Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

February 8, 2003

" Unfortunately, the efficiency of teaching labor is to

teach to a mean (at best), losing both the top and bottom. "

Rick .......... dad to Jan

Rick, you so often speak the truth. Under ideal circumstances, one can

address a variety of needs in a class, but I don't see how it can ever be

done 100% of the time.

In some classes, 50% of the time is spent on classroom management. Good

teachers obviously have many tricks up their sleves. Still, if you have

several individual students who act up and refuse to do work, who have

parents that back them up and who don't consider school that relevant, and

work under school system regulations that pretty much tie administrators'

hands, then the teacher can only do so much. I work in a school community

that includes every kind of family from military offices and IT

professionals to welfare recipients and parents in or recently released from

prison-and I've learned to like it that way.

(Please don't start flaming me for defending teachers you think are lazy!

I am not a classroom teacher, although I do teach many classes; I just don't

assign grades. I am in a very good position, though, to objectively see what

classroom teachers have to deal with having the same students day in and day

out. In other words, I'm just trying to point out the reality of what

happens where I am........ Geesh, what does this mean when I'm preemptively

defending my comments???!!!)

On the other hand, there are things teachers can do to reach students

with a variety of needs and abilities. Giving options is always a good plan:

--choose one from a variety of assignments

--offer extra credit activities that range from very basic to higher types

of thinking

--provide classroom activities that appeal to many " intelligences " : verbal,

logical-mathematical, visual/artistic, athletic, musical, etc.

--make contracts with individual students for what they must do to achieve

certain grades (In some places, this could violate policy in the absence of

an IEP.)

Please notice, though, that one cannot do all of these things

simultaneously. At best, at any one time, you are teaching to the strengths

of one group of students while providing less than optimum for some of the

others.

This year our school system is requiring that all teachers attend a series

of three-hour classes after hours on classroom " differentiation " . My

rotation will start soon. Ordinarily, I would be enthusiastic. However, I

heard about an incident in the first round of classes that makes me wonder

if we can really learn much from the " experts " they're sending to teach us.

Evidently, one of our teachers commented that the teacher-students

included first year teachers, teachers that qualified for retirement,

teachers of gifted, and special ed teachers. Then he asked if the training

could be " differentiated " for the diverse group.

The answer was, " No. "

Rick is also wise when it comes to raising his own diverse children. About

the best one can do is let the child take the lead and provide opportunities

and support.

Bev

February 8, 2003

In a message dated 2/8/03 2:19:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

aedevaux@... writes:

> How common is it to have an IEP for gifted kids?

AN IEP (by definition ) is ONLY for kids who qualify for one of 14 categories

under Special Education. It IS possible, however, to have a child who is

" twice exception " ... who is bothe " gifted " and has a disability. FOr

example, I have a son who qualifies as gifted but has Central Auditory

Processing Disorder (CAPD).

It's tough when you have a bright kids to get the school to recognize that

they may have a learning disability. The two tend to cancel each other out

and the child looks " average " in class.

I'm on a listserve for gt-special ed if you are interested. There are also

some good articles on ERIC.

- Becky

February 8, 2003

In a message dated 2/8/03 5:36:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,

_Schulte@... writes:

> In our state every child who is " gifted " receives an IEP. The gifted

> program is considered part of special education services.

>

Huh? WHat state are you in?

A child doesn't qualify for Special Ed under the Federal guidelines unless

that child specifically qualifies under one of 14 Federally mandated

categories.

Send me the name of your state... I'ld be really interested in looking up how

they've structured this.

- Becky

February 8, 2003

How common is it to have an IEP for gifted kids? My daughter is in 1st

and is in the gifted program but no IEP. I wish they did because the

program is pretty ill-defined. The only real requirement is 225 minutes

of pull-out a week. The teacher has put together that is purely

" enrichment " . And they work on multi-disciplinary projects. I think

this may work for older kids but I'm not entirely sure what the value

is in 1st. For example, they recently completed a project on bats. When

we went for the open house all the kids had written stories about bats

and most of them sounded about the same. The teacher commented that the

kids had done brainstorming together and then written their own

stories. Also, there is a very heavy reliance on technology, again

something not entirely appropriate for 1st graders. It's also

frustrating because M.E.'s teacher this year is fabulous so missing

classroom time is a loss.

Anne mom to 6, Nate 4 and Nicky ds 5 months.

February 8, 2003

I don't think anyone heard of " gifted " when I was a kid, but I guess I

fell in that category. I skipped second grade but had no other special

attention. Later when we had IQ tests I got very high scores. (175 once) I

really think all it tests is one's ability to take IQ tests. And I'm pretty

good at that. I never felt particularly smart, in fact I sometimes thought,

If I'm so smart the others must really be dumb but they didn't seem that way

to me either. Except occasionally.

I'm much better at the tests than . I'm sure they miss his !Q

by a hundred or so points and some of his teachers have agreed with me. He's

often smarter than I am and much quicker witted. Of course there are things

that escape him but there are things I never can get either.

Jessie, mom of , 38, and the light of my life.

February 8, 2003

In a message dated 2/8/2003 6:11:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

RSYOSH@... writes:

> AN IEP (by definition ) is ONLY for kids who qualify for one of 14

> categories

> under Special Education.

Hmmmm... I worked at a charter school where ALL the children had IEP's.

....... and then a couple had sp ed IEP's.

February 8, 2003

In a message dated 2/8/2003 6:45:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

RSYOSH@... writes:> . The gifted

> >program is considered part of special education services.

>

It is here in AZ also.

February 8, 2003

In our state every child who is " gifted " receives an IEP. The gifted program is

considered part of special education services.

Schulte

Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

In a message dated 2/8/03 2:19:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

aedevaux@... writes:

> How common is it to have an IEP for gifted kids?

AN IEP (by definition ) is ONLY for kids who qualify for one of 14 categories

under Special Education. It IS possible, however, to have a child who is

" twice exception " ... who is bothe " gifted " and has a disability. FOr

example, I have a son who qualifies as gifted but has Central Auditory

Processing Disorder (CAPD).

It's tough when you have a bright kids to get the school to recognize that

they may have a learning disability. The two tend to cancel each other out

and the child looks " average " in class.

I'm on a listserve for gt-special ed if you are interested. There are also

some good articles on ERIC.

- Becky

February 8, 2003

Is this " gifted " program the same as if a child was in GT math or any other

GT class. Or do you guys mean gifted all around. My son is in GT math and

science and he is in elementary school and my brother is in GT math and

science and he is in middle school. We live in MD and we don't have IEP's

for them if they are in GT classes. Just wondering

>From: " Schulte " <_Schulte@...>

> " UPSNDOWNS " < >,<RSYOSH@...>

>Subject: Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:35:05 -0600

>

>In our state every child who is " gifted " receives an IEP. The gifted

>program is considered part of special education services.

>

> Schulte

> Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

>

> In a message dated 2/8/03 2:19:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> aedevaux@... writes:

>

> > How common is it to have an IEP for gifted kids?

>

> AN IEP (by definition ) is ONLY for kids who qualify for one of 14

>categories

> under Special Education. It IS possible, however, to have a child who

>is

> " twice exception " ... who is bothe " gifted " and has a disability. FOr

> example, I have a son who qualifies as gifted but has Central Auditory

> Processing Disorder (CAPD).

>

> It's tough when you have a bright kids to get the school to recognize

>that

> they may have a learning disability. The two tend to cancel each other

>out

> and the child looks " average " in class.

>

> I'm on a listserve for gt-special ed if you are interested. There are

>also

> some good articles on ERIC.

>

> - Becky

>

February 8, 2003

In our state regs, gifted is one of the categories that qualifies for special

education. Every student that meets the criteria for " gifted " has an IEP. That

said, in our school district, I have found that the program is pretty much

cookie cutter. They also put some kids in the program without IEP's as

enrichment. It gets kind of muddled.

Darcy

Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

In a message dated 2/8/03 2:19:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

aedevaux@... writes:

> How common is it to have an IEP for gifted kids?

AN IEP (by definition ) is ONLY for kids who qualify for one of 14 categories

under Special Education. It IS possible, however, to have a child who is

" twice exception " ... who is bothe " gifted " and has a disability. FOr

example, I have a son who qualifies as gifted but has Central Auditory

Processing Disorder (CAPD).

It's tough when you have a bright kids to get the school to recognize that

they may have a learning disability. The two tend to cancel each other out

and the child looks " average " in class.

I'm on a listserve for gt-special ed if you are interested. There are also

some good articles on ERIC.

- Becky

February 8, 2003

In our high school we have what is called AP math, science, history, english

etc,. I think that kids have to test into them by subject. Sort of an honors

program. You do not need to be qualified " gifted " to participate in these

classes, hence, no IEP. Would that be similar to GT in your state? Darcy

Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

>

> In a message dated 2/8/03 2:19:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> aedevaux@... writes:

>

> > How common is it to have an IEP for gifted kids?

>

> AN IEP (by definition ) is ONLY for kids who qualify for one of 14

>categories

> under Special Education. It IS possible, however, to have a child who

>is

> " twice exception " ... who is bothe " gifted " and has a disability. FOr

> example, I have a son who qualifies as gifted but has Central Auditory

> Processing Disorder (CAPD).

>

> It's tough when you have a bright kids to get the school to recognize

>that

> they may have a learning disability. The two tend to cancel each other

>out

> and the child looks " average " in class.

>

> I'm on a listserve for gt-special ed if you are interested. There are

>also

> some good articles on ERIC.

>

> - Becky

>

February 8, 2003

yes Darcy, what you are talking about sounds more like what i'm talking

about honors classes no IEP

>From: " and Darcy Eads " <seads1@...>

>< >

>Subject: Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:13:21 -0600

>

>In our high school we have what is called AP math, science, history,

>english etc,. I think that kids have to test into them by subject. Sort

>of an honors program. You do not need to be qualified " gifted " to

>participate in these classes, hence, no IEP. Would that be similar to GT

>in your state? Darcy

> Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

> >

> > In a message dated 2/8/03 2:19:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> > aedevaux@... writes:

> >

> > > How common is it to have an IEP for gifted kids?

> >

> > AN IEP (by definition ) is ONLY for kids who qualify for one of 14

> >categories

> > under Special Education. It IS possible, however, to have a child

>who

> >is

> > " twice exception " ... who is bothe " gifted " and has a disability.

>FOr

> > example, I have a son who qualifies as gifted but has Central

>Auditory

> > Processing Disorder (CAPD).

> >

> > It's tough when you have a bright kids to get the school to

>recognize

> >that

> > they may have a learning disability. The two tend to cancel each

>other

> >out

> > and the child looks " average " in class.

> >

> > I'm on a listserve for gt-special ed if you are interested. There

>are

> >also

> > some good articles on ERIC.

> >

> > - Becky

> >

February 9, 2003

Have to admit, I missed the first of this thread. To sick to read, lol. But

I had to put in there I believe Indiana also groups the two together. There

is the Indiana Division of Exceptional Learning. This encompasses the

Special Education, and I believe, the Gifted and Talented too. If I'm wrong,

sorry, still too many steroids running thru the body, lol.

Beth

February 9, 2003

In a message dated 2/9/03 10:06:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, djackht@...

writes:

> Have to admit, I missed the first of this thread. To sick to read, lol.

> But

> I had to put in there I believe Indiana also groups the two together.

> There

> is the Indiana Division of Exceptional Learning. This encompasses the

> Special Education, and I believe, the Gifted and Talented too. If I'm

> wrong,

> sorry, still too many steroids running thru the body, lol.

>

> Beth

>

I can understand that.... because the two areas do require taddress children

who are at risk and require special attention be paid to adapting the

curriculum. But what I find odd is grouping them together under the law for

elligibility, etc, since Spec Ed gets federal funding and GT does not. It

creates a lot of confusion and could also explain in part why the numbers of

kids identified for " special ed " varies so much much state to state.

- Becky

February 9, 2003

In a message dated 2/9/2003 1:06:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, djackht@...

writes:

<< Have to admit, I missed the first of this thread. To sick to read, lol.

But

I had to put in there I believe Indiana also groups the two together. >>

I just checked with my SIL. My nephew was in a gufted program in NYC and he

did not have an IEP.

Kathy, Liam's mom(almost 5)

February 9, 2003

Ben and Brendt both are strongest in math. But, the gifted program...actually

called " wings " focuses on any area the child is interested in exploring. I

speak only for my state, here they identify children as gifted by looking at

their IQ and their scores on the standardized test such as IBST.

Once they are identified and placed in wings the parents and teachers sit down

and organize goals for the students. The kids can choose any area they want to

further explore, even if it isn't their strongest subject. After they are

14yrs. old the kids are required to be present. Ben was 13 at the last IEP

meeting and chose to be present.

From what I have read on this all states don't do IEP's for kids just because

they identified as gifted, but some states do. Kansas is not alone in handling

gifted through special ed. A few other states do this, but I can't remember

which ones...I'd have to look that up. The states probably choose this route

because a lot of children who are gifted are also " at risk " for getting bored in

school, not communicating well with their piers, etc., etc..

Schulte

Mom to Ben-13, Brendt-11, Blake-2 w/ds

Also wife to Jered & foster mom to Tierra -4

Re: re: was IEP, now IEP for gifted

>

> In a message dated 2/8/03 2:19:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> aedevaux@... writes:

>

> > How common is it to have an IEP for gifted kids?

>

> AN IEP (by definition ) is ONLY for kids who qualify for one of 14

>categories

> under Special Education. It IS possible, however, to have a child who

>is

> " twice exception " ... who is bothe " gifted " and has a disability. FOr

> example, I have a son who qualifies as gifted but has Central Auditory

> Processing Disorder (CAPD).

>

> It's tough when you have a bright kids to get the school to recognize

>that

> they may have a learning disability. The two tend to cancel each other

>out

> and the child looks " average " in class.

>

> I'm on a listserve for gt-special ed if you are interested. There are

>also

> some good articles on ERIC.

>

> - Becky

>

February 9, 2003

In a message dated 2/9/2003 1:29:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, RSYOSH@...

writes:

> But what I find odd is grouping them together under the law for

> elligibility, etc, since Spec Ed gets federal funding and GT does not.

There are no federal laws requiring school systems to offer programs for

gifted students; nor do gifted students have any " rights " to be protected by

law.

School systems usually group the two together because they are provided with

additional services and utilized specialized staff.

Cheryl in VA

February 9, 2003

We have AP programs for high school students that meet certain criteria in

order to participate. That is different than the gifted program for students

who are tested and labeled gifted. And there are particular classes for

those students only.

Cheryl in VA

February 9, 2003

In a message dated 2/8/2003 8:45:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, RSYOSH@...

writes:

> I'ld be really interested in looking up how

> they've structured this.

>

I'd be interested in seeing an IEP for a gifted child. Do they have

separate goals?

What happens if they don't master the goals, are they drummed out the

program?

Cheryl in VA

February 9, 2003

In a message dated 2/9/2003 9:35:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,

_Schulte@... writes:

> Gifted education is a part of special education in Kansas and as such it

> must comply with most of the laws set forth in IDEA 1997 (Individuals with

> Disabilities Education Act).

IDEA does not cover gifted students, regardless of what a state says. If

they wish their gifted education to mimic IDEA rules then I guess they can

but that is pretty unusual. I like how they said it must comply with most of

the laws. Wonder how they chose which ones it would comply with?

Cheryl in VA

February 9, 2003

In a message dated 2/9/03 5:01:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, wildwards@...

writes:

>

> We have AP programs for high school students that meet certain criteria in

> order to participate. That is different than the gifted program for

> students

> who are tested and labeled gifted. And there are particular classes for

> those students only.

> Cheryl in VA

>

interestly enough - statistics have shown that if a child participates in an

AP class... even if that child does NOT do well in the class (ie doesn't

score high enough to qualifiy for advanced placement in college) .... that

child will do better in college.

Moral of the story - all college-bound students should have at least ONE AP

class before graduating HS, just for the experience. It should have nothing

to do with being " gifted. "

- Becky

February 9, 2003

The school districts in Kansas do IEP's for gifted children. The goals are much

the same as the goals we set in Blake's IFSP's. The principle and the gifted

teacher and one of my children's classroom teachers are present for the IEP

meetings.

Beforehand, I discuss with my son what he would like to achieve academically

over the next year. Last year he said he wanted to learn more about computer

programming so we wrote that into his IEP as a long term goal. His gifted

teacher said his weakest subject was language, so she wanted to see him work on

writing some short essays as a short-term goal.

The teachers are careful about what they put in the IEP's because legally they

have to follow through on providing the resources for any goal that they set. I

have a brochure given to me at each IEP meeting that says school is required to

assist my child in meeting these IEP goals, and what my rights are if they

don't.

If a child struggles to make up work in the other classes he is missing out on

he/she have the option of dropping out of or quitting the program.

In the IEP meeting we discuss strengths, weaknesses and what they want to

achieve. I am sure you are already aware of the formal paperwork envolved for

instance they send notice of the IEP meeting in the mail. There are thousands

of forms to sign showing I know my rights, etc., etc., etc.

Schulte

In a message dated 2/8/2003 8:45:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, RSYOSH@...

writes:

I'ld be really interested in looking up how

they've structured this.

I'd be interested in seeing an IEP for a gifted child. Do they have

separate goals?

What happens if they don't master the goals, are they drummed out the

program?

Cheryl in VA

February 9, 2003

If you are interested you can go here and read about our special education

programs. If you make it all the way down (it's a long document) to the PSAM -

level 4 section it addresses the IEP's written for gifted students.

http://www.kansped.org/ksde/epracticescompanionG_files/epracticescompanionG.html

Or a simpler explanation is at

http://www.bluevalleyk12.org/ca/programs/enrichment_faq.htm

It is just one school's explanation of FAQ's for gifted students. The following

text comes from this site, and as you can see it address the funding issues as

well.....

What is an IEP all about? Is it a legal document? What does it do for my child?

Do parents get to have input into an IEP? What if I disagree with the contents

of the IEP?

An IEP is an Individualized Education Plan written specifically for your child's

unique needs. It describes the child's present level of functioning and includes

goals and objectives/benchmarks which guide the unique cognitive and affective

needs of your child as a gifted student. Parents have an integral part in

designing the goals for their child and must sign a form to agree with services

to be provided. If a parent does not agree with the IEP, mediation may be used

to reach agreement. Gifted education is a part of special education in Kansas

and as such it must comply with most of the laws set forth in IDEA 1997

(Individuals with Disabilities Education Act). Schools in Kansas receive state

special education funds but not Federal Funds. Each parent is provided with a

copy of the " Parents Rights in Special Education " which describes the legal

aspects of the IEP process.

February 9, 2003

This is interesting. In Sc gifted programs do not start until 3rd grade, I

think for the same reasons (concerns) you have, Anne.

mom to Bridget 9 ds in SC