Re: Tetanus, Was: Re: Aubin and others-Immunizations

[Guest guest]

>. *Tetanus

>infections do not provide future immunity to the disease.*

Interesting. If that is true, how do the vaccinations work?

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>I'll get off this soapbox now, since it's technically OT (how polite is it

>of me to

>hardly ever post here anymore and then drop in with an OT diatribe? ;-) ),

>although I think nutrition is likely the most important aspect of true

>disease

>immunity and of building strong bodies that can experience the routine

>childhood illnesses like measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, even

>whooping cough, reap the benefits, and recover fully.

>

>Aubin

Well, you see my soapbox is similar -- I think our immunity IS severely

constrained, though I'm more interested in the T1 connection with IgA

allergies. My kids have not had whooping cough, or mumps, or ear

infections, or basically anything except sinusitis, which now I'm learning

to control with a Neti pot and kefir whey. I'm always talking to parents

who say " oh, my kid is healthy " -- then go on to say how the kid had

walking pneumonia all summer. If your T1 system is " down " , then it's

basically the same as having AIDS. If you have gluten sensitivity, and eat

gluten, then you T1 system is frozen for some period of time. I'd expect

other sensitivities and chemicals do a similar thing, and likely sugar?

But exposure to a bacteria or virus DOES count. Take those chickens in

China with the virus that infected people. The farmers did not get sick.

Ditto with the bad e-coli -- it isn't the farm kids shovelling cow manure

that get it.

Anyway, according to the CDC, most cases in the developing world of tetanus

are babies and young kids, but in the US, it is mostly older people. So

maybe there is an environmental exposure immunity (older kids would be out

mucking in the dirt more, and folks over 60 likely aren't mucking around in

the dirt as much either).

http://www.cdc.gov/travel/diseases/dtp.htm

http://www.bact.wisc.edu/Bact330/lecturetetbot

Because of the widespread use of the tetanus toxoid for prophylactic

immunization, fewer than 150 cases occur annually in the U.S. (Figure 2),

but the disease is a significant problem world-wide where there are > more

than 300,000 cases annually. Most cases in the U.S occur in individuals

over age 60, which is taken to mean that waning immunity is a significant

risk factor.

---------

And the medical community also agrees with you that shots do not always

confer immunity, and that this causes mis-diagnoses:

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/tetanus.html

do not exclude a diagnosis of tetanus in a patient who has been

fully immunised.1 Their report adds to the list of rare cases of

tetanus that have occurred despite complete immunisation. Although the

authors state that all reported cases of tetanus in the United

States have occurred in people who have not been immunised, this is

not altogether true. A catalogue of the 740 tetanus cases reported by

the Centers for Disease Control since 1982 discloses that of the

minority whose immunisation status was known, 53 cases had completed a

primary series, 22 had received their latest booster between five and

nine years before, and two had received a booster within five years

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> Interesting. If that is true, how do the vaccinations work?

You take the toxoid and your body produces an antibody that is effective

against the toxin (if there is sufficient antibodies that is). Have just a

few antibodies and it isn't enough. It is my understanding that after

someone has the disease (suffers the effects of the toxin) they do not

produce the antibodies, or enough of the antibodies, to make a difference

should they run into the toxin again. Why that is, I don't know. The toxin

is described as extremely potent. The levels of antibodies drops over time.

Why? Heck if I know but they can measure those and they've found that below

a certain level the toxin will not be neutralized and a person will suffer

the effects of the disease (if the toxin becomes present in their body

again).

So you have two studied and reported occurences. 1) Below a certain level

of antibodies, you do not have immunity to the toxin, and 2) after people

have the disease of tetanus, their antibody levels are below that level.

I'm really not trying to convince anyone to get the tetanus vaccine. I got

into this discussion because someone was equating handling horse manure with

getting natural immunity and there is nothing to indicate that is possible.

With tetanus you are talking about a bacterium that is dormant in horse

manure (and elsewhere), that takes advantage of prime conditions to come out

of dormancy already *inside* your body. With tetanus disease you are

talking about a toxin showing up inside your body and traveling to your

nerves where it binds. Whereas the other things vaccines our offered for

enter first through the nose or mouth, etc, (under natural circumstances)

allowing the body to go through what I think of as it's normal protective

routine. In my mind I liken Tetanus disease to suddenly having snake poison

in your blood stream.

Again, I don't want to argue for or against natural immunity to tetanus,

although after all my reading I don't believe there is such a thing. I

simply couldn't stand by while people compared apples with oranges, and have

that misinformation passed on, and on again , most likely to people who

probably won't take the time to research it themselves.

>Usually it's the same people saying that natural immunity to tetanus

doesn't exist who say vaccination is the only protection, which doesn't

quite fly - either you can have blood-borne immunity (antibodies) or you

can't. If it can't happen naturally then how can a vaccine produce it? If

naturally encountering the bacteria won't stimulate antibody production,

encountering it via a vaccine wouldn't be any more productive. <

You are still trying to evaluate your orange with what you know about

apples. If I have snake poison in my blood stream, is one tiny bit of

antivenom going to do the trick, or do I need a sufficient amount to

neutralize ALL of the poison? Apparently, the levels of antibodies in the

blood stream are higher after encountering the toxoid than they are after

encountering the toxin. Perhaps that's because the toxoid is given in much

larger amounts than one would experience the toxin just so sufficeint

resources will be on hand to neutralize the toxin before it can bind with

nerve cells. I don't know! But I do know we're not talking about the same

thing as having antibodies to chicken pox and our bodies knowing how to

fight it when exposed to it again.

And I think the risk of tetanus is extremely low! LOL

Rhea

[Guest guest]

>So you have two studied and reported occurrences. 1) Below a certain level

of antibodies, you do not have immunity to the toxin, <

Immunity meaning the ability to neutralize all of the toxin.

Rhea

[Guest guest]

>But I do know we're not talking about the same

>thing as having antibodies to chicken pox and our bodies knowing how to

>fight it when exposed to it again.

That is interesting. I had thought the antibodies were to the bacteria, not

the toxoid, as is the case in most vaccines, which are against some virus.

ly I didn't know you could have antibodies to a toxoid. The antivenin

to rattlesnake venom, to use your example, are only given to folks after

they get bit. Though I have heard of snake handlers who get injected with

tiny amounts of venom ... so maybe they develop the same sort of immunity?

Anyway, it is an interesting line of inquiry ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

A catalogue of the 740 tetanus cases reported by

> the Centers for Disease Control since 1982 discloses that of the

> minority whose immunisation status was known, 53 cases had completed a

> primary series, 22 had received their latest booster between five and

> nine years before, and two had received a booster within five years

>

>

> -- Heidi

>

Wow, now that is scary! how's a person to know what is best???

Michele

[Guest guest]

>

> Again, I don't want to argue for or against natural immunity to tetanus,

>

> And I think the risk of tetanus is extremely low! LOL

>

> Rhea

>

Rhea,

All very interesting comments. Thanks for the book recommendation. I went

to buy.com and bought it immediately, then checked it out at the library,

hoping I hadn't jumped the gun. I love the book, even the parenting and

marriage stuff. Anyway, the one thing that hasn't been brought up much is

if one is going to decide to do the tetanus vaccine, when should they do it?

I don't feel comfortable at all giving a 2mo an injection. Why so young

anyway? I have always thought that if I was going to decide to give any

shots I would wait till they were older. How much older I don't know

exactly. If they were 17 and going to travel to a foreign country and had

to have them to go then I would do, only doing everything to boost there

immune system before the shots. There are numerous herbal preparations one

can do to get ready for shots. Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts.

Also, how many of the tetanus cases were the people eating junk all the

time, I mean food with little, if any, nutritional value ( I call it

non-food).

Michele

[Guest guest]

> if one is going to decide to do the tetanus vaccine, when should they do

it?

> I don't feel comfortable at all giving a 2mo an injection.

I'm with you. With our first child I decided, " Nothing until she's at least

two and her central nervous system has finished developing. " But at two, I

just couldn't see doing it. It became, " When she's older we'll discuss it

again, decide if she'll be vaccinated for those things *she hasn't caught on

her own already*. " Well I've tried to help my kids get chicken pox and it's

not worked. I gave up after three tries. (Though if someone called me

today with the opportunity, I would take them over to play, I'd just not

have much hope of them catching it.) My children are extremely healthy.

Back when we had a good pediatrician (in the city we then lived in) I asked

if any of the vaccinations were avaliable for application in the nose and I

was told no. That doctor btw, had seven children, the oldest working for

him in his office after school (17 or 18 yrs old) and none of his children

were ever vaccinated. The doctor left when my youngest was about 4, to

practice emergency room pediatric medicine in a major city. I do wish he

were still around, as I'd love to pick his brain about vaccines now that

mine are getting older. My oldest is only eight, but I never thought she'd

be eight and not have caught and become immune to chicken pox and measles

all on her own.

Back where we used to live, I thought tetanus was the one vaccine I'd

consider some day, but that where we lived and with our lifestyle then, the

risk was extremely low. Now we're not only on a farm with manure around,

but my kids play outside much more, and they are older, meaning the things

they think of to do, with potential for injury, are greater! LOL It's not

any one thing. I mean my daughter digs through horse manure for worms to

feed our chickens and I've not worried once about tetanus. It's the

combined lot of changes, that has me thinking about it. But it would have

to be tetanus alone, and not the one where it is combined with other

vaccines. And then, when to boost?

> Why so young anyway?

I don't know. Maybe it's to get the shots in while the kids are still being

taken in for well-baby check-ups and things. I read once that in Europe

they don't vaccinate until after two, but I've never checked into it to see

if that is true.

> I have always thought that if I was going to decide to give any shots I

would wait till they were older. How much older I don't know exactly.

I don't know either. Apparently I survived to adulthood without immunity.

: ) My parents had no idea of any vaccines or illness before I was 4, but

they knew that I didn't have any vaccines or childhood illness after 4. As

an adult I caught chicken pox, and then later, on the advice of my doctor

because I showed no antibodies and wanted to get pregnant, I had the MMR

vaccine. [in order to have the antibodies before pregnancy, NOT that the

MMR was to help me get pregnant. Ha! ; ) ]

>There are numerous herbal preparations one can do to get ready for shots.

I would love to know more about this, please.

> Also, how many of the tetanus cases were the people eating junk all the

time, I mean food with little, if any, nutritional value ( I call it

non-food).

How about " costly non-food " ? Or detrimental non-food. My son keeps

wanting me to buy him breakfast cereal and I just can't do it. I hope when

he's older he'll understand, but it may just be one of those things where

he's going to have to experience the other side and its effects before he

welcomes/wants/chooses healthy food on his own.

Rhea