Re: The Educational Manual

[Guest guest]

Hi Willard,

It would appear that those around the table did not consider this a restrictive list. Perhaps adding the word 'physical' to the title would make it more cogent for your concerns. Sunny Kierstyn

Sunny Kierstyn

The Educational Manual

Dear Dr. Krystin:You stated that "The Educational Manual is something that our DC populationwill be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually goingon out there in literature and consensus."If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's sectionon page "ix" titled "Treatment procedures utilized by chiropractors" makesmost of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folksfind consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when ourlaws allow us a such a broad scope?Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,Willard Bertrand

[Guest guest]

Hi Sunny:

I think that

the committee must consider including references to the Oregon statutes and

other chiropractic references that would emphasize the importance of chiropractic

evaluation and management of nonspinal systems (e.g. respiratory, reproductive,

etc) in the correction and prevention of subluxation. This whole section, while

addressing the vitalistic nature of chiropractic art, science, and philosophy,

does poor justice to the actual scope of chiropractic as it has been practiced

in Oregon since D.D. Palmer started practice here.

If it were

the committee’s intention to narrow the scope of practice, which I sincerely

doubt this was their intention, this document would serve the purpose

perfectly. It undermines our broad-scope state law by completely ignoring it.

Furthermore, if an adversary of our broad scope were to look at a place to apply

optimum leverage to restrict our broad scope procedures, this new OBCE

sanctioned Educational Manual would be the most logical place to set the

fulcrum.

Sincerely,

Willard

Bertrand

-----Original

Message-----

From: Sunny Kierstyn

[mailto:skrndc1@...]

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003

11:19 AM

Oregon DC List; Dr. Willard

Bertrand, D.C.

Subject: Re: The

Educational Manual

Hi

Willard,

It

would appear that those around the table did not consider this a restrictive

list. Perhaps adding the word 'physical' to the title would make it more

cogent for your concerns. Sunny Kierstyn

Sunny

Kierstyn

-----

Original Message -----

From: Dr. Willard

Bertrand, D.C.

Oregon

DC List

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003

11:03 AM

Subject:

The Educational Manual

Dear

Dr. Krystin:

You stated that " The Educational Manual is something that our DC

population

will be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually going

on out there in literature and consensus. "

If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's section

on page " ix " titled " Treatment procedures utilized by

chiropractors " makes

most of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folks

find consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when our

laws allow us a such a broad scope?

Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,

Willard Bertrand

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry, Willard, that you feel that way. Multiple philosophies and mentalities about chiropractic were represented at the table and the chapter took a good length of time to evolve. It is only one of many chapters to discuss chiropractic and much of what you express will be included in those other chapters. Disdain about inadequacy was one of the difficulties we faced when the decision was made to distribute the incomplete portion.

The references for the for the Oregon statutes and (literally) thousands of other chiropractic references are included. Please take time to note them.

At this point, it seems that, no matter what we do or did, you would/will disapprove. It's unfortunate for all of us that your voice was not present when the thinking about this was in action. Not only were your thoughts not added to the mix, you weren't there to hear why, according to the consensus around the table, our phrases and paragraphs were constructed the way they were.

Sunny Kierstyn

The Educational ManualDear Dr. Krystin:You stated that "The Educational Manual is something that our DC populationwill be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually goingon out there in literature and consensus."If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's sectionon page "ix" titled "Treatment procedures utilized by chiropractors" makesmost of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folksfind consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when ourlaws allow us a such a broad scope?Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,Willard Bertrand

[Guest guest]

Dear

Sunny:

I am now

requesting a copy from the OBCE of the entire minutes of the meetings. I will

be full of suspense until I read the reasons why we have eviscerated this

profession’s wide scope. Whatever the logic found in the minutes, it will never

suffice to justify the Education Manual’s total disregard for the wide scope of

practice of chiropractic in Oregon.

This

document is unacceptable and it will not go politically unscathed into the laws

without extensive revision. Please accept my apologies, as I never dreamed that

such a misdirection of thought was possible via the OBCE. Now I am certainly

going to be present, and deeply involved, to the bitter end.

Hello.

Willard

Bertrand D.C.

-----Original

Message-----

From: Sunny Kierstyn

[mailto:skrndc1@...]

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:07

PM

Oregon DC List; Dr. Willard

Bertrand, D.C.

Subject: Re: The

Educational Manual

I'm

sorry, Willard, that you feel that way. Multiple philosophies and

mentalities about chiropractic were represented at the table and the chapter

took a good length of time to evolve. It is only one of many chapters to

discuss chiropractic and much of what you express will be included in those

other chapters. Disdain about inadequacy was one of the

difficulties we faced when the decision was made to distribute the incomplete

portion.

The

references for the for the Oregon statutes and (literally) thousands of other

chiropractic references are included. Please take time to note

them.

At

this point, it seems that, no matter what we do or did, you would/will

disapprove. It's unfortunate for all of us that your voice was not

present when the thinking about this was in action. Not only were

your thoughts not added to the mix, you weren't there to hear why,

according to the consensus around the table, our phrases and paragraphs

were constructed the way they were.

Sunny

Kierstyn

-----

Original Message -----

From: Dr. Willard

Bertrand, D.C.

Oregon

DC List

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003

12:40 PM

Subject: RE:

The Educational Manual

Hi

Sunny:

I think that the committee must consider including references to the Oregon

statutes and other chiropractic references that would emphasize the

importance of chiropractic evaluation and management of nonspinal systems

(e.g. respiratory, reproductive, etc) in the correction and prevention of

subluxation. This whole section, while addressing the vitalistic nature of

chiropractic art, science, and philosophy, does poor justice to the actual

scope of chiropractic as it has been practiced in Oregon since D.D. Palmer

started practice here.

If it were the committee's intention to narrow the scope of practice, which

I sincerely doubt this was their intention, this document would serve the

purpose perfectly. It undermines our broad-scope state law by completely

ignoring it. Furthermore, if an adversary of our broad scope were to look at

a place to apply optimum leverage to restrict our broad scope procedures,

this new OBCE sanctioned Educational Manual would be the most logical place

to set the fulcrum.

Sincerely,

Willard Bertrand

Re: The Educational Manual

Hi Willard,

It would appear that those around the table did not consider this a

restrictive list. Perhaps adding the word 'physical' to the title would

make it more cogent for your concerns. Sunny Kierstyn

Sunny Kierstyn

The Educational Manual

Dear Dr. Krystin:

You stated that " The Educational Manual is something that our DC population

will be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually going

on out there in literature and consensus. "

If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's section

on page " ix " titled " Treatment procedures utilized by

chiropractors " makes

most of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folks

find consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when our

laws allow us a such a broad scope?

Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,

Willard Bertrand

[Guest guest]

I agree with Dr. Bertrand. The forward reads as if "chiropractic health care " is limited to treating spinal subluxations only and by spinal adjustments and or manual therapy procedures only.--- Original Message -----

From: Dr. Willard Bertrand, D.C.

Oregon DC List

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:40 PM

Subject: RE: The Educational Manual

Hi Sunny:

I think that the committee must consider including references to the Oregon statutes and other chiropractic references that would emphasize the importance of chiropractic evaluation and management of nonspinal systems (e.g. respiratory, reproductive, etc) in the correction and prevention of subluxation. This whole section, while addressing the vitalistic nature of chiropractic art, science, and philosophy, does poor justice to the actual scope of chiropractic as it has been practiced in Oregon since D.D. Palmer started practice here.

If it were the committee’s intention to narrow the scope of practice, which I sincerely doubt this was their intention, this document would serve the purpose perfectly. It undermines our broad-scope state law by completely ignoring it. Furthermore, if an adversary of our broad scope were to look at a place to apply optimum leverage to restrict our broad scope procedures, this new OBCE sanctioned Educational Manual would be the most logical place to set the fulcrum.

Sincerely,

Willard Bertrand

Re: The Educational Manual

Hi Willard,

It would appear that those around the table did not consider this a restrictive list. Perhaps adding the word 'physical' to the title would make it more cogent for your concerns. Sunny Kierstyn

Sunny Kierstyn

The Educational Manual

Dear Dr. Krystin:You stated that "The Educational Manual is something that our DC populationwill be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually goingon out there in literature and consensus."If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's sectionon page "ix" titled "Treatment procedures utilized by chiropractors" makesmost of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folksfind consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when ourlaws allow us a such a broad scope?Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,Willard BertrandOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Willard,

Don't forget in this debate that Oregon Statute takes precedence over guidelines. The guidelines were never meant to copy statute verbatim. In fact, many of our panel debates involved what should or should not be included in the guidelines due to stated fact in statute.

J. Holzapfel, D.C.Albany, OR.kjholzdc@...http://docman.chiroweb.com

On Wed, 21 May 2003 11:03:36 -0700 "Dr. Willard Bertrand, D.C." <mail@...> writes:

Dear Dr. Krystin:

You stated that “The Educational Manual is something that our DC population will be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually going on out there in literature and consensus.”

If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual’s section on page “ix” titled “Treatment procedures utilized by chiropractors” makes most of Oregon’s statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folks find consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when our laws allow us a such a broad scope?

Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,

Willard Bertrand OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Hi Willard,

It will be a pleasure to have you amongst us.

Hopefully as you join us, it will be with recognition of what it takes to gather all of us on any given day (meaning the sacrifices that each of us has made in order to participate) … with the understanding that this is a living document with changes possible (according to consensus) …with the understanding that all of us are content-experts and not the dumb jokers your current righteousness implies … that it takes all of us for consensus and you will be only one, as each of us is only one … that this is not a book of laws but suggestions and definitions (using available literature and current statutes for referencing) … and that we are, as a group, working to do the very best we can for ourselves.

Working from a positive and promotional point of view allows all of us to thrive.

And the next Nominal Panel meeting will probably not be working on the material you would like to have re-worked.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn

The Educational ManualDear Dr. Krystin:You stated that "The Educational Manual is something that our DC populationwill be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually goingon out there in literature and consensus."If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's sectionon page "ix" titled "Treatment procedures utilized by chiropractors" makesmost of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folksfind consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when ourlaws allow us a such a broad scope?Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,Willard Bertrand

[Guest guest]

Thanks

,

There’s a

bit of sunshine behind every dark cloud.

Willard Bertrand

-----Original

Message-----

From: J Holzapfel DC

[mailto:kjholzdc@...]

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:23

PM

mail@...

Cc:

Subject: Re: The

Educational Manual

Willard,

Don't forget

in this debate that Oregon Statute takes precedence over guidelines. The

guidelines were never meant to copy statute verbatim. In fact, many of

our panel debates involved what should or should not be included in the

guidelines due to stated fact in statute.

J. Holzapfel, D.C.

Albany, OR.

kjholzdc@...

http://docman.chiroweb.com

On Wed, 21

May 2003 11:03:36 -0700 " Dr. Willard Bertrand, D.C. " <mail@...> writes:

Dear Dr. Krystin:

You stated that “The Educational Manual is something that our DC

population will be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is

actually going on out there in literature and consensus.”

If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational

Manual’s section on page “ix” titled “Treatment procedures utilized by

chiropractors” makes most of Oregon’s statutes virtually out of our scope. Why

would you folks find consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment

procedures when our laws allow us a such a broad scope?

Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee

members,

Willard Bertrand

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members

will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,

it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise

distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent,

unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members

will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,

it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise

distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent,

unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sunny:

Believe

me, with the experience of hundreds of hours of meetings behind me, I realize

the dynamic of committee work. Look, already you are preparing to defend the

status quo. That’s what I hold in the highest regard about politics, it is so biased

towards those with the most time to waste. Still, the balance often tilts in

favor of those willing to risk the most disfavor. I guess that is where I’ll

come in.

Thanks for

your patience,

Willard

Bertrand

-----Original

Message-----

From: Sunny Kierstyn

[mailto:skrndc1@...]

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 3:26

PM

Oregon DC List; Dr. Willard

Bertrand, D.C.

Subject: Re: The

Educational Manual

Hi

Willard,

It

will be a pleasure to have you amongst us.

Hopefully

as you join us, it will be with recognition of what it takes to gather all of

us on any given day (meaning the sacrifices that each of us has made in order

to participate) … with the understanding that this is a living document

with changes possible (according to consensus) …with the understanding

that all of us are content-experts and not the dumb jokers your current

righteousness implies … that it takes all of us for consensus and you will be

only one, as each of us is only one … that this is not a book of laws but

suggestions and definitions (using available literature and current statutes

for referencing) … and that we are, as a group, working to do the very

best we can for ourselves.

Working

from a positive and promotional point of view allows all of us to

thrive.

And

the next Nominal Panel meeting will probably not be working on the material you

would like to have re-worked.

Sunny

Sunny

Kierstyn

-----

Original Message -----

From: Dr. Willard

Bertrand, D.C.

Sunny Kierstyn ; Oregon

DC List

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003

1:50 PM

Subject: RE:

The Educational Manual

Dear

Sunny:

I am now requesting a copy from the OBCE of the entire minutes of the

meetings. I will be full of suspense until I read the reasons why we have

eviscerated this profession's wide scope. Whatever the logic found in the

minutes, it will never suffice to justify the Education Manual's total

disregard for the wide scope of practice of chiropractic in Oregon.

This document is unacceptable and it will not go politically unscathed into

the laws without extensive revision. Please accept my apologies, as I never

dreamed that such a misdirection of thought was possible via the OBCE. Now I

am certainly going to be present, and deeply involved, to the bitter end.

Hello.

Willard Bertrand D.C.

Re: The Educational Manual

I'm sorry, Willard, that you feel that way. Multiple philosophies and

mentalities about chiropractic were represented at the table and the chapter

took a good length of time to evolve. It is only one of many chapters to

discuss chiropractic and much of what you express will be included in those

other chapters. Disdain about inadequacy was one of the difficulties

we

faced when the decision was made to distribute the incomplete portion.

The references for the for the Oregon statutes and (literally) thousands of

other chiropractic references are included. Please take time to

note them.

At this point, it seems that, no matter what we do or did, you would/will

disapprove. It's unfortunate for all of us that your voice was not

present

when the thinking about this was in action. Not only were your thoughts not

added to the mix, you weren't there to hear why, according to the consensus

around the table, our phrases and paragraphs were constructed the way they

were.

Sunny Kierstyn

The Educational Manual

Dear Dr. Krystin:

You stated that " The Educational Manual is something that our DC

population

will be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually going

on out there in literature and consensus. "

If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's section

on page " ix " titled " Treatment procedures utilized by

chiropractors " makes

most of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folks

find consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when our

laws allow us a such a broad scope?

Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,

Willard Bertrand

[Guest guest]

In this item of discusssion, and much that has preceeded it, it is all too clear, Willard, that you are interested but haven't done your homework. Willard, would you consider asking simple questions? Like "What does "insufficient evidence mean?" Your speculative tirade about what "insufficient evidence" means to the OBCE is just one example of someone who, although very intelligent and a good communicator, is leading a discussion but he didn't read the book before class! If you really want to know, just ask without blaming and name calling . I would be glad to explain as would the 6 other board members or OBCE staff. Call me at 541 482-2904 or at home 541 482-2295.

The same is true about ths Evidence Based Manual discussion. I'm suprised and pleased that Sunny, Jack and have had the patience to tolerate your name calling, insinuations and blaming in order to educate you. Bravo for professional comradery! Maybe, Willard, the invitation to join the effort wasn't just an invitation to become another one of the blind folk who are working on these projects, but really also trying to say that you'd get your homework done better some other way. Then, if you want to cotribute you will be able to see the ground we've already covered, the risks we know that we are taking and the potential benifits of those risks. To be fair, in among these discussions you've raised some important points, many of which are in the forgotten archives of discussions 5 years ago,and needed to be repeated. So thank you for that.

Sunny, even if you didn't mean this in your posts, I think you've been admirably patient.

The Educational ManualDear Dr. Krystin:You stated that "The Educational Manual is something that our DC populationwill be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually goingon out there in literature and consensus."If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's sectionon page "ix" titled "Treatment procedures utilized by chiropractors" makesmost of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folksfind consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when ourlaws allow us a such a broad scope?Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,Willard BertrandOregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

Thank you , your words are very comforting. And I have attempted to write in as diplomatic manner as I can. The wrangling stops with me. One last post from me is in construction and then I will be silent on the matter as the rhetoric has become disturbing. Sooooo much time has already been spent, at the table, on just exactly what is contained in these postings. None of this was created in a vacuum. And THAT is one of the biggest reasons the document has taken the years (!) it has and will.

Thanks again for your words and thoughts. You did a good job of bringing it full circle. Sunny

The Educational Manual Dear Dr. Krystin: You stated that "The Educational Manual is something that our DC population will be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually going on out there in literature and consensus." If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's section on page "ix" titled "Treatment procedures utilized by chiropractors" makes most of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folks find consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when our laws allow us a such a broad scope? Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members, Willard Bertrand

[Guest guest]

Dear :

Please do

not confuse content with intent.

I have

asked Dave McTeague for the minutes of the ED Man committee meetings. I will

read them when they arrive. I guess that when I look at your discussions on

paper, there will be elucidation of the work you folks have accomplished. As

far as the Ed Man. Itself, I have read it and you have seen my analysis, which

I believe, has yet to be addressed by any Ed Man supporter. Your critique has

been in the realm of discussing your impatience, incredulity, and personal

affront from the criticisms of the document. I assure you, there is nothing

personal here. I do not belong to any political group that has an ax to grind.

I am merely stating the obvious, which is distilled from the Ed Man and the

board minutes that I have available.

I have not

intended to call people names, I have not intended to assign blame, and I have “read

the book” that has been made available to the profession. I appreciate your

fatigue with reviewing the discussions. Still, one should not have to attend a

government meeting to see the foundations for their actions.

I also

want you to note that in the manual (pages “v-vi”) it states that the final

draft will be sent to a 100 member Delphi panel , that the panel will contain a

balance representative of the profession and by necessity to include both

proponents and opponents of the document, and that there is open opposition by

one unnamed political group to updating the OPUG’s.

Now, I

would expect in the minutes to see the written opinions of the 100 Delphi

members (I mistakenly thought I signed up to be one of them), the evidence for

the balance of the panel, and clearly stated oppositions from the unnamed

political group. All of this should be easily available and should be accessible

to any who ask. Yet, I am still waiting to see this. Instead, I am coerced to

attend a meeting 12 hours away where none of this will be discussed, probably

none of it will be available, and where a preponderance of the members are

seemingly unable to discuss the non-emotional basis of their decisions on the

list serve; this to “qualify” me to get the information from another source.

The

committee should be able to produce records supporting their position. The Ed

Man committee has not done so at this point. That is their prerogative. Mine is

to continue to question, and speculate if that is necessary, to discover the

basis for the committee’s Ed Man.

Also, it

seems that the fact that one unnamed political organization’s exclusion from

the Delphi process, along with the unaccountable departure of a significant number

of the original participants would cast serious doubt on the arrival at a true

consensus. It looks like the Ed Man is more valid as a political instrument,

not a consensus instrument, using the criteria for consensus from the Ed Man on

page “v-vi”. With this level of political rancor in the process it is no wonder

that the funding for the Ed Man was disapproved by Oregon Legislature in 2001

as stated on page “vii”. One would think that this might deter the continued

development, but apparently the arrow has been strung and the bow waits is

pulled with the tension straining the archer’s hand.

I like you

and respect you, as well as Sunny, JP, and every member of the OBCE. I

regret that you folks are unable to deliver useful responses to my questions,

thus, perpetuating my questions. You might consider that your positions in government

will always lead others to question your accuracy. That should come as no

surprise and certainly not as a personal attack. Remember, you folks are the

ones who sent me a document by mail. The cover letter invited my comments; I am

giving them; now, I am receiving yours; mine are questions regarding content, while

yours are responses regarding intent. There is a difference to think about,

before you respond again.

Sincerely,

Willard

Bertrand

-----Original

Message-----

From: Colwell

[mailto:cc48@...]

Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 9:37

AM

Oregon DC List; Dr. Willard

Bertrand, D.C.; Sunny Kierstyn

Subject: Re: The

Educational Manual

In this item of discusssion, and much that has preceeded it, it is all too

clear, Willard, that you are interested but haven't done your homework.

Willard, would you consider asking simple questions? Like " What does

" insufficient evidence mean? " Your speculative tirade

about what " insufficient evidence " means to the OBCE is just one

example of someone who, although very intelligent and a good communicator, is

leading a discussion but he didn't read the book before class! If

you really want to know, just ask without blaming and name calling . I would be

glad to explain as would the 6 other board members or OBCE staff. Call me at

541 482-2904 or at home 541 482-2295.

The same is true about ths Evidence Based Manual discussion. I'm suprised and pleased

that Sunny, Jack and have had the patience to tolerate your name

calling, insinuations and blaming in order to educate you. Bravo for

professional comradery! Maybe, Willard, the invitation to join the

effort wasn't just an invitation to become another one of the blind

folk who are working on these projects, but really also trying to say that

you'd get your homework done better some other way. Then, if you want to

cotribute you will be able to see the ground we've already covered, the risks

we know that we are taking and the potential benifits of those risks. To be

fair, in among these discussions you've raised some important points, many of

which are in the forgotten archives of discussions 5 years ago,and needed to be

repeated. So thank you for that.

Sunny, even if you didn't mean this in your posts, I think you've been

admirably patient.

-----

Original Message -----

From: Sunny Kierstyn

Oregon

DC List ; Dr. Willard Bertrand, D.C.

Sent:

Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:07 PM

Subject: Re: The Educational Manual

I'm sorry, Willard, that you feel that way. Multiple

philosophies and mentalities about chiropractic were represented at the table

and the chapter took a good length of time to evolve. It is only one of

many chapters to discuss chiropractic and much of what you express will be

included in those other chapters. Disdain about inadequacy was

one of the difficulties we faced when the decision was made to distribute the

incomplete portion.

The references for the for the Oregon statutes and (literally)

thousands of other chiropractic references are included. Please

take time to note them.

At this point, it seems that, no matter what we do or

did, you would/will disapprove. It's unfortunate for all of us

that your voice was not present when the thinking about this was in

action. Not only were your thoughts not added to the mix,

you weren't there to hear why, according to the consensus around the

table, our phrases and paragraphs were constructed the way they

were.

Sunny Kierstyn

-----

Original Message -----

From: Dr. Willard

Bertrand, D.C.

Oregon

DC List

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003

12:40 PM

Subject: RE:

The Educational Manual

Hi

Sunny:

I think that the committee must consider including references to the Oregon

statutes and other chiropractic references that would emphasize the

importance of chiropractic evaluation and management of nonspinal systems

(e.g. respiratory, reproductive, etc) in the correction and prevention of

subluxation. This whole section, while addressing the vitalistic nature of

chiropractic art, science, and philosophy, does poor justice to the actual

scope of chiropractic as it has been practiced in Oregon since D.D. Palmer

started practice here.

If it were the committee's intention to narrow the scope of practice, which

I sincerely doubt this was their intention, this document would serve the

purpose perfectly. It undermines our broad-scope state law by completely

ignoring it. Furthermore, if an adversary of our broad scope were to look at

a place to apply optimum leverage to restrict our broad scope procedures,

this new OBCE sanctioned Educational Manual would be the most logical place

to set the fulcrum.

Sincerely,

Willard Bertrand

Re: The Educational Manual

Hi Willard,

It would appear that those around the table did not consider this a

restrictive list. Perhaps adding the word 'physical' to the title would

make it more cogent for your concerns. Sunny Kierstyn

Sunny Kierstyn

The Educational Manual

Dear Dr. Krystin:

You stated that " The Educational Manual is something that our DC

population

will be able to use as a guide for themselves to see what is actually going

on out there in literature and consensus. "

If this is your intent for the manual, then the Educational Manual's section

on page " ix " titled " Treatment procedures utilized by

chiropractors " makes

most of Oregon's statutes virtually out of our scope. Why would you folks

find consensus on such a restrictive list of treatment procedures when our

laws allow us a such a broad scope?

Sincerely interested in your reply and those of the other committee members,

Willard Bertrand