Re: Re: Invasive Breast Cancer-Epileptics

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/19/03 8:52:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jafasum@... writes:

> Ketogenic diets work very well for a large portion of epileptics, also.

> Most are able to get off of their medications. There is quite a bit written

up

> on this on the web.

And if you search medline too. When I did a search for " ketogenic diet "

almost everything that came up was on epilepsy, so I narrowed it down by adding

" cancer " into it.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/19/03 10:17:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ---->why? is there some connection between carb consumption, or *grain*

> consumption and epilepsy?

It appears no one really knows. It has to do with detailed brain chemistry.

It has different effectiveness with different people and different types of

epilepsy, but a large majority improve and one study found around 30% had >90%

improvement. In some people it appears it might have to do with a defect in

transporting glucose to the brain, so ketones can replace the defectively

transported glucose. There are more details that even the neuroscientists don't

pretend to understand having to do with chemical imbalances int he brain and the

way metabolic byproducts and whatnot effect them.

Ketogenic diets are considered comparable to anti-eplieptic drugs, and one

study found that while calorie restriction in itself could be anti-convulsant,

ketogenic calorie-restricted diet was more effective and not only

anti-convulsant, but " anti-epileptogenic. " I'm not sure what that means unless

it means

ketogenic diets can *prevent* epilepsy. Not sure how they tested that? Maybe

administered to people identified as genetically predisposed before they

developed it?

Dunno, anyway, if you could get your hands on the full-text of the below

article, it woudl probably best answer your question.

Chris

Nutr Neurosci. 2003 Apr;6(2):67-79. <A

HREF= " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed & cmd=Display & dopt=p\

ubmed_pubmed & from_uid=12722982 " >Related Articles,</A> >Links</A>

The ketogenic diet for the treatment of epilepsy: a challenge for nutritional

neuroscientists.

Stafstrom CE, Bough KJ.

Department of Neurology and the Neuroscience Training Program, University of

Wisconsin, Madison, WI 53792, USA.

The ketogenic diet (KD) is a high-fat, low-carbohydrate, adequate-protein

diet that has been used for more than eight decades for the treatment of

refractory epilepsy in children. Despite this long history, the mechanisms by

which

the KD exerts its anti-seizure action are not fully understood. Questions remain

regarding several aspects of KD action, including its effects on brain

biochemistry and energetics, neuronal membrane function and cellular network

behavior. With the explosion of the KD use in the last 10 years, it is now

imperative

that we understand these factors in greater detail, in order to optimize the

formulation, administration and fine-tuning of the diet. This review discusses

what is known and what remains to be learned about the KD, with emphasis on

clinical questions that can be approached in the laboratory. We encourage

scientists with a primary interest in nutritional neuroscience to join with

those

of us in the epilepsy research community to address these urgent questions, for

the benefit of children ravaged by intractable seizures.

[Guest guest]

Ketogenic diets work very well for a large portion of epileptics, also. Most

are able to get off of their medications. There is quite a bit written up on

this on the web.

Jafa

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

Also worth looking into the following:

" There have allso been reports in the peer-reviewed literature of cancer

patients in the grips of apparently hopelessly fatal cancers who have

experienced

dramatic improvements and recoveries on a ketogenic diet. This diet provides

energy through fats, not carbohydrates. Although this is a much stricter,

more difficult diet to follow, it starves the cancer cells of the glucose they

need to reproduce. It is the relentless reproduction of cancer cells and their

displacement of healthy ones that is cancer's greatest threat. By slowing or

halting this reproduction, the ketogenic diet allows the immune system a

window of opportunity to battle these aberrant cells. "

--Dangerous Grains, p 108, Brady MD and Hoggan, MA

In a message dated 7/18/03 11:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

toyotaokiec@... writes:

>

> >OK. I know the vegan recommendation for the above is a raw vegan

> diet. But

> >what do NT'ers suggest. I have read the article on WAP already.

> Anything else?

> >My aunt was just diagnosed with invasive breast cancer today.

> >

> >Marcella

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> Ketogenic diets work very well for a large portion of epileptics, also.

> Most are able to get off of their medications. There is quite a bit

written up

> on this on the web.

>>And if you search medline too. When I did a search for " ketogenic diet "

almost everything that came up was on epilepsy, so I narrowed it down by

adding

" cancer " into it.

---->why? is there some connection between carb consumption, or *grain*

consumption and epilepsy?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>---->why? is there some connection between carb consumption, or *grain*

>consumption and epilepsy?

>

>Suze Fisher

It's an open question. So far it has been assumed it is carb consumption,

but no one really knows why it works. Celiac is decidedly associated

with seizures though, so it could be just that there are two different

modes of inquiry. No one in this country tests epileptic kids for

gluten intolerance. They seem to do that testing in Europe though:

one member of the celiac group passed out on the stairs to a cathedral

and was immediately blood-tested for celiac -- that's how she found out

she had it!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>>> In some people it appears it might have to do with a defect in

transporting glucose to the brain, so ketones can replace the defectively

transported glucose.

------->hmmm...i was under the impression that the brain can use ONLY

glucose as fuel. which, if true, in a ketogenic diet, would have to come

from gluconeogenic amino acids, i'd imagine.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/20/03 3:24:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> It's an open question. So far it has been assumed it is carb consumption,

> but no one really knows why it works. Celiac is decidedly associated

> with seizures though, so it could be just that there are two different

> modes of inquiry. No one in this country tests epileptic kids for

> gluten intolerance. They seem to do that testing in Europe though:

> one member of the celiac group passed out on the stairs to a cathedral

> and was immediately blood-tested for celiac -- that's how she found out

> she had it!

>

Oh there's probably definitely something intestinal going on, and since the

neuroscientists admit they have simply no clue at all, it's all the more

likely.

" There have been many babies with chronic diarrhea accompanied by epileptic

seizures. One baby was on commercial formula and was eating some solid foods.

When his diet was changed to the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, both diarrhea

and the epileptic seizures cleared up. He continues to do well siz years later.

Another baby with seizures was being breastfed and was also eating cereal.

The mother went on the SCD, the baby was allowed only those foods on the diet,

and the epilepsy disappeared. He has been free of seizures for five years. "

--Gotschall, BVC, p41

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/20/03 8:58:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ------->hmmm...i was under the impression that the brain can use ONLY

> glucose as fuel. which, if true, in a ketogenic diet, would have to come

> from gluconeogenic amino acids, i'd imagine.

I was under that impression too, but it's clearly wrong. There's no such

thing as a ketogenic diet where glucose is the fuel-- that would be a glucogenic

diet.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Suze,

>>---->why? is there some connection between carb consumption, or *grain*

>>consumption and epilepsy?

Dangerous Grains pg. 153 Epilepsy

Published reports of food allergy induced seizures go all the way back to

1914.

Although there were a few reports of the causative relationship between celiac

disease and epilepsy prior to the late 1980's, the connection has received

increasing attention over the last 15 years or so. Celiac associated epilepsy

has been reported to occur in connection with migraine headaches,

hyperactivity, calcium deposits in the brain and in cases of blood vessel

abnormalities in the brain. Celiac disease is now well recognized as a factor

in most cases of epilepsy where calcium deposits are found in certain regions

of the brain.

Theorizing from other bits malabsorption, leaky gut, magnesium deficiency

(induced by gluten sensitivity, proven effective in reducing epileptic

seizures) and phytates would be involved. The 11% reduction in human brain

size

(think thats from Biochemical Individuality) since the introduction of

agriculture. Ketogenic diet study makes total sense here to me in that it

eliminates gluten and gives the good fats that will feed the brain just like

the hunter- gatherer diet.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Wanita,

That's a very good point. Any grain or starch will contribute to magnesium

deficiency regardless of gluten, because excessive insulin causes magnesium

deficiency. See Ron Rosedale's lecture on insulin on Mercola's site for more

info. If you do a search for " ron rosedale insulin " you'll find it. I believe

it's called " Insulin and its metabolic effects. "

So I think the results of the ketogenic diet are broader than gluten in that

they basically eliminate starch from the diet, and and any carbs in the diet

are, vis-a-vis insulin anyway, buffered by the large amount of fat.

Chris

In a message dated 7/20/03 10:31:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Theorizing from other bits malabsorption, leaky gut, magnesium deficiency

> (induced by gluten sensitivity, proven effective in reducing epileptic

> seizures) and phytates would be involved. The 11% reduction in human brain

> size

> (think thats from Biochemical Individuality) since the introduction of

> agriculture. Ketogenic diet study makes total sense here to me in that it

> eliminates gluten and gives the good fats that will feed the brain just like

> the hunter- gatherer diet.

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/20/03 2:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jafasum@... writes:

> I wasn't aware that the ketogenic diet is given mainly to children. And

> that children have the best results with this type of diet. If this is the

> case, it would seem that the digestive issues (ie celiac, etc.) do have a lot

> of merit. But what about adult onset epilepsy? Why is the ketogenic diet not

> as effective? If the person didn't have some sort of brain damage, the

> cause appears to be something else in an adult.

Jafa,

I'm not aware of that either. I didn't read anything in the abstracts I've

read that indicates that, though I did read several that specifically dealt

with childhood epilepsy. The post you responded too was regarding the SCD,

which

is not ketogenic, but is designed to eliminate fermantable carbohydrates

temporarily to allow the intestine to heal.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/20/03 2:36:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ------->so, it's been determined that the amino acids that serve as glucose

> precursors are definitely not the fuel source for the brain on a ketogenic

> diet?

One of the main things they measure in the ketogenic diets are decreases in

glucose levels and increases in ketone levels.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Suze-

IIRC Atkins says that the brain actually prefers ketones to glucose.

>i was under the impression that the brain can use ONLY

>glucose as fuel. which, if true, in a ketogenic diet, would have to come

>from gluconeogenic amino acids, i'd imagine.

-

[Guest guest]

I wasn't aware that the ketogenic diet is given mainly to children. And that

children have the best results with this type of diet. If this is the case, it

would seem that the digestive issues (ie celiac, etc.) do have a lot of merit.

But what about adult onset epilepsy? Why is the ketogenic diet not as

effective? If the person didn't have some sort of brain damage, the cause

appears to be something else in an adult.

Jafa

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

In a message dated 7/20/03 3:24:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> It's an open question. So far it has been assumed it is carb consumption,

> but no one really knows why it works. Celiac is decidedly associated

> with seizures though, so it could be just that there are two different

> modes of inquiry. No one in this country tests epileptic kids for

> gluten intolerance. They seem to do that testing in Europe though:

> one member of the celiac group passed out on the stairs to a cathedral

> and was immediately blood-tested for celiac -- that's how she found out

> she had it!

>

Oh there's probably definitely something intestinal going on, and since the

neuroscientists admit they have simply no clue at all, it's all the more

likely.

" There have been many babies with chronic diarrhea accompanied by epileptic

seizures. One baby was on commercial formula and was eating some solid foods.

When his diet was changed to the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, both diarrhea

and the epileptic seizures cleared up. He continues to do well siz years later.

Another baby with seizures was being breastfed and was also eating cereal.

The mother went on the SCD, the baby was allowed only those foods on the diet,

and the epilepsy disappeared. He has been free of seizures for five years. "

--Gotschall, BVC, p41

[Guest guest]

> ------->hmmm...i was under the impression that the brain can use ONLY

> glucose as fuel. which, if true, in a ketogenic diet, would have to come

> from gluconeogenic amino acids, i'd imagine.

>>>>I was under that impression too, but it's clearly wrong. There's no

such

thing as a ketogenic diet where glucose is the fuel-- that would be a

glucogenic

diet.

------->so, it's been determined that the amino acids that serve as glucose

precursors are definitely not the fuel source for the brain on a ketogenic

diet?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Jafa,

>I wasn't aware that the ketogenic diet is given mainly to children.  And that

children have the best results with this type of diet.  If this is the

case, it

would seem that the digestive issues (ie celiac, etc.)  do have a lot of

merit.  But what about adult onset epilepsy?  Why is the ketogenic diet not as

effective?   If the person didn't have some sort of brain damage, the cause

appears to  be something else in an adult.

This may help. Just read in the Schwarzbein Principle pg. 13.

When insulin levels are kept high too long, the result is a physiology that

promotes excessive body-fat gain, a physiology prone to infections and all the

chronic degenerative diseases of aging: osteoarthritis, different types of

cancer, cholesterol abnormalities, coronary artery disease, less lean body

mass

with excess body fat, high blood pressure, osteoporosis, stroke and Type II

diabetes.

The medical establishment considers these degenerative diseases to be

genetically transmitted. Again, I disagree. Consider the following: Genetic

diseases manifest themselves and are diagnosed in childhood or early

adolescence. Excessive body-fat gain and decreased lean body mass, as well as

the diseases listed above, occur primarily in adults and are usually

manifested

after age thirty.

By the time you are thirty years old, your cells do not utilize sugar as well

as they did when younger; this is cellular aging. But time is not the only

factor that causes cellular aging. What you have eaten and how you have lived

your life will determine the actual age of your cells, and therefore the

health

of your metabolism at any given time. In other words, even though thirty year

olds are the same chronological age, they are different metabolic ages.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>I wasn't aware that the ketogenic diet is given mainly to children. And that

children have the best results with this type of diet. If this is the case, it

would seem that the digestive issues (ie celiac, etc.) do have a lot of merit.

But what about adult onset epilepsy? Why is the ketogenic diet not as

effective? If the person didn't have some sort of brain damage, the cause

appears to be something else in an adult.

>

>Jafa

I'm not sure that it *isn't* used on adults. My guess is that one reason the

kids get it is that the adults force them to, and parents tend to do a lot of

research for their kids. It is really, really hard to stick to a ketogenic diet

-- people crave carbs! Some adults DO get lesions and calcium deposits and all

those other things that have been mentioned, from gluten -- and there could well

be problems from other starch issues -- but in *either* case the docs will

mainly put the person on drugs, not try dietary interventions.