Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

May 28, 2003

,

Commonsense? I thought you wanted documentation!

Grandma did have a cervical curve at one time, when she was seventeen, before she got rearended. The insurance adjuster said, "No crash, no cash - just common sense!"

Her "chiropractor" said, "Just a muscle spasm, we don't need no stinkin' lordosis (don't know how to fix 'em anyway), does it move OK? That's optimal for you... just commonsense!"

The "new optimum" is only optimum for further degeneration and nerve interference.

Once again from CBP Structural Rehab of the Cervical Spine, Chapter 3:

"Item #1: The belief that anatomical variations in the shape of the articular pillars and pedicles have a dramatic efffect on the cervical lordosis can only be found in the Chiropractic literature.(49-53). It seems as though MacCrae (49) (a chiropractic radiologist) is the originator of this notion. According to MacCrae, hyperplastic and hypoplastic articular pillars, divergent facet surfaces, short pedicles, and long pedicles are all common variants that affect the magnitude and shape of cervical lordosis. MacCrae stated these conjectures and provided a few drawings of each but offered no radiographs and no references supporting his claims. Additionally, the MacCrae source is a self published text without peer review. and Wei (50) offered a case report published in the Journal of Chiropractic supporting the notion of MacCrae that facet hyperplasia caused cervical kyphosis. However a case report is generally considered to be meaningless and the Journal of Chiropractic is not a peer reviewed indexed source."

With regard to a baby's joints:

Not genetically predicted, but...

The head is lifted against gravity and the most efficient support of the head against gravity that also allows for maximum movement is a cervical lordosis. And since the force and direction of the gravititational field is the same for all humans, it is reasonable/commonsense to expect all humans (young and old) to have a cervical lordosis (full spine sagittal curves) within a certain range.

The degree of degenerative change may be a limiting/challenging factor in the correction of the curves, but the abnormal curve would still not be considered a "new optimal" position as the degeneration is secondary to abnormal alignment i.e. subluxation creating deformations on the soft and hard tissue in the first place.

Curve restoration... So what if it is the on's party platform?

What's your platform and where's your documentation?

Maybe if you read their stuff you'd see just how groundbreaking it is.

Mike Riemhofer, DC

Drop TableChiropractic Biophysics-CBP Drop Table Adjusting and Postural Analysis Locations: May 31- June 1, 2003 Costa Mesa, CA Westin SouthCoast Plaza (714-540-2500) June 7-8, 2003 Newark, NJ Ramada Inn (973-824-4000)Don on, DC, PhD, MSE received his DC degree from Western States Chiropractic College in 1979. He received his M.S.E. (Mechanical Engineering) in 1997 and his Ph.D. (Mathematics) in 1998, both from the University of Alabama in Huntsville. He has taught mathematics in junior high, high school, two community colleges in Washington and Oregon, and at WSU. He had private practices in Sunnyvale, CA. and ton, WY. from 1979-1993. He originated CBP Technique in 1980 and is the author of three CBP text books, a CBP x-ray workbook, and more than 50 articles in peer-reviewed indexed journals.

Come Learn the Science & Art of Spinal Correction! Do You Make Consistent Spinal Corrections Like These?

Seminar will be Presented Using Power Point Seminar Topics Will Include:

on Peer-Reviewed Spinal Model as an Outcome or Goal of Care

Categories of Proven Spinal Subluxation Based on Published Studies Postural analysis and spinal displacements of the Head, Thorax, and Pelvis as Rotations and Translations in 3-Dimensions using reliable Measurement Methods Mirror Image Postural Adjustments using the Omni drop table Practical Station Demonstrations For Postural Analysis and Adjusting Technique Anatomical Leg Length Inequality: Causes, Consequences, Analysis, Treatment Sacral Iliac Joint Mechanics: Anatomy, Function, Motion, Disorders, Treatment Registration Through CBP Seminars 1-800-346-5146 $299 First & $200 Second DC from Same Clinic $350 at the Door Register now OnLine <../newstore>

Powered by List BuilderClick here to change or remove your subscription <http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=10479 & amp;s=DCEFDBFB6F12828C & amp;m=164>

May 29, 2003

All right Dr. Smarty Pants! You just debunked and Wei's research because of where it was cited (and not peer reviewed). Could you please argue with their findings? (And picking on Dr. when she's in a far off hostile country fighting for the reputation of American Chiropractors is disingenuous.)

And just because a chiropractor finds a reduced cervical lordosis from post taumatic hypertonicity, doesn't mean he/she " (don't know how to fix 'em anyway) " . I fix 'em all the time. I just don't take an x-ray of them while in spasm and tell everyone it is a loss of lordosis and lead them to believe it is some mysterious osseous problem. (In collegial terms, " I take umbrage with your assertion of our lack of skill in management of the functional cervical hypolordosis presentation in the mileau of the clinical setting.) In the vernacular of the locals, Liar! liar! Pants on fire!

Your statement, " ...And since the force and direction of the gravititational field is the same for all humans " may be fine for researchers, but clinicians live in a different world. A guy who installs acoustic ceilings all day has a different FUNCTIONAL force and direction of gravity than a woman who welds tiny circuits in pacemakers under a microscope all day. It's a whole positional thing not often seen in the laboratory but frequently pulled from the humdrum empirical data called " common sense " .

When I say optimal for a grandma, I mean optimal for her age and condition. If she has degeneration at C4-5-6 causing a loss of lordosis, I still get all the neighboring joints moving the best they can and have her do exercises to strengthen her neck. I then try to think up all sorts of supportive things like a good pillow, bed, desk, keyboard height, a frisky old gentleman to go dancing with, etc.

And when a well read clinician like myself says " common sense " it means a lot more than Joe lunch-bucket; which is probably why I get irritated at the type of " research " presented by ons, Foot Levelers (Motto: Why cast in neutral position when it's so HARD!?), and other people who don't give field docs credit for brains.

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

601 First Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

drscott@...

or

info@...

From: " Mike Riemhofer D.C. " <drmike@...>

Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:36:14 -0700

" The doc " <drscott@...>, " Oregon DCs " < >

Subject: Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

,

Commonsense? I thought you wanted documentation!

Grandma did have a cervical curve at one time, when she was seventeen, before she got rearended. The insurance adjuster said, " No crash, no cash - just common sense! "

Her " chiropractor " said, " Just a muscle spasm, we don't need no stinkin' lordosis (don't know how to fix 'em anyway), does it move OK? That's optimal for you... just commonsense! "

The " new optimum " is only optimum for further degeneration and nerve interference.

Once again from CBP Structural Rehab of the Cervical Spine, Chapter 3:

" Item #1: The belief that anatomical variations in the shape of the articular pillars and pedicles have a dramatic efffect on the cervical lordosis can only be found in the Chiropractic literature.(49-53). It seems as though MacCrae (49) (a chiropractic radiologist) is the originator of this notion. According to MacCrae, hyperplastic and hypoplastic articular pillars, divergent facet surfaces, short pedicles, and long pedicles are all common variants that affect the magnitude and shape of cervical lordosis. MacCrae stated these conjectures and provided a few drawings of each but offered no radiographs and no references supporting his claims. Additionally, the MacCrae source is a self published text without peer review. and Wei (50) offered a case report published in the Journal of Chiropractic supporting the notion of MacCrae that facet hyperplasia caused cervical kyphosis. However a case report is generally considered to be meaningless and the Journal of Chiropractic is not a peer reviewed indexed source. "

With regard to a baby's joints:

Not genetically predicted, but...

The head is lifted against gravity and the most efficient support of the head against gravity that also allows for maximum movement is a cervical lordosis. And since the force and direction of the gravititational field is the same for all humans, it is reasonable/commonsense to expect all humans (young and old) to have a cervical lordosis (full spine sagittal curves) within a certain range.

The degree of degenerative change may be a limiting/challenging factor in the correction of the curves, but the abnormal curve would still not be considered a " new optimal " position as the degeneration is secondary to abnormal alignment i.e. subluxation creating deformations on the soft and hard tissue in the first place.

Curve restoration... So what if it is the on's party platform?

What's your platform and where's your documentation?

Maybe if you read their stuff you'd see just how groundbreaking it is.

Mike Riemhofer, DC

Drop Table

Chiropractic Biophysics-CBP

Drop Table Adjusting and Postural Analysis

Locations: May 31- June 1, 2003 Costa Mesa, CA Westin SouthCoast Plaza (714-540-2500) June 7-8, 2003 Newark, NJ Ramada Inn (973-824-4000)

Don on, DC, PhD, MSE received his DC degree from Western States Chiropractic College in 1979. He received his M.S.E. (Mechanical Engineering) in 1997 and his Ph.D. (Mathematics) in 1998, both from the University of Alabama in Huntsville. He has taught mathematics in junior high, high school, two community colleges in Washington and Oregon, and at WSU. He had private practices in Sunnyvale, CA. and ton, WY. from 1979-1993. He originated CBP Technique in 1980 and is the author of three CBP text books, a CBP x-ray workbook, and more than 50 articles in peer-reviewed indexed journals.

Come Learn the Science & Art of Spinal Correction!

Do You Make Consistent Spinal Corrections Like These?

Seminar will be Presented Using Power Point

Seminar Topics Will Include:

on Peer-Reviewed Spinal Model as an Outcome or Goal of Care

Categories of Proven Spinal Subluxation Based on Published Studies Postural analysis and spinal displacements of the Head, Thorax, and Pelvis as Rotations and Translations in 3-Dimensions using reliable Measurement Methods Mirror Image Postural Adjustments using the Omni drop table Practical Station Demonstrations For Postural Analysis and Adjusting Technique Anatomical Leg Length Inequality: Causes, Consequences, Analysis, Treatment Sacral Iliac Joint Mechanics: Anatomy, Function, Motion, Disorders, Treatment

Registration Through CBP Seminars

1-800-346-5146

$299 First & $200 Second DC from Same Clinic $350 at the Door

Register now OnLine <../newstore>

Powered by List Builder

Click here to change or remove your subscription <http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=10479 & amp;s=DCEFDBFB6F12828C & amp;m=164>

May 29, 2003

and Mike-I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom you speak, but...

What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture is a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable of attaining the "perfect spine". The notion of real world forces affecting function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession, and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray, angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not happen (for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone.

One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's!

I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations!

Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak St

Hillsboro, OR 97123

(503)640-3724

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*

May 29, 2003

Do you take post x-rays to evaluate the "I fix 'em all the time" claim.

On this planet gravity is a constant downward force.

Carl Bonofiglio

-- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

,Commonsense? I thought you wanted documentation! Grandma did have a cervical curve at one time, when she was seventeen, before she got rearended. The insurance adjuster said, "No crash, no cash - just common sense!"Her "chiropractor" said, "Just a muscle spasm, we don't need no stinkin' lordosis (don't know how to fix 'em anyway), does it move OK? That's optimal for you... just commonsense!"The "new optimum" is only optimum for further degeneration and nerve interference.Once again from CBP Structural Rehab of the Cervical Spine, Chapter 3: "Item #1: The belief that anatomical variations in the shape of the articular pillars and pedicles have a dramatic efffect on the cervical lordosis can only be found in the Chiropractic literature.(49-53). It seems as though MacCrae (49) (a chiropractic radiologist) is the originator of this notion. According to MacCrae, hyperplastic and hypoplastic articular pillars, divergent facet surfaces, short pedicles, and long pedicles are all common variants that affect the magnitude and shape of cervical lordosis. MacCrae stated these conjectures and provided a few drawings of each but offered no radiographs and no references supporting his claims. Additionally, the MacCrae source is a self published text without peer review. and Wei (50) offered a case report published in the Journal of Chiropractic supporting the notion of MacCrae that facet hyperplasia caused cervical kyphosis. However a case report is generally considered to be meaningless and the Journal of Chiropractic is not a peer reviewed indexed source."With regard to a baby's joints:Not genetically predicted, but...The head is lifted against gravity and the most efficient support of the head against gravity that also allows for maximum movement is a cervical lordosis. And since the force and direction of the gravititational field is the same for all humans, it is reasonable/commonsense to expect all humans (young and old) to have a cervical lordosis (full spine sagittal curves) within a certain range.The degree of degenerative change may be a limiting/challenging factor in the correction of the curves, but the abnormal curve would still not be considered a "new optimal" position as the degeneration is secondary to abnormal alignment i.e. subluxation creating deformations on the soft and hard tissue in the first place.Curve restoration... So what if it is the on's party platform?What's your platform and where's your documentation?Maybe if you read their stuff you'd see just how groundbreaking it is.Mike Riemhofer, DC Drop TableChiropractic Biophysics-CBP Drop Table Adjusting and Postural Analysis Locations: May 31- June 1, 2003 Costa Mesa, CA Westin SouthCoast Plaza (714-540-2500) June 7-8, 2003 Newark, NJ Ramada Inn (973-824-4000)Don on, DC, PhD, MSE received his DC degree from Western States Chiropractic College in 1979. He received his M.S.E. (Mechanical Engineering) in 1997 and his Ph.D. (Mathematics) in 1998, both from the University of Alabama in Huntsville. He has taught mathematics in junior high, high school, two community colleges in Washington and Oregon, and at WSU. He had private practices in Sunnyvale, CA. and ton, WY. from 1979-1993. He originated CBP Technique in 1980 and is the author of three CBP text books, a CBP x-ray workbook, and more than 50 articles in peer-reviewed indexed journals.

Come Learn the Science & Art of Spinal Correction! Do You Make Consistent Spinal Corrections Like These?

Seminar will be Presented Using Power Point Seminar Topics Will Include:

on Peer-Reviewed Spinal Model as an Outcome or Goal of Care

Categories of Proven Spinal Subluxation Based on Published Studies Postural analysis and spinal displacements of the Head, Thorax, and Pelvis as Rotations and Translations in 3-Dimensions using reliable Measurement Methods Mirror Image Postural Adjustments using the Omni drop table Practical Station Demonstrations For Postural Analysis and Adjusting Technique Anatomical Leg Length Inequality: Causes, Consequences, Analysis, Treatment Sacral Iliac Joint Mechanics: Anatomy, Function, Motion, Disorders, Treatment Registration Through CBP Seminars 1-800-346-5146 $299 First & $200 Second DC from Same Clinic $350 at the Door Register now OnLine <../newstore>

Powered by List BuilderClick here to change or remove your subscription <http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=10479 & amp;s=DCEFDBFB6F12828C & amp;m=164>

May 29, 2003

To each of

you:

I have

attended a CBP cervical rehab seminar. The material is credible. Postural

change protocol does not even begin until after the initial 6-12 weeks of successful

symptom reduction. The initial period of care is not CBP, it is up to the doc

to use whatever technique they prefer. The actual postural work takes 3-18

months of 3-5 times per week traction and exercises. Results are slow, but

predictable, according to peer-reviewed studies. New radiographs are taken at

about 12 week intervals to assess progress. The on models of the normal spine

are reasonable.

Postural

rehabilitation is here and it is chiropractic.

Sincerely,

Willard Bertrand

-----Original

Message-----

From: BRIAN SEITZ

[mailto:dcdocbrian@...]

Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:17

AM

Subject: Re: CBP

Seminar... #2 Grandma

and Mike-

I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP

seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom you

speak, but...

What is wrong with common sense in

healthcare? I don't think any Chiropractor would argue against the notion

that balanced neutral posture is a best case scenerio. But not everybody

at all stages of life are capable of attaining the " perfect spine " .

The notion of real world forces affecting function and formation of compensatory

motion patterns and degenerative changes are well spoken . We are a

high touch, listening profession, and although technology is great, when we

start focusing primarily on x-ray, angles and lines we move away from

this. I always come back to the fact that synovial joints are designed

primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting first and foremost affects

motion. Improved posture and bony position may be the effect with the use

of supportive tools (cervical traction with support) and therapeutic exercise

(both of which I use), but will not happen (for a sustained period of time)

with adjusting alone.

One of the books I value from my WSCC days

is Posture and Pain. Old but still valid. I frequently take posture

pictures of my patients and utilize concepts from this book (actually the newer

text, Muscles testing and function), but I must be a heretic because the book

is written by PT's!

I advocate

the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would like to expend

our professional use of common sense into the areas of general nutrition,

fitness and inter-professional relations!

Seitz, DC

Tuality

Physicians

730-D

SE Oak St

Hillsboro,

OR 97123

(503)640-3724

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2

months FREE*

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members

will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,

it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise

distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent,

unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

May 29, 2003

Willard

I did CBP for ten years, but changed to Pettibon three years ago. I find Pettibon to cause postural changes in less time than CBP.

You are right Postural rehabilitation is here and it is chiropractic. I feel those you don't embrace it will be left on the sidelines fighting with the PT for patients.

Carl Bonofiglio

-- RE: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

To each of you:

I have attended a CBP cervical rehab seminar. The material is credible. Postural change protocol does not even begin until after the initial 6-12 weeks of successful symptom reduction. The initial period of care is not CBP, it is up to the doc to use whatever technique they prefer. The actual postural work takes 3-18 months of 3-5 times per week traction and exercises. Results are slow, but predictable, according to peer-reviewed studies. New radiographs are taken at about 12 week intervals to assess progress. The on models of the normal spine are reasonable.

Postural rehabilitation is here and it is chiropractic.

Sincerely,

Willard Bertrand

-----Original Message-----From: BRIAN SEITZ [mailto:dcdocbrian@...]Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:17 AM Subject: Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

and Mike-I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom you speak, but...

What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture is a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable of attaining the "perfect spine". The notion of real world forces affecting function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession, and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray, angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not happen (for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone.

One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's!

I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations!

Seitz, DC

Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak St

Hillsboro, OR 97123

(503)640-3724

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

May 29, 2003

More thoughts about posture and alignment:

Chiropractic common sense tells us people should have good posture and supple spines. Common sense tells me that prolonged poor posture and repetitive working postures and motions will lead to changes first in soft tissue and then in bony tissue. Therapeutic changes in these loads will lead to additional changes (after restoration of motion and improved joint nutrition). Good personal change would be appropriate exercise and improved work ergonomics and postures (but if your a plumber or electrician or lab monkey for 8-12 hours every day, change is hard!). Bad change would be a beer gut, new recliner and plasma TV (plasma TV!!!).

Here is the problem. No matter how much I believe that good posture is good and neutral curves on x-ray are the cats meow, where are the studies that coorelate such visible improvement with measurable health gains? Not that we can't restore curves, but why should we beyond appearance? With the lack of credible studies the 3rd party payors will continue to pay for resolution of symptoms and not postural rehabilitation. Go cash you say? We can do that, like orthodonists, or plastic surgeons (who both make great $$) but those practices are driven by vanity (primarily) and not health goals.

So I am not saying that improved spinal curves and good posture aren't good goals, but we need to make the case beyond claims of "it looks better" or "it restores vital nerve enery flow".

Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak St

Hillsboro, OR 97123

(503)640-3724

>From: "Doc Bono"

>, ,

>Subject: RE: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:53:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > >Willard >I did CBP for ten years, but changed to Pettibon three years ago. I find >Pettibon to cause postural changes in less time than CBP. >You are right Postural rehabilitation is here and it is chiropractic. I >feel those you don't embrace it will be left on the sidelines fighting with >the PT for patients. > >Carl Bonofiglio > > > >-- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma > > and Mike- > >I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP >seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom >you speak, but... >What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any >Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture is >a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable >of attaining the "perfect spine". The notion of real world forces affecting >function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative >changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession, >and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray, >angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact >that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting >first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may >be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with >support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not happen >(for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone. >One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but >still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize >concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and >function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's! >I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would >like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of >general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations! > Seitz, DC >Tuality Physicians >730-D SE Oak St >Hillsboro, OR 97123 >(503)640-3724 > > > > > >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > >

May 29, 2003

No post x-rays. But I can palpate reduction in hypertonicity of the cervical paraspinal and anterior muscles.

2) I said, " ...different FUNCTIONAL force and direction of gravity... " . if you give merit to the concept that different lines of force cause even gravity to actidifferently on the joints.

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

601 First Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

drscott@...

or

info@...

From: " Doc Bono " <bono@...>

Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:19:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)

<drscott@...>, < >, " Mike Riemhofer D.C. " <drmike@...>

Subject: Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

Do you take post x-rays to evaluate the " I fix 'em all the time " claim.

On this planet gravity is a constant downward force.

Carl Bonofiglio

-- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

,

Commonsense? I thought you wanted documentation!

Grandma did have a cervical curve at one time, when she was seventeen, before she got rearended. The insurance adjuster said, " No crash, no cash - just common sense! "

Her " chiropractor " said, " Just a muscle spasm, we don't need no stinkin' lordosis (don't know how to fix 'em anyway), does it move OK? That's optimal for you... just commonsense! "

The " new optimum " is only optimum for further degeneration and nerve interference.

Once again from CBP Structural Rehab of the Cervical Spine, Chapter 3:

" Item #1: The belief that anatomical variations in the shape of the articular pillars and pedicles have a dramatic efffect on the cervical lordosis can only be found in the Chiropractic literature.(49-53). It seems as though MacCrae (49) (a chiropractic radiologist) is the originator of this notion. According to MacCrae, hyperplastic and hypoplastic articular pillars, divergent facet surfaces, short pedicles, and long pedicles are all common variants that affect the magnitude and shape of cervical lordosis. MacCrae stated these conjectures and provided a few drawings of each but offered no radiographs and no references supporting his claims. Additionally, the MacCrae source is a self published text without peer review. and Wei (50) offered a case report published in the Journal of Chiropractic supporting the notion of MacCrae that facet hyperplasia caused cervical kyphosis. However a case report is generally considered to be meaningless and the Journal of Chiropractic is not a peer reviewed indexed source. "

With regard to a baby's joints:

Not genetically predicted, but...

The head is lifted against gravity and the most efficient support of the head against gravity that also allows for maximum movement is a cervical lordosis. And since the force and direction of the gravititational field is the same for all humans, it is reasonable/commonsense to expect all humans (young and old) to have a cervical lordosis (full spine sagittal curves) within a certain range.

The degree of degenerative change may be a limiting/challenging factor in the correction of the curves, but the abnormal curve would still not be considered a " new optimal " position as the degeneration is secondary to abnormal alignment i.e. subluxation creating deformations on the soft and hard tissue in the first place.

Curve restoration... So what if it is the on's party platform?

What's your platform and where's your documentation?

Maybe if you read their stuff you'd see just how groundbreaking it is.

Mike Riemhofer, DC

Drop Table

Chiropractic Biophysics-CBP

Drop Table Adjusting and Postural Analysis

Locations: May 31- June 1, 2003 Costa Mesa, CA Westin SouthCoast Plaza (714-540-2500) June 7-8, 2003 Newark, NJ Ramada Inn (973-824-4000)

Don on, DC, PhD, MSE received his DC degree from Western States Chiropractic College in 1979. He received his M.S.E. (Mechanical Engineering) in 1997 and his Ph.D. (Mathematics) in 1998, both from the University of Alabama in Huntsville. He has taught mathematics in junior high, high school, two community colleges in Washington and Oregon, and at WSU. He had private practices in Sunnyvale, CA. and ton, WY. from 1979-1993. He originated CBP Technique in 1980 and is the author of three CBP text books, a CBP x-ray workbook, and more than 50 articles in peer-reviewed indexed journals.

Come Learn the Science & Art of Spinal Correction!

Do You Make Consistent Spinal Corrections Like These?

Seminar will be Presented Using Power Point

Seminar Topics Will Include:

on Peer-Reviewed Spinal Model as an Outcome or Goal of Care

Categories of Proven Spinal Subluxation Based on Published Studies Postural analysis and spinal displacements of the Head, Thorax, and Pelvis as Rotations and Translations in 3-Dimensions using reliable Measurement Methods Mirror Image Postural Adjustments using the Omni drop table Practical Station Demonstrations For Postural Analysis and Adjusting Technique Anatomical Leg Length Inequality: Causes, Consequences, Analysis, Treatment Sacral Iliac Joint Mechanics: Anatomy, Function, Motion, Disorders, Treatment

Registration Through CBP Seminars

1-800-346-5146

$299 First & $200 Second DC from Same Clinic $350 at the Door

Register now OnLine <../newstore>

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Click here to change or remove your subscription <http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=10479 & amp;s=DCEFDBFB6F12828C & amp;m=164>

May 29, 2003

,

If you don't take post x-rays how can you tell if you fix 'em. A person can have a reduction in hypertonic muscles and still have a loss of cervical lordosis and forward head syndrome.

Vector force lines will have different magnitude, but if you add them up it still equals the constant force of gravity.

Carl Bonofiglio

-- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma,Commonsense? I thought you wanted documentation! Grandma did have a cervical curve at one time, when she was seventeen, before she got rearended. The insurance adjuster said, "No crash, no cash - just common sense!"Her "chiropractor" said, "Just a muscle spasm, we don't need no stinkin' lordosis (don't know how to fix 'em anyway), does it move OK? That's optimal for you... just commonsense!"The "new optimum" is only optimum for further degeneration and nerve interference.Once again from CBP Structural Rehab of the Cervical Spine, Chapter 3: "Item #1: The belief that anatomical variations in the shape of the articular pillars and pedicles have a dramatic efffect on the cervical lordosis can only be found in the Chiropractic literature.(49-53). It seems as though MacCrae (49) (a chiropractic radiologist) is the originator of this notion. According to MacCrae, hyperplastic and hypoplastic articular pillars, divergent facet surfaces, short pedicles, and long pedicles are all common variants that affect the magnitude and shape of cervical lordosis. MacCrae stated these conjectures and provided a few drawings of each but offered no radiographs and no references supporting his claims. Additionally, the MacCrae source is a self published text without peer review. and Wei (50) offered a case report published in the Journal of Chiropractic supporting the notion of MacCrae that facet hyperplasia caused cervical kyphosis. However a case report is generally considered to be meaningless and the Journal of Chiropractic is not a peer reviewed indexed source."With regard to a baby's joints:Not genetically predicted, but...The head is lifted against gravity and the most efficient support of the head against gravity that also allows for maximum movement is a cervical lordosis. And since the force and direction of the gravititational field is the same for all humans, it is reasonable/commonsense to expect all humans (young and old) to have a cervical lordosis (full spine sagittal curves) within a certain range.The degree of degenerative change may be a limiting/challenging factor in the correction of the curves, but the abnormal curve would still not be considered a "new optimal" position as the degeneration is secondary to abnormal alignment i.e. subluxation creating deformations on the soft and hard tissue in the first place.Curve restoration... So what if it is the on's party platform?What's your platform and where's your documentation?Maybe if you read their stuff you'd see just how groundbreaking it is.Mike Riemhofer, DC Drop TableChiropractic Biophysics-CBP Drop Table Adjusting and Postural Analysis Locations: May 31- June 1, 2003 Costa Mesa, CA Westin SouthCoast Plaza (714-540-2500) June 7-8, 2003 Newark, NJ Ramada Inn (973-824-4000)Don on, DC, PhD, MSE received his DC degree from Western States Chiropractic College in 1979. He received his M.S.E. (Mechanical Engineering) in 1997 and his Ph.D. (Mathematics) in 1998, both from the University of Alabama in Huntsville. He has taught mathematics in junior high, high school, two community colleges in Washington and Oregon, and at WSU. He had private practices in Sunnyvale, CA. and ton, WY. from 1979-1993. He originated CBP Technique in 1980 and is the author of three CBP text books, a CBP x-ray workbook, and more than 50 articles in peer-reviewed indexed journals.

Come Learn the Science & Art of Spinal Correction! Do You Make Consistent Spinal Corrections Like These?

Seminar will be Presented Using Power Point Seminar Topics Will Include:

on Peer-Reviewed Spinal Model as an Outcome or Goal of Care

Categories of Proven Spinal Subluxation Based on Published Studies Postural analysis and spinal displacements of the Head, Thorax, and Pelvis as Rotations and Translations in 3-Dimensions using reliable Measurement Methods Mirror Image Postural Adjustments using the Omni drop table Practical Station Demonstrations For Postural Analysis and Adjusting Technique Anatomical Leg Length Inequality: Causes, Consequences, Analysis, Treatment Sacral Iliac Joint Mechanics: Anatomy, Function, Motion, Disorders, Treatment Registration Through CBP Seminars 1-800-346-5146 $299 First & $200 Second DC from Same Clinic $350 at the Door Register now OnLine <../newstore>

Powered by List BuilderClick here to change or remove your subscription <http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=10479 & amp;s=DCEFDBFB6F12828C & amp;m=164>

May 29, 2003

You could be right, Carl. It seems like it's getting too deep for me.

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

601 First Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

drscott@...

or

info@...

From: " Doc Bono " <bono@...>

Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:08:12 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)

<drscott@...>, " Mike Riemhofer D.C. " <drmike@...>, < >

Subject: Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

,

If you don't take post x-rays how can you tell if you fix 'em. A person can have a reduction in hypertonic muscles and still have a loss of cervical lordosis and forward head syndrome.

Vector force lines will have different magnitude, but if you add them up it still equals the constant force of gravity.

Carl Bonofiglio

-- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

,

Commonsense? I thought you wanted documentation!

Grandma did have a cervical curve at one time, when she was seventeen, before she got rearended. The insurance adjuster said, " No crash, no cash - just common sense! "

Her " chiropractor " said, " Just a muscle spasm, we don't need no stinkin' lordosis (don't know how to fix 'em anyway), does it move OK? That's optimal for you... just commonsense! "

The " new optimum " is only optimum for further degeneration and nerve interference.

Once again from CBP Structural Rehab of the Cervical Spine, Chapter 3:

" Item #1: The belief that anatomical variations in the shape of the articular pillars and pedicles have a dramatic efffect on the cervical lordosis can only be found in the Chiropractic literature.(49-53). It seems as though MacCrae (49) (a chiropractic radiologist) is the originator of this notion. According to MacCrae, hyperplastic and hypoplastic articular pillars, divergent facet surfaces, short pedicles, and long pedicles are all common variants that affect the magnitude and shape of cervical lordosis. MacCrae stated these conjectures and provided a few drawings of each but offered no radiographs and no references supporting his claims. Additionally, the MacCrae source is a self published text without peer review. and Wei (50) offered a case report published in the Journal of Chiropractic supporting the notion of MacCrae that facet hyperplasia caused cervical kyphosis. However a case report is generally considered to be meaningless and the Journal of Chiropractic is not a peer reviewed indexed source. "

With regard to a baby's joints:

Not genetically predicted, but...

The head is lifted against gravity and the most efficient support of the head against gravity that also allows for maximum movement is a cervical lordosis. And since the force and direction of the gravititational field is the same for all humans, it is reasonable/commonsense to expect all humans (young and old) to have a cervical lordosis (full spine sagittal curves) within a certain range.

The degree of degenerative change may be a limiting/challenging factor in the correction of the curves, but the abnormal curve would still not be considered a " new optimal " position as the degeneration is secondary to abnormal alignment i.e. subluxation creating deformations on the soft and hard tissue in the first place.

Curve restoration... So what if it is the on's party platform?

What's your platform and where's your documentation?

Maybe if you read their stuff you'd see just how groundbreaking it is.

Mike Riemhofer, DC

Re: CBP Seminar

Mike,

The x-rays depicted in the ad. are remarkable. Isn't it just a tad bit pejorative to colleagues to imply that the correction in

May 29, 2003

Very good point . Does anyone have an answer to his point? Is there any research or even reasonable thoughts about why we should be doing this?

P. Thille, D.C., FACORedmond, Oregon

Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma > > and Mike- > >I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP >seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom >you speak, but... >What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any >Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture is >a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable >of attaining the "perfect spine". The notion of real world forces affecting >function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative >changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession, >and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray, >angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact >that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting >first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may >be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with >support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not happen >(for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone. >One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but >still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize >concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and >function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's! >I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would >like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of >general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations! > Seitz, DC >Tuality Physicians >730-D SE Oak St >Hillsboro, OR 97123 >(503)640-3724 > > > > > >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > >

May 29, 2003

Micheal and

The research is in on forward head syndrome and cervical lordosis. The following are some of the researchers Calliet, Freemen, Lennon and Shealy Alf Brieg etc. If you want some hard copies let me. Also common sense tells you that the lack of normal curves lengthens the spinal cord which causes tension on the cord . Also if you look at the angles of the facet joints of the cervical spine would that not indicate a need for a curve cervical

The information is there.

Carl Bonofiglio

- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

Very good point . Does anyone have an answer to his point? Is there any research or even reasonable thoughts about why we should be doing this?

P. Thille, D.C., FACORedmond, Oregon

Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma > > and Mike- > >I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP >seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom >you speak, but... >What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any >Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture is >a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable >of attaining the "perfect spine". The notion of real world forces affecting >function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative >changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession, >and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray, >angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact >that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting >first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may >be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with >support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not happen >(for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone. >One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but >still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize >concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and >function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's! >I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would >like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of >general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations! > Seitz, DC >Tuality Physicians >730-D SE Oak St >Hillsboro, OR 97123 >(503)640-3724 > > > > > >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > >

May 30, 2003

Carl-If studies exist which correlate proper posture with improved health please post the references to the list so we all may benefit from the knowledge!

Seitz, DC Tuality Physicians

730-D SE Oak St

Hillsboro, OR 97123

(503)640-3724

>From: "Doc Bono"

>,

>Subject: Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:12:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > >Micheal and > >The research is in on forward head syndrome and cervical lordosis. The >following are some of the researchers Calliet, Freemen, Lennon and Shealy >Alf Brieg etc. If you want some hard copies let me. Also common sense >tells you that the lack of normal curves lengthens the spinal cord which >causes tension on the cord . Also if you look at the angles of the facet >joints of the cervical spine would that not indicate a need for a curve >cervical > >The information is there. > >Carl Bonofiglio > >- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma > >Very good point . Does anyone have an answer to his point? Is there any >research or even reasonable thoughts about why we should be doing this? > > P. Thille, D.C., FACO >Redmond, Oregon > Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma > > > > and Mike- > > > >I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a >CBP > >seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom > >you speak, but... > >What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any > >Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture >is > >a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable > >of attaining the "perfect spine". The notion of real world forces affecting > > >function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative > >changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession, > >and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray > > >angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact > >that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal >adjusting > >first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may > >be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with > >support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not >happen > >(for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone. > >One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but > >still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize > >concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and > >function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's! > >I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would > >like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of > >general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations! > > Seitz, DC > >Tuality Physicians > >730-D SE Oak St > >Hillsboro, OR 97123 > >(503)640-3724 > > > > > > > > > > > >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > > > > >OregonDCs rules: > >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > >members will be tolerated. > >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, > > >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his >or > >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > >

May 30, 2003

Help me out here, Carl,

" lack of normal curves lengthens the spinal cord which causes tension on the cord... "

I'm not being sarcastic (for once) but if you flex your neck forward temporarily or have a job which involves looking down constantly, doesn't the cord adapt just fine?

Also, what would be the symptoms of tension on the cord (short of the disaster of an herniated brainstem, a tethered cord, or advanced spinal stenosis).

Researches get away with tossing out baloney which makes sense but doesn't have any evidence. If you want to read 4 articles on trends, agendas, and even laws based upon false claims backed by junk science read the articles from The Atlantic Online:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/sommers.htm

E. Abrahamson, D.C.

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

601 First Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

drscott@...

or

info@...

From: " Doc Bono " <bono@...>

Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:12:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)

<mtdc@...>, < >

Subject: Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

Micheal and

The research is in on forward head syndrome and cervical lordosis. The following are some of the researchers Calliet, Freemen, Lennon and Shealy Alf Brieg etc. If you want some hard copies let me. Also common sense tells you that the lack of normal curves lengthens the spinal cord which causes tension on the cord . Also if you look at the angles of the facet joints of the cervical spine would that not indicate a need for a curve cervical

The information is there.

Carl Bonofiglio

- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

Very good point . Does anyone have an answer to his point? Is there any research or even reasonable thoughts about why we should be doing this?

P. Thille, D.C., FACO

Redmond, Oregon

Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

>

> and Mike-

>

>I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP

>seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom

>you speak, but...

>What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any

>Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture is

>a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable

>of attaining the " perfect spine " . The notion of real world forces affecting

>function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative

>changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession,

>and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray,

>angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact

>that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting

>first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may

>be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with

>support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not happen

>(for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone.

>One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but

>still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize

>concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and

>function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's!

>I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would

>like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of

>general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations!

> Seitz, DC

>Tuality Physicians

>730-D SE Oak St

>Hillsboro, OR 97123

>(503)640-3724

>

>MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*

>

>OregonDCs rules:

>1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to

>foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve

>members will be tolerated.

>2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

>3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However,

>it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or

>otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or

>her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

>

May 30, 2003

-- Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma

Micheal and The research is in on forward head syndrome and cervical lordosis. The following are some of the researchers Calliet, Freemen, Lennon and Shealy Alf Brieg etc. If you want some hard copies let me. Also common sense tells you that the lack of normal curves lengthens the spinal cord which causes tension on the cord . Also if you look at the angles of the facet joints of the cervical spine would that not indicate a need for a curve cervical The information is there.Carl Bonofiglio------Original Message-------From: Dr Thille <mailto:mtdc@...> Date: Thursday, May 29, 2003 16:18:33 Subject: Re: CBP Seminar... #2 GrandmaVery good point . Does anyone have an answer to his point? Is there any research or even reasonable thoughts about why we should be doing this? P. Thille, D.C., FACORedmond, Oregon Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma > > and Mike- > >I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP >seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom >you speak, but... >What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any >Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture is >a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable >of attaining the "perfect spine". The notion of real world forces affecting >function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative >changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession, >and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray, >angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact >that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting >first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may >be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with >support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not happen >(for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone. >One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but >still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize >concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and >function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's! >I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would >like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of >general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations! > Seitz, DC >Tuality Physicians >730-D SE Oak St >Hillsboro, OR 97123 >(503)640-3724 > > > > > >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > >

May 31, 2003

and Mike et al...

This is a valid concern/question and I have a three part answer:

1. To my knowledge there is not a lot/any (?) published chiropractic research that has specifically correlated AP alignment and or sagittal curve corrections with health benefits....But it's coming which leads me to part...

2. Don on told this great story (well, I think its a great story) about the history of CBP research at one of the seminars one time.

It goes something like this...

When Don went to Univ. of Alabama in Huntsville to get his Ph.D.... at the age of 50, he actually ended up with a Masters in mechanical engineering and a Ph.D in mathematics... that's dedication to the profession.

His advisor Tad Janik, Ph.D. asked him: So why do you want to get a Ph.D.?

Don: So I can prove chiropractic works!

Tad: What do you mean?

Don: Well, we have this thing called a subluxation, you see. When we look at the spine in the side view, take the lateral cervical curve, for example, it should be a 60* arc of a circle, you see, that's normal and when it's not, that's a subluxation and that's bad and when we fix it, that's good. So I want to do some outcome studies!

Tad: This subluxation from normal, the normal is published?

Don: Ahh...No!

Tad: Then that's where you start. And how do you measure it?

Don: Well, we take the film here and we put these Ruth 's lines here and we measure the angles...

Tad: The reliability of the x-ray taking/line drawing is published?

Don: Ahh...No!

Tad: Then that's the second thing you have to do.

And you can fix these subluxations?

Don: Oh yeah! Look at these pre-post films I took in my office! I've been doing this for years!

Tad: And you have clinical controlled studies that show this can be done consistently?

Don: Ahhh... No!

Tad: That will be the next thing....THEN you can start doing some outcome studies relating correction to health benefits...

So here we are, currently CBP is in the clinical controlled trials phase of their research... on the way to health benefit/outcome studies. To my knowledge CBP Non-Profit is the most productive chiropractic research organization in the profession and they do it on a shoe string budget especially compared to what the colleges produce - the resources they have to work with.

3. There is actually quite a bit of literature discussing the negative aspects of abnormal posture/spinal alignment, and most of it is in the medical literature....

There's too many to list, but the on's use them as references to support their papers and texbooks so you can find them there. And when you attend the seminar(s) they have started providing literature review packets ala Malik Slosberg: literature citation and abstract/blurb.

Here's a few to get you started...

These first two I actually recently heard about on the "On Purpose" audio subscription service by Gentempo and Kent, I haven't read them myself, but they sound very intriguing according to Kent's review of them, the titles speak for themselves.

Koch LE, Koch H, Graumann-Brunt S, et al: Heart rate changes in response to mild mechanical irritation of the high cervical spinal cord region in infants. Forensic Science International 2002;128:168.

Horne RSC, Franco P, TM, et al:

Effects of body position on sleep and arousal characteristics in infants. Early Human Development 2002;69:25

In the CBP textbook: CBP Structural Rehabilitation of the Cervical Spine:

Chapter 3: Cervical Lordosis: A Review of the Literature with Clinical Significance.

Some of the subsections include:

Cervical Kyphosis is Not a Normal Variant

Studies indicating Cervical Lordosis is related to pain after Whiplash.

Cervical Lordosis and Neck Pain.

Cervical Lordosis and Headaches.

Cervical Lordosis and Spinal Cord or Nerve Root Injury.

Cervical Lordosis Biomechanics and Degeneration

Other references:

I don't have my cervical spine seminar notes/references in front of me, but here is one that the ons have done:

on, DE, on, DD, Janik, TJ, WE, Calliet R, Normand, M. Comparison of Flexural Stresses in Lordosis and Three Buckled Modes of the Cervical Spine.

Clinical Biomechanics 2001; 16(4): 276-284.

Computer/Mathematical modeling paper predicts the level(s) of degeneration correlated to different cervical curve configurations/harmonics: lordotic, kyphotic, lordotic-S, kyphotic-S.

Here are a few from the lumbar spine seminar:

Kiefer A. et al Synergy of the human spine in neutral postures. European Spine J. 1998;7:471-479.

During anterior and posterior thoracic translation large increases in muscle effort is required to stabilize this posture. This increase in muscle activity causes increased compressive loads acting on the L5-S1 intervertebral joint. A mere (their word) 40 mm of anterior or posterior translation causes an approximate 60% increase in the compressive force acting on the L5-S1 disc. This may cause early degenerative changes in the intervertebral discs.

Tsuji T. et al Epidemiology of lowback pain in the elderly: correlation with lumbar lordosis, J. of Orthopedic Science 2001;6:307-311.

489 subjects:: 253 no pain, 236 chronic LBP

50-85 yrs old.

Matched for age, weight, height, sex, VAS.

Excluded comp. fractures, spondys, surgery.

Lordosis measured L1-S1, 4 line Cobb angle method.

Findings:

1. No correlation between sex or age and lordosis.

2. Lordosis was decreased in chronic LBP--P=0.0006

3. Lordosis was inversely correlated w/VAS scores-P=0.025.

Tsuji et al. Knee-spine syndrome: correlation between sacral inclination and patellofemoral joint pain. J. Orthopedic Science 2002;7:519-523.

91 subjects with Chronic LBP, 25 with Patellofemoral pain (PFP), 60 control subjects.

Excluded spondys, fractures, surgery.

4 line Cobb L1-S1.

1. Lordosis not correlated with sex or age.

2. Decrease lordosis and SBA was statistically correlated with CLBP, knee flexion and PFP

3. "In elderly Japanese, decreasing lumbar lordosis and sacral inclination lead to increasing thigh muscle tension and knee flexion while standing.

Nykvist F. et al. Clinical findings as outcome predictors in rehabilitation of patients with sciatica. Int'l J. of Rehab research 1991;14:131-144.

From all the anthropometric clinical and specific test results that were available at the end of the patients' first post-operative year the following five findings emerged as the best predictors of poor long term outcome:

Sensory deficit of the legs.

Tenderness in lumbar extension.

Decreased repetitive trunk flexion capacity -situp repetitions.

Decreased lumbar lordosis.

Tightness of hamstring muscles.

MA, et al. Personal risk factors for first time lowback pain. Spine 1999;24:2497-2505.

403 health care workers ages 18-40 no history of LBP req. tx.

Computerized measure of lordosis and ROM

3 year followup with multiple exams.

Outcome:

1. Consistent predictors of serious LBP: reduced range of lumbar lateral bending, a long stiff back, reduced lumbar lordosis.

2. "As far as serious LBP is concerned, the results of the current study offer some encouragemnet to those who seek to understand it in mechanical terms. The possesion of a long, flat, or stiff back substantially increases the risk of serious LBP, and it is difficult to explain this in other than mechanical terms.

on DD et al. Elliptical modeling of the sagittal lumbar lordosis and segmetnal rotation angles as a method to discriminate between normal and low back subjects. J. of Spinal Disorders 1998;11:430-439.

50 normals no hx. of pain, tx, anomalies, or DJD. Normal exam.

50 chronic LBP >6weeks or more since 1st occurrence of pain.

50 acute LBP, <6 weeks 1st occurrence.

24 LBP with pathologies.

Subjects matched for age weight, height and sex.

Measured segmental and total angles and ellipses.

Compared to normal subjects, CLBP subjects had reduced lumbar lordosis. Acute LBP had hyperlordosis, and Pathology subjects had reduced lumbar lordosis and ellipses could not fit these subjects spinal geometry. 11/13 angles and distances showed statistically significant differences between the groups.

Korovessis P, et al Segmental roentgoenographic analysis of vertebral inclination on sagittal plane in asymptomatic versus chronic LBP pts. J. Sp. Disorders 1999;12:131-137.

Kwakami M. et al. Lumbar sagittal balance influences clinical outcome after decompression and posterolateral spinal fusion for degerative spondylolisthesis.

Itoi E. Roentgenographic analysis of posture in spinal osteoporotics. Spine 1991; 16:750-756.

Lazannec JY, et al. Sagittal alignment in lumbosacral fusion: relations between radiological parameters and pain. European Spine J. 2000;9:47-55.

Correlation between sagittal plane changes and adjacent segment degeneration following lumbar spine fusion. Eur. Spine J. 2001;10314-319.

Oda I. et al. Does spinal kyphotic deformity influence the biomechanical characteristics of the adjacent motion segments? An in vivo animal model. Spine 1999;24;2139-2146.

Umehara S. et al. The biomechanical effect of postoperative hypolordosis in instrumented lumbar fusion on instrumented and adjacent spinal segments. Spine 2000;25:1617-1624.

Etc...Etc... Etc...

For those of you who are intersted:

The next "local" CBP seminar is in Seattle scheduled for October 18-19.

Compilations of CBP research articles are available as are textbooks etc...

CBP website: www.idealspine.com

Mike Riemhofer DC

Bend, Oregon

Re: CBP Seminar... #2 Grandma > > and Mike- > >I preface this by stating that I have not yet taken the time to attend a CBP >seminar (someday I will), and I do not personally know the grandma of whom >you speak, but... >What is wrong with common sense in healthcare? I don't think any >Chiropractor would argue against the notion that balanced neutral posture is >a best case scenerio. But not everybody at all stages of life are capable >of attaining the "perfect spine". The notion of real world forces affecting >function and formation of compensatory motion patterns and degenerative >changes are well spoken . We are a high touch, listening profession, >and although technology is great, when we start focusing primarily on x-ray, >angles and lines we move away from this. I always come back to the fact >that synovial joints are designed primarily for motion, and spinal adjusting >first and foremost affects motion. Improved posture and bony position may >be the effect with the use of supportive tools (cervical traction with >support) and therapeutic exercise (both of which I use), but will not happen >(for a sustained period of time) with adjusting alone. >One of the books I value from my WSCC days is Posture and Pain. Old but >still valid. I frequently take posture pictures of my patients and utilize >concepts from this book (actually the newer text, Muscles testing and >function), but I must be a heretic because the book is written by PT's! >I advocate the further use of common sense, touch and listening, and would >like to expend our professional use of common sense into the areas of >general nutrition, fitness and inter-professional relations! > Seitz, DC >Tuality Physicians >730-D SE Oak St >Hillsboro, OR 97123 >(503)640-3724 > > > > > >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > >

May 31, 2003

Mike;

Don was in my class at WSCC and a more dedicated, hard nosed, and goal oriented man of science you'll never see. The problem I have with his work is the mechanical engineers approach to the body. The energetic aspects and subtle neurology take a back seat to force vectors and structural loading models which are in my opinion a small part of the picture. The idea of pushing and pulling body structures with weights and harnesses over many months as opposed to resolving those problems with correction of neurological reflexes and energetic control systems with a method like NeuroModulation Technique doesn't make sense to me. We see changes in minutes that people spend weeks of work with mechanical approaches to achieve. If Don got his Ph.D. to prove chiropractic works I think he missed the big picture.

Les