

Also, anyone who used to have an abdominal implant and now has a chest implanted device please give me there opinion on the experience. I have talked with a couple of people who say the new chest devices although there now quite small, they are more uncomfortable in the chest area.

My fist device was huge, the size of 2 cigarette packs and weighed a pound, my second device was half the size only 3 years later. My current device (Implanted 2 years ago) is the size of a pager but a little thinner.

Apparently the main advantage to the chest implants are it requires only one operation and a much reduced risk (So the doctors tell me) of lead problems.

Many people have had lead failures with the abdominal implants that were either discovered at an EP interrogation or received inappropriate repeated shocks out of the blue.

Thanks in advance,

Dave

Please visit the Zapper homepage at

http://www.ZapLife.org

Please visit the Zapper homepage at

http://www.ZapLife.org

February 22, 2004

I would like to find out what everybody's device is. You can privately email me if you would like. I am doing a research. If anybody is curious I have Guidant Ventak Prizm II. TURK

Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

KenI too have a Guidant Ventak. Just before Christmas, we were in HarborFreight and my wife said "Ralph you ought to see this." and as Iturned she placed a 50 pound magnet against my implant. She claimsnot intentially. We called guidant and they told us that if it were just momentary(as it was) no harm was done, but the rep was really curious as to howI had had a 50 pound magnet on my implant. Still I think Id feelbetter if a rep turned it off.RalphPlease visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

February 22, 2004

Hey Gang:

You're making me a little bit nervous out here with

all the talk about using a magnet to turn off your own

ICD. You'd best know if you're pacemaker dependent

before considering that....if you're truly dependent,

then no AICD means your heart stops and you are in

deep (ahem, trouble). Just a word of caution that

do-it-yourself therapy can sometimes be chancey. PatP

February 22, 2004

Hi Turk,

I have the same one you do.

Bridget

> I would like to find out what everybody's device is. You can

privately email me if you would like. I am doing a research. If

anybody is curious I have Guidant Ventak Prizm II. TURK

> Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

>

> Ken

> I too have a Guidant Ventak. Just before Christmas, we were in

Harbor

> Freight and my wife said " Ralph you ought to see this. " and as I

> turned she placed a 50 pound magnet against my implant. She

claims

> not intentially.

> We called guidant and they told us that if it were just

momentary

> (as it was) no harm was done, but the rep was really curious as

to how

> I had had a 50 pound magnet on my implant. Still I think Id feel

> better if a rep turned it off.

> Ralph

>

> Please visit the Zapper homepage at

> http://www.ZapLife.org

>

February 22, 2004

True Pat. And while my device tech tells me it is very rare, the

possibility of multiple inappropriate shocks is in many of our minds

most of the time. How many of the ~300 of us in this group have had

an episode like that? 1% 2%? It's rare, but it happens. Knowing

how to make it stop is important to me and I'm sure it is to others.

I was way out in the country yesterday, an hour from the nearest

hospital. I really wouldn't want to spend that hour getting zapped

every minute or so.

Bridget

> Hey Gang:

>

> You're making me a little bit nervous out here with

> all the talk about using a magnet to turn off your own

> ICD. You'd best know if you're pacemaker dependent

> before considering that....if you're truly dependent,

> then no AICD means your heart stops and you are in

> deep (ahem, trouble). Just a word of caution that

> do-it-yourself therapy can sometimes be chancey. PatP

February 22, 2004

I was under the impression that placing a magnet over the ICD only turned off the tachy therapy portion - the pacing would still be active. This was the case on my St. Jude and my new Medtronic.

I do this myself. In skydiving there is always a chance that a hard opening could rip my arm in such a way that something could get broken (ICD wise), so I keep a large magnet at the desk in the event that a lead is broken. Should be interesting trying to steer a parachute though... hopefully I'll never have to try it.

"Got Siamese" www.siameserescue.org

Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

Hey Gang: You're making me a little bit nervous out here withall the talk about using a magnet to turn off your ownICD. You'd best know if you're pacemaker dependentbefore considering that....if you're truly dependent,then no AICD means your heart stops and you are indeep (ahem, trouble). Just a word of caution thatdo-it-yourself therapy can sometimes be chancey. PatP Please visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

February 22, 2004

Turk .....

> I would like to find out what everybody's device is. You can privately

> email me if you would like. I am doing a research. If anybody is curious

> I have Guidant Ventak Prizm II.

Rich's is a Medtronic GEM DR 7271.

Sue

--

" She was not quite what you would call refined.

She was not quite what you would call unrefined.

She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot. "

-- Mark Twain

Rich and Sue Owens

Our Birds: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/7457/index3.html

Science: http://www.nothnbut.net/~reo77/aurora.html

Us: http://www.nothnbut.net/~reo77/family.html

February 22, 2004

Turk .....> I would like to find out what everybody's device is. You can privately > email me if you would like. I am doing a research. If anybody is curious > I have Guidant Ventak Prizm II. Rich's is a Medtronic GEM DR 7271. Sue

Guin's is the same as Rich's, Implanted 9/99, and again 3/00.

February 22, 2004

Hi ,I agree with 99% of what Bridget said in regard to having a magnet to turn of your ICD. But unfortunately the percentage of lead failure among recipients who have a subclavian route of insertion of leads with an abdominal placed device (Per a trial performed on 539 patients between June 1993 and April 1997, see below) showed a percentage of 14% had lead failure. (Not just 1 or 2%) One can only assume that that percentage must go up dramatically the longer the person has these lead wires installed. (It is now 7 years after that 4 year trial was performed) So if I said (Conservatively speaking) approximately 1 out of 5 persons (20%) who still have this type of lead system installed for abdominally implanted ICDs will have a lead malfunction, I feel I am not overstating the risk factor .

I think I am understating it, as sooner or later (Hopefully later) all will eventually need to be replaced. As to how many lead problems are found at the EP clinic vs. inappropriate shocks is unclear.

Not wanting to scare anyone here and this only pertains to the minority of us who have had these abdominal leads in us for a long time. (Me, just over a decade) So for me, (Not everyone) I think having a magnet around is a prudent idea.

I included the first paragraph of the study I am referring to below, also the link to the entire study as well.

Please if anyone finds my reasoning or my interpretation of this study to be lacking, I would appreciate your thoughts on this issue.

Thanks everyone,

Dave

, "Bridget" <rumplegroups@s...> wrote:> > True Pat. And while my device tech tells me it is very rare, the > possibility of multiple inappropriate shocks is in many of our minds > most of the time. How many of the ~300 of us in this group have had > an episode like that? 1% 2%? It's rare, but it happens. Knowing > how to make it stop is important to me and I'm sure it is to others. > I was way out in the country yesterday, an hour from the nearest > hospital. I really wouldn't want to spend that hour getting zapped > every minute or so.> > Bridget> > > >

Lead- and Device-related Complications in the Antiarrhythmics Versus Implantable Defibrillators Trial

Jack Kron, MD,a Herre, MD,b Ellen Graham Renfroe, BSN,c Rizo-Patron, MD,d Merritt Raitt, MD,a Blair Halperin, MD,a Gold, MD,e Bruce Goldner, MD,f Mark Wathen, MD,g Bruce Wilkoff, MD,H Olarte, MS,c Qing Yao, PhD,c and the AVID Investigators , Portland, Ore, Norfolk, Va, Seattle, Wash, Lubbock, Tex, College Park, Md, New York, NY, Nashville, Tenn, and Cleveland, Ohio Am Heart J 141(1):92-98, 2001. © 2001 Mosby-Year Book, Inc

Abstract and Introduction

AbstractBackground Implantation of transvenous implantable cardioverter defibrillators (ICDs) by use of a nonthoracotomy approach has become routine therapy for survivors of life-threatening tachyarrhythmias. The purpose of this study was to identify and prospectively characterize the frequency of lead- and ICD-related complications from the Antiarrhythmics versus Implantable Defibrillators (AVID) Trial.Methods and Results Between June 1, 1993, and April 7, 1997, 539 patients received nonthoracotomy ICDs either as initial treatment assignment (477) or as crossover from medical management (62). A total of 62 first complications occurred. The subclavian route of insertion resulted in more complications than the cephalic vein route, 46 of 339 (14%) versus 6 of 135 (4%), P = .005, as did the abdominal versus pectoral generator site, 31 of 238 (13%) versus 17 of 291 (6%), P < .02. Most dislodgements and system infections tended to occur in the 3 months after implantation, whereas lead fractures continued to occur throughout follow-up. Failure to use preoperative antibiotics was a predictor of system infection (P =.001).Conclusions These data suggest that cephalic vein access and pectoral generator site may result in fewer complications. The continued occurrence of lead fractures and the need for premature system revision supports the practice of close routine ICD system surveillance.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/409208

February 22, 2004

It would be interesting if you would share your results with the

group. Mine is a Medtronic Gem II. For one week yet. After

watching the battery level slowly lower, then plateau for about 9

months (I was lulled into thinking it would plateau forever, ha!) I

reached 2.55 and am scheduled for a replacement on March 1.

>

> Turk .....

> > I would like to find out what everybody's device is. You can

privately

> > email me if you would like. I am doing a research. If anybody is

curious

> > I have Guidant Ventak Prizm II.

>

> Rich's is a Medtronic GEM DR 7271.

> Sue

>

> Guin's is the same as Rich's, Implanted 9/99, and again 3/00.

February 23, 2004

Thank you Pat... you stated what I'm thinking... doesn't this sorta

remind you of the lawyer who represents himself in court? ... not

calling anyone here a fool mind you, but as much as I believe in

being our own advocate and participating in our care as much as

possible, IMHO, this goes over the edge

JES in 'Jersey

> Hey Gang:

>

> You're making me a little bit nervous out here with

> all the talk about using a magnet to turn off your own

> ICD. You'd best know if you're pacemaker dependent

> before considering that....if you're truly dependent,

> then no AICD means your heart stops and you are in

> deep (ahem, trouble). Just a word of caution that

> do-it-yourself therapy can sometimes be chancey. PatP

February 23, 2004

Yes, I agree with you both. I am not sure if you are being zapped - if you have the whits about you to make such decisions... Seems you would be in state ofmind where you would want the zaps to stop, but they may be appropriate - then you would be disabling you saving device!?

~guin

Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

Thank you Pat... you stated what I'm thinking... doesn't this sorta remind you of the lawyer who represents himself in court? ... not calling anyone here a fool mind you, but as much as I believe in being our own advocate and participating in our care as much as possible, IMHO, this goes over the edge :(JES in 'Jersey > Hey Gang: > > You're making me a little bit nervous out here with> all the talk about using a magnet to turn off your own> ICD. You'd best know if you're pacemaker dependent> before considering that....if you're truly dependent,> then no AICD means your heart stops and you are in> deep (ahem, trouble). Just a word of caution that> do-it-yourself therapy can sometimes be chancey. PatPPlease visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

February 23, 2004

Anyone thinking about using a magnet in order to stop repeated unnecessary

shocks should talk it over with their doctor. I did.

P.S. When I was in the hospital after my shocking episode, my EP doctor gave

me a magnet to take home.

Jack

Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

> Thank you Pat... you stated what I'm thinking... doesn't this sorta

> remind you of the lawyer who represents himself in court? ... not

> calling anyone here a fool mind you, but as much as I believe in

> being our own advocate and participating in our care as much as

> possible, IMHO, this goes over the edge

> JES in 'Jersey

>

> > Hey Gang:

> >

> > You're making me a little bit nervous out here with

> > all the talk about using a magnet to turn off your own

> > ICD. You'd best know if you're pacemaker dependent

> > before considering that....if you're truly dependent,

> > then no AICD means your heart stops and you are in

> > deep (ahem, trouble). Just a word of caution that

> > do-it-yourself therapy can sometimes be chancey. PatP

>

> Please visit the Zapper homepage at

> http://www.ZapLife.org

>

February 23, 2004

Hi Jess,

I would rather shut down my device (This is only for me and my condition, not anyone else) if I was being shocked inappropriately.

With my condition, I know when and if I am having a problem. Often times if I go into VT and immediately sit down, take in real deep breaths and cough from the diaphragm, the VT will often time convert back to a normal heart rhythm with no zap. In ten years of having my device interrogated, there was only one occasion I did not realize I was in VT and converted back to normal and that is because I was asleep.

If I was getting a inappropriate shock a minute for an extended period of time, (When I get shocked it hurts like hell) I would prefer to use a magnet on myself, as opposed to getting my hand gun and put myself out of my misery. (And that is exactly what I would do if I could not get immediate help) I just can not imagine the pain, suffering and permanent physiological trauma some here have endured through repeated zaps.

I very much so respect yours and Pat's very valid opinions a lot and thank you for sharing it with the group. (Honestly)

I do not recommend anyone shutting off there ICD.

In my user manual it very clearly states how to shut of the device with a magnet. I am sure their is a logical reason the manufacturer of my device tells the patient how to turn it of the ICD if needed.

For the sake of discussion, If indeed I was mistaken and I really was having a heart problem, the second the magnet is removed my device works like it is intended.

I will repeat that I am not recommending this to anyone. I have learned a lot about my particular condition over the years and for me this makes perfect sense.

I hope you do not misunderstand this letter, as I completely understand your very valid point.

I pray to God this never happens to you my friend or anyone else here.

I for one do not wish to "Walk a mile" in anyone's shoes who have had to endure this type of terrifying and horrible ordeal. I want to learn from their experiences and hopefully avoid this happening to me.

I am not a fool by any means, I am an electrical/Mechanical Engineer who has researched my condition and device extensively.

And this is just one persons opinion, mine.

All my best to you Jess and everyone who reads this, God bless and good health,

Dave

Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD

Thank you Pat... you stated what I'm thinking... doesn't this sorta remind you of the lawyer who represents himself in court? ... not calling anyone here a fool mind you, but as much as I believe in being our own advocate and participating in our care as much as possible, IMHO, this goes over the edge :(JES in 'Jersey > Hey Gang: > > You're making me a little bit nervous out here with> all the talk about using a magnet to turn off your own> ICD. You'd best know if you're pacemaker dependent> before considering that....if you're truly dependent,> then no AICD means your heart stops and you are in> deep (ahem, trouble). Just a word of caution that> do-it-yourself therapy can sometimes be chancey. PatPPlease visit the Zapper homepage athttp://www.ZapLife.org

February 23, 2004

Jack, I agree, that is good advise.

I will ask my Docter about the magnet before I get one.

Thanks,

Dave

Re: Having a magnet to turn off your own ICD> Thank you Pat... you stated what I'm thinking... doesn't this sorta> remind you of the lawyer who represents himself in court? ... not> calling anyone here a fool mind you, but as much as I believe in> being our own advocate and participating in our care as much as> possible, IMHO, this goes over the edge > JES in 'Jersey >> > > Hey Gang:> >> > You're making me a little bit nervous out here with> > all the talk about using a magnet to turn off your own> > ICD. You'd best know if you're pacemaker dependent> > before considering that....if you're truly dependent,> > then no AICD means your heart stops and you are in> > deep (ahem, trouble). Just a word of caution that> > do-it-yourself therapy can sometimes be chancey. PatP>>>>> Please visit the Zapper homepage at> http://www.ZapLife.org>

February 23, 2004

Dear Dave, In my present state of mine I have only been paying half attention to the point of your comments. You made stop look and read.

When my first Icd malfunctioned after being installed for 13 months it fired 64 times in four hours. I just checked my paper work to make sure. No one can imagine what an experience like that was not only for me who was the shit zapped out of them but for my children and my husband. My son who is was with me during all this is now 33 and the Father of 2 children and whenever I have a problem with my icd he says Mom I remember the night. I will n ever forget the site of you get shocked over and over and there was nothing anyone could do.

I am not sure I have ever explained to any of you what happened to my brain let alone all my bodily functions. I lived I survived but God the anguish and the fear. When they went into fix it there was so much damage that they just clipped the wires and removed the box. My body would not except another device. I remember waking up with Dr, Morant sitting at the foot of my bed shaking his head saying we put that in you to keep you from dying and it almost killed you. Your body is to weak and everything is so out of whack that awe can't even put in another device at this time so you will be in here for a while hooked to machines and when we send you home you will be hooked to a device that will go directly into our lab 24-7. You will have to wear a monitor and be checked every 2 days.

I remember very little of that period anymore but I do remember the panic attacks and the fear that ever time I saw lightening that I would get shocked again. I finally decided that I had enough I disconnected all the things and hid literally hid from ever doctor you could imagine I ignored their letters and their phone calls. That is until I was found unresponsive passed out on my family room floor in 1999 on July16, less than a month before my only daughters wedding and a day before her bridal shower,

Each icd I have had since then have all had problems with leads. I have leads that are still embedded from my very first icd which they could never get out they sorta fused in there.

I know that I need to have a icd and I am glad that I have it know but the hell has sometimes put myself and my family under terrible stress. I am not a whimp, and I am a fighter but there have been many days that I have wanted to throw in the towel.

I have had several different model both Medtronic and Guidant, they both break! When the last one broke in had been implanted for over 3 years and it was the lead wires.

Having a magnet would give me peace of mind and help to control the panic attacks and maybe I could be somewhat normal again. I don't fear it firing because it has to as the shock while severe is livable. But when it start firing from a broken lead or other malfunction the pain is almost unbearable. Last time it started going wacko my husband who is 6'4" medium build was trying to comfort me and he put his arm around me and when it zapped it knocked him backwards and he just sat there saying damm I had no idea it felt like that.

I go for surgery tomorrow on my icd again as it has now dislodged itself from the pouch and is turning about on its free will hope I make it without any unnecessary shocks.

I plan to ask my doctor for a magnet and be shown the correct way to use it in case it ever breaks again.

Sharon

February 23, 2004