Medics Pay

January 30, 2006

I had a similar occasion whilst working on a Seismic vessel last year, where

the patient had a possible DVT and needed to be choppered off for a

Ultrasound. I met a lot of pressure from both the Party Chief and the

Captain to " see how things go " .

The crew also lost their safety bonus...so I was popular but I argued.The

patient was in Australian territorial waters and thus if it became a legal

case it would be succesfully argued that this guy was entitled to treatment

in an Australian hospital.

I wonder whether the previous medics would have felt secure in their

knowledge and ability to gain further work overseas (which pays them well by

Indonesian rates of pay) and would have just bowed to the pressure?

The Ships hospital ........well .........the Trauma bag had I.V fluids that

had been out of date for 2 years......amongst many other things.

Yes it hadn't been staffed by Western trained medics for some time. But the

contract for labour supply? the biggest operator in the business.

>From: Dawdy <jdawdy@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Medics Pay

>Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:00:23 +0500

>

>This is nothing new. It is not just " asian " medical providers either.

>E. European doctors and nurses are quite cheap, often speak excellent

>english, and have extensive medical training.

>

>Ultimately, the thing that usually influences the purse strings to

>loosen up for an expensive western medic is substandard treatment of an

>expatriate at the hands of a non-western medical provider.

>

>This results in lawsuits, and the lawsuits result in case law that

>favors hiring western medics. Case in point: there is a case you can

>read online of the Alaska Workers Compensation Board, which awarded an

>undisclosed sum to a Drilling employee in Kazakhstan who came

>down with shingles, was treated in the company clinic by a PA who did

>not have sufficient Acyclovir on hand to treat him for post-herpetic

>neuralgia. The board stated in its judgement that the employee was due

>the same level of care as he would have gotten at home in Alaska.

>Whether you agree with that or not, it is now a matter of record, and

>will be held up in court as such. Judges and juries don't have much

>sympathy for oil companies hiring Philipino gynecologists equipped with

>a bible and some bandaids (not that I have anything against Philipino

>gynecologists, except that they wouldnt be my first choice for staffing

>a remote site clinic) to take care of their employees while they rake in

>$68 a barrel.

>

>That said, I sometime think that there are companies that actually sit

>down and do the math to figure out how much they are likely to spend on

>lawsuits vs. health care, and if the numbers come out that lawsuits are

>cheaper, well, a few dead or disabled employees isn't a big deal to

>them. Cost of doing business.

>

>Jim

>

>On Sat, 2006-01-28 at 10:09 -0800, Stevan Pierce wrote:

> > Hello there guys,

> > This is a tough issue and for me it just got tougher. I just spoke to

>a formewre Asian administrator for a big Oil Services biz and was told

>that it all comes down to the bottom line. Asian " medics " are costing

>$3-5,000usd/month while western trained (more highly I suspect but it

>seems to make little difference) cost between $18,000 and $25,000usd/month

>depending upon which agency they come from. It isn't rocket science.

>Better get it while you can because with growing " open trade " agreements

>our jobs will be lost to the hungry asian market. Bean counters don't care

>a whit about quality of care or breadth of duties. Companies can hire two

>or three medics from Indonesia to do all the other tasks one Western

>individual takes on and they can put them all in the same cabin. It isn't

>just manufacturing and computer jobs that are being lost to the asian

>market. With numbers like this facing all of us in Remote Medicine we

>better develop and define our value added skills

> > and promote the bejeezuz out of them or we will be left sitting in the

>pub recalling the days when we could actually buy a house and support a

>family on what we " used to make " . I open to suggestions about where to

>take this from here.

> > Best,

> > Steve

> >

> > <lisamitch50@...> wrote: Rab,

> >

> > I think every Medic on the list will say " As much as they will give

>us " .

> >

> > Each rig or platform (that I have been on) have a differing role for

>the medics.

> >

> > Stevan Pierce, WEMT-Paramedic

> > Remote Support Paramedic

> > A.C.E. Personal Trainer

> > Fitness, Health & Wellness Specialist

> > ermedicsp@...

> >

> > " some say a hero could save us, I'm not going to stand here and wait "

> >

February 1, 2006

Joathan,

I agree with you 100% and would back any plan of action you took.

But as you know if we were to cure this malignant dilemma, we could

pass it onto the UN to solve the world's problems.

The price gap between medical providers (East vs West) will always

bring stiff competition and if you ask me this is good for our

profession. I believe that this dilemma gives birth to our 3rd way

to solve this iatrogenic " medics pay issue " .

We need to fill a void, to give the client what he needs and what he

wants. The days of us medics going to remote locations and waiting

for a medical issue to arise are over. Some of us in the western

world might have been able to see this slowly evolving into street

Paramedicine (called Community Paramedicine). I believe our 3rd

choice is to offer a new type of medicine called the " proactive

medic " . This is much more then a medic / safety officer.

As you know when located on a rig or vessel we can take the golden

hour and toss it into the water while we wait 2-3 hours for the

chopper. As studies show, trauma isn't a good thing when you don't

have facilities to treat it. In general, trauma is just not good at

all.

The only other option is to prevent the mishap from occurring in the

first place and that is where our third option comes into play. Now!

There is more then just Trauma, lets look at an MI. Did you know

that 50% of all MI's can be prevented with a healthy fitness routine

and almost the same for stroke. Lowering the statics of ANY medical

events is the best undiscovered medicine on the market. The company

that can make this into a pill form is a company we all should invest

in. So for my third and final answer I give innovation.

Ralph

> > Rab,

> > >

> > > I think every Medic on the list will say " As

> > much as they will give us " .

> > >

> > > Each rig or platform (that I have been on)

> > have a differing role for the medics.

> > >

> > > Stevan Pierce, WEMT-Paramedic

> > > Remote Support Paramedic

> > > A.C.E. Personal Trainer

> > > Fitness, Health & Wellness Specialist

> > > ermedicsp@y...

> > >

> > > " some say a hero could save us, I'm not going to

> > stand here and wait "

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > >

> > > Member Information:

> > >

> > > List owner: Ian Sharpe Owner@R...

> > > Editor: Ross Boardman

> > Editor@R...

> > >

> > > ALL list admin messages (subscriptions &

> > unsubscriptions) should be sent to the list owner.

> > >

> > > Post message: egroups

> > >

> > > Please visit our website

> > http://www.remotemedics.co.uk

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > The Remote Medics Team

> > >

February 2, 2006

In comparison, Paramedics working in Canada in the remote setting, you start

off at $500 / day and with some organizations you are paid up to $1000 per day.

Divide that in half for pounds and the US and Canada dollar are almost the same.

Paramedics working in EMS or flight settings generally start at around $400/day.

Reuben

H Dawdy <jdawdy@...> wrote:

The 18K a month was the figure quoted for an agency/company charging to the

client, which is about right. In my experience, most companies charge between

$500 and $1000US per day for a western medic (exclusive of CP or other high-risk

type work). The medic is usually lucky if he gets half that.

I'm surprised by the comment of US wages at the top, though that may be true in

terms of actual earning power rather than dollars. For example, I never earned

more than $275 a day working for a US company, whereas most UK medics seem to

make around 200UK a day, which is about $360. I think though, that after taxes

and cost of living, in terms of earning power 200UK is about the same as $275US.

Jim

----- Start Original Message -----

From: fraser kelly <fraserkelly2001@...>

Subject: Re: Medics Pay

> its not even as simple as western v others.

> they all earn different wages

> generally US at top,then BRIT,AUS,S.AFRICAN and so on.

> 18 thous a month-I wish!

> I get just above the asian level,and for that princly

> sum the company gets over 25 years of

> experience,numerous nursing degrees and post

> grads,experience as an icrc red cross delegate,ex

> management up to medical director level for one of

> the big medic/assistance companies,and a british

> sandhurst(our west point) trained medical officer with

> combat experience.

> but at this stage in life I aim for contentment and

> job satisfaction over dollar earning,and I am

> happy.some are still trying to pay bills,set up home

> etc and must maximise earnings now.

> but the corp issue of companies trying to get premium

> service for budget price is and always will be valid.

> hence lots of S. Africans running around

> china,khazakstan etc-look western,highly trained and

> cheap(compared to a yank).

> still we could all get phillipine or S African

> passports and demand 25k per month-that would confuse

> the issue!

> fraser

>

> --- Dawdy <jdawdy@...> wrote:

>

> > This is nothing new. It is not just " asian " medical

> > providers either.

> > E. European doctors and nurses are quite cheap,

> > often speak excellent

> > english, and have extensive medical training.

> >

> > Ultimately, the thing that usually influences the

> > purse strings to

> > loosen up for an expensive western medic is

> > substandard treatment of an

> > expatriate at the hands of a non-western medical

> > provider.

> >

> > This results in lawsuits, and the lawsuits result in

> > case law that

> > favors hiring western medics. Case in point: there

> > is a case you can

> > read online of the Alaska Workers Compensation

> > Board, which awarded an

> > undisclosed sum to a Drilling employee in

> > Kazakhstan who came

> > down with shingles, was treated in the company

> > clinic by a PA who did

> > not have sufficient Acyclovir on hand to treat him

> > for post-herpetic

> > neuralgia. The board stated in its judgement that

> > the employee was due

> > the same level of care as he would have gotten at

> > home in Alaska.

> > Whether you agree with that or not, it is now a

> > matter of record, and

> > will be held up in court as such. Judges and juries

> > don't have much

> > sympathy for oil companies hiring Philipino

> > gynecologists equipped with

> > a bible and some bandaids (not that I have anything

> > against Philipino

> > gynecologists, except that they wouldnt be my first

> > choice for staffing

> > a remote site clinic) to take care of their

> > employees while they rake in

> > $68 a barrel.

> >

> > That said, I sometime think that there are companies

> > that actually sit

> > down and do the math to figure out how much they are

> > likely to spend on

> > lawsuits vs. health care, and if the numbers come

> > out that lawsuits are

> > cheaper, well, a few dead or disabled employees

> > isn't a big deal to

> > them. Cost of doing business.

> >

> > Jim

> >

> > On Sat, 2006-01-28 at 10:09 -0800, Stevan Pierce

> > wrote:

> > > Hello there guys,

> > > This is a tough issue and for me it just got

> > tougher. I just spoke to a formewre Asian

> > administrator for a big Oil Services biz and was

> > told that it all comes down to the bottom line.

> > Asian " medics " are costing $3-5,000usd/month while

> > western trained (more highly I suspect but it seems

> > to make little difference) cost between $18,000 and

> > $25,000usd/month depending upon which agency they

> > come from. It isn't rocket science. Better get it

> > while you can because with growing " open trade "

> > agreements our jobs will be lost to the hungry asian

> > market. Bean counters don't care a whit about

> > quality of care or breadth of duties. Companies can

> > hire two or three medics from Indonesia to do all

> > the other tasks one Western individual takes on and

> > they can put them all in the same cabin. It isn't

> > just manufacturing and computer jobs that are being

> > lost to the asian market. With numbers like this

> > facing all of us in Remote Medicine we better

> > develop and define our value added skills

> > > and promote the bejeezuz out of them or we will

> > be left sitting in the pub recalling the days when

> > we could actually buy a house and support a family

> > on what we " used to make " . I open to suggestions

> > about where to take this from here.

> > > Best,

> > > Steve

> > >

> > > <lisamitch50@...> wrote:

> > Rab,

> > >

> > > I think every Medic on the list will say " As

> > much as they will give us " .

> > >

> > > Each rig or platform (that I have been on)

> > have a differing role for the medics.

> > >

> > > Stevan Pierce, WEMT-Paramedic

> > > Remote Support Paramedic

> > > A.C.E. Personal Trainer

> > > Fitness, Health & Wellness Specialist

> > > ermedicsp@...

> > >

> > > " some say a hero could save us, I'm not going to

> > stand here and wait "

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > >

> > > Member Information:

> > >

> > > List owner: Ian Sharpe Owner@...

> > > Editor: Ross Boardman

> > Editor@...

> > >

> > > ALL list admin messages (subscriptions &

> > unsubscriptions) should be sent to the list owner.

> > >

> > > Post message: egroups

> > >

> > > Please visit our website

> > http://www.remotemedics.co.uk

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > The Remote Medics Team

> > >

February 5, 2006

R2D2:

Ok.... so your math needs a wee tweak up, that's in the Canadian Peso!

Conversion to USD is - 23 % today, but Rueben is correct up to $1000.00 CND

Q day on ALS higher risk H2S Frac jobs, a cake walk if nothing goes south on

you, if it does it's a hell of a wreck and you earn every penny

......logistics in helo medivac with 5 hours of daylight and forget about any

military back up (all 23 of our Canadian troops are in Afghanistan in an old

Toyota 1/4 ton and a beat-up leaky Sea King.) at least no incoming RPGs in

Canada....... yet..... but one just has watch out for those pesky Alberta

speed bumps commonly referred to as Moose, if you smack one of those you are

chewing on hair for a week and your truck is on its way to make beer cans,

sounds funny but if you have ever seen ERV vs. Moose its not funny atall.

Back on topic, the operators here are taking up to 50% but truly they DO

have a lot of overhead costs, the current trend is that the operators are

lowering their profit margin expectations: these are some of the reasons I

don't wish to start up my own company...they can have ALL those headaches,

competition, marketing, sales, travel, logistics, insurance, accounting and

all the regulations, and don't forget whiny I miss my mummy medics.

Another point not mentioned here is the seasonal nature of Oilpatch in

Canada, the monthly projection looks terrific but Freezeup and Break-up have

to be calculated into the equation as well, so knock off at least 4 months.

The law's of supply and demand puts a Registered Paramedics here at a

premium and becoming a matter of individual experience that affects the

wages, I dislike the excuse " overqualified " what's with that nonsense....

possibly an excuse to hire Nick the New Guy for a substantially lower cost

and increased profit margin but some operators WILL choose the less

experianced for that reason. The operator does take the higher risk of a

screw-up, fortunately most of the reputable operators are becoming very

aware of that situation, it costs them big time in contract negotiations if

the contractor had just one incident, I stick with the operations that can

say " Risk Assessment " and truly understand this concept, I hope the others

go the way of the Dodo.

Wilf

ps

Where the heck are you Reuben.... UAE or ONT.????

HSE and IPS will not leave me alone cause someone gave them my Sat phone

number...was it you?

I can't help them out as my new lady cougar friend (not the type you find in

the bar) will pine for me, if I go on days off.

ppss

Can you contact Stoodley his e-mail bounces off of Kazakhstan for some

reason, was asked me why aminophyline has lost its appeal in North American

Medicine , would like to forward info to his Russian topside M.D.s. asap.

Re: Medics Pay

>

> In comparison, Paramedics working in Canada in the remote setting, you

> start off at $500 / day and with some organizations you are paid up to

> $1000 per day. Divide that in half for pounds and the US and Canada dollar

> are almost the same. Paramedics working in EMS or flight settings

> generally start at around $400/day.

> Reuben

>

> H Dawdy <jdawdy@...> wrote:

>

> The 18K a month was the figure quoted for an agency/company charging to

> the client, which is about right. In my experience, most companies charge

> between $500 and $1000US per day for a western medic (exclusive of CP or

> other high-risk type work). The medic is usually lucky if he gets half

> that.

>

> I'm surprised by the comment of US wages at the top, though that may be

> true in terms of actual earning power rather than dollars. For example, I

> never earned more than $275 a day working for a US company, whereas most

> UK medics seem to make around 200UK a day, which is about $360. I think

> though, that after taxes and cost of living, in terms of earning power

> 200UK is about the same as $275US.

>

> Jim

February 5, 2006

Wilf,

Anything for Jim Stoodley you can pass through me offline, The vessel he

is on has limited IT and Telecoms but we are hoping to have him up and

running with a contractor Agip account in the next week or so. I'll also

forward your mail to his personal address.

Rgs

Ian

Re: Medics Pay

R2D2:

Ok.... so your math needs a wee tweak up, that's in the Canadian

Peso!

Conversion to USD is - 23 % today, but Rueben is correct up to $1000.00

CND Q day on ALS higher risk H2S Frac jobs, a cake walk if nothing goes

south on you, if it does it's a hell of a wreck and you earn every penny

......logistics in helo medivac with 5 hours of daylight and forget about

any military back up (all 23 of our Canadian troops are in Afghanistan

in an old Toyota 1/4 ton and a beat-up leaky Sea King.) at least no

incoming RPGs in Canada....... yet..... but one just has watch out for

those pesky Alberta speed bumps commonly referred to as Moose, if you

smack one of those you are chewing on hair for a week and your truck is

on its way to make beer cans, sounds funny but if you have ever seen ERV

vs. Moose its not funny atall.

Back on topic, the operators here are taking up to 50% but truly

they DO have a lot of overhead costs, the current trend is that the

operators are lowering their profit margin expectations: these are some

of the reasons I don't wish to start up my own company...they can have

ALL those headaches, competition, marketing, sales, travel, logistics,

insurance, accounting and all the regulations, and don't forget whiny I

miss my mummy medics.

Another point not mentioned here is the seasonal nature of Oilpatch

in Canada, the monthly projection looks terrific but Freezeup and

Break-up have to be calculated into the equation as well, so knock off

at least 4 months.

The law's of supply and demand puts a Registered Paramedics here at

a premium and becoming a matter of individual experience that affects

the wages, I dislike the excuse " overqualified " what's with that

nonsense....

possibly an excuse to hire Nick the New Guy for a substantially lower

cost and increased profit margin but some operators WILL choose the less

experianced for that reason. The operator does take the higher risk of a

screw-up, fortunately most of the reputable operators are becoming very

aware of that situation, it costs them big time in contract negotiations

if the contractor had just one incident, I stick with the operations

that can say " Risk Assessment " and truly understand this concept, I hope

the others go the way of the Dodo.

Wilf

ps

Where the heck are you Reuben.... UAE or ONT.????

HSE and IPS will not leave me alone cause someone gave them my Sat phone

number...was it you?

I can't help them out as my new lady cougar friend (not the type you

find in the bar) will pine for me, if I go on days off.

ppss

Can you contact Stoodley his e-mail bounces off of Kazakhstan for some

reason, was asked me why aminophyline has lost its appeal in North

American Medicine , would like to forward info to his Russian topside

M.D.s. asap.

Re: Medics Pay

>

> In comparison, Paramedics working in Canada in the remote setting,

you

> start off at $500 / day and with some organizations you are paid up to

> $1000 per day. Divide that in half for pounds and the US and Canada

dollar

> are almost the same. Paramedics working in EMS or flight settings

> generally start at around $400/day.

> Reuben

>

> H Dawdy <jdawdy@...> wrote:

>

> The 18K a month was the figure quoted for an agency/company charging

to

> the client, which is about right. In my experience, most companies

charge

> between $500 and $1000US per day for a western medic (exclusive of CP

or

> other high-risk type work). The medic is usually lucky if he gets

half

> that.

>

> I'm surprised by the comment of US wages at the top, though that may

be

> true in terms of actual earning power rather than dollars. For

example, I

> never earned more than $275 a day working for a US company, whereas

most

> UK medics seem to make around 200UK a day, which is about $360. I

think

> though, that after taxes and cost of living, in terms of earning power

> 200UK is about the same as $275US.

>

> Jim

Member Information:

List owner: Ian Sharpe Owner@...

Editor: Ross Boardman Editor@...

ALL list admin messages (subscriptions & unsubscriptions) should be sent

to the list owner.

Post message: egroups

Please visit our website http://www.remotemedics.co.uk

Regards

The Remote Medics Team

February 6, 2006

Wilf

Yes I forgot to add a few quirks to remote medicine in Canada. And the hefty

tax you pay as well. Actually the USD is 11% right now to the Canadian peso. I

just got back from the UAE a week ago. Currently in ONT and will be back in

Alberta within a week. I have no idea how IPS and HSE would have acquired your

sat number. Its hard to get away now days, eh.

I've been emailing with Jim through his Paramedicine account. I will transfer

the Aminophyline info onto him. Where are you these days??

I heard APL was hiring again.....lol.

Take care,

Reuben

Wilf Mackie <w.mackie@...> wrote: