Re: Re: Need for water; was Vitamins in food.

[Guest guest]

or drinking stock, or eating foods with water in them...

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, biophile410 wrote:

> In NT Sally points out that Oriental Medicine discourages drinking

> that much water as it's hard on the kidneys. She also recommend

> taking your fluids other ways (fermented beverages, or even squeezing

> some lemon in your water) not just plain water.

>

>

> > >>>It says in the Atkins book to drink 8 glasses of 8 oz of water.

> That seems like a lot of water to me. I'm lucky to get about 2

> glasses down in a day. How important is all that water to the

> induction part of the diet? Just too hard to do for my friend. <<

> > >

> > >

> > > Personally, I think it's essential in ANY weight loss program to

> drink plenty of water.

> >

> > Actually, drinking plenty of water is essential for health even if

> you are not on a weight loss diet. 8 glasses of 8 oz is a standard

> amount pretty much everybody seems to recommend, alternative and

> mainstream health practitioners. See

> http://www.mercola.com/2003/may/7/water.htm,

> http://www.watercure2.com/, and http://www.watercure.com/

> >

> > Roman

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>She also recommend

>taking your fluids other ways (fermented beverages, or even squeezing

>some lemon in your water) not just plain water.

It is interesting to note that in many cultures, drinking water is frowned

upon. Our pioneer ancestors took most of their liquid in the form of cider

or beer. Water was considered unhealthy, and given the water supply, it

probably was by any standards.

I find that plain water leaves me more thirsty, though I do drink it a fair

amount out of laziness. Lemon-water is better, or a little vinegar in

water. I started adding vinegar to my animal's water too: they like it and

it stays cleaner.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Well I personally drink about a gallon of water a day. That's not for health

reasons; it's because I get thirsty. I also drink about a quart and a half

of milk, and about 8-16 oz of kombucha. Sometimes I drink as little as a half

gallon of water (the suggested amount) and if I sweat a lot I might drink

more.

I suppose a) everybody's a little different and I might have a problem

getting sufficient hydration from water. I've been wondering for a while

whether

prill beads might help.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/2/03 11:47:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

jafasum@... writes:

> Also, if you're drinking that much water, might it dilute the stomach acids

> that are needed to start digesting the foods we eat? To drink that much

> water when a person eats about 5-6 meals a day (I'm including snacking) would

be

> very hard to eat without having water in the stomach and most people drink

> when they eat. In fact most people drink most of their water during meals. I

> don't know, it just seems like 64 oz. is too much for the average person.

> Seems like you'd be drowning your system instead of replenishing it.

I eat about 3 meals and 2 snacks a day, and drink up to a gallon of water. I

never drink water with meals. Doesn't seem to be a problem to me. I have

about 16 oz when I wake up with my primal defense, and then eat a half hour

later. I usually leave the house 20 minutes or so after I eat, and I drink a 12

oz glass of water before I leave, which is usually 1 to 1-1/2 hours after the

first glass. (It might be optimal to wait a little longer after the meal, but

I'd get thirsty to early during work if I didn't drink anything before I left).

I bring a 20 oz bottle of water to work, and sip on that throughout the day.

When I get home, I drink some more water while I cook dinner. Dinner would

be eaten about a half hour later I bring a 20 oz bottle of water to class and

sip it throughout class.

That's already over 64 oz, and I usually don't drink within a half hour of

lunch or snack at work, and I may or may not drink more at home at night,

perhaps a half hour before or after a snack.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Also, if you're drinking that much water, might it dilute the stomach acids that

are needed to start digesting the foods we eat? To drink that much water when a

person eats about 5-6 meals a day (I'm including snacking) would be very hard to

eat without having water in the stomach and most people drink when they eat. In

fact most people drink most of their water during meals. I don't know, it just

seems like 64 oz. is too much for the average person. Seems like you'd be

drowning your system instead of replenishing it.

Jafa

biophile410 <biophile410@...> wrote:

In NT Sally points out that Oriental Medicine discourages drinking

that much water as it's hard on the kidneys. She also recommend

taking your fluids other ways (fermented beverages, or even squeezing

some lemon in your water) not just plain water.

> >>>It says in the Atkins book to drink 8 glasses of 8 oz of water.

That seems like a lot of water to me. I'm lucky to get about 2

glasses down in a day. How important is all that water to the

induction part of the diet? Just too hard to do for my friend. <<

> >

> >

> > Personally, I think it's essential in ANY weight loss program to

drink plenty of water.

>

> Actually, drinking plenty of water is essential for health even if

you are not on a weight loss diet. 8 glasses of 8 oz is a standard

amount pretty much everybody seems to recommend, alternative and

mainstream health practitioners. See

http://www.mercola.com/2003/may/7/water.htm

http://www.watercure2.com/ and http://www.watercure.com/

>

> Roman

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/2/03 8:58:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, romeml@...

writes:

> pH level is determined by a number of hydrogen ions in a solution. I think

> drinking a glass or two of water won't prevent ions that are present in the

> stomach's acid from getting into contact with food. And, as has pointed

> out, if you drink a lot, less frequently, you should be able to drink enough

> water sufficiently far away from meals, timewise.

No, but wouldn't they react with the the water to form hydronium ions and

ionic chloride? If so, there goes your HCl, pretty much worthless for food.

However, I would think you would be secreting minimal stomach acid or none while

drinking water, and if you do it separately from meals, it is a non-issue.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/2/03 11:57:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

biophile410@... writes:

> I don't know. I personally don't feel good drinking that much water,

> it makes me feel bloated. Maybe my kidneys aren't up to par, or maybe

> it's because I only weigh 111 lb and am small boned. Maybe people with

> 'denser' body mass need more water. I'm curious, if it's not too

> personal a question... how often do people drinking 1/2 gallon

> urinate? How much peeing is considered healthy by those making the 8

> glasses a day recommendation? It seems to me any doctor making that

> recommendation (and many do) what want to know if it was causing the

> patient to pee excessively, and weigh the benefits against the

> potential harm.

I've always peed a lot, but I think that's because my bladder is a little

underdeveloped. It's better than it used to be. I probably pee 5-7 times a day

now. I used to pee a lot and get thirsty, and the water would go right in and

out of me without quenching my thirst, and I might during periods pee 10

times in an hour or two. I was worried it was a sign of diabetes, but I had my

blood sugar tested and the doc said it was " fine. " In any case, it doesn't

happen anymore, though I drink a half gallon to a gallon a day. (In those

cases,

I would at periods drink as much in an hour or two).

My personal opinion is that if you are peeing less than, say, 5 times a day,

you probably need more water, and if your pee is pure clear all the time, you

are probably drinking too much. Just a guess.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> It is interesting to note that in many cultures, drinking water is frowned

> upon. Our pioneer ancestors took most of their liquid in the form of cider

> or beer. Water was considered unhealthy, and given the water supply, it

> probably was by any standards.

>

> I find that plain water leaves me more thirsty, though I do drink it a fair

> amount out of laziness. Lemon-water is better, or a little vinegar in

> water. I started adding vinegar to my animal's water too: they like it and

> it stays cleaner.

biophile410 wrote:

> In NT Sally points out that Oriental Medicine discourages drinking

> that much water as it's hard on the kidneys. She also recommend

> taking your fluids other ways (fermented beverages, or even squeezing

> some lemon in your water) not just plain water.

It may all be so, or Sally got something wrong, or Oriental medicine got it

wrong, or it's just one element in that system taken in isolation, which can

lead to misunderstanding. Whatever anyone has said, how do you reconcile that

with definite improvement of health and plain feeling of wellbeing that people

experience by drinking about 8x8 or more water? For example, I know someone who

has practically cured his asthma by drinking about half a gallon of water daily.

Roman

[Guest guest]

Jafa Sum wrote:

> Also, if you're drinking that much water, might it dilute the stomach acids

that are needed to start digesting the foods we eat? To drink that much water

when a person eats about 5-6 meals a day (I'm including snacking) would be very

hard to eat without having water in the stomach and most people drink when they

eat. In fact most people drink most of their water during meals. I don't know,

it just seems like 64 oz. is too much for the average person. Seems like you'd

be drowning your system instead of replenishing it.

pH level is determined by a number of hydrogen ions in a solution. I think

drinking a glass or two of water won't prevent ions that are present in the

stomach's acid from getting into contact with food. And, as has pointed

out, if you drink a lot, less frequently, you should be able to drink enough

water sufficiently far away from meals, timewise.

Roman

[Guest guest]

Roman,

If I take what you said seriously, I need to drink a lot more water. My problem

is that my thirst is quenched after a few ounces of drinking. After that I feel

like I am going to choke to get the rest of it down. And I'm only talking about

6 oz. at a time. I end up sipping a lot thru the day, but I end up not drinking

nearly enough. Most of my drinking is with meals, as it makes me thirstier. A

salty meal also helps. But to just drink 8 oz. at one time is torture.

Any suggestion would be much appreciated.

Jafa

Roman <romeml@...> wrote:

Jafa Sum wrote:

> Also, if you're drinking that much water, might it dilute the stomach acids

that are needed to start digesting the foods we eat? To drink that much water

when a person eats about 5-6 meals a day (I'm including snacking) would be very

hard to eat without having water in the stomach and most people drink when they

eat. In fact most people drink most of their water during meals. I don't know,

it just seems like 64 oz. is too much for the average person. Seems like you'd

be drowning your system instead of replenishing it.

pH level is determined by a number of hydrogen ions in a solution. I think

drinking a glass or two of water won't prevent ions that are present in the

stomach's acid from getting into contact with food. And, as has pointed

out, if you drink a lot, less frequently, you should be able to drink enough

water sufficiently far away from meals, timewise.

Roman

[Guest guest]

>> I don't know, it just seems like 64 oz. is too much for the average person.

Seems like you'd be drowning your system instead of replenishing it. <<

I have been drinking 64 ounces of water daily for 7 weeks now, and I love it and

feel wonderful. Hard to say what is having the effect (increased fat, decreased

carbs, increased water consumption), but my skin is so soft it's like satin

(total strangers say to me on the street, " Excuse me, but you have such

beautiful skin!), and my joints feel much better. Now, being in ketosis makes

you thirsty, and losing weight makes your mouth taste awful, so it's easy for me

to drink this much. I never did before.

I definitely feel replenished and not drowned. In fact, I am much LESS

waterlogged than I was before, although that probably is about the diet, rather

than the water.

Atkins has you drink the water to flush toxins and ketones that are the result

of fat loss, but it's a habit I intend to keep.

Christie

[Guest guest]

>It may all be so, or Sally got something wrong, or Oriental medicine got it

wrong, or it's just one element in that system taken in isolation, which can

lead to misunderstanding. Whatever anyone has said, how do you reconcile that

with definite improvement of health and plain feeling of wellbeing that people

experience by drinking about 8x8 or more water? For example, I know someone who

has practically cured his asthma by drinking about half a gallon of water daily.

>

>Roman

Maybe some people just need more water than others? When I'm eating one way I'm

thirsty all the time (esp. if I'm losing weight) and I feel better drinking more

water. Sometimes I need very little water and feel lousy if I drink too much. My

chickens need constant water. The goats only drink it if they are getting dry

hay. I kind of think the need for water is variable.

Water DOES flush stuff (both vitamins and toxins) out of the body. That could be

a good thing or a bad thing, depending.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Jafa Sum wrote:

> Roman,

>

> If I take what you said seriously, I need to drink a lot more water. My

problem is that my thirst is quenched after a few ounces of drinking. After

that I feel like I am going to choke to get the rest of it down. And I'm only

talking about 6 oz. at a time. I end up sipping a lot thru the day, but I end

up not drinking nearly enough. Most of my drinking is with meals, as it makes

me thirstier. A salty meal also helps. But to just drink 8 oz. at one time is

torture.

>

> Any suggestion would be much appreciated.

>

> Jafa

My mother had the same problem, but with my constant nagging, she gradually

increased her water consumption significantly. Perhaps, you could too -- do it

gradually.

Roman

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> Maybe some people just need more water than others?

That's what Mercola says too at http://www.mercola.com/2003/may/7/water.htm

Roman

[Guest guest]

biophile410 wrote:

> I don't know. I personally don't feel good drinking that much water,

> it makes me feel bloated. Maybe my kidneys aren't up to par, or maybe

> it's because I only weigh 111 lb and am small boned. Maybe people with

> 'denser' body mass need more water.

8x8 is an average recommendation, and it sure must depend on weight, etc. I

usually hear that you have to divide your weight in pounds by 2 to determine the

number of ounces of water you should drink. I am sure it's a rough

approximation, and some people could need less or more water.

It could also depend of quality of water. Water from different sources has

different penetrating abilities, and I'd expect water with higher penetrating

ability to be more hydrating, which would decrease needed amount of it.

>I'm curious, if it's not too

> personal a question... how often do people drinking 1/2 gallon

> urinate? How much peeing is considered healthy by those making the 8

> glasses a day recommendation? It seems to me any doctor making that

> recommendation (and many do) what want to know if it was causing the

> patient to pee excessively, and weigh the benefits against the

> potential harm.

I don't count, but I'd guess maybe 4 or so.

Roman

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> Maybe some people just need more water than others?

That's what Mercola says too at

http://www.mercola.com/2003/may/7/water.htm

Roman

Or you are like me who is plagued with kidney stones and have to drink 2

½ liters of water a day for the rest of my life. It was awful at first

but now it is very easy for me to drink that much water.

Ina

[Guest guest]

a couple of years ago, before i knew anything at all about health, if i drank a

dixie cup of water, i called it good. now i am horrified at how flippant i was

about it and don't wonder that my kidneys hurt quite a bit (did not realize it

was where my kidneys were, i just thought it was muscular). i did end up with a

kidney stone. my conventional doctor at the time told me that it would be good

to " try " to drink more water. a few months later, my new naturopathic doctor

said i must. i do lots better, but still struggle with it. i think that without

out fluid going through, the body gets stagnant. that's how i picture it anyway.

and i've read that once you feel thirsty you are already dehydrated, so i

suppose having water through the day keeps you ahead of the game. and so...

these are my thoughts!

sonya

Re: Re: Need for water; was Vitamins in food.

Jafa Sum wrote:

> Roman,

>

> If I take what you said seriously, I need to drink a lot more water. My

problem is that my thirst is quenched after a few ounces of drinking. After

that I feel like I am going to choke to get the rest of it down. And I'm only

talking about 6 oz. at a time. I end up sipping a lot thru the day, but I end

up not drinking nearly enough. Most of my drinking is with meals, as it makes

me thirstier. A salty meal also helps. But to just drink 8 oz. at one time is

torture.

>

> Any suggestion would be much appreciated.

>

> Jafa

My mother had the same problem, but with my constant nagging, she gradually

increased her water consumption significantly. Perhaps, you could too -- do it

gradually.

Roman

[Guest guest]

>i do lots better, but still struggle with it. i think that without out fluid

going through, the body gets stagnant. that's how i picture it anyway. and i've

read that once you feel thirsty you are already dehydrated, so i suppose having

water through the day keeps you ahead of the game. and so... these are my

thoughts!

I have to confess that at one point in time, I drank very little water and a ton

of coffee. I worked at Boeing, and it took me a few months to figure out that

the reason I went to the coffee pot was that it was NEAR and the water cooler

was a mile or two down an endless hall, FAR away, and basically I was thirsty.

Finally my brain had an " aha! " experience and I bought the first water bottle in

my part of Cubeland. Suddenly I found myself sipping it, all day, and I was

drinking a quart a day! And far less coffee. Took a lot of IQ points to figure

that one out.

Anyway, the others did not ridicule me too badly and water bottles soon popped

up on other desks. Today I have an ice machine a few feet away from my desk, and

I just make it a point of having a full glass of water with ice handy. With

lemon would be better! If I am thirsty, I drink more, if not, I drink less. But

I don't think about it much. I think part of the challenge is just to keep good

water handy -- coffee and soda are more common in workplaces.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

In a message dated 7/3/03 3:59:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> I have to confess that at one point in time, I drank very little water and

> a ton of coffee. I worked at Boeing, and it took me a few months to figure

> out that the reason I went to the coffee pot was that it was NEAR and the

water

> cooler was a mile or two down an endless hall, FAR away, and basically I was

> thirsty. Finally my brain had an " aha! " experience and I bought the first

> water bottle in my part of Cubeland. Suddenly I found myself sipping it, all

> day, and I was drinking a quart a day! And far less coffee. Took a lot of IQ

> points to figure that one out.

Well, however many points you used up with that one, you seem to have plenty

left ;-)

chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/3/03 7:51:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ---------> my understanding is that drinking a lot of water WITH meals

> *dilutes* HCl. how could it not? better to drink kombucha, beet kvass or the

> like, WITH meals, i'd think.

Just to clarify what I said about hydronium ions before, since I looked it

up, HCl will *always* form hydronium ions when dissolved in water. *however*

this does not affect the acidity of the H+ ion very much. Usually because of

its strong attraction it is associated with a large number of water molecules

attached to it. But if you add aqueous HCl (which necessarily exists as

hydronium ions and Cl- ions) to a base, it still reacts.

So the forming of hydronium ions, wouldn't, as I suggested before, inhibit

digestion. I do wonder though if a greater concentration of water would lead to

larger hydronium ions with a greater *buffering* of the H+ ions from the

food, but I don't know. But obviously there would be less H+ ions per given

amount of water if water is extraneously added to the stomach.

I'm not sure how drinking kombucha or beet kvass would change that.

Certainly I think lactic acid and other acids can make up for lost stomach

acid... but

it wouldn't change the HCl dilution would it? At the same time I suppose

it's irrelevant since the only thing that matters is the number of H+ ions.

Still, HCl is a strong acid and lactic and ascetic acids are weak acids, so for

comparable percent acid in an aqueous solution HCl will donate an H+ ion for

every HCl molecule, while lactic and ascetic acids will donate far less than

that.

I think at some point a drink must become a *food*. Like milk, or cultured

milk...?

I think it is good to drink some lacto-fermented stuff with meals but like

Sally suggests I keep it to a minimum rather than drinking a whole glass. I do

drink whole glasses of half-and-half kefir, though I think that seems to count

as food.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>>>

> pH level is determined by a number of hydrogen ions in a solution. I think

> drinking a glass or two of water won't prevent ions that are present in

the

> stomach's acid from getting into contact with food. And, as has

pointed

> out, if you drink a lot, less frequently, you should be able to drink

enough

> water sufficiently far away from meals, timewise.

---------> my understanding is that drinking a lot of water WITH meals

*dilutes* HCl. how could it not? better to drink kombucha, beet kvass or the

like, WITH meals, i'd think.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>>>>>I have been drinking 64 ounces of water daily for 7 weeks now, and I

love it and feel wonderful. Hard to say what is having the effect (increased

fat, decreased carbs, increased water consumption), but my skin is so soft

it's like satin (total strangers say to me on the street, " Excuse me, but

you have such beautiful skin!), and my joints feel much better.

------->i really think good *raw* fats in particular have a signficant

effect on skin. i've always had soft skin, at least i'd been told it many

times. but since i began eating/drinking raw milk, cream, butter, coconut

oil, and fatty cuts of meat it's even silkier than it was before, and as i

noted on wellpeople a while back, a patch of psoriasis on my back (that i'd

had for 17 years or so) cleared up.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/3/03 9:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

>

> ------------>i don't know what a " hyrdonium ion " is...any chance you could

> translate what you just said here for laypeople without any chemistry

> background?

>

yes sorry, after i sent the email i realized i never said what one is! it is

H3O. It is just an H+ ion clung to a water molecule. In fact it could be

clung to a great many water molecules so could be H9O4 or something like that.

> i think if you drink a large amount of water with a meal, part of the issue

> is that it may inhibit HCl and digestive enzymes (and maybe intrinsic

> factor?) from coming into *contact* with the food particles in chyme. maybe

> it doesn't actually *dilute* HCl, but merely interfere with HCl coming into

> contact with the food particles? my understanding is that not everything we

> eat always comes into contact with gastric juices and enzymes, depending on

> various factors. if you're displacing some of the food with liquid (not just

> water) then perhaps that reduces contact with food, thus reducing digestion.

>

i'd think so. i also think it's fair to say the HCl solution is " diluted "

like you originally said because there is more water per H+ ion.

> ----->aside from the H+ donation issue (which may be irrelevant) beet kvass

> and kombucha both aid digestion, whether from the organic acids (kombucha

> has a number of organic acids besides acetic and lactic) or from the

> bacteria and/or enzymes present in these drinks, unlike water. so, at

> minimum they *aid* digestion, whereas water doesn't, at least not to my

> knowledge.

i agree with this. water i think does aid digestion because its needed for

hydrolysis, but i don't know if the water inherent in the HCl solution secreted

by the gut is sufficient or not, so in terms of *drinking* water with meals

it may be moot. however, i have a vague impression from some things i've read

that it would be good to drink water a half hour or so before meals to insure

sufficient hydration, presumably for sufficient hydrolysis (breaking down with

water iirc), but not *with* meals, to avoid diluting the HCl.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> ---------> my understanding is that drinking a lot of water WITH meals

> *dilutes* HCl. how could it not? better to drink kombucha, beet kvass or

the

> like, WITH meals, i'd think.

Just to clarify what I said about hydronium ions before, since I looked it

up, HCl will *always* form hydronium ions when dissolved in water.

*however*

this does not affect the acidity of the H+ ion very much. Usually because

of

its strong attraction it is associated with a large number of water

molecules

attached to it. But if you add aqueous HCl (which necessarily exists as

hydronium ions and Cl- ions) to a base, it still reacts.

So the forming of hydronium ions, wouldn't, as I suggested before, inhibit

digestion. I do wonder though if a greater concentration of water would

lead to

larger hydronium ions with a greater *buffering* of the H+ ions from the

food, but I don't know. But obviously there would be less H+ ions per given

amount of water if water is extraneously added to the stomach.

------------>i don't know what a " hyrdonium ion " is...any chance you could

translate what you just said here for laypeople without any chemistry

background?

i think if you drink a large amount of water with a meal, part of the issue

is that it may inhibit HCl and digestive enzymes (and maybe intrinsic

factor?) from coming into *contact* with the food particles in chyme. maybe

it doesn't actually *dilute* HCl, but merely interfere with HCl coming into

contact with the food particles? my understanding is that not everything we

eat always comes into contact with gastric juices and enzymes, depending on

various factors. if you're displacing some of the food with liquid (not just

water) then perhaps that reduces contact with food, thus reducing digestion.

>>>>I'm not sure how drinking kombucha or beet kvass would change that.

Certainly I think lactic acid and other acids can make up for lost stomach

acid... but

it wouldn't change the HCl dilution would it? At the same time I suppose

it's irrelevant since the only thing that matters is the number of H+ ions.

Still, HCl is a strong acid and lactic and ascetic acids are weak acids, so

for

comparable percent acid in an aqueous solution HCl will donate an H+ ion for

every HCl molecule, while lactic and ascetic acids will donate far less than

that.

----->aside from the H+ donation issue (which may be irrelevant) beet kvass

and kombucha both aid digestion, whether from the organic acids (kombucha

has a number of organic acids besides acetic and lactic) or from the

bacteria and/or enzymes present in these drinks, unlike water. so, at

minimum they *aid* digestion, whereas water doesn't, at least not to my

knowledge.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...