Re: Ketosis-Is it necessary??

[Guest guest]

>> There are so many weight loss plans. Of course Atkins recommends going into

ketosis to lose body fat, where most of the other low carb diets say it isn't

necessary. According to Christie who posted about a week ago and is very

familiar with Atkins, if a person doesn't go into ketosis and loses weight, he

will be losing muscle, and some body fat. I may have misinterpreted that. So,

please comment on the above to get some clarity on this issue. <<

I think this ends up being a question of semantics. If you burn your stored body

fat, that is the process of lipolysis, and it produces ketone bodies (ketosis).

If you are burning stored fat, you are " in " ketosis, but if you are kind of

going in and out of it, you still will burn stored fat, it's just that your body

will be switching back and forth between its two alternate fueling systems.

The advantage of eating very low carbs and inducing an ongoing state of

lipolyis/ketosis is that you will have many metabolic benefits such as the

elimination of cravings, accelerated fat burning, and the suppression of

appetite. I don't know of any disadvantages for anyone who has excess body fat

to inducing this state, so I don't know why people become so concerned about it.

Lipolysis is a perfectly normal function of the human body.

But of course you can lose excess body fat in other ways, including very

aggressive exercise programs. If you try to " diet " your weight off without going

into the state of lipolysis/ketosis, you won't be burning fat at its most

efficient rate, so you run the risk of using muscle (which IS bad for you), or

of simply losing much more slowly. But if you don't have a lot of excess body

fat, then losing slowly is ok too. It will just take longer, but frankly I think

that slow and steady wins the race when it comes to weight loss, anyway. They

key is to choose a way of eating that supports good health, energy, etc while

you are reducing stored body fat, to exercise (an integral part of Atkins, btw),

and not to choose a way of eating that puts your body into " starvation " mode,

which is what the low-fat lie, I mean DIET, does. When you're in starvation

mode, it's almost impossible to lose weight, you are depressed, you are hungry,

you have no energy.

Christie

[Guest guest]

I have just read Schwarzbein Principle and she doesn't think it's necessary

to go into ketosis. She thinks if you are in ketosis you could be damaging

your metabolism and possibly losing muscle and bone mass. She thinks it is

healthier to lose weight without going into ketosis. You should only be

losing about 1 pound per week (except for the first week??), and with

ketosis people usually lose faster, which means they are possibly losing

muscle and bone mass.

Michele in WA

----- Original Message -----

From: " Jafa Sum " <jafasum@...

>

> There are so many weight loss plans. Of course Atkins recommends going

into ketosis to lose body fat, where most of the other low carb diets say it

isn't necessary. According to Christie who posted about a week ago and is

very familiar with Atkins, if a person doesn't go into ketosis and loses

weight, he will be losing muscle, and some body fat. I may have

misinterpreted that. So, please comment on the above to get some clarity on

this issue.

[Guest guest]

>> I have just read Schwarzbein Principle and she doesn't think it's necessary

to go into ketosis. She thinks if you are in ketosis you could be damaging

your metabolism and possibly losing muscle and bone mass. She thinks it is

healthier to lose weight without going into ketosis. You should only be

losing about 1 pound per week (except for the first week??), and with

ketosis people usually lose faster, which means they are possibly losing

muscle and bone mass. <<

With all due respect, by very definition, if you are in ketosis, you are burning

FAT, not muscle or bone mass. She can worry about that all she wants, but there

is no evidence she's correct. If you are in ketosis AND also starving yourself,

yes, you'll burn muscle - but that's also true if you are starving and NOT in

ketosis. Atkins, with its high levels of fat, does not let your body get into

starvation mode.

Ketosis is a side effect of lipolysis, which is the burning of our stored body

fat. How on earth does she expect to get rid of it? We either burn it as fuel or

we get it sucked off with liposuction, I don't know of any alternatives.

I think that the prejudice against inducing lipolysis/ketosis is just that, a

prejudice, and one based on a misunderstanding.

The Schwarzbein diet won't work for me, as I cannot handle the higher levels of

carbs, but I've known a number of people who have had great success on

higher-carb, but still low carb, plans, including that one. I don't like her

approval of soy and canola, or her disapproval of coconut oil, but I think that

her plan could work for someone. Everyone is different. I do think that Atkins

has a lot of problems, primarily with their whole line of " fake foods, " but it

also has the longest track record, the best science, and the most research

behind it. I think it's the most radical of the plans, but for those with

serious problems with cravings, blood sugar swings, food addictions, and lack of

energy, it's probably the best of the plans. Those with milder problems might do

better with less radical solutions, and obviously those who don't have a lot of

excess body fat have the most options of all.

Christie

[Guest guest]

Re: Ketosis-Is it necessary??

> >> I have just read Schwarzbein Principle and she doesn't think it's

necessary

> to go into ketosis. She thinks if you are in ketosis you could be

damaging

> your metabolism and possibly losing muscle and bone mass. She thinks it

is

> healthier to lose weight without going into ketosis. You should only be

> losing about 1 pound per week (except for the first week??), and with

> ketosis people usually lose faster, which means they are possibly losing

> muscle and bone mass. <<

>

> With all due respect, by very definition, if you are in ketosis, you are

burning FAT, not muscle or bone mass.

I realize that ketosis means you are burning fat and didn't say that it

meant something else, but how do you know you are not overdoing it?? How do

you know you are not burning muscle or bone mass? Maybe you're not. I don't

care if someone wants to eat 15-20g of carb a day if that makes them happy.

I personally don't want to go that low. Atkins isn't the only one who knows

something about this stuff and I was just offering a different viewpoint

from Atkins. Schwarzbein's approval of canola and soy (which I also don't

agree with) is no different than the problems with Atkins . Jafa was only

asking if ketosis was necessary to burn fat, I don't think it is necessary,

and was just offering why I thought that.

>She can worry about that all she wants, but there is no evidence she's

correct. If >you are in ketosis AND also starving yourself, yes, you'll burn

muscle - but that's >also true if you are starving and NOT in ketosis.

Atkins, with its high levels of fat, >does not let your body get into

starvation mode.

>

> Ketosis is a side effect of lipolysis, which is the burning of our stored

body fat. >How on earth does she expect to get rid of it?

You have to have ketone protein in your urine to be burning stored body

fat??? I find that hard to believe without some proof to back it up.

> I think that the prejudice against inducing lipolysis/ketosis is just

that, a prejudice, and one based on a misunderstanding.

>

I'm not prejudiced, maybe Schwarzbein is, but you seem prejudiced against

her plan.

> The Schwarzbein diet won't work for me, as I cannot handle the higher

levels of carbs, but I've known a number of people who have had great

success on higher-carb, but still low carb, plans, including that one.

That's the point, it didn't work for you and Atkins does, for others it's

the other way around. Overall they are both helpful and both have problems.

I was just sharing what little I know. :-)

Michele

[Guest guest]

>Ketosis is a side effect of lipolysis, which is the burning of our stored

>body fat. How on earth does she expect to get rid of it? We either burn it

>as fuel or we get it sucked off with liposuction, I don't know of any

>alternatives.

That is what Atkins seems to say, but other writups have another view.

Basically the body is designed to burn fat, and it does so all day long.

Fat moves in and out of the fat cells. Some hormones (like insulin and

cortisol) affect the process, so the fat can get kind of " locked in " the

fat cells and not be available for energy.

But normally, the body burns fat. To burn fat, it needs a little bit of

carb. That bit of carb plus the fat make the energy. It also needs carb for

your brain, which does NOT burn fat (but can burn ketones, I take it). You

also burn carb during high-intensity workouts. When the body burns fat with

carb, it does so very efficiently and there are few by products.

Now, if there is NO carb, then the body can't burn fat completely, so it

takes a shortcut and THAT process produces ketones. This is a very

inefficient process, and it takes more calories. Which is great for losing

weight: you are burning your food less efficiently, so you can eat more

food. So, if you are in ketosis, you DO burn more fat. You also lose a lot

of water weight (because carbs in the form of glycogen weigh a lot).

Whether you lose bone or muscle or not, the jury still seems to be out. The

paleo folks and the Inuit though, seemed to survive quite well with few

carbs, as did the guys who lived off pemmican.

But another side effect is that little insulin is produced on a low carb

diet: and low insulin is a great way to lose fat. There are other diets

that produce low insulin -- Schwartzbein being one of them, Cliff Sheats

being another. You can also lower insulin resistance and increase your

metabolism by doing exercise, which helps. Coconut oil also helps, because

it increases your metabolism. Eating protein also increases your

metabolism, which is another reason high-protein diets seem to work.

I also think that if you have food allergies, it causes your cortisol

levels to rise, which makes you store fat and lose muscle. Low carb diets

are also low in the main allergens (wheat, corn, soy).

Anyway, a lot of things influence lipolysis, and it doesn't need to be in

the presence of ketosis. You can lose weight without producing a lot of

ketones.

================

http://www.biochem.usyd.edu.au/~gareth/sci2/studguide/lipolysis_ans.html

" · J. When both glucagon and insulin levels are low, the activity of

TGL will be high.*

Low blood glucagon levels don't affect WAT one way or the other. Low blood

insulin levels do allow WAT [cAMP] to rise and, therefore, TGL to be

stimulated. Diabetes is the best example of the importance of

hypoinsulinemia in the stimulation of lipolyis. Low blood [insulin] is very

effective at causing uncontrolled and massive lipolysis in diabetics. Many

researchers feel that low insulin is more imporant than high glucagon at

stimulating lipolysis. "

===================

As for losing weight quickly: I side with Schwartzbein, regardless of the

muscle issue. You store toxins in your fat, and when you lose fat, you

release those toxins. This process has been known to kill whales (who

store dioxin in their fat). So IF you really lose 4 lbs of fat a week, do

you really want your kidneys and liver to handle that much toxin in one week?

The other issue is pragmatic. Some people are quite happy living extremely

low carb for the rest of their lives. Others go nuts. An ideal diet would

be one you can live on happily for months. We've been altering our diet

slowly, and everyone is skinnier, but we are basically going for " what is

good to eat " and " what works. "

Just my 4 cents worth ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> Jafa was only

asking if ketosis was necessary to burn fat, I don't think it is necessary,

and was just offering why I thought that. You have to have ketone protein in

your urine to be burning stored body

fat??? I find that hard to believe without some proof to back it up. <<

" Ketosis " is the production of ketone bodies. If you burn fat (lipolysis), you

will produce them. You may not stay in a sustained state of lipolysis - if you

eat enough carbs, you'll create glucose, and your body will utilize that

preferentially, and turn any excess into stored fat. On the other hand, if you

keep carbs below a certain level, which is different for every individual, your

body will instead stay more or less all the time in a state of lipolysis.

However, whether you are in that state most of the time, or just go in and out

of it, the burning of body fat as fuel will produce ketones. Depending on how

much water you drink and how many ketones you produce, you may or may not have

measurable ketones in your urine. That is highly variable.

>> I'm not prejudiced, maybe Schwarzbein is, but you seem prejudiced against

her plan. <<

I am not prejudiced per se, because I didn't form an opinion of her plan until

I'd read it. " Prejudice " involves judging something without investigating it,

forming a pre-judgement. I didn't do that. I read her plan, as I read many of

the low carb plans, and I realized that hers, like, say, the Hellers or " The

Zone, " weren't going to work for me. I know plenty of folks who have done well

on her plan, and also on the Hellers. I still feel the " Zone " is all wet, but

it's not a prejudice, I did look into it before forming that highly technical

objection to it. <G> I have no problem with Schwarzbein or the Hellers,

conceptually, they just weren't right for me personally. I do have objections to

the Zone that go much deeper than that.

>> That's the point, it didn't work for you and Atkins does, for others it's

the other way around. Overall they are both helpful and both have problems.

I was just sharing what little I know. :-) <<

I couldn't agree more. I have said before, and I'll say again, there is no such

thing as " one size fits all " when it comes to correct nutrition.

But I do believe that the term " ketosis " and its implications are not

well-understood, and without pitting one diet " guru " against another, I think

that the benefit of a state of lipolysis is one area that Dr. Atkins has

explored that some of the other low-carb proponents have not really done justice

to. But if someone doesn't NEED those benefits, or those benefits are outweighed

by some other adverse effect, or if the benefits aren't happening for a given

individual, then obviously this is totally irrelevant.

>> . Schwarzbein's approval of canola and soy (which I also don't

agree with) is no different than the problems with Atkins <<

I agree with this also.

I had something more I wanted to say but my browser just crashed while I was

trying to copy and paste a reference, so I'll come back to it later... I've

been having computer problems since Friday and I'm REALLY getting fed up.

Christie

[Guest guest]

Michele-

>and with

>ketosis people usually lose faster, which means they are possibly losing

>muscle and bone mass.

You can lose muscle and bone whether you're in ketosis or not, and you can

maintain and even build muscle and bone whether you're in ketosis or

not. It depends on a number of factors, including the macro and micro

makeup of your diet.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

I just wanted to point out that, as you say later in your message, you

_don't_ need carb to burn fat. You need carb to burn fat completely and

utilize it at high efficiency. In the medical world, it seems to be taken

on faith that this is automatically good and necessary, and doctors often

insist and are told that fat only burns in the flame of carbohydrate, but

this simply isn't true. For weight loss, it's highly advantageous to burn

fat inefficiently. Not only can you eat more calories (which will in turn

help your body get out of starvation mode) but your body will need to

consume more of its depot fat for a given energy requirement.

>But normally, the body burns fat. To burn fat, it needs a little bit of

>carb. That bit of carb plus the fat make the energy. It also needs carb for

>your brain, which does NOT burn fat (but can burn ketones, I take it). You

>also burn carb during high-intensity workouts. When the body burns fat with

>carb, it does so very efficiently and there are few by products.

>

>Now, if there is NO carb, then the body can't burn fat completely, so it

>takes a shortcut and THAT process produces ketones. This is a very

>inefficient process, and it takes more calories. Which is great for losing

>weight: you are burning your food less efficiently, so you can eat more

>food. So, if you are in ketosis, you DO burn more fat.

-

[Guest guest]

> For weight loss, it's highly advantageous to burn

> fat inefficiently.

Oh...yeah...sure!

Duh.

;-)

[Guest guest]

At 07:37 AM 7/2/2003, you wrote:

>Heidi-

>

>I just wanted to point out that, as you say later in your message, you

>_don't_ need carb to burn fat. You need carb to burn fat completely and

>utilize it at high efficiency. In the medical world, it seems to be taken

>on faith that this is automatically good and necessary, and doctors often

>insist and are told that fat only burns in the flame of carbohydrate, but

>this simply isn't true. For weight loss, it's highly advantageous to burn

>fat inefficiently. Not only can you eat more calories (which will in turn

>help your body get out of starvation mode) but your body will need to

>consume more of its depot fat for a given energy requirement.

I totally agree. A lot of folks seem to think that glucose is the main food for

the body, and really blood glucose is important, but the major fuel is fat. And

I totally agree that if you want to lose weight, burning more calories is a good

thing.

There is still the matter of *desire* -- nature tends to make us desire what is

the most efficient, so we tend to do what is easiest and expends the least

energy. What people desire is really important in dieting -- it is just so hard

to fight against how you are made. Which is why starvation diets don't work

well!

So, if the body desires to be efficient, it might desire not to be in ketosis,

and the person will be craving carbs. Which might also happen, as you've pointed

out, if they don't eat enough fat -- in either case, it will be similar to a

starvation diet, and it will be difficult to stick to the plan. Which is what I

have observed with dedicated Atkins folks -- some of them go off the plan and

gorge like mad on carbs. The trick would be to avoid that, I would think! Some

people seem to avoid this trap and really, truly enjoy living with few carbs,

which makes me think their diet is working for them (correct nutrients, enough

calories, digesting well).

However, I just read something else which is intriguing -- you know that

experiment where the mice live longer if they are fed 30% less? It turns out

mice also live longer if you feed them every OTHER day. They eat the same number

of calories, because they gorge on the days they do eat. I'm not sure how that

relates to ketosis, but maybe the body does better when it is " living on fat "

vs. carbs. When you don't eat, I think it is similar to eating just fat, because

in either case you are metabolizing more lipids from the blood vs. metabolizing

glucose. Lab mice are fed way too much starch, in general, IMO.

I kind of think your body is more designed to burn fat (ketogenically or

otherwise) than sugar (which is a catalyst, for the brain, and for quick action

mainly). Probably most of us in the West *are* more used to burning glucose,

because there is just so much of it in the blood all the time, and that is just

not good for the body.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi Michele

> I have just read Schwarzbein Principle and she doesn't think it's

necessary

> to go into ketosis. She thinks if you are in ketosis you could be

damaging

> your metabolism and possibly losing muscle and bone mass. She

thinks it is

> healthier to lose weight without going into ketosis. You should

only be

> losing about 1 pound per week (except for the first week??), and

with

> ketosis people usually lose faster, which means they are possibly

losing

> muscle and bone mass.

>

I have read TSP 1 and TSP2, both of which are interesting and

informative (I even tried her plans for a while, but they just don't

agree with me!)

However, she makes a lot of comments in her book like those above

about ketosis without actually giving a) any evidence or any

explanation of why she believes that happens. KEtones are released

when body fat is burned. Thereofre, if people on her diet are

burning fat, then they are in ketosis. It is rather odd then that

she would denounce ketosis as it is an unavoidable condition in

someone burning body fat.

I would like to know why she believes losing more than 1lb per week

is unhealthy. Every other nutritionist (Dr Atkins, Dr Groves, Drs

Eades etc) I've read says 1-2lbs is healthy. Any more is unhealhty.

Dr Atkins and Drs Eades recommend diets that take dieters into

ketosis. WEight loss is fast in the first 2 weeks (water) but slows

right down after that, often to less than 1lb per week.

Just my thoughts!

Jo

[Guest guest]

>

> You have to have ketone protein in your urine to be burning stored

body

> fat??? I find that hard to believe without some proof to back it up.

>

>

Actually, the body uses ketones as fuel. Only excess ketones spill

into urine (and other secretions) Schwarzbeiners WILL be in ketosis

if they are burning fat. You cannot burn fat without producing

ketones. What this means is that people who show ketosis on urine

testing strips are wasting energy. Many people find they lose better

when spilling fewer ketones into their urine.

Jo

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " jopollack2001 " <jopollack2001@...>

> > You have to have ketone protein in your urine to be burning stored

> body

> > fat??? > >

> >

>

> Actually, the body uses ketones as fuel. Only excess ketones spill

> into urine (and other secretions)

> What this means is that people who show ketosis on urine

> testing strips are wasting energy. Many people find they lose better

> when spilling fewer ketones into their urine.

>

This was what I was referring to when I said ketosis in my original post.

Michele