residual sugar in kombucha

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know whether there is residual sucrose in kombucha, or if the

kombucha pre-digests most or all of the sucrose into glucose and fructose?

I make my kombucha strong enough that it doesn't taste sweet at all, but it

is not so strong I can't drink it straight and like it.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Here's some info from:

http://w3.trib.com/~kombu/FAQ/part06.html

Sucrose 0.22 g

Glucose 0.78 g

Fructose 0.65 g

Total Amount Sugar 1.65 g

Unfortunately, they don't give the ending pH of the KT or the starting

amount and type of sugar, so it's not too helpful.

residual sugar in kombucha

> Does anyone know whether there is residual sucrose in kombucha, or if the

> kombucha pre-digests most or all of the sucrose into glucose and fructose?

>

> I make my kombucha strong enough that it doesn't taste sweet at all, but

it

> is not so strong I can't drink it straight and like it.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chris-

I've read that even the strongest kombucha has 3% of the sucrose

left. That may not sound like a lot, but it can add up to a lot of grams

of sugar.

>Does anyone know whether there is residual sucrose in kombucha, or if the

>kombucha pre-digests most or all of the sucrose into glucose and fructose?

-

[Guest guest]

I have wondered the same thing. I have no idea. I have been thinking of

trying Atkins again and wonder if Konbucha can be Atkins legal. I would

sure miss it .

Irene

At 04:51 AM 7/22/03, you wrote:

>Does anyone know whether there is residual sucrose in kombucha, or if the

>kombucha pre-digests most or all of the sucrose into glucose and fructose?

>

>I make my kombucha strong enough that it doesn't taste sweet at all, but it

>is not so strong I can't drink it straight and like it.

>

>Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 11:02:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Idol@... writes:

> I've read that even the strongest kombucha has 3% of the sucrose

> left. That may not sound like a lot, but it can add up to a lot of grams

> of sugar.

Do you know where you read it? So that 3% includes only sucrose, and not any

residual sugars that have been broken down into their monomers?

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 10:56:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, irene@...

writes:

> I have wondered the same thing. I have no idea. I have been thinking of

> trying Atkins again and wonder if Konbucha can be Atkins legal. I would

> sure miss it .

Anything could be Atkins-legal if you don't have too much of it, as far as I

understand. If it has a few grams of sugar per glass, you could have a glass

of day and still have 3/4 of your allowance even on the <20g part.

I've got some gut issues right now though and am trying to avoid sucrose.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 9:24:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, paul@...

writes:

> Sucrose 0.22 g

> Glucose 0.78 g

> Fructose 0.65 g

> Total Amount Sugar 1.65 g

Thanks ,

That's good to know that most of the sucrose is broken down, but

unfortunately that's a heck of a lot of sugar for one ounce!

I wish it could be made with raw honey :-/

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/03 4:13:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul@...

writes:

> They say the longer it goes - maybe 10 - 15 days, the more beneficial it

> is.

> (more acids, less sugars) The pH is supposed to be around 3, I think, for

> best health benefits. You could let it ferment until it gets closer to

> vinegar, then add some raw honey (after taking the SCOBY out) to take the

> edge off.

>

Hmm... that's an idea. Do you think the honey would harm the bacteria/yeast

in the drink?

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> That's good to know that most of the sucrose is broken down, but

> unfortunately that's a heck of a lot of sugar for one ounce!

>

They say the longer it goes - maybe 10 - 15 days, the more beneficial it is.

(more acids, less sugars) The pH is supposed to be around 3, I think, for

best health benefits. You could let it ferment until it gets closer to

vinegar, then add some raw honey (after taking the SCOBY out) to take the

edge off.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

I read it on a huge kombucha page, but I don't remember which one, and I

couldn't tell you whether it's true or not.

I can tell you, though, that kombucha stopped me from losing weight, so I

stopped drinking (and making) it.

>Do you know where you read it? So that 3% includes only sucrose, and not any

>residual sugars that have been broken down into their monomers?

-

[Guest guest]

> Hmm... that's an idea. Do you think the honey would harm the

> bacteria/yeast

> in the drink?

>

Isn't the bacteria/yeast primarily in the scoby, and the drink contains

mostly acids (glucuronic, lactic, acetic acids)? I think that is the primary

benefit of the drink. Whether or not raw honey affects that, I have no idea.

-

[Guest guest]

> Hmm... that's an idea. Do you think the honey would harm the

> bacteria/yeast

> in the drink?

>

>>>>Isn't the bacteria/yeast primarily in the scoby, and the drink contains

mostly acids (glucuronic, lactic, acetic acids)?

----->the thick sturdy cream-colored mat on top is called a " zoogleal mat "

and is made primarily of cellulose that the yeasts/bacteria create via

fermenation. i've read that they store nutrients or something there. i think

the bacteria yeasts are in the thinner jelly-fish looking " mushroom " as well

as in the liquid. maybe also in the zoogleal mat? i don't know.

at least one lab assay i read showed the sample only had trace amounts of

glucoronic acid (or none, don't remember). but i bet the various acid

contents would vary from batch to batch.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>

> ----->the thick sturdy cream-colored mat on top is called a " zoogleal mat "

> and is made primarily of cellulose that the yeasts/bacteria create via

> fermenation. i've read that they store nutrients or something there. i

think

> the bacteria yeasts are in the thinner jelly-fish looking " mushroom " as

well

> as in the liquid. maybe also in the zoogleal mat? i don't know.

The zoogleal mat has other names, but they are all the same thing a.k.a.

fungus, mushroom, SCOBY -Symbiotic Culture of Bacteria and Yeast

> at least one lab assay i read showed the sample only had trace amounts of

> glucoronic acid (or none, don't remember). but i bet the various acid

> contents would vary from batch to batch.

>

Yes, aparently one researcher (M Roussin) disagrees with what everyone else

has found. see below

-

***Here's some info from the kombucha list (it's a long one):***

You questioned my recording in my Kombucha report, the presence of

glucuronic acid in Kombucha, your citing the analysis of Roussin to

the contrary.

I can comment as follows:

The primary forum for this debate appears to have been the contributions of

Blanc (Blanc P, Research on tea fungus. Post to the Kombucha Discussion

List, Nov 9, 1995)(a draft of the published research article referenced

below) and Roussin (Roussin M, Out on the kombucha range. Post to the

Kombucha Discussion List, May 6, 1996).

Seeing as several researchers have reported detection of glucuronic acid in

Kombucha and only one dissents, I tend to retain the position of the others,

in particular where their work has been peer reviewed prior to scientific

publication (Blanc P, " Characterisation Of The Tea Fungus Metabolites " ,

Biotechnology Letters, 18 (3), 1995), rather than mere internet publishing

(Roussin M, Analysies of Kombucha Ferments: Report on Growers. Salt Lake

City, UT: Information Resources, LC, 1996).

I am further persuaded by the observations and remarks of Norbert Hoffmann,

in his " Ubiquitous Co-Enzyme UDP-Glucuronic Acid: Detoxifying Agent in

Kombucha Tea? " , where he writes:

" Glucuronic acid is considered by many to be one of the important key

components found in Kombucha Tea because of its detoxifying action. It is

widely distributed in plants (green tea?). The related compound,

UDPGlucuronic acid which is the active or co-enzyme form of Glucuronic acid,

has been discovered in several non-Kombucha bacteria by at least eight

scientists (Dutton, G. Glucuronidation of drugs and other compounds.CRC

Press. Boca Raton. 1980). Since metabolic processes in related organisms are

generally similar, it can, therefore, be expected that UDP-Glucuronic acid

is also present in the Kombucha bacteria. "

" Glucuronic acid has been found in Kombucha Tea by several researchers in

the past, while more recent research conducted by a lab commissioned by

Roussin was not able to substantiate earlier findings. This

unexpected outcome led me to take a closer look at the Glucuronic acid

pathway and the compounds involved. I made several interesting discoveries:

* According to a post on the internet, a lab commissioned by

Roussin found Saccharic-acid-1,4 lactone, which is also called

d-Glucaro-1,4-lactone or Saccharolactone. d-Glucaro-y-lactone is actually

part of the Glucuronic acid pathway. It is a derivative of

d-Glucurono-y-lactone which in turn comes from UDP-Glucuronic acid or

Glucuronic acid depending on which way you go around the pathway circle.

* Roussin's post lists another compound, Saccharic acid, also

called Glucaric acid. A related chemical, it is derived via intermediate

steps from UDP-Glucuronic acid and represents the end-product of one of the

" side arms " of the Glucuronic acid pathway.

* The compound directly involved in detoxification is UDP-Glucuronic

acid and not Glucuronic acid. It is synthesized from UDP-glucose, the active

form of glucose. UDP-Glucuronic acid can therefore be considered the active

or co-enzyme form of Glucuronic acid.

* The synthesis of Ascorbic acid represents another " side arm " of the

Glucuronic acid pathway branching off from Glucuronic acid followed by

several additional steps before the end product, Ascorbic acid, is reached. "

" The various compounds found by different researchers are all part of the

same pathway. Generally, presence of one of the compounds can be taken as

indication that the other compounds will be present also. For example,

presence of Saccharic acid (Glucaric acid) would indicate that

Saccharolactone (Glucaro-lactone); Glucurono-lactone and UDP-Glucuronic acid

are most likely also present. "

" The findings published by Roussin, however, cannot be considered

conclusive for the entire Kombucha culture. UDP-Glucuronic acid is an

intermediate metabolite and as such should under normal circumstances not be

present outside of bacterial cells. Generally, only end products of an

incomplete oxidation are found in solution, for example alcohol, vinegar,

and a number of organic acids. Breaking down (lysing) the microorganisms and

possibly using a centrifuge for component separation before performing

analytical tests could show the presence of Glucuronic or UDP-Glucuronic

acid inside of bacteria. Several considerations offer an excellent

explanation why some scientists - depending on differences in conditions -

have found Glucuronic acid while others have not. "

A few thoughts of my own: Greenwalt C, et al, in " Determination and

characterisation of the anti-microbial activity of the fermented tea

Kombucha " describe Roussin's Kombuchas as " fermented sweetened 'black' tea " ,

as oppose to 'green' tea. I personally don't consider the ferment made with

any other than green tea to be Kombucha. I suspect that there may be

fundamental differences between the ferments made with oxidised, partly

oxidised and non-oxidised Camelia teas, besides any of several deviations

from authentic purist traditional Kombucha, in particular aspects affecting

the ecology of the Kombucha, including the possibility of pasteurisation.

Roussin himself states on his website that: " the author does not represent

that any (kombucha) sample taken from the public at large will provide an

equivalent analysis " . I furthermore suspect that Kombucha might liberate

Glucoronic and or UDP- Glucuronic acid in the intestines. By way of

comfirmation of this possibility, Dutton states that: " the biosynthesis of

the simple conjugates of Glucuronic acid was shown to occur, somewhat

ironically, ... by glucuronyl transference from an 'active' form, UDP

(uridine diphosphate)-Glucuronic acid, and (it was) demonstrated that this

nucleotide was derived, in animals, not from glucuronate, but from glucose

by way of UDP-glucose " (Dutton G. Ed. Glucuronic acid, free and combined:

chemistry, biochemistry, pharmocology, and medicine. Academic Press. New

York. 1966)

Hoffman elaborates that: " the enzyme, Glucuronidase, can break conjugated

glucuronides apart to free hormones and other chemicals where they are

needed. It is controlled by Saccharolactone, which can inhibit its action.

Naturally occurring bacteria in the intestines use this enzyme to break down

some of the glucuronides into its components, allowing reabsorption of

Glucuronic acid and the conjugated substance (toxin or drug) provided it is

lipid soluble, through the intestinal walls. "

" Enzymes very specific to the individual compounds being acted upon catalyze

each one of the many steps involved in biosynthesis. While most of the

enzymes are found inside of microorganism cells, some of them may also be

found outside. Among them are the ones required to break down food

molecules, for example sugar or amino acids. This may actually represent

enzymes excreted by the Kombucha microorganisms in order to cleave the sugar

into its simpler components which then can enter the cell walls. "

" Schlegel, 1985, said that large quantities of intermediate compounds found

in solutions actually represent an over-production by yeasts caused by the

availability of excessive quantities of carbohydrates and frequently by

insufficient amounts of trace elements. This condition leads to a

disorganization of the metabolism and a backing up of these intermediates. I

assume that this also applies to bacteria and may explain the presence of

some of the compounds that have been found in Kombucha Tea. " (Hoffmann N,

The Ubiquitous Co-Enzyme UDP-Glucuronic Acid: Detoxifying Agent in Kombucha

Tea?)

In light of the above, I believe that it is prudent to distrust the motives

and methodology of Roussin. You need only read the copyright

warnings on Roussin's website to see that he is mischievous in his Kombucha

research activities.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/23/03 8:42:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> >>>>Isn't the bacteria/yeast primarily in the scoby, and the drink contains

> mostly acids (glucuronic, lactic, acetic acids)?

>

If you leave the drink at room temp it regrows the scoby on top, so it must

be cultured itself.

chris

[Guest guest]

I didn't find that big long post convincing... it seemed to be that the

research indicated there *was* no glucoronic acid in kombucha, since it is only

in

the cells of the bacteria/yeasts.

I wonder if the kombucha they tested was fitlered. Mine gets all these

strands that hang from the scoby left in it, that would get taken out in

filtering.

I wonder if those strains are actually bacteria/yeasts, or some other

product (that contains g acid?) of them that would be taken out in filtering...

or

even straining.

But since if you leave it at room temp, it regrows a " zogleal mat " there

*must* be some bacteria/yeasts in it, which would mean there was some glucoronic

acid.

chris

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Braun " <paul@a...>

wrote:

> > Hmm... that's an idea. Do you think the honey would harm the

> > bacteria/yeast

> > in the drink?

> >

>

i just got my mother and made my first batch of this stuff, not even

done yet i don't think. but i went about reading a bunch of web

pages, too many to recall. but one said something about using

honey. it said that at first you could use it but after time, it's

natural anti-fungal? characterisitics would cause the culture harm.

it wasn't specific about it, just that in the short term it was ok

but long term it was not.

[Guest guest]

I think they were talking about adding it to your drink after decanting it, not

brewing with the honey.

Re: residual sugar in kombucha

--- In , " Braun " <paul@a...>

wrote:

> > Hmm... that's an idea. Do you think the honey would harm the

> > bacteria/yeast

> > in the drink?

> >

>

i just got my mother and made my first batch of this stuff, not even

done yet i don't think. but i went about reading a bunch of web

pages, too many to recall. but one said something about using

honey. it said that at first you could use it but after time, it's

natural anti-fungal? characterisitics would cause the culture harm.

it wasn't specific about it, just that in the short term it was ok

but long term it was not.

[Guest guest]

> I didn't find that big long post convincing... it seemed to be that the

> research indicated there *was* no glucoronic acid in kombucha, since it is

only in

> the cells of the bacteria/yeasts.

I won't pretend to understand the long post - but I'd agree - they didn't

find the actual g-acid, but many other building blocks that could eventually

make the g-acid? I think I've read before that only the liver can make

g-acid, and it uses _whatever_ is in the KT to make it.

p.s.

and this just in from the KT list...

******original question****

> I was just wondering if anyone knows of any conclusive tests that have

been

> done to determine whether or not glucuronic and usnic acids are actually

> present in kombucha. > Thanks Much!

******reply*******

In 1995 and 1996, we look at 1,103 samples from all over North America

and a couple from Europe using HPLC, MS, and PDAD with a variety of

reverse-phase, cation and size exclusion columns and we did not find

glucuronic acid or usnic acid and any of the ferments we studied. We found

that 2-keto-gluconic acid is most likely the item that had been previously

reported as glucuronic acid and very strong evidence of the presence of

sacharic acid 1-4 lactone, which is a powerful glucuronidase inhibitor. We

believe that is the reason for increased glucuronides in the urine of

Kombucha drinkers.

Hope that helps.

Mike Roussin

mike@...

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/23/03 3:34:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

bchbmnsgrbr@... writes:

> just got my mother and made my first batch of this stuff, not even

> done yet i don't think. but i went about reading a bunch of web

> pages, too many to recall. but one said something about using

> honey. it said that at first you could use it but after time, it's

> natural anti-fungal? characterisitics would cause the culture harm.

> it wasn't specific about it, just that in the short term it was ok

> but long term it was not.

hmm... my understanding is that kombucha is not a fungus and doesn't have any

fungi in it.

but honey is supposed to be anti-microbial in general. according to

Eisenstein, you can make lacto-fermented drinks with honey, but it takes

months instead of days.

Chris