Re: circumcision in traditional societies

[Guest guest]

I would not call circumcision a Christian tradition, it is solely a Jewish

custom. Europe has a mostly Christian heritage and circumcision is almost

unheard of. At least in Austria and Germany as well as Scandinavia one not even

wastes a thought of whether to mutilate a baby boy or not! What a difficult

confession it therefore was for my American husband to tell me that he was not

whole.

[Guest guest]

,

Are you implying that traditional societies didn't circumcise? I

don't know about other areas of the world, but it isn't the case in

Africa. In Kenya, IIRC, only 2 out of over 30 tribes don't

circumcise.

Circumcision is done as a rite of passage into manhood (or womanhood,

since they also cicumsise girls). If you're not circumcised, you're

not considered a man.

This is an aside, but it's an interesting story: While I was in

Kenya, they had their first democratic elections. One of the

candidates was a man in his 60s or 70s who was from one of the tribes

that didn't circumcise. From my perspective, he seemed like a

possible contender. One day I was talking to a Kenyan brother and

sister who were among the more privileged and well-educated Kenyans.

They told me that this man would never, absolutely never, be elected

as president because noone would vote for a man who was

uncircumcised. They said Kenya would be the laughing stock of Africa

if it had a " boy " for president! It didn't matter that he was an

older man; he was still considered a boy in the eyes of most

Kenyans. (I pondered how this is never an issue during US elections!)

How prevalent is male cicumcision around the world? Does anyone know

how it came to be outside of the Judeo/Christian tradition?

> There is ample writing that says the practice was

> instituted *because* it reduced pleasure for the male, not just for

> safety reasons. And we wonder why America, with a still high but

> declining percentage of circumcised boys, is the way it is. This is

> just not a pleasant way to start your life - in fact it is rather

> barbaric. I think we can take a cue from traditional societies

> here... if you don't have to cut something off, don't.

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/21/03 11:10:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SbrHaub@...

writes:

> I would not call circumcision a Christian tradition, it is solely a Jewish

> custom. Europe has a mostly Christian heritage and circumcision is almost

> unheard of. At least in Austria and Germany as well as Scandinavia one not

> even

> wastes a thought of whether to mutilate a baby boy or not! What a difficult

>

> confession it therefore was for my American husband to tell me that he was

> not

> whole.

And I'd bet during the Middle Ages circumcision wouldn't earn you too much

respect in a Christian community! Might land you on the stake at some

points.

Chris

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

[Guest guest]

wrote on Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:48 AM

<< How prevalent is male circumcision around the world? Does anyone know how it

came to be outside of the Judeo/Christian tradition?>>

well... the whole of the Moslem world circumcise their males thought hardly ever

as babies... traditionally it's been done when the boys reach 13 yrs of age

though nowadays a lot of them are 'done' earlier at about the age of 7...

similarly, in Africa where it is very wide spread, it's done as part of the

initiation into manhood/womanhood, in early to mid 'teenagehood'... in Africa

it's part of their tradition regardless of their religion...

here in the UK, the late princess was criticised for not allowing her tow

boys to be circumcised as is the norm with the royal family, the aristocracy and

upper classes...

going by numbers alone, it would seem that at least half of the male population

of this planet is circumcised!

Dedy

[Guest guest]

I am not in favor of circumcision, but it is not solely a Jewish custom. I

am pretty sure there are Moslem groups, and other societies in Africa that

do it, too. Actually, there are many traditional societies that

unfortunately ritually mutilate their members (not a pun) in some way. If

you think male circumcision is bad, look up female circumcision, which is

very common in the middle east/Africa. (And no, it is not a Jewish custom)

It's pretty nasty, so I won't describe it here.

Robin

From: SbrHaub@...

Reply-

Subject: Re: Re: circumcision in traditional societies

Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:08:44 EDT

I would not call circumcision a Christian tradition, it is solely a Jewish

custom. Europe has a mostly Christian heritage and circumcision is almost

unheard of. At least in Austria and Germany as well as Scandinavia one not

even

wastes a thought of whether to mutilate a baby boy or not! What a difficult

confession it therefore was for my American husband to tell me that he was

not

whole.

[Guest guest]

However, people in western societies do pierce their ears, wear high heels,

etc. They have worn corsets --which damage your internal organs--, burned

witches, and operated on people for " masturbatory insanity " . In the United

State, they still operate on girl babies whose genitals are " too big " .

Noone's perfect.

From: ChrisMasterjohn@...

Reply-

Subject: Re: Re: circumcision in traditional societies

Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:02:54 EDT

In a message dated 5/21/03 11:10:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

SbrHaub@...

writes:

> I would not call circumcision a Christian tradition, it is solely a

Jewish

> custom. Europe has a mostly Christian heritage and circumcision is almost

> unheard of. At least in Austria and Germany as well as Scandinavia one

not

> even

> wastes a thought of whether to mutilate a baby boy or not! What a

difficult

>

> confession it therefore was for my American husband to tell me that he

was

> not

> whole.

And I'd bet during the Middle Ages circumcision wouldn't earn you too much

respect in a Christian community! Might land you on the stake at some

points.

Chris

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we

are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know why male infant circumcision became so prevalent in

the US?

> I would not call circumcision a Christian tradition, it is solely a

Jewish

> custom. Europe has a mostly Christian heritage and circumcision is

almost

> unheard of.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/22/2003 1:49:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Dpdg@... writes:

> well... the whole of the Moslem world circumcise their males thought hardly

> ever as babies... traditionally it's been done when the boys reach 13 yrs of

> age though nowadays a lot of them are 'done' earlier at about the age of

> 7...

> similarly, in Africa where it is very wide spread, it's done as part of the

> initiation into manhood/womanhood, in early to mid 'teenagehood'... in Africa

> it's part of their tradition regardless of their religion...

>

> here in the UK, the late princess was criticised for not allowing her

> tow boys to be circumcised as is the norm with the royal family, the

> aristocracy and upper classes...

>

> going by numbers alone, it would seem that at least half of the male

> population of this planet is circumcised!

>

> Dedy

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Well, I wasn't saying it was never done, because i was familiar with

both male and female circumcision in Africa, but I believe that

worldwide it is a minority practice. But I'm not an expert on the

subject. I don't have a quote to prove this, but I am fairly certain

the practice became widespread in America in the late 1800s because

of n morality its proscriptions against pleasure. Also, I

believe that 1971 was the peak of circumcision in America. This is

probably due to a combination of demographics and questioning

parents.

I don't know if someone has already posted this link, but here's a

lot of info:

http://www.eskimo.com/~gburlin/mgm/facts.html

" Current national rates: Australia 15%(1), Canada 20%(2), the United

States 60%(3) "

And: " Globally, 20% of male children will be subjected to some form

of non-medically indicated genital mutilation. "

Cheers,

> ,

> Are you implying that traditional societies didn't circumcise? I

> don't know about other areas of the world, but it isn't the case in

> Africa. In Kenya, IIRC, only 2 out of over 30 tribes don't

> circumcise.

>

> Circumcision is done as a rite of passage into manhood (or

womanhood,

> since they also cicumsise girls). If you're not circumcised,

you're

> not considered a man.

>

> This is an aside, but it's an interesting story: While I was in

> Kenya, they had their first democratic elections. One of the

> candidates was a man in his 60s or 70s who was from one of the

tribes

> that didn't circumcise. From my perspective, he seemed like a

> possible contender. One day I was talking to a Kenyan brother and

> sister who were among the more privileged and well-educated Kenyans.

>

> They told me that this man would never, absolutely never, be

elected

> as president because noone would vote for a man who was

> uncircumcised. They said Kenya would be the laughing stock of

Africa

> if it had a " boy " for president! It didn't matter that he was an

> older man; he was still considered a boy in the eyes of most

> Kenyans. (I pondered how this is never an issue during US

elections!)

>

> How prevalent is male cicumcision around the world? Does anyone

know

> how it came to be outside of the Judeo/Christian tradition?

>

[Guest guest]

>Does anyone know why male infant circumcision became so prevalent in

>the US?

>

>

I think part of it had to do with some studies relating non-circumcision to

increases in certain types of cancer and STD's, plus a general desire to be

" cleaner " in the '50s. (same era white bread was introduced!).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/22/03 10:41:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lm324@...

writes:

> Does anyone know why male infant circumcision became so prevalent in

> the US?

No, but it is an interesting fact that circumcision is a multi-billion dollar

industry, and the SALE OF FORSKIN is a multi-million dollar industry, as it

is used in certain kind of bandages!

Chris

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt