No one knows the answer???

[Guest guest]

I posted a question two times about sprouting spelt. Is it possible

no one knows the answer, or have I somehow offended the group with my

question?

Dawn

[Guest guest]

hmm, i am not sure about why no one answered. i did not see your post until

now.

what was your question? how to sprout spelt? i have done this a couple of

times---it's incredibly easy, really. you take a glass jar and put in your

spelt, cover it with cheesecloth and use a rubber band to secure it. put water

in your jar and then tip it up until it all drains off (you might want to roll

the spelt around so it all gets stuck the sides of the jar). then put it in a

cool, dark place. you are going to leave it there for 2 or 3 days depending on

how long you want the sprouts, taking it out every once in a while (i generally

remember twice a day and that seems sufficient) to rinse and drain again.

that's it! hope that helps.

heather

dawnciano <dawnciano@...> wrote:

I posted a question two times about sprouting spelt. Is it possible

no one knows the answer, or have I somehow offended the group with my

question?

Dawn

[Guest guest]

>I posted a question two times about sprouting spelt. Is it possible

>no one knows the answer, or have I somehow offended the group with my

>question?

>

>Dawn

Seems unlikely, in THIS group, that you could offend someone that easily,

plus, when people get offended they seem to write back (usually at

length!). But as for who knows the answer, that I don't know -- I don't use

spelt at all, and have had lousy luck sprouting grain! Soaking flour in

kefir seems to work for me, and the kefir yeast makes stuff rise too.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

I sprout spelt for bread sometimes. You just do it as you would any other

grain (like wheat)

Happy sprouting.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for the answer. Basically, my question regarded the fact that

not all of the spelt grains were sprouting. The farmer I bought them

from said that it could be because the germ gets damaged during the

hulling process. I wanted to know if it were alright to use the

unsprouted grains or if they contain too much phytic acid. Any ideas?

Thanks again,

Dawn

> hmm, i am not sure about why no one answered. i did not see your

post until now.

>

> what was your question? how to sprout spelt? i have done this a

couple of times---it's incredibly easy, really. you take a glass jar

and put in your spelt, cover it with cheesecloth and use a rubber band

to secure it. put water in your jar and then tip it up until it all

drains off (you might want to roll the spelt around so it all gets

stuck the sides of the jar). then put it in a cool, dark place. you

are going to leave it there for 2 or 3 days depending on how long you

want the sprouts, taking it out every once in a while (i generally

remember twice a day and that seems sufficient) to rinse and drain

again. that's it! hope that helps.

>

> heather

>

> dawnciano <dawnciano@y...> wrote:

> I posted a question two times about sprouting spelt. Is it possible

> no one knows the answer, or have I somehow offended the group with my

> question?

>

> Dawn

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

>

> Seems unlikely, in THIS group, that you could offend someone that

easily,

> plus, when people get offended they seem to write back (usually at

> length!).

It was more of a joke than a real " accusation " . I don't see how

sprouting grains could offend anyone

But as for who knows the answer, that I don't know -- I don't use

> spelt at all, and have had lousy luck sprouting grain! Soaking flour in

> kefir seems to work for me, and the kefir yeast makes stuff rise too.

You don't find that the soaked flours do weird things to baked goods?

(i.e. pancakes get sort of wrinkly and muffins don't cook thoroughly).

I'm just wondering because I have had very good like with soaked baked

goods.

Thanks for the answer though,

Dawn

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>You don't find that the soaked flours do weird things to baked goods?

>(i.e. pancakes get sort of wrinkly and muffins don't cook thoroughly).

>I'm just wondering because I have had very good like with soaked baked

>goods.

Well, I don't bake much for myself (I don't LIKE baked goods much) so I'm

probably not the best person to ask. But when I use sorghum, I mix it with

kefir and just let it stand for a bit. The kefir has a lot of yeast in it,

so it actually makes the dough rise too.

Sorghum seems to be rather digestible anyway, compared to the other flours.

I don't have hard evidence for this, and the phytate levels vary depending

on the type of sorghum: but our guts around here are sensitive and the

sorghum/kefir products seem just fine. They are soft and fluffy, and I get

comments like " these are the best cookies ever! " so I don't think they are

too bad. Millet flour (which I haven't got yet) is pretty low in phytates

naturally also.

When I don't use sorghum, I'm using sweet rice flour, or tapioca or potato

-- which don't have phytates to speak of (tapioca and potatoes are roots,

not grains, and sweet rice flour has all the bran removed it is mainly just

starch). These flours have no nutrients either, I think, but they are

usually in something that DOES have lots of nutrients, like eggs or kefir,

and they aren't the main part of the meal or a large part of our diet.

Anyway, I don't have any specific info on kefir and phytates, but kefir is

SOOO biologically active I'd guess it has to be at least as good as

sourdough. See:

http://www.jsi.com/intl/omni/fe_ch3.htm

· Phytate levels are reduced during yeast fermentation in rye, white,

and whole wheat breads (Harland and Harland, 1980) and sour dough leavening

results in an almost complete degradation of phytate (Bartnik and

Ceglinska, 1981; Bartnik and Florysiak, 1988; Larsson and Sandberg, 1991).

This writup has a LOT about phytates and other anti-nutrients. Apparently

combining grain foods with meat also enhances absorption -- and I don't

think grain foods really " make a meal " in any case, grains should be a

condiment ... turn that food pyramid upside down! But it seems to indicate

that if you are leavening your bread and letting it rise a bit, esp. with

sourdough, then you don't need to sprout it for phytate reduction

(sprouting might do other nice things though).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/3/03 9:03:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

dawnciano@... writes:

> You don't find that the soaked flours do weird things to baked goods?

> (i.e. pancakes get sort of wrinkly and muffins don't cook thoroughly).

Pancakes wrinkly? With the NT recipe?! My NT pancakes come out *awesome*

and everyone that's had them agrees. Can't be my fault; I just follow the NT

recipe.

Chris

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

>But when I use sorghum, I mix it with

> kefir and just let it stand for a bit. The kefir has a lot of yeast

in it,

> so it actually makes the dough rise too.

What do you mean by " for a bit " . You don't need to let it soak for at

least 7 hours?

> Anyway, I don't have any specific info on kefir and phytates, but

kefir is

> SOOO biologically active I'd guess it has to be at least as good as

> sourdough. See:

>

> http://www.jsi.com/intl/omni/fe_ch3.htm

Thanks for the article. It was a bit technical in spots, so I thought

I'd ask if I understood properly. Do they mean that if you soak flour

in PLAIN water for 24 hours it significantly reduces phytate content

or does the water have to have something like yogurt, whey, kefir etc.

in it?

>

> ? Phytate levels are reduced during yeast fermentation in rye,

white,

> and whole wheat breads (Harland and Harland, 1980)

When they refer to " yeast fermentation " does that mean the modern

industrial yeast you buy at the supermarket? And for how long would

the grains have to ferment in yeast to reduce phytates?

>

> This writup has a LOT about phytates and other anti-nutrients.

Apparently

> combining grain foods with meat also enhances absorption -- and I don't

> think grain foods really " make a meal " in any case, grains should be a

> condiment ... turn that food pyramid upside down!

I totally agree with you there.

But it seems to indicate

> that if you are leavening your bread and letting it rise a bit, esp.

with

> sourdough, then you don't need to sprout it for phytate reduction

> (sprouting might do other nice things though).

About how many hours would it take to leaven something like pancakes

with sourdough? And for bread? Would the sour leavened pancakes have

that chewy texture or would they be more fluffy?

I hope you can answers some of my questions. As you can tell, I'm

still learning a lot about using grains properly. It's pretty crucial

now since I'm 4 1/2 months pregnant.

Thanks for your help.

Dawn

[Guest guest]

Ok then what the heck am I doing wrong? I find it really hard to flip

them once they've soaked overnight. They sort of just wrikle up. Is

it maybe the fact that I'm using a non-stick pan? (I still have to get

some stainless steel ones). I'm so jealous of your good pancakes! Do

they come out nice and fluffy too?

Dawn

>

> Pancakes wrinkly? With the NT recipe?! My NT pancakes come out

*awesome*

> and everyone that's had them agrees. Can't be my fault; I just

follow the NT

> recipe.

>

> Chris

>

> " To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or

that we are

> to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

> servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. "

--Theodore Roosevelt

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/4/03 12:25:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

dawnciano@... writes:

> Ok then what the heck am I doing wrong? I find it really hard to flip

> them once they've soaked overnight. They sort of just wrikle up. Is

> it maybe the fact that I'm using a non-stick pan? (I still have to get

> some stainless steel ones). I'm so jealous of your good pancakes! Do

> they come out nice and fluffy too?

I'd invest in a griddle for any pancake/french toast making. Maybe you are

adding too much water or something, but i very much suspect you are trying to

flip them to early. how fluffy they come out depends on how much i thin them

out. they do rise fine.

chris

[Guest guest]

>Hi Heidi,

>

>

> >But when I use sorghum, I mix it with

> > kefir and just let it stand for a bit. The kefir has a lot of yeast

>in it,

> > so it actually makes the dough rise too.

>

>What do you mean by " for a bit " . You don't need to let it soak for at

>least 7 hours?

Not for cookies. I did make some sourdough bread once with kefir and let it

go overnight. But I'm dealing with sorghum, not wheat flour, and it's also

cookies, and people don't eat that many of them at a time. The kefir sits

with the flour about an hour, I think.

" Dr. Svanberg commented that in sour dough fermentation, the pH is very

important. To degrade the phytate by 96 to 97 percent, a pH of 5.0 is

needed. The yeast and lactic acid bacteria together provide this pH. "

It seems that if you use something sour, like kefir, that is also

biologically active, phytate levels go down even in a couple of hours. In

the case of my sorghum, I don't know who much " bad stuff " it has in it, but

mixing it with kefir and letting it sit seems to work well enough that it

digests well.

>When they refer to " yeast fermentation " does that mean the modern

>industrial yeast you buy at the supermarket? And for how long would

>the grains have to ferment in yeast to reduce phytates?

Most articles say " sourdough " (a mix of yeast and lactobacilli) works even

better.

About how many hours would it take to leaven something like pancakes

>with sourdough? And for bread? Would the sour leavened pancakes have

>that chewy texture or would they be more fluffy?

Kefir mixed with anything makes it fluffier and nicer, in my experience. I

don't use gluten flours though, and THAT is a whole 'nother issue. Also I

use kefiili, which has a LOT of polysaccharides in it, and polysaccharides

really affect the baking process (for the better, I think). Don't ask what

kefiili is. I'm making a writup and I'll post it.

>I hope you can answers some of my questions. As you can tell, I'm

>still learning a lot about using grains properly. It's pretty crucial

>now since I'm 4 1/2 months pregnant.

I totally understand about the pregnancy thing. I did NOT do well with my

two pregnancies, and I'm regretting it now. If I had to do it over again, I

would not eat any grains, esp. the barley-rye-wheat ones. The gluten

problem I had, translated into tooth enamel problems for them, and a

connective tissue problem for one of them. Phytates interfere with

absorption, but they don't cause birth problems, as far as I've heard. But

grains are a " new " food for humans, and really iffy on a number of levels.

If you really want to eat grains, the safest ones are gruels, whole or

cracked grains boiled in water, and oats, I think, are the best. Also very

filling, which is good, because at about 5 months you become ravenously

hungry. Baked goods of ANY kind (soaked or not) tend not to stick with you

just because the grain is so finely ground.

I dutifully ate grains because " they " said I should, and it was not good

for the kids. Mind you, they are great kids, but had I listened to my body,

I would have stuck with my normal diet (tacos, salads, fruits, and steak!).

I say -- listen you your body, and don't pay attention to what I or anyone

else says you " should " do.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> I'd invest in a griddle for any pancake/french toast making. Maybe

you are

> adding too much water or something, but i very much suspect you are

trying to

> flip them to early.

I definitely need the griddle and you're right, I am probably flipping

too early. I'm a little " impatient " <blush> sometimes! I'll try them

out again and see what happens. Thanks.

Dawn

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

Thanks for your helpful responses. I really appreciate it.

>

> It seems that if you use something sour, like kefir, that is also

> biologically active, phytate levels go down even in a couple of

hours. In

> the case of my sorghum, I don't know who much " bad stuff " it has in

it, but

> mixing it with kefir and letting it sit seems to work well enough

that it

> digests well.

I'll have to try the sorghum (if I can find it) to see how it goes. I

don't generally have a hard time digesting soaked or sprouted spelt.

Its when it's unsprouted or unsoaked that I notice it bothers me.

> Most articles say " sourdough " (a mix of yeast and lactobacilli)

works even

> better.

Hmm, never thought of that. I'll have to try it.

> I totally understand about the pregnancy thing. I did NOT do well

with my

> two pregnancies, and I'm regretting it now. If I had to do it over

again, I

> would not eat any grains, esp. the barley-rye-wheat ones. The gluten

> problem I had, translated into tooth enamel problems for them, and a

> connective tissue problem for one of them. Phytates interfere with

> absorption, but they don't cause birth problems, as far as I've

heard. But

> grains are a " new " food for humans, and really iffy on a number of

levels.

I agree. I have been trying to cut back. I guess I was a carbo

junkie and am still kicking the habit. I am trying to keep my daily

intake low. And you're right that grains are a little too new to be

properly assimilated by our organism. I found that even with dairy I

have to be careful. For instance, I seem to have no reaction to goat

milk yogurt whereas cow milk yogurt seems to make me sneeze a bit.

> If you really want to eat grains, the safest ones are gruels, whole or

> cracked grains boiled in water, and oats, I think, are the best.

Also very

> filling, which is good, because at about 5 months you become ravenously

> hungry.

Tell me about it! I've been eating like a mad woman for the past

month. I guess I was a little underweight before I got pregnant, so

my body is making up for it now. I just must have a fast metabolism

or something because even when I eat lots of fat I still stay around

118 lbs. when I'm not pregnant. Now I have gained about ten pounds

(thankfully). I also have major cravings for mussels and clams.

Guess its the iron. And I think you're right that gruels are the best

way to go during pregnancy and in general. They are much more

filling. I guess because they are less processed. They kind of sit in

your stomach longer.

> I say -- listen you your body, and don't pay attention to what I or

anyone

> else says you " should " do.

That's pretty much what I do. Thank goodness I don't listen to my

mother-in-law. She means well, but she keeps telling me that I should

be eating refined sugar! Never mind the fact that she has really bad

rheumatism probably from her poor diet.

Dawn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/5/03 5:21:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

dawnciano@... writes:

> I definitely need the griddle and you're right, I am probably flipping

> too early. I'm a little " impatient " <blush> sometimes! I'll try them

> out again and see what happens. Thanks.

Definitely do not flip them before they start to " bubble " on the top.

Generally, they should be cooked through at least half-way before flipping.

--chris

[Guest guest]

My grandmother once expressed concern that I wasn't eating enough white

bread. " You need to eat your starch, " she said.

chris

In a message dated 6/5/03 10:29:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

dawnciano@... writes:

> I don't know if she's looking for a good excuse to eat it herself or

> if she truly believes that it's somehow " good " for you. She was born

> and raised in Moscow, and some of the eating traditions they have are

> good but they seem to have been adulterated by modern foods. For

> example, they take an egg yolk and beat it together with refined sugar

> until its frothy and creamy and then eat that for breakfast. I'm all

> for the raw egg yolk, but mixed with the refined sugar, it seems

> pretty senseless. My husband refuses to do the same thing with

> Rapadura. He says it doesn't taste the same. I'm still having a hard

> time convincing him to kick the white bread and pasta habit. And just

> think that he (and his parents and other family members) think that

> cakes and cookies with milk or coffee are a healthy breakfast (as do

> most Italians - their notions on breakfast are HORRENDOUS).

>

>

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>Thanks for your helpful responses. I really appreciate it.

Thanks!

>I agree. I have been trying to cut back. I guess I was a carbo

>junkie and am still kicking the habit. I am trying to keep my daily

>intake low. And you're right that grains are a little too new to be

>properly assimilated by our organism. I found that even with dairy I

>have to be careful. For instance, I seem to have no reaction to goat

>milk yogurt whereas cow milk yogurt seems to make me sneeze a bit.

Goats have been domesticated a lot longer ... almost as long as dogs ...

I also have major cravings for mussels and clams.

>Guess its the iron. And I think you're right that gruels are the best

>way to go during pregnancy and in general. They are much more

>filling. I guess because they are less processed. They kind of sit in

>your stomach longer.

I get mussel cravings a lot still ... they DO seem to give me migraines

though so I'm not sure if the craving is really an allergic thing. There is

a lot of study that has been done on gruels -- they get a kind of gooey

coating that helps it digest in a way more beneficial to people. Also they

digest more slowly and cause less blood-sugar reaction.

>That's pretty much what I do. Thank goodness I don't listen to my

>mother-in-law. She means well, but she keeps telling me that I should

>be eating refined sugar! Never mind the fact that she has really bad

>rheumatism probably from her poor diet.

LOL! Well, the sugar lobby would agree with her ...

-- Heidi

>Dawn

[Guest guest]

>

>Do you know how much phytate levels go down when you do that?

>

>Isn't it possible to have food with high level of phytates digest

>*seemingly* well?

>

>Roman

Absolutely. My main concerns have been " what gets along with our stomach. "

I tend to find that NT prepared food " sets well " -- I have no idea exactly

how much phytate has actually been removed. I also don't know how much

phytate/tannin is in sorghum -- it varies by the breed, and I use white

sorghum, which I *think* is better.

My logic on cookies, though is:

1. The charts say a 2 hour acidic ferment of wheat gets rid of 97% of the

phytate.

2. White sorghum is probably lower in phytate than wheat flour.

3. He only eats 2 cookies a day.

When I made bread more, the best bread was when you use a tiny bit of yeast

and let it go all night long. Of course, you have to add more flour in the

AM, but THAT flour still gets about 2 hours of leavening. But you can't

really know unless you have a phytate tester! The charts also say beans

take 8 hours worth of soaking.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>. And just

>think that he (and his parents and other family members) think that

>cakes and cookies with milk or coffee are a healthy breakfast (as do

>most Italians - their notions on breakfast are HORRENDOUS).

It's no better here. At the schools they are teaching the kids the " grains

are good " and that includes grains in cookies and cakes. Poor little tykes

are eating a practically all-grain diet.

The egg-yolk-sugar thing is in an old cookbook of mine too. I think it was

pretty traditional in the US also.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>

> It's no better here. At the schools they are teaching the kids the

" grains

> are good " and that includes grains in cookies and cakes. Poor little

tykes

> are eating a practically all-grain diet.

How do they justify that? It's amazing what you can get people to

believe when you have corporate giants behind you.

>

> The egg-yolk-sugar thing is in an old cookbook of mine too. I think

it was

> pretty traditional in the US also.

It's actually pretty tasty, but I naturally wouldn't eat it with the

refined sugar

Dawn

[Guest guest]

> Goats have been domesticated a lot longer ... almost as long as dogs ...

I didn't know that. I would be great if I could find a source of raw

goat milk here in Rome. People think you're nuts when you ask about

raw milk. It's just as taboo here as it is in the States.

> I get mussel cravings a lot still ... they DO seem to give me migraines

> though so I'm not sure if the craving is really an allergic thing.

Well, I don't seem to have any problem with them, and they are SO SO

APPEALING right now. This pregnancy thing is really funny sometimes.

I used to like fennel in a salad and now it absolutely repulses me, as

does cabbage. Although the though of sauerkraut is fairly appealing.

>

> >That's pretty much what I do. Thank goodness I don't listen to my

> >mother-in-law. She means well, but she keeps telling me that I should

> >be eating refined sugar! Never mind the fact that she has really bad

> >rheumatism probably from her poor diet.

>

> LOL! Well, the sugar lobby would agree with her ...

She's convinced that only pills and medicine will help her rather than

trusting good food. It is really sad. I'd like to help her, but she

doesn't seem open to making the changes. Oh well, you can't win them all.

Dawn

[Guest guest]

> Goats have been domesticated a lot longer ... almost as long as dogs ...

>>>I didn't know that.

---->well, just to throw a wrench in...the last time i read about the

timeframe of the domestication of dogs (sometime last year), the genetics

were suggesting this potentially HUGE timeframe that no one seems to agree

on...dogs may have been domesticated as far back as 100,000 years ago (!) or

as recently as 10,000 years ago, which is in the goast domestication time

frame, i believe....

maybe the timeframe has been revised since last year, though.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>

> > It's no better here. At the schools they are teaching the kids the

> " grains

> > are good " and that includes grains in cookies and cakes. Poor little

>tykes

> > are eating a practically all-grain diet.

>

>How do they justify that? It's amazing what you can get people to

>believe when you have corporate giants behind you.

The SCHOOL justifies it because the government has published the famous

" food pyramid " which advocates a pretty much all-grain diet with a topping

of vegies, AND it does not distinguish between whole and refined grains. I

can't blame the school -- they are supposed to be " mainstream " and are

using their best information. (most teachers don't have science degrees!).

There are cultures that eat a lot of grains and have fewer problems than

our culture has, which is where the " grain " diet came about, I think. The

Asians and their rice, I think. There *is* a real conflict in the research,

it isn't *just* corporations doing their thing. Myself, I think the

conflict comes about because the epidemiological studies don't take into

account things like probiotics, or the resistant starch in the grains, or

the TYPE of grain (wheat is pretty deadly, but quinoa probably is not, for

instance).

I have to hand it to this school though. They recently had a " food fair " ,

where they took a whole field and put up tables, with one table per food

type. They did have an obligatory " grain " table, of course. But they also

had a dairy farmer there, and a guy showing the kids how to sprout seeds

(and giving away seeds to the kids). They had live cooks making pancakes,

which really weren't bad (banana pancakes) and rollups with cream cheese

(though everything was wheat based so we couldn't have any). But what

really impressed me was that they made a salad bar from A-Z -- all fruits

and vegies, fresh, lined up from Apples to Zucchini. Had some really

interesting ones too, like kiwi and quince (where did they get fresh

quince, I ask?).

One little guy I sat next to looked at his plate and said " Wow! I've never

had a blueberry before! "

Now, it'll be a long time before they have raw meat and probiotics, but

given the audience (kids who haven't seen a blueberry) they really were trying!

Also they have replaced the pop machines with milk/juice/water machines.

Again, it isn't the " good stuff " , but it is a start.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>---->well, just to throw a wrench in...the last time i read about the

>timeframe of the domestication of dogs (sometime last year), the genetics

>were suggesting this potentially HUGE timeframe that no one seems to agree

>on...dogs may have been domesticated as far back as 100,000 years ago (!) or

>as recently as 10,000 years ago, which is in the goast domestication time

>frame, i believe....

Yeah, it depends who you read. Also they are thinking that dogs were " kind

of " living with humans a long time before they were domesticated -- the

dogs would hang around the garbage pile, or the dogs would corner some prey

and then humans come in to kill it (dogs have a hard time killing large

prey, I guess).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Yeah, it depends who you read. Also they are thinking that dogs were " kind

of " living with humans a long time before they were domesticated -- the

dogs would hang around the garbage pile, or the dogs would corner some prey

and then humans come in to kill it (dogs have a hard time killing large

prey, I guess).

----->hmmm....that doesn't sound right, because dogs are domesticated grey

wolves, whose primary prey was, and is, large ungulates, including VERY

large critters like moose (and *musk oxen* for the arctic wolf). their

physiology and social structure was/is designed around hunting *large* game,

in fact. however, some *modern* dogs as we know them, may not be as skillful

at hunting large prey as their grey wolf ancestors were. at least i know my

chihuahua has difficulty even getting *noticed* by horses, cows and other

large critters we happen to pass by :-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...