Re: gallbladder stones; was diet advice needed

[Guest guest]

Lynn Siprelle, Editor wrote:

> Here's my

> background on this issue: I not only passed a stone and had my

> gallbladder removed, I'm a professional journalist and researched the

> article I wrote with both allopathic doctors and sources, and doctors

> at the National College of Naturopathic Medicine here in Portland. Even

> the naturopaths agree that at some point when irritation of the

> gallbladder has gotten to a debilitating point the thing has to go,

> there's just not much else that can be done. Believe me, I tried to get

> out of having the surgery and in the end it was the only option.

I find this very hard to believe. I am sure there are herbs and what not

that will cause the stones to break down and/or dissolve to make removal

of gallbladder unnecessary. If I had a problem with this, I would

research this and find a solution, but fortunately, I don't. I don't

mean to belittle your research in any way, Lynn; I just can't accept

this as " all there is " .

I have just read your article

(http://www.newhomemaker.com/health/gallbladder.html) and would like to

comment on it and ask some questions. I hope you take it well

> Even alternative medicine practitioners admit that after a certain point

there's nothing to be done but remove the entire organ.

I would think that what this point differs from a practitioner to

practitioner based on his knowledge, experience, and methods he employs.

You always get an answer based on what the person knows. If you go to a

surgeon with a problem, you are more likely to get a recommendation to

have a surgery than if you went to, say, a chiropractor (this is what

has happened to my dad -- thank god, we distrust mainstream doctors). If

you go to an allopath or even a naturopath who knows nothing about how

to use herbs for healing, you will not get an answer to use an herb or a

combination. A homeopath might have offered you a different effective

remedy. My point is that even if you have gone to both sides, it's still

very easy to miss many opportunities because each person has a limited

knowledge.

> For those of us susceptible to gallbladder problems, the best thing to do is

keep the diet low in saturated fats. Limit animal fats in particular and stick

to nonsaturated vegetable sources of fat, such as olive oil.

Could you explain the mechanism that makes limiting saturated fat and

especially animal fat important for those prone to gallbladder problems?

Would coconut oil (contains much more saturated fatty acids than any

animal fat) be worse than animal fat, according to your research? I

would like to learn the logic behind this recommendation.

Finally, please take a look at

http://www.wholeworldbotanicals.com/herbal_breakstone.html. It's about

an herb called Chanca Piedra that is used " to break up and expel both

kidney stones, and gall stones " , among many other things ( " been prove in

scientific research to have antihepatotoxic, antispasmodic, antiviral,

bactericidal, febrifugal, and hypoglycemic activity " ). If anyone has

hepatitis B and many other problems (too numerous to mention), take a

look at this too.

Roman

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/13/03 8:46:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

editor@... writes:

> All this talk about gallstones, which are after all bile salts and

> cholesterol, has got me thinking about inflammation and cholesterol.

> Does anyone have any info on how cholesterol might be an

> indicator/attempt by the body to heal or protect an inflammatory spot?

Hmm, I don't know about inflammation, but inflammation is never a problem

unless it is an inappropriate immune response, but inflammation itself is the

immune reaction to *fix* a problem. Of course it has its downsides... which is

why pain exists, which is the message to shut off the inflmation (a

self-regulating mechanism that taking painkillers certianly screws up). Anyway,

there

is evidence that cholesterol is anti-endotoxin, so that cholesterol would

indirectly decrease inflammation by doing part of its job for it I guess.

When endotoxins are included in a test tube with purified human serum (no

cholesterol) human serum, HDL cholseterol, and LDL cholesterol, the endotoxin is

gradually neutralized in all but the cholesterol-purified serum, and is

neutralized the fastest with LDL cholesterol.

Do a search for " conference notes " or something similar and you'll find the

reference for this in my notes from the WAPF conference.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/13/03 9:37:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

romeml@... writes:

> But this logic would dictate limiting all fats. However, in your

> article, you specifically recommend to replace *saturated* and *animal*

> fats with plant oils. I curious why.

>

And doesn't CO not require gall bladder processing? I think this is some

folks opinion but there were possible doubts on this list earlier? Don't

remember exactly.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> I find this very hard to believe. I am sure there are herbs and what

> not

> that will cause the stones to break down and/or dissolve to make

> removal

> of gallbladder unnecessary. If I had a problem with this, I would

> research this and find a solution, but fortunately, I don't. I don't

> mean to belittle your research in any way, Lynn; I just can't accept

> this as " all there is " .

I couldn't accept it either, but I had pretty much a whole college of

naturopathic physicians working with me, not just one, and they didn't

have a lot to offer. (I'm lucky enough to have access to a major

naturopathic college teaching clinic.) I think at one point there were

six different people in the room with me--two students, a TCM

practitioner, and three professors/practicing doctors, all pretty much

in agreement. There were things they could do to help the symptoms,

including acupuncture and the herb milk thistle, but nothing that could

really dissolve the stones over any realistic period of time, and we

did keep things down to a dull roar during my second pregnancy because

I didn't want to attempt the surgery then. I'm not saying it's

impossible, I'm saying it's darn near impossible once you get to a

certain point in gallbladder disease. Several people recommended the

infamous " olive oil flush " but from what I was able to ascertain from

the naturopaths and further research, it doesn't work. Yes, you do get

several odd-looking things coming out of your stool, but they're not

gallstones.

> I have just read your article

> (http://www.newhomemaker.com/health/gallbladder.html) and would like to

> comment on it and ask some questions. I hope you take it well

No worries.

>> For those of us susceptible to gallbladder problems, the best thing

>> to do is keep the diet low in saturated fats. Limit animal fats in

>> particular and stick to nonsaturated vegetable sources of fat, such

>> as olive oil.

>

> Could you explain the mechanism that makes limiting saturated fat and

> especially animal fat important for those prone to gallbladder

> problems?

Let me clarify: This advice is for people with active gallbladder

irritation.

> Would coconut oil (contains much more saturated fatty acids than any

> animal fat) be worse than animal fat, according to your research? I

> would like to learn the logic behind this recommendation.

It's a pretty mechanical explanation: Consumption of fats makes the

gallbladder contract to excrete bile into the intestine. That's

normally a good thing. But contraction of the gallbladder is bad if the

gallbladder is full of stones; the contractions can cause the stones to

irritate the gallbladder itself and can force a stone into the bile

duct, causing the aforementioned excruciating pain. In the worst cases,

as with my sister-in-law, the stone can so completely block the duct

that pancreatitis is the result; if it's not taken care of very

quickly, that can be fatal.

> Finally, please take a look at

> http://www.wholeworldbotanicals.com/herbal_breakstone.html. It's about

> an herb called Chanca Piedra that is used " to break up and expel both

> kidney stones, and gall stones " , among many other things

Interesting. Overall, however, I am skeptical of anything that claims

to break up stones to the point where they don't exist; passing even a

small stone is very painful, and " gravel " in the gallbladder can be

just as irritating as regular stones.

All this talk about gallstones, which are after all bile salts and

cholesterol, has got me thinking about inflammation and cholesterol.

Does anyone have any info on how cholesterol might be an

indicator/attempt by the body to heal or protect an inflammatory spot?

Lynn S.

not a know-it-all: I just play one on the web

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

[Guest guest]

Lynne-

What about taking a bile supplement with fats?

>It's a pretty mechanical explanation: Consumption of fats makes the

>gallbladder contract to excrete bile into the intestine. That's

>normally a good thing. But contraction of the gallbladder is bad if the

>gallbladder is full of stones;

-

[Guest guest]

This is what Dr. Jan Kwasniewski, author of so called Optimal Diet (very

high fat), had to say about fat and gallbladder problems --

http://homodiet.netfirms.com/q_a/gallstones.htm.

Roman

[Guest guest]

> What about taking a bile supplement with fats?

>

>> It's a pretty mechanical explanation: Consumption of fats makes the

>> gallbladder contract to excrete bile into the intestine. That's

>> normally a good thing. But contraction of the gallbladder is bad if

>> the

>> gallbladder is full of stones;

It's always worth a shot but it didn't help me. When I said I tried

everything, I mean I tried everything (that we knew about, anyway!).

My problems had been coming on for years by the time I got diagnosed (I

was initially misdiagnosed with panic attack). If something were caught

early enough it's always possible alternative measures could work, I

suppose, but usually by the time you're symptomatic with gallbladder

disease it's gone pretty far.

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

[Guest guest]

Lynn Siprelle, Editor wrote:

> It's a pretty mechanical explanation: Consumption of fats makes the

> gallbladder contract to excrete bile into the intestine. That's

> normally a good thing. But contraction of the gallbladder is bad if the

> gallbladder is full of stones; the contractions can cause the stones to

> irritate the gallbladder itself and can force a stone into the bile

> duct, causing the aforementioned excruciating pain. In the worst cases,

> as with my sister-in-law, the stone can so completely block the duct

> that pancreatitis is the result; if it's not taken care of very

> quickly, that can be fatal.

But this logic would dictate limiting all fats. However, in your

article, you specifically recommend to replace *saturated* and *animal*

fats with plant oils. I curious why.

>>http://www.wholeworldbotanicals.com/herbal_breakstone.html.

> Interesting. Overall, however, I am skeptical of anything that claims

> to break up stones to the point where they don't exist; passing even a

> small stone is very painful, and " gravel " in the gallbladder can be

> just as irritating as regular stones.

I personally would prefer to suffer through passing the stones to

removal of my gallbladder. I am very attached to parts of my body and

would prefer to suffer temporarily than lose even a part of my pinky

(even on my foot). Additionally, what if you could dilute bile ducts to

make passing the stones less painful or not painful at all? This herb

has antispasmodic quality. It has also been used as anodyne (pain

reliever). BTW, that's what Dr. Kwasniewski says needs to be done too at

http://homodiet.netfirms.com/q_a/gallstones.htm

> If something were caught

> early enough it's always possible alternative measures could work, I

> suppose, but usually by the time you're symptomatic with gallbladder

> disease it's gone pretty far.

When I was a child, I was diagnosed with chronic cholecystitis. My liver

was enlarged, and pain in the area of my belly wasn't too rare. I was

told to limit fat, so my mother deprived me of meat, meat and bone

stock, butter, etc. I have gone to places where they treat people with

mineral water several times, took some herbs I think, and I don't think

I have the problem anymore. I can eat half a pound of butter or 2 lb

sour cream a day with no problems. Maybe the problem was caught early

enough.

Roman

[Guest guest]

Many years ago I read a book by Marjorie Holmes called God and

vitamins. In it she wrote that lecithin dissolves gallstones. Since

then my husband and I always take lecithin for any pain that resembles

gallbladder pain and the lecithin always clears it up. We have told

many other people we know about it and it always seems to work for

them. It is worth a try. We take a couple of 1200 mg lecithin (or

400mg concentrate) softgels a day for a few days and the pains goes away.

Nina

> > Here's my

> > background on this issue: I not only passed a stone and had my

> > gallbladder removed, I'm a professional journalist and researched the

> > article I wrote with both allopathic doctors and sources, and doctors

> > at the National College of Naturopathic Medicine here in Portland.

Even

> > the naturopaths agree that at some point when irritation of the

> > gallbladder has gotten to a debilitating point the thing has to go,

> > there's just not much else that can be done. Believe me, I tried

to get

> > out of having the surgery and in the end it was the only option.

>

> I find this very hard to believe. I am sure there are herbs and what

not

> that will cause the stones to break down and/or dissolve to make

removal

> of gallbladder unnecessary. If I had a problem with this, I would

> research this and find a solution, but fortunately, I don't. I don't

> mean to belittle your research in any way, Lynn; I just can't accept

> this as " all there is " .

>

> I have just read your article

> (http://www.newhomemaker.com/health/gallbladder.html) and would like to

> comment on it and ask some questions. I hope you take it well

>

> > Even alternative medicine practitioners admit that after a certain

point there's nothing to be done but remove the entire organ.

>

> I would think that what this point differs from a practitioner to

> practitioner based on his knowledge, experience, and methods he

employs.

> You always get an answer based on what the person knows. If you go to a

> surgeon with a problem, you are more likely to get a recommendation to

> have a surgery than if you went to, say, a chiropractor (this is what

> has happened to my dad -- thank god, we distrust mainstream

doctors). If

> you go to an allopath or even a naturopath who knows nothing about how

> to use herbs for healing, you will not get an answer to use an herb

or a

> combination. A homeopath might have offered you a different effective

> remedy. My point is that even if you have gone to both sides, it's

still

> very easy to miss many opportunities because each person has a limited

> knowledge.

>

> > For those of us susceptible to gallbladder problems, the best

thing to do is keep the diet low in saturated fats. Limit animal fats

in particular and stick to nonsaturated vegetable sources of fat, such

as olive oil.

>

> Could you explain the mechanism that makes limiting saturated fat and

> especially animal fat important for those prone to gallbladder

problems?

> Would coconut oil (contains much more saturated fatty acids than any

> animal fat) be worse than animal fat, according to your research? I

> would like to learn the logic behind this recommendation.

>

> Finally, please take a look at

> http://www.wholeworldbotanicals.com/herbal_breakstone.html. It's about

> an herb called Chanca Piedra that is used " to break up and expel both

> kidney stones, and gall stones " , among many other things ( " been

prove in

> scientific research to have antihepatotoxic, antispasmodic, antiviral,

> bactericidal, febrifugal, and hypoglycemic activity " ). If anyone has

> hepatitis B and many other problems (too numerous to mention), take a

> look at this too.

>

> Roman

[Guest guest]

> But this logic would dictate limiting all fats. However, in your

> article, you specifically recommend to replace *saturated* and *animal*

> fats with plant oils. I curious why.

Animal fats seem to stimulate the gallbladder a lot more. By the time I

finally had my gallbladder out I couldn't tolerate ANY fats. I was

eating lettuce and nonfat milk, basically.

> I personally would prefer to suffer through passing the stones to

> removal of my gallbladder.

Ah, you say that now. I've undergone a lot of serious pain in my life

and passing a stone isn't just something you " bear. " If you haven't

passed one, you just don't know how much it hurts.

> I don't think

> I have the problem anymore. I can eat half a pound of butter or 2 lb

> sour cream a day with no problems. Maybe the problem was caught early

> enough.

Maybe so! Or you may have been misdiagnosed in your youth. Either way,

lucky you.

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

[Guest guest]

>> . I have gone to places where they treat people with

mineral water several times, took some herbs I think, and I don't think

I have the problem anymore. <<

The thing is, most people with stones don't have a lot of problems with them,

and not all self-diagnosed " gall bladder problems " really are, as someone else

pointed out. So when the problem " goes away " with a given treatment, it doesn't

always mean that treatment is what made it go away.

I am another one who was absolutely determined to keep her gall bladder. I tried

EVERYTHING I knew about at the time - ultra low fat diet, herbs, homeopathy with

the homeopath who had cured my endometriosis, Traditional Chinese Medicine. Like

Lynn, my practicioners told me I needed allopathic care. I rejected their advice

and ended up in an ambulance. I was very angry at everyone who told me that my

gallbladder had to go, and was sure that I could find a way to keep it.

I think it depends on what exactly is WRONG with your gall bladder. I would no

more get my gb out because I had a few stones then I'd eat a Big Mac. <G> But

we're talking about severe gall bladder disease, and I have come to believe

through painful personal experience that there really is a point of no return

with this particular organ.

And with all respect, if you think you'd rather pass gall stones than have your

gallbladder out, all I can say is you've never had a gall stone pass or you

wouldn't think that. If someone had given me a knife I'd have carved my own gall

bladder out without anesthesia.

Christie

[Guest guest]

> Many years ago I read a book by Marjorie Holmes called God and

> vitamins. In it she wrote that lecithin dissolves gallstones.

Lecithin can help, and did help me when my symptoms were still mild,

but if your stones have gotten too big it can't dissolve them fast

enough.

I'm not trying to pooh-pooh folks, honest, I'm just saying that if your

problem is severe enough there's really not much you can do and that

while self-treatment is fine to a point, you have to take the symptoms

seriously because it's not just a matter of discomfort, even severe

discomfort--it can kill you. I watched my sister-in-law fade away to

nearly nothing and then undergo emergency gallbladder surgery, and it

took me nearly a year to recover from my own bout with it. The very

best thing you can do is to not get them in the first place, and

extreme (which usually translates to low fat) dieting seems to be one

of the main culprits in gallstone formation.

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

[Guest guest]

> And with all respect, if you think you'd rather pass gall stones than

> have your gallbladder out, all I can say is you've never had a gall

> stone pass or you wouldn't think that. If someone had given me a knife

> I'd have carved my own gall bladder out without anesthesia.

I wouldn't wish a gallstone attack on my worst enemy. And I've had a

couple of doozy enemies.

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/