Guest guest Posted November 4, 2001 Report Share Posted November 4, 2001 Doc's: Is there anyone out there who is having trouble with Alternare and denial of treatment plans, # visits, follow up assessment or other denial of services that are reasonable and necessary? Please respond to me personally in order to spare others on the list. Thanks Dr B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 , Alternare, just like Complementary Health Plans here in Oregon has not increased there reimbursement in over 4 years. I would think seriously before signing on with them. We have requested that they update their reimbursement schedule several times, but to no avail. Yours, DR. COBY L. HANES991 NE THIRD STREETPRINEVILLE, OR 97754voice: 541.447.7230fax: 541.447.5775dochanes@... -----Original Message-----From: ang320@... [mailto:ang320@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: AlternareI recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. ---Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 I believe in fair competitive pricing, and Alternaire provides this consistently. They do not allow full freedom of choice in health care like a PIP or some other private plans but payment is adequate and they pay promptly with a minimum of paperwork. Most of us in Union County Oregon are members of the panel which is not restrictive like CHP. It is a good plan for medium income people. It is interesting that the same people who slam the managed care industry also want to salvage the PIP industry by limiting fees to make us all one big happy rate controlled profession. Ironic, isn’t it, that I who belong to several managed care organizations do not feel it is necessary to make the whole state into managed care by the OBCE. Maybe there is a lesson in this. Back to you Dr. Coby. Willard Bertrand, D.C. Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Willard, I am not sure if you are referring to me when you say "It is interesting that the same people who slam the managed care industry also want to salvage the PIP industry by limiting fees to make us all one big happy rate controlled profession." If you are referring to me, which I assume you are because you close by saying Back to you Dr. Coby, you are way off base! I have had very little to say in this whole limiting fees debacle. And, just for the record I am opposed to more bureaucracy and limiting fees. I have full faith in the free market system and universal laws "what comes around goes around." Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you chuck spears Willard. Back to You! DR. COBY L. HANES991 NE THIRD STREETPRINEVILLE, OR 97754voice: 541.447.7230fax: 541.447.5775dochanes@... -----Original Message-----From: Dr. Willard Bertrand [mailto:mail@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 6:35 PM Subject: RE: Alternare I believe in fair competitive pricing, and Alternaire provides this consistently. They do not allow full freedom of choice in health care like a PIP or some other private plans but payment is adequate and they pay promptly with a minimum of paperwork. Most of us in Union County Oregon are members of the panel which is not restrictive like CHP. It is a good plan for medium income people. It is interesting that the same people who slam the managed care industry also want to salvage the PIP industry by limiting fees to make us all one big happy rate controlled profession. Ironic, isn’t it, that I who belong to several managed care organizations do not feel it is necessary to make the whole state into managed care by the OBCE. Maybe there is a lesson in this. Back to you Dr. Coby. Willard Bertrand, D.C. -----Original Message-----From: Dr. Coby Hanes [mailto:dochanes@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:54 PMang320@...; Subject: RE: Alternare , Alternare, just like Complementary Health Plans here in Oregon has not increased there reimbursement in over 4 years. I would think seriously before signing on with them. We have requested that they update their reimbursement schedule several times, but to no avail. Yours, DR. COBY L. HANES991 NE THIRD STREETPRINEVILLE, OR 97754voice: 541.447.7230fax: 541.447.5775dochanes@... -----Original Message-----From: ang320@... [mailto:ang320@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. ---Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 ---Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 I did not target you specifically, Dr. Coby. I am simply continuing to spear points against the proposed fee limiting regulations. Thanks for keeping me on base! Willard Bertrand, D.C. -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Coby Hanes [mailto:dochanes@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 7:29 PM 'Dr. Willard Bertrand'; Subject: RE: Alternare Willard, I am not sure if you are referring to me when you say " It is interesting that the same people who slam the managed care industry also want to salvage the PIP industry by limiting fees to make us all one big happy rate controlled profession. " If you are referring to me, which I assume you are because you close by saying Back to you Dr. Coby, you are way off base! I have had very little to say in this whole limiting fees debacle. And, just for the record I am opposed to more bureaucracy and limiting fees. I have full faith in the free market system and universal laws " what comes around goes around. " Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you chuck spears Willard. Back to You! DR. COBY L. HANES 991 NE THIRD STREET PRINEVILLE, OR 97754 voice: 541.447.7230 fax: 541.447.5775 dochanes@... Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Gentlemen It is not a " fee limiting regulation " like managed care. It is clarifying that someone who charges $150 for an adjustment that you provide for $50 had better be able to justify why their treatment is 3 times more valuable than your treatment. If you consider that " fee limiting regulation " , then your sensitivity to any type of consensus regulation is probably too overwhelming for you to ever see the benefits to our profession. Without proper justification, the excessive fees and treatments are detrimental to our entire profession. It is much easier, (but less healthy for our profession) to blame everybody else for all of our woes. How many patients go to MDs because it is easier than taking personal responsibility for their health. Yes, we have been victimized in the past by the insurance companies, legislators, and medical doctors among others. Yet some of the blame rests on our inability to regulate those that are excessive in their fees and treatment. Lets come together and find a solution for our problems and improve our profession. All this railing against the OBCE for considering an Administrative Rule clarifying what constitues excessive treatment and fees, reminds me of the Medical profession railing against chiropractic treatment as something harmful to our patients health. . . . . and we all know that wasn't true, don't we. Yours in Health, J. Vissers, DC Original Message: ----------------- From: Dr. Willard Bertrand, D.C. mail@... Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:54:14 -0700 Subject: RE: Alternare I did not target you specifically, Dr. Coby. I am simply continuing to spear points against the proposed fee limiting regulations. Thanks for keeping me on base! Willard Bertrand, D.C. Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 They have a low fee schedule (there is some variation in plans) and limited re-embursement, however, they are fast and make very few errors in claim processing. I've been a member since they started, patients love having it. Ann Goldeen, Astoria Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Exactly : The excessive fee rule is linked but separate and distinct from excessive treatment (frequency and duration of care). The excessive fee rule is for the $45.00 cold pack that the provider gives the patient to take home and use which the clinic paid the vendor $1.50 for. Or the $3,500 charge for nerve conduction testing that costs $350 at your local medical neurologist's clinic. The above two examples are real occurrences. The proposed excessive fee rule is not about setting a " one size fits all " specific fee schedule which is wrong and is in direct conflict with the tenets of free enterprise. Oops almost forgot that's right due to our failure to act relative to the issue of excessive fees the PIP insurance carriers (Farmers/State Farm) via an amendment to HB 3668 have now stuck us to a flat fee schedule...that be the fee Worker's Compensation fee schedule...is that " concrete " enough for ya? That sound you heard out in your barn was all the chickens (chicken littles of course), geese, ducks, and other smaller animals (HB3668 fee schedule) leaving your barn. These are the sounds generally heard just prior to your huge reliable plow horse (PIP) gallops out of the barn into the sunset never to return again...then...and only then will we take the drastic step of closing the barn door...makes perfect sense to me hey it worked like a charm in 1990 (SB 1197) I'm sure we can make work again. Vern Saboe, DC Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Excuse me please, but when was the last time anyone got paid $150 for an adjustment? There are already limits on what 3rd parties will pay for CPT 98940 through 9894-whatever. And now PIP has the WC fee schedule to limit what one can charge anyway. So why the big freakin' fuss over this issue? I had my annual visit to my urologist 2 weeks ago. The nice man chatted with me for 3 minutes, bent me over and stuck his finger up my rectum and told me " everything looked OK " , to which I asked, how would he know if " everything LOOKED OK " unless he had eyes on the end of that digit. He laughed and corrected his verbage. The bill for this enlightening little tickle? $289.96. It gives one perspective as to the " value " of your time. Something to think about. Perhaps you SHOULD be charging more? Ray DC Gentlemen It is not a " fee limiting regulation " like managed care. It is clarifying that someone who charges $150 for an adjustment that you provide for $50 had better be able to justify why their treatment is 3 times more valuable than your treatment. If you consider that " fee limiting regulation " , then your sensitivity to any type of consensus regulation is probably too overwhelming for you to ever see the benefits to our profession. Without proper justification, the excessive fees and treatments are detrimental to our entire profession. It is much easier, (but less healthy for our profession) to blame everybody else for all of our woes. How many patients go to MDs because it is easier than taking personal responsibility for their health. Yes, we have been victimized in the past by the insurance companies, legislators, and medical doctors among others. Yet some of the blame rests on our inability to regulate those that are excessive in their fees and treatment. Lets come together and find a solution for our problems and improve our profession. All this railing against the OBCE for considering an Administrative Rule clarifying what constitues excessive treatment and fees, reminds me of the Medical profession railing against chiropractic treatment as something harmful to our patients health. . . . . and we all know that wasn't true, don't we. Yours in Health, J. Vissers, DC Original Message: ----------------- From: Dr. Willard Bertrand, D.C. mail@... Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:54:14 -0700 Subject: RE: Alternare I did not target you specifically, Dr. Coby. I am simply continuing to spear points against the proposed fee limiting regulations. Thanks for keeping me on base! Willard Bertrand, D.C. Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 ; You don't post often enough. Thanks for those cogent thoughts in your last couple of posts. Best regards, Les RE: Alternare Excuse me please, but when was the last time anyone got paid $150 for an adjustment? There are already limits on what 3rd parties will pay for CPT 98940 through 9894-whatever. And now PIP has the WC fee schedule to limit what one can charge anyway. So why the big freakin' fuss over this issue? I had my annual visit to my urologist 2 weeks ago. The nice man chatted with me for 3 minutes, bent me over and stuck his finger up my rectum and told me " everything looked OK " , to which I asked, how would he know if " everything LOOKED OK " unless he had eyes on the end of that digit. He laughed and corrected his verbage. The bill for this enlightening little tickle? $289.96. It gives one perspective as to the " value " of your time. Something to think about. Perhaps you SHOULD be charging more? Ray DC OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Coby: re: Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you chuck spears Willard. Perhaps you didn't know that Willard used to be known as " Spearchucker Bertrand " , the baddest jose ever to heave a spear or an epithet at a salmon or an adversary in that order. Just for the record and just kidding. E. Abrahamson, D.C. Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic Please note " New address " 315 Second Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 drscott@... or info@... From: " Dr. Coby Hanes " <dochanes@...> Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:28:50 -0700 " 'Dr. Willard Bertrand' " <mail@...>, < > Subject: RE: Alternare Willard, I am not sure if you are referring to me when you say " It is interesting that the same people who slam the managed care industry also want to salvage the PIP industry by limiting fees to make us all one big happy rate controlled profession. " If you are referring to me, which I assume you are because you close by saying Back to you Dr. Coby, you are way off base! I have had very little to say in this whole limiting fees debacle. And, just for the record I am opposed to more bureaucracy and limiting fees. I have full faith in the free market system and universal laws " what comes around goes around. " Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you chuck spears Willard. Back to You! DR. COBY L. HANES 991 NE THIRD STREET PRINEVILLE, OR 97754 voice: 541.447.7230 fax: 541.447.5775 dochanes@... Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I want to know where I can get one of those $289.96/3 min. fingers! E. Abrahamson, D.C. Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic Please note " New address " 315 Second Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 drscott@... or info@... From: mottray@... Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:05:25 +0000 mvissers@... Cc: Subject: RE: Alternare Excuse me please, but when was the last time anyone got paid $150 for an adjustment? There are already limits on what 3rd parties will pay for CPT 98940 through 9894-whatever. And now PIP has the WC fee schedule to limit what one can charge anyway. So why the big freakin' fuss over this issue? I had my annual visit to my urologist 2 weeks ago. The nice man chatted with me for 3 minutes, bent me over and stuck his finger up my rectum and told me " everything looked OK " , to which I asked, how would he know if " everything LOOKED OK " unless he had eyes on the end of that digit. He laughed and corrected his verbage. The bill for this enlightening little tickle? $289.96. It gives one perspective as to the " value " of your time. Something to think about. Perhaps you SHOULD be charging more? Ray DC OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 , I have been with Alternare (Not to be confused with Alternair-hair removal lotion for razorphobics) for 2 years. I hate managed care's guts and liver, but they have been business-like, and honest. We got a " more treatment please " request in after the pt. had returned for an aggravation 4 months after finishing care and after we had treated her twice. They retroactively approved of tx. Would that other MCO's were as honest and fair! E. Abrahamson, D.C. Chiropractic physician Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic Please note " New address " 315 Second Street Lake Oswego, OR 97034 503-635-6246 drscott@... or info@... From: ang320@... Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:24:00 EDT Subject: Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2004 Report Share Posted May 15, 2004 , Yes, you are correct. The idea of a new rule for excess treatment/ fees, is not generated by the OBCE. When the public comes to us, we are obligated to respond. The public includes chiropractors. We often get suggestions from DC's in the field. In addition to hundreds of pages of complaints, staff reports, new doctor orientation development, budget reports, private investigative reports, licensing change reports, CA reports, legislative reports, each agenda has something suggested from the field that we are obligated to discuss and consider. I use the word obligation not as a negative. Just a fact. We put it on the agenda and either send it to committee within the board (peer review, rules advisory etc) or send a letter back to the doctor suggesting where he or she might find help. I hope this helps those reading understand how the OBCE works. As a member, I'm working to bring the concerns you send me via this listserv, such as the suggested changes to the new doc orientation (Joe Medlin's baby). In addition, I took several docs posted concerns (with their permission), to the rules advisory meeting. Because of your suggestions, there was a general agreement that any of these new rules should pertain to 3rd party payment only. (However, you should know that most of the committee felt this was a good idea already.) New research, cash practices, wellness care and contracted special service fees with patients are being discussed as exempt. The committee is looking at ways to use specific language to deal with that. We need your help immediately on that. IT's not as easy as it sounds. We have to say it in a way that doesn't imply unequal fee schedules. Anyone able to come to a meeting for input to help us is appreciated. There is also a poly com line you can dial in on to participate remotely if you can't drive to Salem. If nothing else, simply email directly to me including a note of permission for me to copy your email. I'll take it and present it as best I can. The next meeting is tenatively scheduled for July 8th. Please be patient and understand that the job is pretty time consuming. We are all volunteers running a practice as well. It would be appreciated by me if you could give constructive suggestions without general, blanket statements referring to the "OBCE" as some organization trying to ruin the profession. Thanks, Minga Guerrero DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2004 Report Share Posted May 15, 2004 I believe that it is the CAO that is proposing the " Excessive Fee Rule " , NOT the OBCE. <html><DIV> Knecht DC </DIV>Namaste Chiropractic <DIV></DIV>1809 NW <DIV></DIV>Portland, OR 97209 <DIV></DIV>503-226-8010</html> & gt;From: & quot;mvissers@... & quot; & lt;mvissers@... & gt; & gt;Reply-mvissers@... & gt; & gt;Subject: RE: Alternare & gt;Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 01:33:12 -0400 & gt; & gt;Gentlemen & gt; & gt;It is not a & quot;fee limiting regulation & quot; like managed care. It is clarifying & gt;that someone who charges $150 for an adjustment that you provide for $50 & gt;had better be able to justify why their treatment is 3 times more valuable & gt;than your treatment. If you consider that & quot;fee limiting regulation & quot;, then & gt;your sensitivity to any type of consensus regulation is probably too & gt;overwhelming for you to ever see the benefits to our profession. Without & gt;proper justification, the excessive fees and treatments are detrimental to & gt;our entire profession. & gt; & gt;It is much easier, (but less healthy for our profession) to blame everybody & gt;else for all of our woes. How many patients go to MDs because it is easier & gt;than taking personal responsibility for their health. Yes, we have been & gt;victimized in the past by the insurance companies, legislators, and medical & gt;doctors among others. Yet some of the blame rests on our inability to & gt;regulate those that are excessive in their fees and treatment. Lets come & gt;together and find a solution for our problems and improve our profession. & gt; & gt;All this railing against the OBCE for considering an Administrative Rule & gt;clarifying what constitues excessive treatment and fees, reminds me of the & gt;Medical profession railing against chiropractic treatment as something & gt;harmful to our patients health. . . . . and we all know that wasn't true, & gt;don't we. & gt; & gt;Yours in Health, & gt; & gt; J. Vissers, DC & gt; & gt; & gt;Original Message: & gt;----------------- & gt;From: Dr. Willard Bertrand, D.C. mail@... & gt;Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:54:14 -0700 & gt; & gt;Subject: RE: Alternare & gt; & gt; & gt;I did not target you specifically, Dr. Coby. I am simply continuing to spear & gt;points against the proposed fee limiting regulations. & gt; & gt;Thanks for keeping me on base! & gt; & gt;Willard Bertrand, D.C. & gt; & gt; Alternare & gt;I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer & gt;called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one & gt;of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, & gt;chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar & gt;with them? & gt; & gt; Anglen & gt; & gt;OregonDCs rules: & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve & gt;members will be tolerated. & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;--- & gt;Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 & gt; & gt; & gt;OregonDCs rules: & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve & gt;members will be tolerated. & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;OregonDCs rules: & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve & gt;members will be tolerated. & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;--- & gt;Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 & gt; & gt;--- & gt;Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 & gt; & gt; & gt;OregonDCs rules: & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve & gt;members will be tolerated. & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2004 Report Share Posted May 15, 2004 Yes : It is the CAO that is proposing both an " Excessive Fee Rule " and an " Excessive Treatment/Under Treatment Rule. " Vern Saboe, DC President Chiropractic Association of Oregon Alternare > & gt;I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed > care/insurer > & gt;called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were > one > & gt;of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, > & gt;chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you > familiar > & gt;with them? > & gt; > & gt; Anglen > & gt; > & gt;OregonDCs rules: > & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > & gt;members will be tolerated. > & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, > & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;--- > & gt;Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;OregonDCs rules: > & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > & gt;members will be tolerated. > & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, > & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;OregonDCs rules: > & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > & gt;members will be tolerated. > & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, > & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;--- > & gt;Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > & gt; > & gt;--- > & gt;Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;OregonDCs rules: > & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > & gt;members will be tolerated. > & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, > & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2004 Report Share Posted May 15, 2004 , Thanks for the clarification. The CAO is " proposing " it and the OBCE will have to " consider " whether to make the proposal an Administrative Rule. My point was not who was bringing the proposal, but who was bearing the verbal onslaught for even " considering " it. Thanks, J. Vissers, DC Original Message: ----------------- From: Knecht allenknecht@... Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 16:41:28 -0700 mvissers@..., Subject: RE: Alternare I believe that it is the CAO that is proposing the " Excessive Fee Rule " , NOT the OBCE. <html><DIV> Knecht DC </DIV>Namaste Chiropractic <DIV></DIV>1809 NW <DIV></DIV>Portland, OR 97209 <DIV></DIV>503-226-8010</html> >From: " mvissers@... " <mvissers@...> >Reply-mvissers@... > >Subject: RE: Alternare >Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 01:33:12 -0400 > >Gentlemen > >It is not a " fee limiting regulation " like managed care. It is clarifying >that someone who charges $150 for an adjustment that you provide for $50 >had better be able to justify why their treatment is 3 times more valuable >than your treatment. If you consider that " fee limiting regulation " , then >your sensitivity to any type of consensus regulation is probably too >overwhelming for you to ever see the benefits to our profession. Without >proper justification, the excessive fees and treatments are detrimental to >our entire profession. > >It is much easier, (but less healthy for our profession) to blame everybody >else for all of our woes. How many patients go to MDs because it is easier >than taking personal responsibility for their health. Yes, we have been >victimized in the past by the insurance companies, legislators, and medical >doctors among others. Yet some of the blame rests on our inability to >regulate those that are excessive in their fees and treatment. Lets come >together and find a solution for our problems and improve our profession. > >All this railing against the OBCE for considering an Administrative Rule >clarifying what constitues excessive treatment and fees, reminds me of the >Medical profession railing against chiropractic treatment as something >harmful to our patients health. . . . . and we all know that wasn't true, >don't we. > >Yours in Health, > > J. Vissers, DC > > >Original Message: >----------------- >From: Dr. Willard Bertrand, D.C. mail@... >Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:54:14 -0700 > >Subject: RE: Alternare > > >I did not target you specifically, Dr. Coby. I am simply continuing to spear >points against the proposed fee limiting regulations. > >Thanks for keeping me on base! > >Willard Bertrand, D.C. > > Alternare >I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer >called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one >of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, >chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar >with them? > > Anglen > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > > >OregonDCs rules: >1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to >foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve >members will be tolerated. >2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. >3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, >it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or >otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or >her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Willard, Just call the board office and ask our staff for the polycom number. I posted it last week, but don't have it just now. I want to make sure you get the right number. I'm not sure if the number stays the same. They can give you the procedure for calling in. The line is open at a certain time for each meeting. You lost me about your last comment ,"after a drive like that I would expect to talk for several hours, which I am certain would be atypical for even a board member." Do you mean atypical to drive from so far to reach the meeting? Or atypical to talk for several hours? Both are typical of the volunteers. Minga Guerrero DC In a message dated 5/17/2004 10:03:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, mail@... writes: Hi Dr. Minga: Please what is the polycom line number? I will be happy to participate via this method. I would have to drive 12 hours to participate otherwise. After a drive like that I would expect to talk for several hours, which I am certain would be atypical for even a board member. The phone participation is perfect for this common situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Dr. Minga: Please what is the polycom line number? I will be happy to participate via this method. I would have to drive 12 hours to participate otherwise. After a drive like that I would expect to talk for several hours, which I am certain would be atypical for even a board member. The phone participation is perfect for this common situation. Willard Bertrand, D.C. Re: Alternare , Yes, you are correct. The idea of a new rule for excess treatment/ fees, is not generated by the OBCE. When the public comes to us, we are obligated to respond. The public includes chiropractors. We often get suggestions from DC's in the field. In addition to hundreds of pages of complaints, staff reports, new doctor orientation development, budget reports, private investigative reports, licensing change reports, CA reports, legislative reports, each agenda has something suggested from the field that we are obligated to discuss and consider. I use the word obligation not as a negative. Just a fact. We put it on the agenda and either send it to committee within the board (peer review, rules advisory etc) or send a letter back to the doctor suggesting where he or she might find help. I hope this helps those reading understand how the OBCE works. As a member, I'm working to bring the concerns you send me via this listserv, such as the suggested changes to the new doc orientation (Joe Medlin's baby). In addition, I took several docs posted concerns (with their permission), to the rules advisory meeting. Because of your suggestions, there was a general agreement that any of these new rules should pertain to 3rd party payment only. (However, you should know that most of the committee felt this was a good idea already.) New research, cash practices, wellness care and contracted special service fees with patients are being discussed as exempt. The committee is looking at ways to use specific language to deal with that. We need your help immediately on that. IT's not as easy as it sounds. We have to say it in a way that doesn't imply unequal fee schedules. Anyone able to come to a meeting for input to help us is appreciated. There is also a poly com line you can dial in on to participate remotely if you can't drive to Salem. If nothing else, simply email directly to me including a note of permission for me to copy your email. I'll take it and present it as best I can. The next meeting is tenatively scheduled for July 8th. Please be patient and understand that the job is pretty time consuming. We are all volunteers running a practice as well. It would be appreciated by me if you could give constructive suggestions without general, blanket statements referring to the " OBCE " as some organization trying to ruin the profession. Thanks, Minga Guerrero DC OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Dr. Ray. Maybe we should put in a rule to limit insufficient fees. They seem to be damaging our profession more than anything in the excessive arena. Say Dr. Ray I give a complete physical for $78 includes a proctoscope and the rest. Willard Bertrand, D.C. RE: Alternare Excuse me please, but when was the last time anyone got paid $150 for an adjustment? There are already limits on what 3rd parties will pay for CPT 98940 through 9894-whatever. And now PIP has the WC fee schedule to limit what one can charge anyway. So why the big freakin' fuss over this issue? I had my annual visit to my urologist 2 weeks ago. The nice man chatted with me for 3 minutes, bent me over and stuck his finger up my rectum and told me " everything looked OK " , to which I asked, how would he know if " everything LOOKED OK " unless he had eyes on the end of that digit. He laughed and corrected his verbage. The bill for this enlightening little tickle? $289.96. It gives one perspective as to the " value " of your time. Something to think about. Perhaps you SHOULD be charging more? Ray DC OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 THE CAO REQUESTED AN EXCESSIVE FEE RULE!?!? Would any current Board member care to respond to this? I would have to see a copy of minutes from the initial meeting when the " excessive fee rule " discussion began. Perhaps these could be published. I certainly hope this excessive fee rule debate doesn't turn out to be the " tail wagging the dog. " We have enough division and distraction within the profession without ANY one group going off half-cocked to conduct a moral crusade through influence of the Board. Something like this (if true...) would not only reflect badly on the profession and the State organizations, it would reveal our Board to be inept, compromised (i,e., corruptible) and of questionable efficacy in protecting the citizens of Oregon. In other words, if a handful of chiropractors can unilaterally set policy for the entire profession, and therefore the citizens of Oregon, without these groups being directly involved, than the Boards ability to " protect " the public (ESPECIALLY FROM THOSE CHIROPRACTORS) comes under question. Anybody want to buy a chiropractic (whatever that means anymore) practice...? M. s, D.C. M. s, D.C. Alternare > & gt;I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed > care/insurer > & gt;called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were > one > & gt;of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, > & gt;chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you > familiar > & gt;with them? > & gt; > & gt; Anglen > & gt; > & gt;OregonDCs rules: > & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > & gt;members will be tolerated. > & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, > & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;--- > & gt;Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;OregonDCs rules: > & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > & gt;members will be tolerated. > & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, > & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;OregonDCs rules: > & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > & gt;members will be tolerated. > & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, > & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;--- > & gt;Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > & gt; > & gt;--- > & gt;Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > & gt;Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > & gt;Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 > & gt; > & gt; > & gt;OregonDCs rules: > & gt;1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to > & gt;foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve > & gt;members will be tolerated. > & gt;2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. > & gt;3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. > However, > & gt;it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > & gt;otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > & gt;her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; > & gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 imho, it is not the role of the OBCE to create a rule regarding excessive fees—or minimal fees, either. Fee rules are legal if promulgated under contracts between providers and insurers, as in HMOs and other managed care organizations, or mandated by law as in workers' compensation or PIP. It is otherwise up to the payer (the patient or third party) to determine if the fees charged are within the usual and customary range for the geographic area, and to dispute the fees if they exceed this range. The discussion about the proposed excess treatment rule is a separate issue from excessive fees. J. Burke, D.C. Sent by Medscape Mail: Free Portable E-mail for Professionals on the Move http://www.medscape.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Geeze , why don't you tell us how you really feel! Actually, I very much appreciate your candid approach and agree with much of what you say. Vern is convinced that this will make us look good in the eyes of the legislature and the insurance companies and that they will be gracious enough to spare us the limitations and caps seen in other states. Hog Wash! The insurance companies will continue to try to limit utilization and reimbursement, just as any other business tries to eliminate overhead in order to increase their profit margin. Vern is very dedicated to this profession, I know because I served on the CAO executive board with him. However, the CAO would have much greater participation if it were to refocus on improving the self-esteem of Oregon chiropractors, bring doctors together and facilitating healthy discussions. You cannot legislate morality! However, you can improve the collective consciousness of the entire group, so that the chances of individual chiropractors making bad choices becomes much more remote. DR. COBY L. HANES 991 NE THIRD STREET PRINEVILLE, OR 97754 voice: 541.447.7230 fax: 541.447.5775 dochanes@... Re: Re: Alternare Doesn't this in turn suggest to the Legislature, State, and Insurance authorities (what IS an " insurance authority " anyway...?) that we HAVEN'T " been willing to police ourselves " all these pervious years!!! Remember, insurance made a 42% profit as an industry last year. Medicine is a 1 trillion dollar a year BUSINESS, 14% of our GNP, kills 783,000 people, and charges 282 billion dollars in UNNECESSARY services each year. SAIF has billions in reserve, has been paying Goldschmidt (who ADMITS to having sex with a 14 yo girl) $25,000 a month for over 10 years, and is about to be dissolved by Kulongoski who is going to spend the money. State Farm and Farmers (among others) have been found guilty of FRAUD in claims management and car repairs, and they continue to implement new, illegal scams once their current scam is uncovered (i.e., Colossus). Yet, in the face of all of this, we SOMEHOW see OURSELVES as the sex offenders...the overcharges...the over utilizers...and the insurance defrauders. I'm sorry, but I think we have a SICK group of Chiropractors here in Oregon (by sick I mean not physically, emotionally or spiritually well) and a CERTAIN group of these wants to continually flog the profession over their own (personal and professional) feelings of inferiority, powerlessness and ineptitude. I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying into the message that Chiropractic is The Evil Empire. Are we perfect? No. Do we have problems? Yes! As I see it, our problems are of: UNDER UTILIZATION, UNDER COMPENSATION, OVER PERSECUTION, PREJUDICES, ANTI-TRADE VIOLATION, RACKETEERING, AND SLANDER!!! M. s, D.C. Re: Re: Alternare > > > imho, it is not the role of the OBCE to create a rule regarding > excessive fees-or minimal fees, either. Fee rules are legal if > promulgated under contracts between providers and > insurers, as in HMOs and other managed care organizations, or mandated by > law as in > workers' compensation or PIP. It is otherwise up to the payer (the patient > or third party) to > determine if the fees charged are within the usual and customary range for > the geographic > area, and to dispute the fees if they exceed this range. The discussion > about the proposed > excess treatment rule is a separate issue from excessive fees. > > J. Burke, D.C. > > Sent by Medscape Mail: Free Portable E-mail for Professionals on the > Move http://www.medscape.com > > > OregonDCs rules: > 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is > to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on > listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with > your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail > could end up anywhere. However, > it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or > otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without > his or > her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. > Groups Links > > > > > OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Dr. s: Most EXCELLANT POST!!! J. Pedersen DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Dear Dr. Vissers: I do not think that $150 is an excessive charge for an adjustment -- now, you apparently do. This is exactly the problem. How can you objectively prove that that $150 is an excessive fee? If I were to charge that fee for an adjustment to a cash patient then that is between myself and the patient, not the OBCE or the State of Oregon. IF I were to charge that to an auto insurance then they would probably limit my fee to customary fees. I would have the choice to go to court where all would be decided by a judge or jury, at little or no cost to the OBCE. Seems simple enough. OBCE steps in with fee restrictions at considerable expense ($5000 for the defending chiropractor's legal fees for a lawyer with NO FEE RESTRICTIONS + OBCE legal fees from limited resources). Figure the adjustment fee of $150 goes to pay for an education (with 3 board certifications) that costs over $150,000, plus my house that is about $300,000 plus my car at $30,000 and my 7 kids, 3 of whom are in college to the tune of $75,000 per year. And then there are incidentals like paying $5000 annually for the lawyers to protect me from government and insurance intrusions into my freedom to practice, and so on. You can see that it all adds up quickly. Would these be satisfactory criteria to set my fees? I bet not. It " should " be set up based upon what committee thought an Oregon chirorpactor deserved, since I am after all, only worth $50, even if someone is willing to cost me over $5000 to defend my fee. It seems like something that is so expensive to defend should be worth more than the price of its defense. So I think that $5000 per adjustment might be actually closer to a fee worth the trouble of defending it. As an additional example of this dilemma: what is the economic value of Yellowstone National Park? Is it just worth the value of the real estate? How about the value of replacing it with another park? How about the value of the feeling it gives you to just know that Yellowstone will be available for a future vacation? What about the value of the lost mineral and oil reserves? How about the political value for the opponent of the Presidential candidate who says they want to close it? As you can see setting fees should always be left to the market, since governments and even economists are usually poor at judging the value of services or goods. Last I looked, the OBCE was part of the government. Governments should set policies, not fees. Show me a government in history that permanently set the fees for its electorate and I will show you the history of a government in decline. Your intentions are good, but the results will be harmful to free enterprise. The end will not justify the means. It will only serve to embarrass the profession in a new way. Sincerely and respectfully, Willard Bertrand, D.C. Alternare I recently recieved an invitation to join some sort of managed care/insurer called ALTERNARE. They just started here in Arizona, but said they were one of the largest insurers in Washington and Oregon. They cover massage, chiropractic, acupuncture, nutritional counseling. Are any of you familiar with them? Anglen OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.681 / Virus Database: 443 - Release Date: 5/10/2004 OregonDCs rules: 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated. 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name. 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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