Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Tim, If you look on the resus council web site you'll find all the information that you should need. the address is resus.org.uk if I can be of any more help please get in touch. Cheers, >From: tim.r.betts@... >Reply- > >Subject: AED Training >Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:19:55 +0000 > >Hi, > I'm looking at putting an AED training package together for our >first >aiders - especially those involved in work on our unmanned SPM's. Does >anyone have any guidance they can offer me? > > > Tim Betts > > > Platform Medic - Beryl Alpha Platform > > > ': + 44 (0) 1224 855000 ext. 3456 > > > 6: + 44 (0) 1224 855300 ext. 3734 > > > Email: tim.r.betts@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mobil North Sea Limited, Incorporated with limited liability in >Delaware, USA under > Registration No. 0619522. Registered as a branch in Scotland No. >BR000651. Registered Office: > ExxonMobil House, Ermyn Way, Leatherhead, Surrey KT22 8UX. An >ExxonMobil subsidiary > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail & pgmarket=en-gb & XAPID=32 & DI=1059 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Tim, If you go to te resuscitation council web site they have quite a lot of information on training and the use of AEDs including suggested core competencies etc. You should be able to adapt something from there. It is in my opinion a good idea to have someone else apart from the medic who can defibrillate, if only in case it is the medic who unfortunately ends up in a heap! Good luck Gareth >From: tim.r.betts@... >Reply- > >Subject: AED Training >Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:19:55 +0000 > >Hi, > I'm looking at putting an AED training package together for our >first >aiders - especially those involved in work on our unmanned SPM's. Does >anyone have any guidance they can offer me? > > > Tim Betts > > > Platform Medic - Beryl Alpha Platform > > > ': + 44 (0) 1224 855000 ext. 3456 > > > 6: + 44 (0) 1224 855300 ext. 3734 > > > Email: tim.r.betts@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mobil North Sea Limited, Incorporated with limited liability in >Delaware, USA under > Registration No. 0619522. Registered as a branch in Scotland No. >BR000651. Registered Office: > ExxonMobil House, Ermyn Way, Leatherhead, Surrey KT22 8UX. An >ExxonMobil subsidiary > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Worried what your kids see online? Protect them better with MSN 8 http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental & pgmarket=en-gb & XAPID=186 & DI=1059 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Thanks for that - will give it a go. Tim Betts Platform Medic - Beryl Alpha Platform ': + 44 (0) 1224 855000 ext. 3456 6: + 44 (0) 1224 855300 ext. 3734 Email: tim.r.betts@... Mobil North Sea Limited, Incorporated with limited liability in Delaware, USA under Registration No. 0619522. Registered as a branch in Scotland No. BR000651. Registered Office: ExxonMobil House, Ermyn Way, Leatherhead, Surrey KT22 8UX. An ExxonMobil subsidiary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Tim, The whole idea of AED's is they are simple to use especially for lay folk, I did hear of some sort of study done in the states where without instruction of anykind 12 year old kids where only marginally beaten by air sterwardeses timewise in getting the things to work. We are setting up a programme where we will be putting an AED in all our office buildings and trying to train everyone in their use in 30 minute sessions. Keep It Simple >From: tim.r.betts@... >Reply- > >Subject: Re: AED Training >Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:34:35 +0000 > > >Thanks for that - will give it a go. > > > Tim Betts > > > Platform Medic - Beryl Alpha Platform > > > ': + 44 (0) 1224 855000 ext. 3456 > > > 6: + 44 (0) 1224 855300 ext. 3734 > > > Email: tim.r.betts@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mobil North Sea Limited, Incorporated with limited liability in >Delaware, USA under > Registration No. 0619522. Registered as a branch in Scotland No. >BR000651. Registered Office: > ExxonMobil House, Ermyn Way, Leatherhead, Surrey KT22 8UX. An >ExxonMobil subsidiary > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Tim, I agree that AEDs are very simple to operate. The hard part is operating them safely at a time of great stress. They are still potentially dangerous to operators (ie if touching the patient or if there is something that is a conductor touching both the patient and operator it is possible to get an electric shock). It is also possible to get some machines to shock a sinus Tachycardia instead of a VT (especially in some of the older machines)even if the patient is conscious and talking. Also in a no shock situation and between shock cycles the operator would need to commence CPR, you do not say if you are training just the first aiders / responders or if everyone will be trained, but if they need a CPR refresher this would take time as well. Because of these and other factors combined with the inherent stress of a cardiac arrest situation, I personally would be happier with a longer period of instruction that allows more time for reinforcement, gives the operator more confidence in their skills and allows you to cover more scenarios and simple fault finding. As we all know not every arrest runs smoothly, there are hiccups, and you need to know how to address the common ones. That said I am not anti public access defibrillation, quite the opposite. I look forward to the day that all public buildings are required to have a defib on the wall just like they have to have a fire extinguisher now. That is when we will see a big leap in the number of people being saved and in the quality of life of the survivors. Good luck, Gareth >From: " paul brash " <pbrash@...> >Reply- > >Subject: Re: AED Training >Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 05:14:32 +0000 > >Tim, > >The whole idea of AED's is they are simple to use especially for lay folk, >I >did hear of some sort of study done in the states where without instruction >of anykind 12 year old kids where only marginally beaten by air >sterwardeses >timewise in getting the things to work. > >We are setting up a programme where we will be putting an AED in all our >office buildings and trying to train everyone in their use in 30 minute >sessions. Keep It Simple > _________________________________________________________________ Surf together with new Shared Browsing http://join.msn.com/?page=features/browse & pgmarket=en-gb & XAPID=74 & DI=1059 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 In a message dated 3/5/2003 1:10:29 PM Central Standard > Also in a no shock situation and between shock cycles the operator would > need to commence CPR, > I have had this very thing happen in a spontaneous arrest in an industrial setting. One AED responder got the AED, the other got the 02. They attached a NRB and the AED the leads to find no shock advised -- then they called 911. We arrived 9 minutes later (total downtime of 12 minutes) hearing the best " pt is on 02 " but fearing the worst. We found the pt in PEA with a NRB attached. I asked who had been doing CPR and got vacant stares from both. It was obvious that both these guys knew how to attach the AED, and both knew how to do CPR, They just didn't know (or think) to put the 2 together. It seemed that neither ever believed they'd have a need to take the training seriously and was all too simple to not be able to " figure it all out " if they ever did need it. They had it figured out all right, just not added up. A little continual reinforcement could have made a big difference here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Sorry and all that Gareth, why is the AED connected to a conscious casualty. Comments???? Rod Eglin > > It is also possible to get some machines to shock a sinus Tachycardia > instead of a VT (especially in some of the older machines)even if the > patient is conscious and talking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 St s have an excellent training booklet. I'll get the details for you. Tony AED Training > Hi, > I'm looking at putting an AED training package together for our first > aiders - especially those involved in work on our unmanned SPM's. Does > anyone have any guidance they can offer me? > > > Tim Betts > > > Platform Medic - Beryl Alpha Platform > > > ': + 44 (0) 1224 855000 ext. 3456 > > > 6: + 44 (0) 1224 855300 ext. 3734 > > > Email: tim.r.betts@... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mobil North Sea Limited, Incorporated with limited liability in Delaware, USA under > Registration No. 0619522. Registered as a branch in Scotland No. BR000651. Registered Office: > ExxonMobil House, Ermyn Way, Leatherhead, Surrey KT22 8UX. An ExxonMobil subsidiary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Member Information: > > List owner: Ian Sharpe Owner@... > Editor: Ross Boardman Editor@... > > Post message: egroups > Subscribe: -subscribeegroups > Unsubscribe: -unsubscribeegroups > > Thank you for supporting Remote Medics Online. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 Rod, Whilst many of the AEDs aimed at the first responder market are only to be connected to an unresponsive patient who has no signs of life. There are others which have a screen that will display an ECG to allow more advanced practitioners to use the machine for Rhythm recognition prior to / post cardiac arrest in order to guide other therapies (atropine, lidocaine etc.). So you may see an AED attached to a conscious casualty from time to time. Also with some of the older machines such as the Heart Start 3000 which were designed to allow the operator to monitor patients in many situations not just cardiac arrest; the operator following voice prompts had to manually press a button instruct the machine to analyse the rhythm (and auto charge if the machine thought it was a shockable rhythm). This was only meant to be done in the case of cardiac arrest, however if it was done in the case of a tachy of more than 180 the machine would assume that it was a VT and advise a shock even if the casualty was still conscious. It was down to operator training to be aware of this problem and ensure that the analyse button was not pressed unless the patient had arrested (and that the charge was dumped if it was pressed in error). This may seem like a piece of ancient history but many of these older machines are still in service with a wide range of organisations and have over the years had many good saves to their credit. Gareth >From: " Rod Eglin " <rodegg@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Re: AED Training >Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 21:57:49 -0000 > >Sorry and all that Gareth, why is the AED connected to a conscious >casualty. > > >Comments???? > >Rod Eglin > > > > > It is also possible to get some machines to shock a sinus Tachycardia > > instead of a VT (especially in some of the older machines)even if the > > patient is conscious and talking. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail & pgmarket=en-gb & XAPID=32 & DI=1059 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 Dear all,. I've just done the 2 day community responder course for West Country Ambulance, and our 'team' had been issued with a full AED, O2, BVM etc for treatment of cardiac arrest & other medical conditions. In the wilds of Cornwall the ambulances can be well outside the government guidelines for response times - that lead to Cornwall having the first Air Ambulance in the country as our hospitals are about 50- 60 miles away It is hoped that this scheme will also help improve survival for these patients as has been the case in other parts of the UK. Technology has moved on & whilst I would love having my Lifepack 12 at home to play with - the unit we have been given to use works under the KISS principle, it is very basic but is at the level that the other team members can understand & not be to intimidated to use it. at the end of the day - if it saves someone's life then it's worth it! Best wishes Medic Ninian Northern Platform Re: AED Training >Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 21:57:49 -0000 > >Sorry and all that Gareth, why is the AED connected to a conscious >casualty. > > >Comments???? > >Rod Eglin > > > > > It is also possible to get some machines to shock a sinus Tachycardia > > instead of a VT (especially in some of the older machines)even if the > > patient is conscious and talking. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail & pgmarket=en-gb & XAPID=32 & DI=1059 Member Information: List owner: Ian Sharpe Owner@... Editor: Ross Boardman Editor@... Post message: egroups Subscribe: -subscribeegroups Unsubscribe: -unsubscribeegroups Thank you for supporting Remote Medics Online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 Yeah, see what you mean Gareth. I was thinking about guys who were not that experienced (don't ask me why. Head up my arse at the time I think!) Rod Re: AED Training > >Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 21:57:49 -0000 > > > >Sorry and all that Gareth, why is the AED connected to a conscious > >casualty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Rod, Don't worry. In the context of first responders or public access defibrillation your initial response was quite correct and very valid. Indeed under these circumstances NOT following your line of thought could lead to potential problems as stated. When used by appropriatly trained personnel AEDs are very safe and undoubtedly save lives and improve outcomes in those that survive. The one point that I would make is that using a Defibrillator can be very stressful. I know from times spent training people on ALS courses and talking to full time RTOs (resuscitation training officers) that one of the problems when training nurses for example (and yes I am a nurse) was to give them the confidence to make the decision to implement treatment. They would be fine on the manikin but would in some cases stall when faced with it in real life. Although the AED by reason of its rhythm recognition protocols takes some of this pressure off, it is still a big decision to attach it to the patient and to move down your protocols, especially if the casualty is your friend / colleague from the same office. Having in the back of your mind that you have frequently practiced these situations not just when things go OK but when things go wrong as well (e.g. no shock indicated or defib pads do not work), and you have to think outside the rigid box to pull them back gives a sense of reassurance, and eases (slightly) the stress of the situation. (especially if the real thing is simpler than that that you trained for). The military I believe have a saying for this (and yes I am currently at the bottom of my fox hole waiting for incoming on this point): - train hard, fight easy; Train easy fight hard and die. only in this case it is our patient who does the dying. The final point ties in with the above, don't forget the first responders. I presume that you have in place medical supervision for the program and that they will be involved within 24 hours of the defib being used. Your defib operators may need help / counselling within this time however and I would make sure that you occupational health department has this ready and available. It is OK for those of us who use these skills on a regular basis to say another day another dollar. If however you only occasionally use these skills their use is a major life event. I know from the wife of a friend who worked at an airport, staff defibbed a casualty and for some reason there was a delay in follow up. The first responders went through the usual cycle of, I should have done more / that correct / should't have done that. The end result was that when they finally got to talk with someone in authority the number of staff willing to use the defib was reduced. What a shame as if they had done nothing the casualty would have probably died. as it was they gave him the best chance that they could. I would be interested to here how things progress on your scheme. Please let me know either on or off the list. Gareth - gareththomas1@... >From: " Rod Eglin " <rodegg@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Re: AED Training >Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:16:12 -0000 > >Yeah, see what you mean Gareth. I was thinking about guys who were not that >experienced (don't ask me why. Head up my arse at the time I think!) > >Rod > Re: AED Training > > >Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 21:57:49 -0000 > > > > > >Sorry and all that Gareth, why is the AED connected to a conscious > > >casualty. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://messenger.msn.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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